When a TR receives dmg they lose stealth bar a couple hits and they are out of stealth.
How can you do dmg to something you can't see?
1. AoE dmg
-Equip an AoE Skill
2. Reflect dmg (Armor Enchant & Skills)
-Swap your Chest that's socketed with Soul to one that's socketed with Briartwine
-GF Knights Valor + Supremacy of Steel
3. Direct dmg
Those are the silliest suggestions ever other than Direct Dmg, which I do with Frontline Surge or Bulls Rush if I guess where they are/will be.
I'm not going to get rid of those core abilities that are paramount to my crowd control and killing potential, so that I can maybe knock a rogue out of stealth after they have already demolished my health in 2-3 seconds.
Briartwine is only good for GWF atm. It's absolutely useless for everyone else. I'm not swapping 4 seconds of invulnerability for that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Suggestions 1 - 2 are totally impractical. Try again.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
If a TR slotted Tenacious concealment, it's not going to do anything since it reduces stealth loss from incoming damage by 90%.
Seriously think before you type something. You contradict yourself in the same sentence.
"It's not going to do anything since it reduces incoming dmg by 90%" Then it's still doing 10% which is something and better than nothing. Also I think it has an animation that goes towards the location of the player when it procs. So you can follow the animation and see the location of the player.
Seriously think before you type something. You contradict yourself in the same sentence.
"It's not going to do anything since it reduces incoming dmg by 90%" Then it's still doing 10% which is something and better than nothing. Also I think it has an animation that goes towards the location of the player when it procs. So you can follow the animation and see the location of the player.
That 10% is nothing to a true INT perma-stealth, it might as well be nothing since their stealth lasts significantly longer than by default.
tank GF is the most OP for me my build is high def and HP tactician path no tene and only rank5 enchants
GWF and TR i kill them with reflect using their own damage
tr is my fav enemy most of the tr duelist assaulter dont think just 2 duelist assault with reflect on and they will die
for GWF reduce their HP first if they use temporary health buffs use reflect and watch them die if you dont have daily just hit n run them
You mean 3% reflect from Guarded Assault and/or up to 4% from Briartwine armor enchantment? By itself that damage is inconsequential - are you talking about some other reflect like Supremacy of Steel?
You mean 3% reflect from Guarded Assault and/or up to 4% from Briartwine armor enchantment? By itself that damage is inconsequential - are you talking about some other reflect like Supremacy of Steel?
supremacy of steel
their choices
1. hit you
2. run while you kill them
their choices
1. hit you
2. run while you kill them
I often use Supremacy of Steel to counter perma-stealth builds and used to use it against GWFs. However, there's a few reasons it doesn't work against good GWFs:
1. The damage it reflects appears to be based on their weapon damage. I think the max damage reflected I've seen was 899. I've used it on many GWFs and it only helps kill the under-specced ones.
2. They regen/heal too fast for it to make a difference. Two players attacking a GWF > 1 player + Supremacy, and two players often cannot take one GWF down.
3. Supremacy is a daily and won't often be available.
4. Tenes ignore defense and GWFs often can do 7k+ damage from one set of procs (not including all the other damage they are doing at the same time).
5. They can simply wait out the Supremacy, and there's no way you're going to even have a chance to kill them without the added extra damage (they've done this against me as well).
Most "OP" in terms of survivability and damage potential.
' | '
1) GWF <- Still were the best pre-gwf buff patch.
2) TR
3) GF
4) CW
5) DC
' | '
Least "OP" in terms of survivability and damage potential.
If you do not agree with this order then you are either in denial or clueless as to what is happening in real high level pvp.
Thanks.
edit: Notice how I put "OP" in quotations, its a very loose term. In this game and probably MMO's in general, there are usually only a few things that are truly overpowered. For the most part though, you just need to talk about how well a class can survive in conjunction with how much damage they can do/kill potential simultaneously.
I'd have placed the order as follows:
1) GF
2) GWF
3) TR
4) CW
5) DC
GF's are hard as hell, and even as a DC I can 1v1 beat many GWF's in PvP as everything works against them
I never said that what I'm saying is fact, I'm saying if you strongly disagree with me then you don't know what you're talking about.
