if u fix pvp so u cant get cc and killed before u have a chance to even enter a command this will stop, don't go screaming for the symptom to be fixed and get the real problem fixed, oh wait then ur rouge wont dominate anymore.
There definitely should be a penalty for identified bots and people who ragequit. It ruins the match for everyone else.
The initially ideal solution is to use ratings. The higher your ratings the better your rewards and AD payout for pvp participation. The lower your rating the lower the rewards. And if you ragequit or are ID'd as a bot, then your rating takes a huge hit.
The problem with ratings is there isn't a good automated measurement of how good someone is in PvP. For example, the scoring system isn't necessarily reflective of who is making a difference. My CW debuffs opp retardedly like 50% so other people can kill them instantly. Yet I get sucky scores cause other people always do the killing. You could do ratings based off wins/loses, but again, you could be awesome in PvP, but lose every match you play if one idiot on your team ragequits.
Then there are the people who quit because someone else on their team already quit or there is an afk bot on their team. If a penalty is instituted you need to ensure it's only being applied to the initial idiots and not the people quitting solely because their team is full of bots or everyone else already quit.
Yeah, an ELO system would be helpful. It is almost impossible to accurately rate pvp skill as you point out; basing it on wins/losses is likely the safest bet, but other data should be available too. An ELO system is also good because it indirectly factors in gear, which is a huge factor in these types of games. If implemented correctly it should also prevent queue times from becoming overly long (compared to a straight gear-based queue system). You still will need a penalty for leaving though, because people, being people, will abuse the freedom if they have half a chance.
No system is perfect, there is always going to be room for polish; but enormous rewards for losing, "real" currency rewards even if you lose, and a lack of a leavers penalty is a guaranteed recipe for disaster.
The devs took a good first step with stripping out rewards for losing, but it was too half-hearted. They need to finish the job by implementing a leaver penalty and only giving AD rewards if you win. Once that base is in place an ELO system will be needed (so that even noobs like me have a chance to win), with leaderboards etc added down the track.
Those measures make botting/afking virtually pointless, establish a strong game ethic, and totally encourage players to participate and play to win if they sign up for a game. There will still be problems, but it will be 100% better than the bot/afk/leaver fest that plagues the game now.
When a solid foundation is down give us an expansion with a couple of more game-types like flag running etc.
You could say the same thing for pretty much any mmo, and its often worse. Most other mmos/moba still have a leavers penalty though because the game is hardly functional without it. As a result, while NW has as you say "too many bots/afkers/leavers", mmos with a leavers penalty effectively cut out 1/3rd of the problem (leavers).
We are sick of being trolled by real players who choose to leave for any little reason. You even have whole teams dropping out- obviously not a team of bots right? The culture of the pvp game has degenerated and its largely because the game almost encourages you to leave; as many others have said, and I agree with, at the moment the right/logical choice is to leave, its pathetic.
You are again ignoring many differences. For one most Moba games last around 40-60 minutes whereas Neverwinter PvP matches usually last 10-25 minutes plus waiting times here are extremly low. Same goes for larger scale PvP from most MMOs, coming from WoW the smaller maps like WSG or AB can easily last 30 minutes and I had up to 12 hour matches in AV back in Classic WoW. More poppular MMOs filter teams and pugs better and give some reward even for the loser. They also offer several modi for more "casual" and more "serious" PvP players.
Furthermore all Moba games have custom games and game modes which are for casual gamers who do not want to bother with ranking etc.
And again you are talking beside the point. I was countering the argument that you "learn something from a loss" which is simply ignorantto claim there are many factors involved to be able to learn from a loss. To learn from a loss you have to know exactly what you have done wrong AND what you have to change. If you get camped at GY 24/7 there is nothing to learn. This argument has also nothing to do with leaver penalty at all so grats on missing the point and coming up with bad comparisons again.
No it's not pathetic to leave, what is pathetic is the current implementation of PvP with very small maps with bad flaws like only one way out from the GY.
This game needs some serious improvments about PvP system in terms of queues, GS balancing, class balancing and map design and quantity.
Until then PvP is obviously an afterthought in comparison to PvE and I see no reason to take it serious enough to warrant a leavers penalty like in WoW or LoL.
There definitely should be a penalty for identified bots and people who ragequit. It ruins the match for everyone else.
The initially ideal solution is to use ratings. The higher your ratings the better your rewards and AD payout for pvp participation. The lower your rating the lower the rewards. And if you ragequit or are ID'd as a bot, then your rating takes a huge hit.
The problem with ratings is there isn't a good automated measurement of how good someone is in PvP. For example, the scoring system isn't necessarily reflective of who is making a difference. My CW debuffs opp retardedly like 50% so other people can kill them instantly. Yet I get sucky scores cause other people always do the killing. You could do ratings based off wins/loses, but again, you could be awesome in PvP, but lose every match you play if one idiot on your team ragequits.
Then there are the people who quit because someone else on their team already quit or there is an afk bot on their team. If a penalty is instituted you need to ensure it's only being applied to the initial idiots and not the people quitting solely because their team is full of bots or everyone else already quit.
Great Idea! I would always mark everybody as bot so that they get less payout Just for the lols
And I always quit a match if someone in my team or the other team is a perma-cloaked rouge.
- All four 'teammates' zerg the closest point they can find.
