ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Remember guys I am only a player.
However, like it or not, the dungeon delves over-rewards the players. I have seen this thread time and time again and the cry is always to increase the availability of rewards which are, in all honesty, over-rewarding to begin with.
The truth is if I was in charge I'd scrap the guaranteed loot from dungeon delves. I don't think that would make you all very happy but that's the best option to maintain balance in the end game.
But keep that in mind as you debate with me because while I am a player I had years of experience developing my NWN server(s). I don't hesitate to say when more isn't better.
In this case more isn't better. The gap between DD and normal dungeons is far to great. Period. But truth be told the best solution for the state of the game is to nerf the DD chest to be less rewarding but I know that's not likely the course of action Cryptic will take as it's something you guys would be, understandably, unhappy with.
So I am telling you, as a realist, asking for anything which would make the already overpowered DD event more available to anybody is not something I can not see happening. It's bad enough as it is! The loot is too commonly dropped even when the events are limited.
The most likely scenario is to give some reason to do dungeons outside of the DD event rather than to make the loot drops any more common than they already are.
I think the point amb is missing here is that the way DD rotates around the clock every day, it's impossible as it stands now to actually plan for it. Every time you log in you can never be sure if a DD is 10 minutes from now, 3 hrs, 7 hrs, or whatever.
I understand that but increasing the availability of the DD is a no-no in my books.
I am simply not looking at this topic as a player but as a developer considering longer term implications with the knowledge that shortcuts will be removed from dungeons thus balancing the major out of balance aspects of the current DD Event set-up.
However, log into the game. Press L. At the bottom left side of the screen you will see the next 12 hours of events. Obviously that doesn't help plan from one night to another and I would love to see them expand that to 24-48 hours at least but the tool is there.
Also this system is, sadly, only available in game. I think the same event system should be, ideally, implemented into the website or gateway. That would solve the planning issues without also hurting the game's balance.
There's also the whole issue of progression: in this game you can get to 60 awfully fast if you play regularly, and then at 60 you hit something of a wall, since you're more or less left with "dungeons, PvP and one skirmish", and only the dungeons give you the loot you need to progress to...harder dungeons. You've gone from being level limited to being gear-limited, and unlike exp (requires:time), gear aquisition is highly luck based (requires:time, luck).
"Making high-tier loot even harder to get" would simply make this wall even higher, presenting an even more imposing barrier to progression, post-60.
Having an easily achieved level cap CAN work: look at guild wars, but the point there was that by max level you'd have top gear, be doing as much damage as you're likely to ever do, but you're only a third of the way through the content. Getting good enough to play through the content was the goal, not reaching max level.
Here the reward for max level is pretty much "play recycled dungeons in hardmode until you get enough purps to play other recycled dungeons in hardmode".
Clearly this is a working model, coz we're still here, but skinner box approaches are volatile things: making it less likely to get X amount of progression in Y time (especially when the run up to it gave X times 10 progression in Y time) will simply drive people away in droves.
You need to catch up. They have already considered this and decided (rightfully) that they aren't going to do BOP on chest items. But why?
It will kill the game if they put this in, for several reasons.
There are TONS of players who buy zen to sell on the exchange to get AD to buy gear off the AH. If they change chest items to BOP then these players who buy zen, won't buy zen anymore because they can't buy gear off the AH. In other words Cryptic would lose out on money.
Not only that but it removes any desire to rerun a dungeon if you already have the gear if it is BOP. Who's gunna want to keep running the same dungeon over and over for the same stuff they already have? To sell it to an NPC at 1g or a few thousand AD each? No thankx. To help a guildie get gear? yeah you are gunna run it dozens of times to get nothing out of all your time, just to help guildies who are probably going to quit shortly after when they realize they don't have anything else to collect for gear.
Simply put, BOP will kill this game if they put it in. *FACT*
One is true, Cryptic want ZEN/AD/Market
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2013
Indeed, and yet increasing the rate of acquisition further, in a system that is already REALLY fast, is a big problem.
Right now it's far harder to obtain high level enchantments than it is to get all the gear from Castle Never.
