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Forums > Home› Class Forums› The Militia Barracks
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Guard Meter Bonuses Don't Work

kreicuskreicus Member Posts: 76
edited June 2013 in The Militia Barracks
So. I've done some testing and realized that the Shield Talent, and Indomitable Armor (PVP) +Guard Meter bonuses are not working, at all. Assuming the same for the new Tier 2 PVP armor in Gauntlgrym. The total average blocked with +0% to the guard meter was 22253. The total average blocked with +35% guard meter was 21959. Resulting in 294 LESS blocked with the guard meter bonuses. So we can safely say that there is 0 change with the "bonuses" added.



Bonus:
0%






1675
1658
1671
2584
2080



836
796
846
4015
4210



1978
796
846
3964
4072



836
3938
4039
1999
3982



836
4098
4083
5144
4067



4245
796
846
3933
3939



3992
3985
4142





2031
4222
4058





3945
4077
1998


Average










20383
24366
22529
21639
22350
22253










Bonus:
+35%






1663
1990
1670
1627
1581



798
4019
823
831
829



798
4093
2026
831
829



4146
2049
823
4019
4140



4173
4225
4066
3978
4229



798
4225
823
831
829



2028

4216
2500
4080



4093

2025
4111
4046



4162

4116
4188
2469
Average










22659
20601
20588
22916
23032
21959

Post edited by kreicus on

Comments

  • Options
    drogon4drogon4 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kreicus wrote: »
    So. I've done some testing and realized that the Shield Talent, and Indomitable Armor (PVP) +Guard Meter bonuses are not working, at all. Assuming the same for the new Tier 2 PVP armor in Gauntlgrym. The total average blocked with +0% to the guard meter was 22253. The total average blocked with +35% guard meter was 21959. Resulting in 294 LESS blocked with the guard meter bonuses. So we can safely say that there is 0 change with the "bonuses" added.



    Bonus:
    0%






    1675
    1658
    1671
    2584
    2080



    836
    796
    846
    4015
    4210



    1978
    796
    846
    3964
    4072



    836
    3938
    4039
    1999
    3982



    836
    4098
    4083
    5144
    4067



    4245
    796
    846
    3933
    3939



    3992
    3985
    4142





    2031
    4222
    4058





    3945
    4077
    1998


    Average










    20383
    24366
    22529
    21639
    22350
    22253










    Bonus:
    +35%






    1663
    1990
    1670
    1627
    1581



    798
    4019
    823
    831
    829



    798
    4019
    823
    831
    829



    798
    4093
    2026
    831
    829



    4146
    2049
    823
    4019
    4140



    4173
    4225
    4066
    3978
    4229



    798
    4225
    823
    831
    829



    2028

    4216
    2500
    4080



    4093

    2025
    4111
    4046



    4162

    4116
    4188
    2469
    Average










    22659
    20601
    20588
    22916
    23032
    21959



    LOL. This is quite sad.
  • Options
    toughguyloltoughguylol Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    BUT MY TANKY GF GUIDE

    gooby

    y

    pls
  • Options
    kreicuskreicus Member Posts: 76
    edited June 2013
    So, I'm sitting here, thinking,... Yay! 2 replies after it left the front page!

    Now I'm wondering wtf these responses even mean. One made no sense, the other might make sense if i knew what it was saying.

    EDIT: I read all of toughguylol's GF posts,...they're all anti GF Tank. In case you read this again. I'm full Conqueror Spec with Stalwart/Timeless Sets. I play DPS...just thought I'd test the guard mechanics :)
  • Options
    toughguyloltoughguylol Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    yeah, I dont like teh tanky GF, and i didnt feel an increase in guard time with the passive slotted so i never bothered using it, but good to know that it doesnt work

    thank you for working out the math for it, lord knows my lazy *** wouldnt have
  • Options
    dkcandydkcandy Member Posts: 1,555 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    That just shows the # of players that play another spec other than Conqueror. :D

    Thanks for taking the time to actually get #'s but figured it was like this anyways since I never noticed any benefit to block%.
  • Options
    kreicuskreicus Member Posts: 76
    edited June 2013
    I like playing a "tank" type class is most games, but.. It seems like, with diminishing returns that no matter what spec you do you're going to be hitting the defensive caps anyways, so going conqueror seems to be the most logical, useful choice. By doing so you can still tank and DPS, and switch roles pretty easily.