- They then zerg towards 2, where the other team is waiting, and they proceed to get killed one by one, somewhere halfway 1 and 2, never reaching the platform.
- CW's go solo, DC's stay at 1, TR's all over the place and then they die.
- All manner of profanities from either side of the zone, gloating over 'leet skills'
- And when asked about strategy.. "I only need to do this 4 times a day, so FO"
I feel the 'state of the game' is pretty sad actually, even though I really want to like the game. End-game is endless reruns of the same dungeons to get the gear you need to stand somewhat of a chance in pvp, and pvp is all about the best gear and least amount of stupidity in your team... that's basically the whole game, and it's just not enough.
edit:
So yes, I find it very acceptable to quit a match where the players are deliberate ignorant and don't care about waisting anyone's time by HAMSTER into a pvp fight for the AD's.
Yeah, an ELO system would be helpful. It is almost impossible to accurately rate pvp skill as you point out; basing it on wins/losses is likely the safest bet, but other data should be available too. An ELO system is also good because it indirectly factors in gear, which is a huge factor in these types of games. If implemented correctly it should also prevent queue times from becoming overly long (compared to a straight gear-based queue system). You still will need a penalty for leaving though, because people, being people, will abuse the freedom if they have half a chance.
No system is perfect, there is always going to be room for polish; but enormous rewards for losing, "real" currency rewards even if you lose, and a lack of a leavers penalty is a guaranteed recipe for disaster.
The devs took a good first step with stripping out rewards for losing, but it was too half-hearted. They need to finish the job by implementing a leaver penalty and only giving AD rewards if you win. Once that base is in place an ELO system will be needed (so that even noobs like me have a chance to win), with leaderboards etc added down the track.
Those measures make botting/afking virtually pointless, establish a strong game ethic, and totally encourage players to participate and play to win if they sign up for a game. There will still be problems, but it will be 100% better than the bot/afk/leaver fest that plagues the game now.
When a solid foundation is down give us an expansion with a couple of more game-types like flag running etc.
Tell you what will happen. Premades will down grade gear and still gank you. Some people have no idea of how badly the basic human being will try to exploit mechanics.
For some reason tenes give less gear rating than similar enchants. Much less. So expect to see people stacking them in blues.
Then your screwed. You cant leave, you cant get rewards becuase the loser Rewards are nerfed. people wont play. Longer queues. Bigger drama.
- All four 'teammates' zerg the closest point they can find.
- They then zerg towards 2, where the other team is waiting, and they proceed to get killed one by one, somewhere halfway 1 and 2, never reaching the platform.
- CW's go solo, DC's stay at 1, TR's all over the place and then they die.
- All manner of profanities from either side of the zone, gloating over 'leet skills'
- And when asked about strategy.. "I only need to do this 4 times a day, so FO"
I feel the 'state of the game' is pretty sad actually, even though I really want to like the game. End-game is endless reruns of the same dungeons to get the gear you need to stand somewhat of a chance in pvp, and pvp is all about the best gear and least amount of stupidity in your team... that's basically the whole game, and it's just not enough.
edit:
So yes, I find it very acceptable to quit a match where the players are deliberate ignorant and don't care about waisting anyone's time by HAMSTER into a pvp fight for the AD's.
The problem with strategy is due to the very small and restricted ways on the PvP maps there is simply not much you can do. Getting 1 and 2 is a good step to victory already, trying to go around and cap 3 which is always close to the enemy GY is rarely a good idea unless you stomp or want to relieve pressure from mid. Still since respawn timer is so unpredictable (for me at least atm) you have a good chance that you get zerged down before you can cap it halfway through even.
The problem also lies into communication since I cannot read thoughts and typing is often too long or too slow to properly communicate with your team especially in battle. Preparation time is also very short so you cannot even discuss rudimentary strategy before the start unlike WoW which grants a 60 second preparation time which suffices to plan at least to a degree what you want to do and is quite often utilized.
Tell you what will happen. Premades will down grade gear and still gank you. Some people have no idea of how badly the basic human being will try to exploit mechanics.
For some reason tenes give less gear rating than similar enchants. Much less. So expect to see people stacking them in blues.
Then your screwed. You cant leave, you cant get rewards becuase the loser Rewards are nerfed. people wont play. Longer queues. Bigger drama.
It sure wont stop the bots.
That's the beauty of an ELO system, it doesn't directly take gear-score into account. To explain it simply, such systems rank players on how many wins they have and try to put players of similar rank together.
The benefit of the system with bots is that, in theory, eventually the bots would all fall to the bottom playing against themselves and new players (better for newer players than getting stomped).
Basically the system I outlined in the post you replied to is what most mmos have, with an ELO layered on top so that newer players get a chance and more experienced players get a challenge. Its nothing new, and it works much better than the leaver fest we have now.
On a side note, you should call it Elo system, not ELO, because Elo is an actual surname, not an acronym. The inventor of the Elo system was, no surprise here, Arpad Elo, an american professor of physics with hungarian roots.
On a side note, you should call it Elo system, not ELO, because Elo is an actual surname, not an acronym. The inventor of the Elo system was, no surprise here, Arpad Elo, an american professor of physics with hungarian roots.
This was very informative, thank you!