If you've read basically anything I've said in other threads you'd know I'm a huge advocate for slowing down the pace of leveling to be at least twice as slow. There's a number of issues and not the least of them is that it feels like a skinner box at times. However that's also why I do not advocate any changes to the DD which would increase the amount of rewards.
After level 60, as you put it, the game does become a fight to get high level gear. It's honestly extremely easy as it is and the price for basically every T1 set is less than 100K AD because of that. That's with the complaints that rewards aren't common so increasing the amount of rewards will simply decrease the value.
If we put that in perspective without selling items on the Auction House Tier 1 sets can be farmed by daily rewards/professions in five days. Tier 2 is a bit tougher but even as it is the number of loot drops > the number of people who will need the drops. The prices will only go down as it is now. Even Cryptic stated they realized this when they decided to change their drop mechanics.
Increasing the speed in which players can "beat" the game isn't something which is good for the players of for the game itself. As a player it seems like a great thing to request but ask yourself...the loot is dropped more often and you get rewards faster, yay...and then what?
You have no future goal except to farm money? To be used for...?
I'm with you guys that dungeons need to be more rewarding...
But the DD Chests are a problem, not a solution.They should have never been as rewarding as they are...but since they already are I believe they are here to stay...but not to become more common.
Yeah, there are problems with endgame. For many it's "buy your armour on the auction house, then use armour to run dungeons to earn back the AD you spent on armour", but even if you want to earn your armour, you still have to run a ton of dungeons, get a ton of seals which are largely useless beyond a certain point, and get a lot of duplicate loot which you have to get rid of somehow, and the AH is the most profitable way of doing so.
Economy becomes a gearfest either way.
I dunno. It just needs more...stuff to do at endgame. And people being people I guess that stuff needs rewards, and then we're back in the spiral again.
To take yet another example from guild wars (sorry) I wonder if people would be prepared to run high end stuff for purely cosmetic items (like dyes? Since the code for that's already in): GW let you reach max damage weapons and max protection armour incredibly quickly, but it looked fairly rubbish. Running some high-end super hard dungeons a few times would net you materials to make yourself armour that stats-wise was identical to the basic stuff, but looked better. Pure status symbol, basically.
If you've read basically anything I've said in other threads you'd know I'm a huge advocate for slowing down the pace of leveling to be at least twice as slow. There's a number of issues and not the least of them is that it feels like a skinner box at times. However that's also why I do not advocate any changes to the DD which would increase the amount of rewards.
If they make changes to the dungeons, such as prevent knocking off mobs but keep their HP and DMG the same, it will increase the length of time required to complete dungeons. With this same DD arrangement players are going to get fed up when they run the same dungeon during DD and it takes them 2 hours to complete each run because they can't knock monsters off cliffs and it takes for ever to kill each group then they are just going to get fed up and leave the game.
I have ran dungeons that took 20 minutes but that included pushing monsters off the cliff, to only have a player say when we reach the boss that they have to leave. Not being able to replace a party member who leaves in a 2 hour long dungeon where the odds of someone disconnecting or needing to leave, will reduce chances of getting gear as well.
Over all, Dungeon Delves is a horrible idea, it never should be in an MMO because it punishes casual gamers who don't have all day to schedule their game time around just so they can run a dungeon and actually get some meaningful reward. This will only get worse, because no players are going to want to run a dungeon when there is NO DD if it takes 2 hours to complete the dungeon since they can no longer push mobs off cliffs.
Long time frame between DDs + longer dungeon runs = failed game
For many it's "buy your armour on the auction house, then use armour to run dungeons to earn back the AD you spent on armour", but even if you want to earn your armour, you still have to run a ton of dungeons
Easier said than done with all the snobbery in this game. Don't have experience, not a wanted class, lacking an insane gearscore? Get lost, peasant.
And I don't see many people running T1s, so you'll most likely have to PUG for that. Yeah, I'd rather just buy the gear, thanks.