I also put "OP" in quotations because its a loose term, there really isn't anything (save 1 or 2 things) that are truly over powered.
Also, this wasn't to start a debate, I'm just briefly letting anyone who cares to click on this thread know the reality of high level pvp in group vs group scenarios. This takes into account solo q perspective as well as premade vs premade.
My "OP" meter is based on how well you can survive and how much damage you can do/your kill potential simultaneously.
For example: I put TR's above GF's because even though GF can reach similar burst damage as a TR, TR's can do it from stealth while a GF is fully exposed (You can't block and use an encounter simultaneously)
Ooooh i see. So the the whole point of this post is to express your point of view as the "bottom line," if you will, without leaving room for disagreement. Yet, somehow, this is not stating your completely made up list is factual?
Do you know difference between a fact and an opinion? Maybe you just hold yourself in such an unnecessarily high regard that you cannot fathom your opinions not being taken as factual?
Whatever the case, enjoy your end-all-be-all list. Im out. This is like trying to convince one of those church crazies of.... well anything that isnt in their book of fairy tales
Wrong, they have always had the highest survivability, you were just never aware of it because only a handful of people understood this. GWF's in fact were never broken or needed work at all, so the buffs they recently got just made them even more powerful than they already were.
Fortunately for those handful of players that knew how to build/play GWF correctly, they are even more powerful now because of crybabies like yourself on forums who never fully understood the potential of the class.
Isn't that ironic? The most over powered class was and probably still is the most complained about class on the forums for being underpowered. And the dev's listen, thats the sad part.
Dude WTH are you talking about? When did you start playing this game? For the hate of the almighty Lolth go back into your little ****-hole of a cave and end this thread. You have no clue what you are talking about so stop embarrassing yourself.
They were never gimp, unfortunately only a handful of players understood this.
Very similar to all the people who use to be complaining about GF's being useless in pvp until they started seeing builds like mine and Envy's.
This is the problem that every MMO faces these days, where the general population does not fully realize the potential of their class, goes on the forums to complain, the dev's listen to them and make changes, game slowly gets ruined over time.
Good players will always succeed with what you give them, when they don't succeed is when you should start making changes to a game.
Can't wait to see you in a PvP match with your amazing build and otherworldly knowledge you have about a class that's not even yours. Boy am I gonna have fun with you...
Ooooh i see. So the the whole point of this post is to express your point of view as the "bottom line," if you will, without leaving room for disagreement. Yet, somehow, this is not stating your completely made up list is factual?
Do you know difference between a fact and an opinion? Maybe you just hold yourself in such an unnecessarily high regard that you cannot fathom your opinions not being taken as factual?
Whatever the case, enjoy your end-all-be-all list. Im out. This is like trying to convince one of those church crazies of.... well anything that isnt in their book of fairy tales
It takes a special ******bag to bring up religion on a videogame forum. Judging someone based on what they believe that may differ from yours is pretty asinine.
Dude WTH are you talking about? When did you start playing this game? For the hate of the almighty Lolth go back into your little ****-hole of a cave and end this thread. You have no clue what you are talking about so stop embarrassing yourself.
Lol, ok buddy, clearly you have not been playing with any decent GWFs, I know for sure you are not on Dragon now. If you were you would be smacking yourself in the head for being so naive.
GWFs Sentinel Regen build makes them impossible to kill 1v1, sometimes 2-3v1 and still put out high burst damage with tenebs. This means they can hold/contest a point by themselves non-stop, all match long. If they run into trouble, just sprint away, get a potion, run back before the point is recapped. Rinse and repeat. It takes a minimum of 2 people to stop them. That means 1 team is down a player in the rest of the map.
This build has been around pre-gwf buff, but few people were using it or knew it was even possible. Like you for example.
It is currently the strongest build in the game for PvP, when you have BIS it becomes godly.
Can't wait to see you in a PvP match with your amazing build and otherworldly knowledge you have about a class that's not even yours. Boy am I gonna have fun with you...