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
That's the beauty of an ELO system, it doesn't directly take gear-score into account. To explain it simply, such systems rank players on how many wins they have and try to put players of similar rank together.
The benefit of the system with bots is that, in theory, eventually the bots would all fall to the bottom playing against themselves and new players (better for newer players than getting stomped).
Basically the system I outlined in the post you replied to is what most mmos have, with an ELO layered on top so that newer players get a chance and more experienced players get a challenge. Its nothing new, and it works much better than the leaver fest we have now.
The system would not work because you are neglecting the number of players aspect.
You would essentially need tiers right? Well if you only have a few tiers then you really haven't solved anything, however; the more tiers you have the more you DIVIDE the pvp player base. The smaller the groups of players in each TIER the longer the que times become and the more often you end up playing the same players over and over.
So you can run the math. A huge majority of the player base will be "average" and have the fastest que times. Then the top tier players will have LONG que times because there are not that many who have made it to the top tier. Now these top tier players don't want to wait 20 or 30 minutes just to get one match started so they are going to purposely start throwing matches to reduce their rank into a tier where they can start to play in reasonable time frames again.
Essentially you make the whole system meaningless.
The system would not work because you are neglecting the number of players aspect.
You would essentially need tiers right? Well if you only have a few tiers then you really haven't solved anything, however; the more tiers you have the more you DIVIDE the pvp player base. The smaller the groups of players in each TIER the longer the que times become and the more often you end up playing the same players over and over.
So you can run the math. A huge majority of the player base will be "average" and have the fastest que times. Then the top tier players will have LONG que times because there are not that many who have made it to the top tier. Now these top tier players don't want to wait 20 or 30 minutes just to get one match started so they are going to purposely start throwing matches to reduce their rank into a tier where they can start to play in reasonable time frames again.
Essentially you make the whole system meaningless.
Indeed such a system could make wait times longer depending on the population, which is why I said in my previous post "If implemented correctly it should also prevent queue times from becoming overly long (compared to a straight gear-based queue system)."
To elaborate, if the queues were divided up strictly based on gear score then the community is divided amongst however many categories you have. That is likely why most mmos don't have such gear based divisions in bgs. With the ELO system it would be best to set a maximum queue time, say 4mins, where the system looks to match similarly ranked players, but if it can't it draws from players of different ranks to fill the team. In a very small population this wouldn't work well, I don't know the population of the pvp playerbase so it might well be unfeasible.
Personally I prefer gear-equalized pvp and separate queues for premades and pugs, that is what I like about GW2- if I pug I play hotjoin, if I have a premade I do tourneys and the gear is of course equalized (and if I think one class is OP I can easily play it and realize I am likely just being a ****).
However, this is a gear-grind based game with the person in the best gear having an enormous advantage. So given what the game is (and I think the pvp in NW is great, pre-60 the classes are balanced and the game plays out well and is highly skill based), I think a leavers penalty is essential, and an ELO system to try and even out the games without creating extended waiting times is a good idea.
For me the ideal would be to have just two queues- one for green up to tier 1 pvp gear with no enchants and one queue as a free for all (or just put everyone in equalized gear when they entered pvp).
Personally I prefer gear-equalized pvp and separate queues for premades and pugs, that is what I like about GW2- if I pug I play hotjoin, if I have a premade I do tourneys and the gear is of course equalized (and if I think one class is OP I can easily play it and realize I am likely just being a ****).
I totally disagree with the OP for the following reasons:
A) Bots ruin most rounds, I leave when my team is 2 or more bots.
Enchants ruin end game pvp, I have a level 39 which will go no further. This would not be possible unless they remove the XP rewards from PvP. Which I would be happy with since I get no glory for leaving early. I leave at 950points every round.
C) Gearscores would have to be handled in a special way before that type of system would work. "Max QL ever equipped per slot score" so people cannot exploit it to get in to lower GS rounds with higher QL gear other than perhaps one time if they are weird that way and buy a ton of gear and put it all on at once.
D) Lack of refilling team mates. This one is a P.I.T.A. in both PVP and PVE. Once one player drops you get no replacements. That means staying around in either pve or pvp once someone leaves the team for any reason, D/C or just rage quit, penalizes you not them.
E) Premades vs Pugs. This has to be fixed because there is no way in hell I am going to queue for a pug knowing I can't leave if I get matched up vs a good premade. This is nonsense and should never happen.
I could go on but I think these 5 reasons should suffice to say.. fix the real problems and just forget all about the stupid notion of leaver penalties. They never work in any game. They just ruin things for others.
Indeed such a system could make wait times longer depending on the population, which is why I said in my previous post "If implemented correctly it should also prevent queue times from becoming overly long (compared to a straight gear-based queue system)."
To elaborate, if the queues were divided up strictly based on gear score then the community is divided amongst however many categories you have. That is likely why most mmos don't have such gear based divisions in bgs. With the ELO system it would be best to set a maximum queue time, say 4mins, where the system looks to match similarly ranked players, but if it can't it draws from players of different ranks to fill the team. In a very small population this wouldn't work well, I don't know the population of the pvp playerbase so it might well be unfeasible.
Personally I prefer gear-equalized pvp and separate queues for premades and pugs, that is what I like about GW2- if I pug I play hotjoin, if I have a premade I do tourneys and the gear is of course equalized (and if I think one class is OP I can easily play it and realize I am likely just being a ****).