They can't give a chest at the end of every dungeon, but perhaps maybe a decent amount of AD for completing dungeons would make it more rewarding for the players. It's something that bots can't exploit, at least.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
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elilusoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 20Arc User
I'd rather pug and educate, personally, but that's just me.
I would too, but every PUG I've done nobody wanted to communicate. Without communication, you can't even get everyone on the same page, let alone teach them anything.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to argue with you, I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. Just having a conversation.
Players should want to do the dungeons regardless of the dungeon delve event and it's just not working out that way. That's the problem which needs to be addressed.
I agree with this. I do however think it is too late for them to change any of this -- at least for T2 gear.
We know for certain they aren't going to increase the influx of new gear. And right now, the DD is the only thing limiting it. But reducing the rewards from DDs risks players simply not doing the dungeons at all anymore. Which is not desired.
However, like it or not, the dungeon delves over-rewards the players. I have seen this thread time and time again and the cry is always to increase the availability of rewards which are, in all honesty, over-rewarding to begin with.
The truth is if I was in charge I'd scrap the guaranteed loot from dungeon delves. I don't think that would make you all very happy but that's the best option to maintain balance in the end game.
But keep that in mind as you debate with me because while I am a player I had years of experience developing my NWN server(s). I don't hesitate to say when more isn't better.
In this case more isn't better. The gap between DD and normal dungeons is far to great. Period. But truth be told the best solution for the state of the game is to nerf the DD chest to be less rewarding but I know that's not likely the course of action Cryptic will take as it's something you guys would be, understandably, unhappy with.
So I am telling you, as a realist, asking for anything which would make the already overpowered DD event more available to anybody is not something I can not see happening. It's bad enough as it is! The loot is too commonly dropped even when the events are limited.
The most likely scenario is to give some reason to do dungeons outside of the DD event rather than to make the loot drops any more common than they already are.
The dungeon delves over-rewards the players? Really? Hmmm, let's say I'm a DC and I just got 60, and I have a gear score of -6300, so that would mean I could only do the first two T1 dungeons. Without that end chest, I get nothing for my class, nada! Tell me why a rogue should be able to find an item in both those dungeons and I shouldn't be awarded anything. I did my part clearing the dungeon and with some bad luck (for the shards), you're telling me I could get nothing out of it? Tell me how this is not under-rewarding...
Actually I don't get why some dungeons are class specific...every class should be entitled to a possible reward at each dungeon. Even better, rewards should reflect your party. If you don't have a TR in your party, then why drop an epic for a TR?
If something like this is done, then yes, you can lower the end chest rewards.
But having to run a dungeon knowing I can't get something out of it...doesn't seem like a good deal.
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taishaku77Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
However, like it or not, the dungeon delves over-rewards the players. I have seen this thread time and time again and the cry is always to increase the availability of rewards which are, in all honesty, over-rewarding to begin with.
The truth is if I was in charge I'd scrap the guaranteed loot from dungeon delves. I don't think that would make you all very happy but that's the best option to maintain balance in the end game.
But keep that in mind as you debate with me because while I am a player I had years of experience developing my NWN server(s). I don't hesitate to say when more isn't better.
In this case more isn't better. The gap between DD and normal dungeons is far to great. Period. But truth be told the best solution for the state of the game is to nerf the DD chest to be less rewarding but I know that's not likely the course of action Cryptic will take as it's something you guys would be, understandably, unhappy with.
So I am telling you, as a realist, asking for anything which would make the already overpowered DD event more available to anybody is not something I can not see happening. It's bad enough as it is! The loot is too commonly dropped even when the events are limited.
The most likely scenario is to give some reason to do dungeons outside of the DD event rather than to make the loot drops any more common than they already are.
I agree with you that the difference between a Dungeon delve run and a normal run is too big; it would be good to get some AD or rank 5 enchantments or crafting materials from dungeons othen than the insane flow of useless green level 60items.
Also, Seals of the drake could be made useful, for example to buy T2 set items (at an high exchange rate).
Permanent DD would not be a solution, but it has to be said that the items dropped by bosses are usually horrible, only the last boss of every dungeon has a chance to drop something decent.