I compete and play against all the best guilds on Dragon, my guild and I beat all of them, premade vs premade. The only guild that gives us a challenge is Lemonade Stand, specifically because of this GWF build ironically. I look forward to seeing what your guild has to offer. Good luck.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Ooooh i see. So the the whole point of this post is to express your point of view as the "bottom line," if you will, without leaving room for disagreement. Yet, somehow, this is not stating your completely made up list is factual?
Do you know difference between a fact and an opinion? Maybe you just hold yourself in such an unnecessarily high regard that you cannot fathom your opinions not being taken as factual?
Whatever the case, enjoy your end-all-be-all list. Im out. This is like trying to convince one of those church crazies of.... well anything that isnt in their book of fairy tales
You haven't argued anything, all you did was come on here and say that my opinion isn't fact. No **** sherlock, I never said it was. Please provide the text where I specifically claim everything I've written is fact.
From my experience playing against/with the top pvp'rs on Dragon on a constant basis, this is how I've ranked the classes.
If you disagree with my list, please provide an argument as to why my list isn't accurate, I'll be glad to provide you with counter-arguments all day.
If you're here to nit pick and not even talk about the subject matter, please refrain from posting.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
GF's are hard as hell, and even as a DC I can 1v1 beat many GWF's in PvP as everything works against them
Then you clearly haven't fought any GWF Sentinel regen builds. You most definitely wouldn't even put a dent in them as a DC. They are the best tanks in the game and with tenebrouses they can burst down all the squishy classes as well.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
I often use Supremacy of Steel to counter perma-stealth builds and used to use it against GWFs. However, there's a few reasons it doesn't work against good GWFs:
1. The damage it reflects appears to be based on their weapon damage. I think the max damage reflected I've seen was 899. I've used it on many GWFs and it only helps kill the under-specced ones.
2. They regen/heal too fast for it to make a difference. Two players attacking a GWF > 1 player + Supremacy, and two players often cannot take one GWF down.
3. Supremacy is a daily and won't often be available.
4. Tenes ignore defense and GWFs often can do 7k+ damage from one set of procs (not including all the other damage they are doing at the same time).
5. They can simply wait out the Supremacy, and there's no way you're going to even have a chance to kill them without the added extra damage (they've done this against me as well).
look at their choices again and the tip how to kill them
supremacy return 50% damage or might be higher
i dont have tene and im not conqueror path but i kill gwf that spams temporary health
damager gwf is easy to kill dont even have to use reflect
when comparing classes dont include OP items like tene any class will be OP if you include OP items
even if im tank i can still deal high damage + long knockdown and no one can escape GF if they set their eyes on you makes GF the most OP class for me
0
inexgravMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm new to this game and quite bad at it but there's one thing I don't get about the balance in this. On one hand you have cw who sacrifices armor\health for range. But then you have all the melee fighters who have range attacks without sacrificing anything. I don't get it.
I'm new to this game and quite bad at it but there's one thing I don't get about the balance in this. On one hand you have cw who sacrifices armor\health for range. But then you have all the melee fighters who have range attacks without sacrificing anything. I don't get it.
What is the ranged attacks that melee fighters are using that you find is the issue? Most PvP fights have the GWF and GF up in my face so I'm not sure what you are referring to...
Shield dudes jumping all the way across the map, or hitting with a sword from 20 feet away. Then there's throwing daggers. I mean they have health+def +cc ignore to compensate for lack of range ... but then have the range anyway. Kinda weird.
Just did a little checking after having my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> handed to me several times by a GF and reading a bit about what is going on with PVP.
NOTE* I play a DC, I mostly queue solo, so this is based on what I have seen in those matches.
GF gets a feat that gives them a 0% to 100% Power boost based on their current guard meter level. So I did a little checking, my DC running a mix of recovery and power enchants (mostly tier 6, one or two tier 5) has the following relevant stats.