However, this is a gear-grind based game with the person in the best gear having an enormous advantage. So given what the game is (and I think the pvp in NW is great, pre-60 the classes are balanced and the game plays out well and is highly skill based), I think a leavers penalty is essential, and an ELO system to try and even out the games without creating extended waiting times is a good idea.
For me the ideal would be to have just two queues- one for green up to tier 1 pvp gear with no enchants and one queue as a free for all (or just put everyone in equalized gear when they entered pvp).
I understand your ideas and they are a decent method but really what difference is there between doing tiers for gs and just removing GS as a factor all together? Think about it for a second. If every player going into pvp where it completely ignored all the gear you were wearing and every class had a basic pvp standard then wouldn't you solve all this TIER for gear and balances? You wouldn't divide the pvp player base because all pvpers would essentially be the same.
If you so no, that would suck, then I have to argue that placing players of "similar" gs with each other is no different than just taking all their gear away from them. The math is the same. If everyone is wearing 10s then it is the same as if everyone is wearing 1s.
But lets face it, just as you pointed out. This game is a gearfest so removing gear in pvp is silly, not to mention they went through all the trouble to implement tier 2 pvp sets. But what you are offering for a solution is really no different than removing GS all together.
The reason some players strive to improve their gear is so they can get an edge over the competition, if you remove this ability then you essentially remove the incentive to improve your gear. If you just put HAMSTER enchants into your gear and only play players with other HAMSTER enchants then what incentive do you have to put better enchants in? None. You could argue that you would want to for pve, but we aren't talking about pve.
ok. I have to say this. First.
Here is the scenario. You have 3 nodes. Five five people one team. five people another team.
Nodes 1, 2, and 3.
Quite often, teams go one man to the back, 4 to center, with one that will rush to enemy back node.
Or there is another scenario, where none to the back, and 5 to center, slaughter in what is an unfair fiht, then send one back to the node, and the others zerg the back. The most important thing is.. that center at the first. You dominate there, you literally force the opposing team on the defensive. Especially with respawn times / etc.
Now, there is team members that play to compete, and know this, and follow this, and fight, and then there are the rest of the people, usually whiners and pathetic pieces of waste that crowd the back node. This forces the people at the middle, to fight a fight no matter what, against them. In other words, those pugs are NOT on the team, they are helping the opponents team.
I will insult them badly, and then leave the party.
The reason being, is the people that supposed to be my teammates, are HAMSTER me over.
And then there are the bots. If I find out one member of my team is a bot, yes I will leave them. There are probably a hundred or so running around in level 60 pvp, and many more leveling up.
Leaving the matches is our one way of getting rid of idiots in pvp, and bots. That's to the cryptic idiots.
2. There is another time I will leave the match. I am often the one to rush to opponents node, when there is only 2 to the center or something, because I except my 3 people there to handle 2 enemies. Or 4 of all five of us go to mid first. I will suicide if I have to on their back node, fighting 3 people (sometimes getting one, many times not, and never getting the node in a 3v1 against me) just to see my team win, and run iover the opponents team.
Well guess what, I have had parties that have LOST that 4v2. and having faced those 2, wonder why.
I look at my party members and I see blues / greens. And I think really?
I look at others, and see them not even dodging, and its only that they are talking / responding on party channel that I know they aren't bots (and yes these are mages, clerics) etc.
I get so disgusted with these people, because they wont even try. They are just there, and only bodies, and cant do anything, that I will leave them also.
I have left matches, where we were winning, just because I was so disgusted with my party, I know the only reason we are winning, is because I keep sacrificing myself at their back node, just so my party might.. and only might handle themselves.
I am not here to hold you peoples hands.
And don't say I am a pay to win person, im not. I am a f2p player with a set that costed me 350k ad only. (coalescent ward I got from praying).
So don't tell me its hard. Don't tell me its impossible.
The people quitting on you, are probably doing it for reasons you didn't post.
One of those reasons is you. Because of how bad of a player you are / the things you are doing.
Or 2. Their party got completely ran over, for doing things like rushing the BACK node, They have gotten 0 points, and cant get any. There is no reason for staying, because they get 0 rewards.
get better. Learn. Be on your team, and not the opponents team.
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derpaderpistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I understand your ideas and they are a decent method but really what difference is there between doing tiers for gs and just removing GS as a factor all together? Think about it for a second. If every player going into pvp where it completely ignored all the gear you were wearing and every class had a basic pvp standard then wouldn't you solve all this TIER for gear and balances? You wouldn't divide the pvp player base because all pvpers would essentially be the same.
If you so no, that would suck, then I have to argue that placing players of "similar" gs with each other is no different than just taking all their gear away from them. The math is the same. If everyone is wearing 10s then it is the same as if everyone is wearing 1s.
But lets face it, just as you pointed out. This game is a gearfest so removing gear in pvp is silly, not to mention they went through all the trouble to implement tier 2 pvp sets. But what you are offering for a solution is really no different than removing GS all together.
The reason some players strive to improve their gear is so they can get an edge over the competition, if you remove this ability then you essentially remove the incentive to improve your gear. If you just put HAMSTER enchants into your gear and only play players with other HAMSTER enchants then what incentive do you have to put better enchants in? None. You could argue that you would want to for pve, but we aren't talking about pve.