On a side note, these days if your guildmates are not around, it is extremely hard to find a group that is not going to exploit the content. Cheaters are openly recruiting in zone chat for "Castle Never last boss only" runs, and the amount of shortcuts and other tricks allowing exploiters to make speed runs is what really floods the AH with items that should be more rare.
I sincerely hope that the upcoming patch will solve that issue.
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graymannnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited June 2013
3 letters is your solution... to stop flooding the market...... BOP... but they wont do that because it will cost them money...
I don't think the event will change much. They want people to log in at particular times. This concentrates the playerbase and forces behavior around the events they provide. It's about concentrating play efforts around certain times of the day to make the game more populous around the events. Finding a group is easy when DD is up (or before for a preclear), less easy when its not. This is intentional.
However, like it or not, the dungeon delves over-rewards the players. I have seen this thread time and time again and the cry is always to increase the availability of rewards which are, in all honesty, over-rewarding to begin with.
The truth is if I was in charge I'd scrap the guaranteed loot from dungeon delves. I don't think that would make you all very happy but that's the best option to maintain balance in the end game.
...
The most likely scenario is to give some reason to do dungeons outside of the DD event rather than to make the loot drops any more common than they already are.
Nicely said. I wouldnt mind if there were no DD times at all but maybe better loot from the mobs people like to skip (including exploiting) at all cost. Seals, whatever which may drop from them instead of bosses (and rework seal rewards completely to fit the idea and make seals more attractive!). Just as an idea. Im pretty sure people may find even more awesam ideas to attract people to kill mobs. Should fix some issues with dungeons.
The problem is the perception that Dungeons aren't worth doing unless the delve is going. It's the WoW mentality of loot loot loot. How about running it because it's fun? The developers put a lot of time and effort into making these for people and most are in such a hurry to get to the end they don't notice the fantastic surroundings or the story at hand.
It's too bad really.
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2013
How about during NONE dungeon delved event, the chest only give BOP items. This will encourage people to get item for themselves (or possible BoA) but still has a limit. (once a day or twice a day) and they can still do dungeon Delve to BoE item
The problem is the perception that Dungeons aren't worth doing unless the delve is going. It's the WoW mentality of loot loot loot. How about running it because it's fun? The developers put a lot of time and effort into making these for people and most are in such a hurry to get to the end they don't notice the fantastic surroundings or the story at hand.
It's too bad really.
It is all about time really. how much stuff can they get within a period of time. There are some people who may run just for fun, but generally most people are doing it for the loot.
tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
edited July 2013
Here's a thought:
To make dungeons worth exploring, how about adding two elements:
- Randomness
- Meaningful off-the-path rewards
Here's what I mean.
A fun D&D game encourages players to search an unknown dungeon, with anticipation as to both the horrors and the treasures they may find.
Using the current dungeons as a baseline, randomly add hidden paths, secret doors, and puzzles to a given instance. The new areas must be found (just because there was a secret door if you drop down to the ledge below in the last instance, doesn't mean it will be there this time). What the new areas hold is a mystery until explored. Is it a mindless beast that will just weaken the party? A strong encounter guarding a chest? Perhaps the key to a chest that must still be found, but contains a rare artifact?
You need to catch up. They have already considered this and decided (rightfully) that they aren't going to do BOP on chest items. But why?
It will kill the game if they put this in, for several reasons.
There are TONS of players who buy zen to sell on the exchange to get AD to buy gear off the AH. If they change chest items to BOP then these players who buy zen, won't buy zen anymore because they can't buy gear off the AH. In other words Cryptic would lose out on money.
Not only that but it removes any desire to rerun a dungeon if you already have the gear if it is BOP. Who's gunna want to keep running the same dungeon over and over for the same stuff they already have? To sell it to an NPC at 1g or a few thousand AD each? No thankx. To help a guildie get gear? yeah you are gunna run it dozens of times to get nothing out of all your time, just to help guildies who are probably going to quit shortly after when they realize they don't have anything else to collect for gear.