AC: 21
Power: 4312
Rec: 3808
Defense: 1277
Deflect: 0
Now this is accounts for what my character stats shows, which as far as I can tell accounts for companion bonus, passives from feats, set bonuses and stuff like that, but does not account for what my stats would be during combat if I am say standing in my Astral Shield. So I went to the market, looked around at the GF gear, picked the lowest price gear with both defense and power. This is what they gear would give as stats - this does not include class passives, companion bonuses, or anything like set bonuses (as I didnt price out sets). I dont think a single item I looked at cost more than 15k AD. In the stats, I did add in for rank 6 enchants in each offensive and defensive slot.
AC: 20 (remember that you have a base ac that would be added to this and can also get +5 from feats)
Power: 3972
Rec: ~1500
Defence: 3446
Deflect: ~900
What is most important to note and remember about this, there are no base stats added into the numbers for the guardian, only what the gear gives. So effectively the GF is going to have 30 to 35 AC depending on feats with up to a 15% bonus to defense and AC, as well, they will have a much higher base resistance to AOE and DoT effects. Now, this is troubling because, they can still set up their feats to get +5% deflect chance, +5 AC and still get the feat that gives them bonus power based on current guard meter. So effectively, a GF can alpha strike someone with an effective power of about 8k and still be massively tanky. While I understand they are slow with no sprint mechanic, they still have decent ways to close the gap on people and I see it used all the time in PVP. They also can keep a person prone or stunned for a significant duration.
I am not one to call for nerfs, TRs, GWFs, and GFs do need to be balanced out some. Either buff up CWs and DCs with some extra survival ability or damage, or tone down the survival/anti CC abilities or the damage of the other 3 classes. I hope everyone notices that I say either/or, too much boost, to little reduction, or doing all of the above would leave the other classes at a significant disadvantage and would make CW and DC over bearing.
Gear can play a role in this, but the classes themselves are no where near balanced and with top end gear it becomes more and more apparent.
NOTE* I play a DC, I mostly queue solo, so this is based on what I have seen in those matches.
Well there's your problem. PvP in its current state is not remotely fair on DCs. We have very little CC ourselves, virtually no CC resist, crappy armour, hilarious damage output and an inherent self-heal debuff. Also, you don't get points for healing peeps, and even the devs accept that this is an unfair situation.
A well-geared, PvP specced cleric, played very very well, can just about hold its own against others, but will still melt against a well-geared, well-played...anything else (other than another DC). And to do this you usually have to sacrifice healing for damage.
DCs are incredibly dependent on their group: if the rest of the group is terrible, you're just going to eat dirt over and over again. If the rest of the group isn't bad, and is in fact supportive ("look they're ganking our cleric again: let's combat advantage them"), then a DC can swing the balance.
At worst, if you play your heart out, you can tie up the other team long enough to let the rest of your team do stuff. It's not incredibly satisfying, but hey.
I'm new to this game and quite bad at it but there's one thing I don't get about the balance in this. On one hand you have cw who sacrifices armor\health for range. But then you have all the melee fighters who have range attacks without sacrificing anything. I don't get it.
they sacrifice their need for having a cleric... the cleric was heavily nerfed during the last patch while the fighters were given stuff like immunity and full healing through their attacks, the game's object was to take ads off of clerics therefore giving justification to nerf them into the ground while placing the mobs onto the front line fighters giving justification to make them immune and turn them into self-healing tanks replacing the need of clerics
Comments
Those are the silliest suggestions ever other than Direct Dmg, which I do with Frontline Surge or Bulls Rush if I guess where they are/will be.
I'm not going to get rid of those core abilities that are paramount to my crowd control and killing potential, so that I can maybe knock a rogue out of stealth after they have already demolished my health in 2-3 seconds.
Briartwine is only good for GWF atm. It's absolutely useless for everyone else. I'm not swapping 4 seconds of invulnerability for that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Suggestions 1 - 2 are totally impractical. Try again.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Seriously think before you type something. You contradict yourself in the same sentence.
"It's not going to do anything since it reduces incoming dmg by 90%" Then it's still doing 10% which is something and better than nothing. Also I think it has an animation that goes towards the location of the player when it procs. So you can follow the animation and see the location of the player.
That 10% is nothing to a true INT perma-stealth, it might as well be nothing since their stealth lasts significantly longer than by default.
This just in, no one ever said there was.