I was hoping that no one would notice that and we could get broad community support for some nice equalized pvp to make the most of the action combat system in the game, while also giving rpgers a sense of "wow I got some new shinies and am getting real strong!".
There is also that epeen element though- then you could say "Kneel before me peasants I am ranked 10 in NW pvp mwahahahaha!" Hopefully they could link the rankings to getting an entourage of slave girls (no dwarves please!) etc; sky's the limit.
I was hoping that no one would notice that and we could get broad community support for some nice equalized pvp to make the most of the action combat system in the game, while also giving rpgers a sense of "wow I got some new shinies and am getting real strong!".
There is also that epeen element though- then you could say "Kneel before me peasants I am ranked 10 in NW pvp mwahahahaha!" Hopefully they could link the rankings to getting an entourage of slave girls (no dwarves please!) etc; sky's the limit.
Ranking systems are fine. Sure it would be a nice addition, but not until pvp problems are dealt with first. There needs to be more distinct measure of "accomplishments" in pvp. If they design it purely off score it isn't very accurate to the ability of the player. Some classes can get high scores as the current system works but they can be lousy pvpers. When you get 300 points for capping and some classes camp tower nodes it is easy for them to get points. I see it a lot.
What has to be done is a rework of the scoring system based on class input and the ability of the player to perform well in their class. For example a healer gets points for healing or preventing deaths. Doing scores based on kill counts will become very difficult for clerics so they would quickly drop to the bottom of the ranks purely because the scoring system is biased.
You also can't really compare a rogue to a wizard as far as death/kill ratio. They perform differently and if you lump them into the same ranking system it will quickly show that they are not comparable. If they use the current scoring system, you would actually see more CWs at the top of the ranks, than you would see rogues.
well i get sick of people cheating, its not cause they can beat me, hell if someone can beat me good on them and i dont care about losing unless theres cheaters in the other team...i can accept lag explains some things....but then theres the other things like control wiz with stealth or the ability to heal their team, or any other class for that matter...i only whine ( and loudly alot) if this sort of thing is happening...nothing worse than being pushed off the circle by an invisible GF, I do however report every single suspect player even if they are on my team because i am that much against cheating.
i do think tho that there needs to be something to stop the people who quit 5 mins into pvp cause they cant handle it...hell i had one guy quit a team cause we lost our base...even tho we were still in the lead...we ended up wining without him.. i still dont understand how stupid pvp is scored or why i hardly ever get my kills...or how the losing team can win on points, sometimes you think its scored one way then you have a similar battle next time and the points are earned by dying ....i've had times i get no 1 in kills and assists but i'm at the bottom of the list...i also make sure i stay in circles as much as possible as sometimes this seems to effect the score then sometimes it doesn't...i just dont get it...i dont think any one class is op, they all have strengths and weaknesses it helps if you play them all so you know what to go for when trying to kill the others
Hey everyone,
I wanted to take a sec and say thanks for the great feedback, suggestions, and ideas. We are working on issues like this for PvP internally and hope to have some good solutions rolled out in a future update.
There are Bots and tons of incredible noobs. Leaving is the only option if you dont want to waste your time. With a leaver penality everyone will be just running around the spawn point.
There should be a benfit for fighting even if the whole team is very bad - instead of a penality.
What would you do if 3 of 5 players are not able to use a horse? 1 is AFK and the last one is a bot. Staying there ist not an option!
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
i also make sure i stay in circles as much as possible as sometimes this seems to effect the score then sometimes it doesn't...i just dont get it...i dont think any one class is op, they all have strengths and weaknesses it helps if you play them all so you know what to go for when trying to kill the others
Kills don't really matter for the score.
You get points by capping; not by keeping the cap.
Technically, I assist, but it's really all about capping. Doesn't matter how many times I die.
All posters which want a penalety for leaving are just aiming on easy kills.
As a support specced DC I heavily rely on the support of my group. I get killed repeatedly because my team mates running around drooling for kill instead of protecting me, I leave.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Hey everyone,
I wanted to take a sec and say thanks for the great feedback, suggestions, and ideas. We are working on issues like this for PvP internally and hope to have some good solutions rolled out in a future update.
All posters which want a penalety for leaving are just aiming on easy kills.
As a support specced DC I heavily rely on the support of my group. I get killed repeatedly because my team mates running around drooling for kill instead of protecting me, I leave.
I'm not seeing why you believe this?
I want a penalty for leaving so people don't leave at the first sign of the team losing. Based on what you are saying penalties for leaving oul probably help you since many players will often quit if they see somebody die repeatedly so if players had to give you a decent shot you might end up winning more games.
Right now players are leaving games they feel will result in a loss which simply outright sentences the team to a loss rather than it being a possibility to lose. Nobody wins in situations like this.
If you start a PvP match you should finish. If you leave at the very least there is absolutely no reason you should be able to queue again while the battle you left still rages. It's actually the exact opposite as wanting easy kills, we want matches which aren't forfeited right away by players quitting.
As a support specced DC I heavily rely on the support of my group. I get killed repeatedly because my team mates running around drooling for kill instead of protecting me, I leave.
The problem I see is that there is just no good way to communicate with teammembers. Going to chat takes you out of battle, it takes longer if the channel isn't set right, and one wrong move of the mouse and you can do it all over again. Voice chat is just bugged like all hells, people sound like being exorcised at times.