Simply put, BOP will kill this game if they put it in. *FACT*
Some of the belts and rings from the DD chests are BoE , last time I checked .
facts = straight next time you pull some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of your bhole.
Allow T1/T2 Set items to be obtained through seals at a reasonable amount and make it Bind on Pickup.
Yeah, I know if this is the case people will farm easier dungeons like Pirates or Cloak Tower, but what I mean is make new seals specific to that dungeon that you could only trade for specific parts of the set.
Just my suggestion
This is a good suggestion.
The problem is the loot tables, imo. Not many players want to run a dungeon that gives junk until the last boss. Then, at the last boss, you have a very small chance to get something you need. Usually, it's a worthless belt or neck. Most of my guild doesn't want to run during non-DD times. Then, when you're offline and DD hits, you're screwed. When that happens to me, I just come in, pray, rotate crafting, stand around in enclave, then log out. Being able to buy REAL T2 gear with seals, the same stuff that drops in dungeons, would help immensely. Players would run dungeons for seals and build towards getting that item, that one items that never drops.
Of course, they might have to add something else to the nearly impossible dungeons like spider and dread vault. Something to entice players to go there instead of farming other dungeons.
Overall, though, I think part of the problem is the time commitment required for many dungeons. Champions Online has the Alerts, which are very quick encapsulated encounters w/ a boss - I think those are too short, but something in between would be perfect, (think something in the 15-20 mins range).
There's already skirmishes in 15-20 range. But the problem is that the old ones can't be replayed.
The event thing definitely requires reworking:
No incentive to run skirmishes or dungeons outside event time.
Gauntlygrym is unplayable for people under 60 and it's really a waste of event time for them.
Foundry XP bonus is useless for people at level 60. I would even say useless for people under 60 as leveling is already too fast
Profession kits are not frequent enough if you're in a group. You have to be the fastest at the node to get the event bonus.
Non-event rewards are incredibly bland. There's not even a chest to open at the end.
The problem is the perception that Dungeons aren't worth doing unless the delve is going. It's the WoW mentality of loot loot loot. How about running it because it's fun? The developers put a lot of time and effort into making these for people and most are in such a hurry to get to the end they don't notice the fantastic surroundings or the story at hand.
It's too bad really.
Because, after you've run it again and again, it becomes a chore. Add swarming isn't fun.
What about remove DD but make boss more rewarding?
I have to say in over 30+ final boss (both t1 and t2) only twice it dropped a set item.. Always neck/ring/belt (rly rarely some main/off hand).
So i can figure chance to drop is something like what? 5? Dunno.. But i believe that remove DD and make boss loot more appetible could work.. Or, like suggested by someone yet, if u don't want to make loot more rewarding u can always make a special seal (rare, like 2/3 per dungeon), and allow ppl to farm those seal that can be exchange for t2 items..
Just my 2 cent. I'm not even good speaking english and elaborate about a problem (in english ofc ^^) so i'll let u find a solution.
I think it's better to focus on the true issue: You feel under-rewarded for playing when the DD Event isn't active.
There is nothing wrong with the DD mechanic other than the fact players feel it isn't worth-while to do dungeons outside of the DD Event. That's not a problem with the event, that's a problem with the non-DD rewards.
The one thing I can basically promise will not happen, coming from a player experienced in balancing games, is that the solution is to simply give the chest at the end of every dungeon even if it's only for a few times a day. That would absolutely destroy the game balance and overpopulate the game with items.
The delve event exists in order to get players to organize events around it. They are supposed to log in and say 'hey guys Delves starts in 30 minutes let's go do a dungeon during that time' as an added incentive. The only real problem with this is that when the delve event isn't going players feel extremely under-rewarded for their time and effort and that is the true problem.
O.K. so you admit that players feel under rewarded for their time in these dungeons and you know that player really only play the dungeons for the additional benefit of the end loot chest but you don't want to let people get the chest because it would overpopulate the game with items, the same items that people want so that they can feel that they are being rewarded for their time? Is that some sort of 2 paragraph oxymoron?