This was funny.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
GWF and TR i kill them with reflect using their own damage
tr is my fav enemy most of the tr duelist assaulter dont think just 2 duelist assault with reflect on and they will die
for GWF reduce their HP first if they use temporary health buffs use reflect and watch them die if you dont have daily just hit n run them
You mean 3% reflect from Guarded Assault and/or up to 4% from Briartwine armor enchantment? By itself that damage is inconsequential - are you talking about some other reflect like Supremacy of Steel?
their choices
1. hit you
2. run while you kill them
I often use Supremacy of Steel to counter perma-stealth builds and used to use it against GWFs. However, there's a few reasons it doesn't work against good GWFs:
1. The damage it reflects appears to be based on their weapon damage. I think the max damage reflected I've seen was 899. I've used it on many GWFs and it only helps kill the under-specced ones.
2. They regen/heal too fast for it to make a difference. Two players attacking a GWF > 1 player + Supremacy, and two players often cannot take one GWF down.
3. Supremacy is a daily and won't often be available.
4. Tenes ignore defense and GWFs often can do 7k+ damage from one set of procs (not including all the other damage they are doing at the same time).
5. They can simply wait out the Supremacy, and there's no way you're going to even have a chance to kill them without the added extra damage (they've done this against me as well).
I'd have placed the order as follows:
1) GF
2) GWF
3) TR
4) CW
5) DC
GF's are hard as hell, and even as a DC I can 1v1 beat many GWF's in PvP as everything works against them
2) CW
3) DC
That is my observation for the matches that everybody seems to be similarly geared with similar skill level.
Ooooh i see. So the the whole point of this post is to express your point of view as the "bottom line," if you will, without leaving room for disagreement. Yet, somehow, this is not stating your completely made up list is factual?
Do you know difference between a fact and an opinion? Maybe you just hold yourself in such an unnecessarily high regard that you cannot fathom your opinions not being taken as factual?
Whatever the case, enjoy your end-all-be-all list. Im out. This is like trying to convince one of those church crazies of.... well anything that isnt in their book of fairy tales
Dude WTH are you talking about? When did you start playing this game? For the hate of the almighty Lolth go back into your little ****-hole of a cave and end this thread. You have no clue what you are talking about so stop embarrassing yourself.
Can't wait to see you in a PvP match with your amazing build and otherworldly knowledge you have about a class that's not even yours. Boy am I gonna have fun with you...
It takes a special ******bag to bring up religion on a videogame forum. Judging someone based on what they believe that may differ from yours is pretty asinine.
Otherwise, I still normally put TR at top if you phase out top players from your quota. (or GF's if they are defense/shield specced.)
Lol, ok buddy, clearly you have not been playing with any decent GWFs, I know for sure you are not on Dragon now. If you were you would be smacking yourself in the head for being so naive.
GWFs Sentinel Regen build makes them impossible to kill 1v1, sometimes 2-3v1 and still put out high burst damage with tenebs. This means they can hold/contest a point by themselves non-stop, all match long. If they run into trouble, just sprint away, get a potion, run back before the point is recapped. Rinse and repeat. It takes a minimum of 2 people to stop them. That means 1 team is down a player in the rest of the map.
This build has been around pre-gwf buff, but few people were using it or knew it was even possible. Like you for example.
It is currently the strongest build in the game for PvP, when you have BIS it becomes godly.
I compete and play against all the best guilds on Dragon, my guild and I beat all of them, premade vs premade. The only guild that gives us a challenge is Lemonade Stand, specifically because of this GWF build ironically. I look forward to seeing what your guild has to offer. Good luck.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
You haven't argued anything, all you did was come on here and say that my opinion isn't fact. No **** sherlock, I never said it was. Please provide the text where I specifically claim everything I've written is fact.
From my experience playing against/with the top pvp'rs on Dragon on a constant basis, this is how I've ranked the classes.
If you disagree with my list, please provide an argument as to why my list isn't accurate, I'll be glad to provide you with counter-arguments all day.