If it were better, I'd be a lot more willing to try and coordinate. Pre-mades do this very well, most likely because they are using a 3rd party comm.app.
Comments
Yeah, an ELO system would be helpful. It is almost impossible to accurately rate pvp skill as you point out; basing it on wins/losses is likely the safest bet, but other data should be available too. An ELO system is also good because it indirectly factors in gear, which is a huge factor in these types of games. If implemented correctly it should also prevent queue times from becoming overly long (compared to a straight gear-based queue system). You still will need a penalty for leaving though, because people, being people, will abuse the freedom if they have half a chance.
No system is perfect, there is always going to be room for polish; but enormous rewards for losing, "real" currency rewards even if you lose, and a lack of a leavers penalty is a guaranteed recipe for disaster.
The devs took a good first step with stripping out rewards for losing, but it was too half-hearted. They need to finish the job by implementing a leaver penalty and only giving AD rewards if you win. Once that base is in place an ELO system will be needed (so that even noobs like me have a chance to win), with leaderboards etc added down the track.
Those measures make botting/afking virtually pointless, establish a strong game ethic, and totally encourage players to participate and play to win if they sign up for a game. There will still be problems, but it will be 100% better than the bot/afk/leaver fest that plagues the game now.
When a solid foundation is down give us an expansion with a couple of more game-types like flag running etc.
You are again ignoring many differences. For one most Moba games last around 40-60 minutes whereas Neverwinter PvP matches usually last 10-25 minutes plus waiting times here are extremly low. Same goes for larger scale PvP from most MMOs, coming from WoW the smaller maps like WSG or AB can easily last 30 minutes and I had up to 12 hour matches in AV back in Classic WoW. More poppular MMOs filter teams and pugs better and give some reward even for the loser. They also offer several modi for more "casual" and more "serious" PvP players.
Furthermore all Moba games have custom games and game modes which are for casual gamers who do not want to bother with ranking etc.
And again you are talking beside the point. I was countering the argument that you "learn something from a loss" which is simply ignorantto claim there are many factors involved to be able to learn from a loss. To learn from a loss you have to know exactly what you have done wrong AND what you have to change. If you get camped at GY 24/7 there is nothing to learn. This argument has also nothing to do with leaver penalty at all so grats on missing the point and coming up with bad comparisons again.
No it's not pathetic to leave, what is pathetic is the current implementation of PvP with very small maps with bad flaws like only one way out from the GY.
This game needs some serious improvments about PvP system in terms of queues, GS balancing, class balancing and map design and quantity.
Until then PvP is obviously an afterthought in comparison to PvE and I see no reason to take it serious enough to warrant a leavers penalty like in WoW or LoL.
Great Idea! I would always mark everybody as bot so that they get less payout
And I always quit a match if someone in my team or the other team is a perma-cloaked rouge.
- All four 'teammates' zerg the closest point they can find.
- They then zerg towards 2, where the other team is waiting, and they proceed to get killed one by one, somewhere halfway 1 and 2, never reaching the platform.
- CW's go solo, DC's stay at 1, TR's all over the place and then they die.
- All manner of profanities from either side of the zone, gloating over 'leet skills'
- And when asked about strategy.. "I only need to do this 4 times a day, so FO"
I feel the 'state of the game' is pretty sad actually, even though I really want to like the game. End-game is endless reruns of the same dungeons to get the gear you need to stand somewhat of a chance in pvp, and pvp is all about the best gear and least amount of stupidity in your team... that's basically the whole game, and it's just not enough.
edit:
So yes, I find it very acceptable to quit a match where the players are deliberate ignorant and don't care about waisting anyone's time by HAMSTER into a pvp fight for the AD's.
Tell you what will happen. Premades will down grade gear and still gank you. Some people have no idea of how badly the basic human being will try to exploit mechanics.
For some reason tenes give less gear rating than similar enchants. Much less. So expect to see people stacking them in blues.
Then your screwed. You cant leave, you cant get rewards becuase the loser Rewards are nerfed. people wont play. Longer queues. Bigger drama.
It sure wont stop the bots.
The problem with strategy is due to the very small and restricted ways on the PvP maps there is simply not much you can do. Getting 1 and 2 is a good step to victory already, trying to go around and cap 3 which is always close to the enemy GY is rarely a good idea unless you stomp or want to relieve pressure from mid. Still since respawn timer is so unpredictable (for me at least atm) you have a good chance that you get zerged down before you can cap it halfway through even.
The problem also lies into communication since I cannot read thoughts and typing is often too long or too slow to properly communicate with your team especially in battle. Preparation time is also very short so you cannot even discuss rudimentary strategy before the start unlike WoW which grants a 60 second preparation time which suffices to plan at least to a degree what you want to do and is quite often utilized.
That's the beauty of an ELO system, it doesn't directly take gear-score into account. To explain it simply, such systems rank players on how many wins they have and try to put players of similar rank together.
The benefit of the system with bots is that, in theory, eventually the bots would all fall to the bottom playing against themselves and new players (better for newer players than getting stomped).
Basically the system I outlined in the post you replied to is what most mmos have, with an ELO layered on top so that newer players get a chance and more experienced players get a challenge. Its nothing new, and it works much better than the leaver fest we have now.