You do realize that there are dozens of good solid examples of reward systems out there for mmos right? You also realize that your token system is done completely backwards from what most of these good examples do and that these tokens are really not sought after? and the item drops off of the bosses are mostly worthless (and is what is truly causing item bloat).
The problem is the perception that Dungeons aren't worth doing unless the delve is going. It's the WoW mentality of loot loot loot. How about running it because it's fun? The developers put a lot of time and effort into making these for people and most are in such a hurry to get to the end they don't notice the fantastic surroundings or the story at hand.
It's too bad really.
When something becomes repetitive it usually starts to become unappealing. Take marriage for example.
Comments
However, like it or not, the dungeon delves over-rewards the players. I have seen this thread time and time again and the cry is always to increase the availability of rewards which are, in all honesty, over-rewarding to begin with.
The truth is if I was in charge I'd scrap the guaranteed loot from dungeon delves. I don't think that would make you all very happy but that's the best option to maintain balance in the end game.
But keep that in mind as you debate with me because while I am a player I had years of experience developing my NWN server(s). I don't hesitate to say when more isn't better.
In this case more isn't better. The gap between DD and normal dungeons is far to great. Period. But truth be told the best solution for the state of the game is to nerf the DD chest to be less rewarding but I know that's not likely the course of action Cryptic will take as it's something you guys would be, understandably, unhappy with.
So I am telling you, as a realist, asking for anything which would make the already overpowered DD event more available to anybody is not something I can not see happening. It's bad enough as it is! The loot is too commonly dropped even when the events are limited.
The most likely scenario is to give some reason to do dungeons outside of the DD event rather than to make the loot drops any more common than they already are.
I understand that but increasing the availability of the DD is a no-no in my books.
I am simply not looking at this topic as a player but as a developer considering longer term implications with the knowledge that shortcuts will be removed from dungeons thus balancing the major out of balance aspects of the current DD Event set-up.
However, log into the game. Press L. At the bottom left side of the screen you will see the next 12 hours of events. Obviously that doesn't help plan from one night to another and I would love to see them expand that to 24-48 hours at least but the tool is there.
Also this system is, sadly, only available in game. I think the same event system should be, ideally, implemented into the website or gateway. That would solve the planning issues without also hurting the game's balance.
"Making high-tier loot even harder to get" would simply make this wall even higher, presenting an even more imposing barrier to progression, post-60.
Having an easily achieved level cap CAN work: look at guild wars, but the point there was that by max level you'd have top gear, be doing as much damage as you're likely to ever do, but you're only a third of the way through the content. Getting good enough to play through the content was the goal, not reaching max level.
Here the reward for max level is pretty much "play recycled dungeons in hardmode until you get enough purps to play other recycled dungeons in hardmode".
Clearly this is a working model, coz we're still here, but skinner box approaches are volatile things: making it less likely to get X amount of progression in Y time (especially when the run up to it gave X times 10 progression in Y time) will simply drive people away in droves.
One is true, Cryptic want ZEN/AD/Market
Right now it's far harder to obtain high level enchantments than it is to get all the gear from Castle Never.
If you've read basically anything I've said in other threads you'd know I'm a huge advocate for slowing down the pace of leveling to be at least twice as slow. There's a number of issues and not the least of them is that it feels like a skinner box at times. However that's also why I do not advocate any changes to the DD which would increase the amount of rewards.
After level 60, as you put it, the game does become a fight to get high level gear. It's honestly extremely easy as it is and the price for basically every T1 set is less than 100K AD because of that. That's with the complaints that rewards aren't common so increasing the amount of rewards will simply decrease the value.
If we put that in perspective without selling items on the Auction House Tier 1 sets can be farmed by daily rewards/professions in five days. Tier 2 is a bit tougher but even as it is the number of loot drops > the number of people who will need the drops. The prices will only go down as it is now. Even Cryptic stated they realized this when they decided to change their drop mechanics.
Increasing the speed in which players can "beat" the game isn't something which is good for the players of for the game itself. As a player it seems like a great thing to request but ask yourself...the loot is dropped more often and you get rewards faster, yay...and then what?