If you're here to nit pick and not even talk about the subject matter, please refrain from posting.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Then you clearly haven't fought any GWF Sentinel regen builds. You most definitely wouldn't even put a dent in them as a DC. They are the best tanks in the game and with tenebrouses they can burst down all the squishy classes as well.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
supremacy return 50% damage or might be higher
i dont have tene and im not conqueror path but i kill gwf that spams temporary health
damager gwf is easy to kill dont even have to use reflect
when comparing classes dont include OP items like tene any class will be OP if you include OP items
even if im tank i can still deal high damage + long knockdown and no one can escape GF if they set their eyes on you makes GF the most OP class for me
It wasn't that bad.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
What is the ranged attacks that melee fighters are using that you find is the issue? Most PvP fights have the GWF and GF up in my face so I'm not sure what you are referring to...
NOTE* I play a DC, I mostly queue solo, so this is based on what I have seen in those matches.
GF gets a feat that gives them a 0% to 100% Power boost based on their current guard meter level. So I did a little checking, my DC running a mix of recovery and power enchants (mostly tier 6, one or two tier 5) has the following relevant stats.
AC: 21
Power: 4312
Rec: 3808
Defense: 1277
Deflect: 0
Now this is accounts for what my character stats shows, which as far as I can tell accounts for companion bonus, passives from feats, set bonuses and stuff like that, but does not account for what my stats would be during combat if I am say standing in my Astral Shield. So I went to the market, looked around at the GF gear, picked the lowest price gear with both defense and power. This is what they gear would give as stats - this does not include class passives, companion bonuses, or anything like set bonuses (as I didnt price out sets). I dont think a single item I looked at cost more than 15k AD. In the stats, I did add in for rank 6 enchants in each offensive and defensive slot.
AC: 20 (remember that you have a base ac that would be added to this and can also get +5 from feats)
Power: 3972
Rec: ~1500
Defence: 3446
Deflect: ~900
What is most important to note and remember about this, there are no base stats added into the numbers for the guardian, only what the gear gives. So effectively the GF is going to have 30 to 35 AC depending on feats with up to a 15% bonus to defense and AC, as well, they will have a much higher base resistance to AOE and DoT effects. Now, this is troubling because, they can still set up their feats to get +5% deflect chance, +5 AC and still get the feat that gives them bonus power based on current guard meter. So effectively, a GF can alpha strike someone with an effective power of about 8k and still be massively tanky. While I understand they are slow with no sprint mechanic, they still have decent ways to close the gap on people and I see it used all the time in PVP. They also can keep a person prone or stunned for a significant duration.
I am not one to call for nerfs, TRs, GWFs, and GFs do need to be balanced out some. Either buff up CWs and DCs with some extra survival ability or damage, or tone down the survival/anti CC abilities or the damage of the other 3 classes. I hope everyone notices that I say either/or, too much boost, to little reduction, or doing all of the above would leave the other classes at a significant disadvantage and would make CW and DC over bearing.
Gear can play a role in this, but the classes themselves are no where near balanced and with top end gear it becomes more and more apparent.
Well there's your problem. PvP in its current state is not remotely fair on DCs. We have very little CC ourselves, virtually no CC resist, crappy armour, hilarious damage output and an inherent self-heal debuff. Also, you don't get points for healing peeps, and even the devs accept that this is an unfair situation.
A well-geared, PvP specced cleric, played very very well, can just about hold its own against others, but will still melt against a well-geared, well-played...anything else (other than another DC). And to do this you usually have to sacrifice healing for damage.
DCs are incredibly dependent on their group: if the rest of the group is terrible, you're just going to eat dirt over and over again. If the rest of the group isn't bad, and is in fact supportive ("look they're ganking our cleric again: let's combat advantage them"), then a DC can swing the balance.
At worst, if you play your heart out, you can tie up the other team long enough to let the rest of your team do stuff. It's not incredibly satisfying, but hey.
they sacrifice their need for having a cleric... the cleric was heavily nerfed during the last patch while the fighters were given stuff like immunity and full healing through their attacks, the game's object was to take ads off of clerics therefore giving justification to nerf them into the ground while placing the mobs onto the front line fighters giving justification to make them immune and turn them into self-healing tanks replacing the need of clerics