This was very informative, thank you!
The system would not work because you are neglecting the number of players aspect.
You would essentially need tiers right? Well if you only have a few tiers then you really haven't solved anything, however; the more tiers you have the more you DIVIDE the pvp player base. The smaller the groups of players in each TIER the longer the que times become and the more often you end up playing the same players over and over.
So you can run the math. A huge majority of the player base will be "average" and have the fastest que times. Then the top tier players will have LONG que times because there are not that many who have made it to the top tier. Now these top tier players don't want to wait 20 or 30 minutes just to get one match started so they are going to purposely start throwing matches to reduce their rank into a tier where they can start to play in reasonable time frames again.
Essentially you make the whole system meaningless.
In realz lifez?!
Indeed such a system could make wait times longer depending on the population, which is why I said in my previous post "If implemented correctly it should also prevent queue times from becoming overly long (compared to a straight gear-based queue system)."
To elaborate, if the queues were divided up strictly based on gear score then the community is divided amongst however many categories you have. That is likely why most mmos don't have such gear based divisions in bgs. With the ELO system it would be best to set a maximum queue time, say 4mins, where the system looks to match similarly ranked players, but if it can't it draws from players of different ranks to fill the team. In a very small population this wouldn't work well, I don't know the population of the pvp playerbase so it might well be unfeasible.
Personally I prefer gear-equalized pvp and separate queues for premades and pugs, that is what I like about GW2- if I pug I play hotjoin, if I have a premade I do tourneys and the gear is of course equalized (and if I think one class is OP I can easily play it and realize I am likely just being a ****).
However, this is a gear-grind based game with the person in the best gear having an enormous advantage. So given what the game is (and I think the pvp in NW is great, pre-60 the classes are balanced and the game plays out well and is highly skill based), I think a leavers penalty is essential, and an ELO system to try and even out the games without creating extended waiting times is a good idea.
For me the ideal would be to have just two queues- one for green up to tier 1 pvp gear with no enchants and one queue as a free for all (or just put everyone in equalized gear when they entered pvp).
Something I can agree with you at least.
A) Bots ruin most rounds, I leave when my team is 2 or more bots.
C) Gearscores would have to be handled in a special way before that type of system would work. "Max QL ever equipped per slot score" so people cannot exploit it to get in to lower GS rounds with higher QL gear other than perhaps one time if they are weird that way and buy a ton of gear and put it all on at once.
D) Lack of refilling team mates. This one is a P.I.T.A. in both PVP and PVE. Once one player drops you get no replacements. That means staying around in either pve or pvp once someone leaves the team for any reason, D/C or just rage quit, penalizes you not them.
E) Premades vs Pugs. This has to be fixed because there is no way in hell I am going to queue for a pug knowing I can't leave if I get matched up vs a good premade. This is nonsense and should never happen.
I could go on but I think these 5 reasons should suffice to say.. fix the real problems and just forget all about the stupid notion of leaver penalties. They never work in any game. They just ruin things for others.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
I understand your ideas and they are a decent method but really what difference is there between doing tiers for gs and just removing GS as a factor all together? Think about it for a second. If every player going into pvp where it completely ignored all the gear you were wearing and every class had a basic pvp standard then wouldn't you solve all this TIER for gear and balances? You wouldn't divide the pvp player base because all pvpers would essentially be the same.
If you so no, that would suck, then I have to argue that placing players of "similar" gs with each other is no different than just taking all their gear away from them. The math is the same. If everyone is wearing 10s then it is the same as if everyone is wearing 1s.
But lets face it, just as you pointed out. This game is a gearfest so removing gear in pvp is silly, not to mention they went through all the trouble to implement tier 2 pvp sets. But what you are offering for a solution is really no different than removing GS all together.
The reason some players strive to improve their gear is so they can get an edge over the competition, if you remove this ability then you essentially remove the incentive to improve your gear. If you just put HAMSTER enchants into your gear and only play players with other HAMSTER enchants then what incentive do you have to put better enchants in? None. You could argue that you would want to for pve, but we aren't talking about pve.
Here is the scenario. You have 3 nodes. Five five people one team. five people another team.
Nodes 1, 2, and 3.
Quite often, teams go one man to the back, 4 to center, with one that will rush to enemy back node.
Or there is another scenario, where none to the back, and 5 to center, slaughter in what is an unfair fiht, then send one back to the node, and the others zerg the back. The most important thing is.. that center at the first. You dominate there, you literally force the opposing team on the defensive. Especially with respawn times / etc.
Now, there is team members that play to compete, and know this, and follow this, and fight, and then there are the rest of the people, usually whiners and pathetic pieces of waste that crowd the back node. This forces the people at the middle, to fight a fight no matter what, against them. In other words, those pugs are NOT on the team, they are helping the opponents team.
I will insult them badly, and then leave the party.
The reason being, is the people that supposed to be my teammates, are HAMSTER me over.
And then there are the bots. If I find out one member of my team is a bot, yes I will leave them. There are probably a hundred or so running around in level 60 pvp, and many more leveling up.
Leaving the matches is our one way of getting rid of idiots in pvp, and bots. That's to the cryptic idiots.