You have no future goal except to farm money? To be used for...?
I'm with you guys that dungeons need to be more rewarding...
But the DD Chests are a problem, not a solution.They should have never been as rewarding as they are...but since they already are I believe they are here to stay...but not to become more common.
Economy becomes a gearfest either way.
I dunno. It just needs more...stuff to do at endgame. And people being people I guess that stuff needs rewards, and then we're back in the spiral again.
To take yet another example from guild wars (sorry) I wonder if people would be prepared to run high end stuff for purely cosmetic items (like dyes? Since the code for that's already in): GW let you reach max damage weapons and max protection armour incredibly quickly, but it looked fairly rubbish. Running some high-end super hard dungeons a few times would net you materials to make yourself armour that stats-wise was identical to the basic stuff, but looked better. Pure status symbol, basically.
If they make changes to the dungeons, such as prevent knocking off mobs but keep their HP and DMG the same, it will increase the length of time required to complete dungeons. With this same DD arrangement players are going to get fed up when they run the same dungeon during DD and it takes them 2 hours to complete each run because they can't knock monsters off cliffs and it takes for ever to kill each group then they are just going to get fed up and leave the game.
I have ran dungeons that took 20 minutes but that included pushing monsters off the cliff, to only have a player say when we reach the boss that they have to leave. Not being able to replace a party member who leaves in a 2 hour long dungeon where the odds of someone disconnecting or needing to leave, will reduce chances of getting gear as well.
Over all, Dungeon Delves is a horrible idea, it never should be in an MMO because it punishes casual gamers who don't have all day to schedule their game time around just so they can run a dungeon and actually get some meaningful reward. This will only get worse, because no players are going to want to run a dungeon when there is NO DD if it takes 2 hours to complete the dungeon since they can no longer push mobs off cliffs.
Long time frame between DDs + longer dungeon runs = failed game
Easier said than done with all the snobbery in this game. Don't have experience, not a wanted class, lacking an insane gearscore? Get lost, peasant.
And I don't see many people running T1s, so you'll most likely have to PUG for that. Yeah, I'd rather just buy the gear, thanks.
Maybe that the last boss drops 1 epic every time.
Year your right. I did not read carefully.
Sorry for that!!
I would too, but every PUG I've done nobody wanted to communicate. Without communication, you can't even get everyone on the same page, let alone teach them anything.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to argue with you, I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. Just having a conversation.
I agree with this. I do however think it is too late for them to change any of this -- at least for T2 gear.
We know for certain they aren't going to increase the influx of new gear. And right now, the DD is the only thing limiting it. But reducing the rewards from DDs risks players simply not doing the dungeons at all anymore. Which is not desired.
No, I can't see them changing this until T3 gear.
The dungeon delves over-rewards the players? Really? Hmmm, let's say I'm a DC and I just got 60, and I have a gear score of -6300, so that would mean I could only do the first two T1 dungeons. Without that end chest, I get nothing for my class, nada! Tell me why a rogue should be able to find an item in both those dungeons and I shouldn't be awarded anything. I did my part clearing the dungeon and with some bad luck (for the shards), you're telling me I could get nothing out of it? Tell me how this is not under-rewarding...
Actually I don't get why some dungeons are class specific...every class should be entitled to a possible reward at each dungeon. Even better, rewards should reflect your party. If you don't have a TR in your party, then why drop an epic for a TR?
If something like this is done, then yes, you can lower the end chest rewards.
But having to run a dungeon knowing I can't get something out of it...doesn't seem like a good deal.
Also, Seals of the drake could be made useful, for example to buy T2 set items (at an high exchange rate).
Permanent DD would not be a solution, but it has to be said that the items dropped by bosses are usually horrible, only the last boss of every dungeon has a chance to drop something decent.
On a side note, these days if your guildmates are not around, it is extremely hard to find a group that is not going to exploit the content. Cheaters are openly recruiting in zone chat for "Castle Never last boss only" runs, and the amount of shortcuts and other tricks allowing exploiters to make speed runs is what really floods the AH with items that should be more rare.
I sincerely hope that the upcoming patch will solve that issue.
Nicely said. I wouldnt mind if there were no DD times at all but maybe better loot from the mobs people like to skip (including exploiting) at all cost. Seals, whatever which may drop from them instead of bosses (and rework seal rewards completely to fit the idea and make seals more attractive!). Just as an idea. Im pretty sure people may find even more awesam ideas to attract people to kill mobs. Should fix some issues with dungeons.
It's too bad really.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
It is all about time really. how much stuff can they get within a period of time. There are some people who may run just for fun, but generally most people are doing it for the loot.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
To make dungeons worth exploring, how about adding two elements:
- Randomness
- Meaningful off-the-path rewards
Here's what I mean.
A fun D&D game encourages players to search an unknown dungeon, with anticipation as to both the horrors and the treasures they may find.
Using the current dungeons as a baseline, randomly add hidden paths, secret doors, and puzzles to a given instance. The new areas must be found (just because there was a secret door if you drop down to the ledge below in the last instance, doesn't mean it will be there this time). What the new areas hold is a mystery until explored. Is it a mindless beast that will just weaken the party? A strong encounter guarding a chest? Perhaps the key to a chest that must still be found, but contains a rare artifact?
Make exploring both interesting and worthwhile.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Some of the belts and rings from the DD chests are BoE , last time I checked .
facts = straight next time you pull some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of your bhole.
This is a good suggestion.
The problem is the loot tables, imo. Not many players want to run a dungeon that gives junk until the last boss. Then, at the last boss, you have a very small chance to get something you need. Usually, it's a worthless belt or neck. Most of my guild doesn't want to run during non-DD times. Then, when you're offline and DD hits, you're screwed. When that happens to me, I just come in, pray, rotate crafting, stand around in enclave, then log out. Being able to buy REAL T2 gear with seals, the same stuff that drops in dungeons, would help immensely. Players would run dungeons for seals and build towards getting that item, that one items that never drops.
Of course, they might have to add something else to the nearly impossible dungeons like spider and dread vault. Something to entice players to go there instead of farming other dungeons.
There's already skirmishes in 15-20 range. But the problem is that the old ones can't be replayed.
The event thing definitely requires reworking:
- No incentive to run skirmishes or dungeons outside event time.
- Gauntlygrym is unplayable for people under 60 and it's really a waste of event time for them.
- Foundry XP bonus is useless for people at level 60. I would even say useless for people under 60 as leveling is already too fast
- Profession kits are not frequent enough if you're in a group. You have to be the fastest at the node to get the event bonus.
- Non-event rewards are incredibly bland. There's not even a chest to open at the end.
Yes!!! If you have some random rewards, what better way to encourage player to redo dungeons?Because, after you've run it again and again, it becomes a chore. Add swarming isn't fun.
I have to say in over 30+ final boss (both t1 and t2) only twice it dropped a set item.. Always neck/ring/belt (rly rarely some main/off hand).
So i can figure chance to drop is something like what? 5? Dunno.. But i believe that remove DD and make boss loot more appetible could work.. Or, like suggested by someone yet, if u don't want to make loot more rewarding u can always make a special seal (rare, like 2/3 per dungeon), and allow ppl to farm those seal that can be exchange for t2 items..
Just my 2 cent. I'm not even good speaking english and elaborate about a problem (in english ofc ^^) so i'll let u find a solution.
O.K. so you admit that players feel under rewarded for their time in these dungeons and you know that player really only play the dungeons for the additional benefit of the end loot chest but you don't want to let people get the chest because it would overpopulate the game with items, the same items that people want so that they can feel that they are being rewarded for their time? Is that some sort of 2 paragraph oxymoron?
You do realize that there are dozens of good solid examples of reward systems out there for mmos right? You also realize that your token system is done completely backwards from what most of these good examples do and that these tokens are really not sought after? and the item drops off of the bosses are mostly worthless (and is what is truly causing item bloat).
When something becomes repetitive it usually starts to become unappealing. Take marriage for example.