2. There is another time I will leave the match. I am often the one to rush to opponents node, when there is only 2 to the center or something, because I except my 3 people there to handle 2 enemies. Or 4 of all five of us go to mid first. I will suicide if I have to on their back node, fighting 3 people (sometimes getting one, many times not, and never getting the node in a 3v1 against me) just to see my team win, and run iover the opponents team.
Well guess what, I have had parties that have LOST that 4v2. and having faced those 2, wonder why.
I look at my party members and I see blues / greens. And I think really?
I look at others, and see them not even dodging, and its only that they are talking / responding on party channel that I know they aren't bots (and yes these are mages, clerics) etc.
I get so disgusted with these people, because they wont even try. They are just there, and only bodies, and cant do anything, that I will leave them also.
I have left matches, where we were winning, just because I was so disgusted with my party, I know the only reason we are winning, is because I keep sacrificing myself at their back node, just so my party might.. and only might handle themselves.
I am not here to hold you peoples hands.
And don't say I am a pay to win person, im not. I am a f2p player with a set that costed me 350k ad only. (coalescent ward I got from praying).
So don't tell me its hard. Don't tell me its impossible.
The people quitting on you, are probably doing it for reasons you didn't post.
One of those reasons is you. Because of how bad of a player you are / the things you are doing.
Or 2. Their party got completely ran over, for doing things like rushing the BACK node, They have gotten 0 points, and cant get any. There is no reason for staying, because they get 0 rewards.
get better. Learn. Be on your team, and not the opponents team.
loooooooooooooooooool wat hell no .
I was hoping that no one would notice that and we could get broad community support for some nice equalized pvp to make the most of the action combat system in the game, while also giving rpgers a sense of "wow I got some new shinies and am getting real strong!".
There is also that epeen element though- then you could say "Kneel before me peasants I am ranked 10 in NW pvp mwahahahaha!" Hopefully they could link the rankings to getting an entourage of slave girls (no dwarves please!) etc; sky's the limit.
Ranking systems are fine. Sure it would be a nice addition, but not until pvp problems are dealt with first. There needs to be more distinct measure of "accomplishments" in pvp. If they design it purely off score it isn't very accurate to the ability of the player. Some classes can get high scores as the current system works but they can be lousy pvpers. When you get 300 points for capping and some classes camp tower nodes it is easy for them to get points. I see it a lot.
What has to be done is a rework of the scoring system based on class input and the ability of the player to perform well in their class. For example a healer gets points for healing or preventing deaths. Doing scores based on kill counts will become very difficult for clerics so they would quickly drop to the bottom of the ranks purely because the scoring system is biased.
You also can't really compare a rogue to a wizard as far as death/kill ratio. They perform differently and if you lump them into the same ranking system it will quickly show that they are not comparable. If they use the current scoring system, you would actually see more CWs at the top of the ranks, than you would see rogues.
i do think tho that there needs to be something to stop the people who quit 5 mins into pvp cause they cant handle it...hell i had one guy quit a team cause we lost our base...even tho we were still in the lead...we ended up wining without him.. i still dont understand how stupid pvp is scored or why i hardly ever get my kills...or how the losing team can win on points, sometimes you think its scored one way then you have a similar battle next time and the points are earned by dying ....i've had times i get no 1 in kills and assists but i'm at the bottom of the list...i also make sure i stay in circles as much as possible as sometimes this seems to effect the score then sometimes it doesn't...i just dont get it...i dont think any one class is op, they all have strengths and weaknesses it helps if you play them all so you know what to go for when trying to kill the others
I wanted to take a sec and say thanks for the great feedback, suggestions, and ideas. We are working on issues like this for PvP internally and hope to have some good solutions rolled out in a future update.
-Zeke
There are Bots and tons of incredible noobs. Leaving is the only option if you dont want to waste your time. With a leaver penality everyone will be just running around the spawn point.
There should be a benfit for fighting even if the whole team is very bad - instead of a penality.
What would you do if 3 of 5 players are not able to use a horse? 1 is AFK and the last one is a bot. Staying there ist not an option!
And here is the reason:
You get points by capping; not by keeping the cap.
Technically, I assist, but it's really all about capping. Doesn't matter how many times I die.
waste of time
As a support specced DC I heavily rely on the support of my group. I get killed repeatedly because my team mates running around drooling for kill instead of protecting me, I leave.
Thanks Zeke!
I can't wait to see the changes.
I'm not seeing why you believe this?
I want a penalty for leaving so people don't leave at the first sign of the team losing. Based on what you are saying penalties for leaving oul probably help you since many players will often quit if they see somebody die repeatedly so if players had to give you a decent shot you might end up winning more games.
Right now players are leaving games they feel will result in a loss which simply outright sentences the team to a loss rather than it being a possibility to lose. Nobody wins in situations like this.
If you start a PvP match you should finish. If you leave at the very least there is absolutely no reason you should be able to queue again while the battle you left still rages. It's actually the exact opposite as wanting easy kills, we want matches which aren't forfeited right away by players quitting.
The problem I see is that there is just no good way to communicate with teammembers. Going to chat takes you out of battle, it takes longer if the channel isn't set right, and one wrong move of the mouse and you can do it all over again. Voice chat is just bugged like all hells, people sound like being exorcised at times.
If it were better, I'd be a lot more willing to try and coordinate. Pre-mades do this very well, most likely because they are using a 3rd party comm.app.