    Because of the diminishing returns the only thing that a GF has going for it for tanking is the shield. I wanted to see how much you could buff a shield and if it'd be worth going that route to be more of a tank, but without the the +guard meter working, I really cant tell for sure.

    For simply math, say you block ~20,000 damage, ~8 hits with a full guard meter.

    +15% From Talent: ~23,000 - 1 to 2 more hits

    +35% From Talent and Tier 1 PvP: ~27,000 - 2 to 3 more hits.

    +40% From Talent and Tier 2 PvP: ~28,000 - 3 to 4 more hits.

    +40% as above and Shieldmaster Talent (10% reduced guard loss): ~30,000 - 4 more hits.


    So, obviously, fully specced for it you can block 50% more stuff. But only the last talent, Shieldmaster, which is the lowest gain, is the only thing you'd need to spec out of conqueror to get. So it doesn't seem like a good reason to not go conqueror.

    Sorry for the long explanation, much of it was giving myself proof of why its really not worth it :D
  • Options
    hadran1hadran1 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kreicus wrote: »
    So. I've done some testing and realized that the Shield Talent, and Indomitable Armor (PVP) +Guard Meter bonuses are not working, at all. Assuming the same for the new Tier 2 PVP armor in Gauntlgrym. The total average blocked with +0% to the guard meter was 22253. The total average blocked with +35% guard meter was 21959. Resulting in 294 LESS blocked with the guard meter bonuses. So we can safely say that there is 0 change with the "bonuses" added.



    Bonus:
    0%






    1675
    1658
    1671
    2584
    2080



    836
    796
    846
    4015
    4210



    1978
    796
    846
    3964
    4072



    836
    3938
    4039
    1999
    3982



    836
    4098
    4083
    5144
    4067



    4245
    796
    846
    3933
    3939



    3992
    3985
    4142





    2031
    4222
    4058





    3945
    4077
    1998


    Average










    20383
    24366
    22529
    21639
    22350
    22253










    Bonus:
    +35%






    1663
    1990
    1670
    1627
    1581



    798
    4019
    823
    831
    829



    798
    4093
    2026
    831
    829



    4146
    2049
    823
    4019
    4140



    4173
    4225
    4066
    3978
    4229



    798
    4225
    823
    831
    829



    2028

    4216
    2500
    4080



    4093

    2025
    4111
    4046



    4162

    4116
    4188
    2469
    Average










    22659
    20601
    20588
    22916
    23032
    21959


    Really?? Bud did you also test with shield talent alone? I always slot it for boss fights and pvp but never actually tried to go without it and see if i'll survive less =/
  • Options
    kreicuskreicus Member Posts: 76
    edited June 2013
    Without having actual numbers to go by, and with having guard regenerate some between slow attacks, I wanted to go with the largest change possible. I think if Shield Talent or the armor worked individually you'd at least see some change, the fact that both together showed nothing makes me think its not working as intended.
  • Options
    simkinfoolsimkinfool Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?335571-Bug-Shield-Master
  • Options
    kreicuskreicus Member Posts: 76
    edited June 2013
    I think I read that post before, but I didnt really pay it any attention at the time. It's not what I was testing but good to know. Kind of neat that it doesnt need the power I guess.
  • Options
    dorfyrdorfyr Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I did some testing yesterday on the same group of mobs. What i did was simply count the times they hit me before guard was broken.

    With no shield talent they hit me on average for 09-10 times before guard is broken.
    With shield talent on they hit me on average for 12-13 times before guard is broken.
    With no shield talent + Set bonus from Indomitable (+20% guard meter) they hit me on average for 13-14 times before guard is broken.
    With shield talent + Set bonus from Indomitable (+20 guard meter) they hit me on average for 12-13 times before guard is broken.

    Using both Shield talent + Set bonus from Indomitable seems to nullify each other in some way.

    I suggest you ONLY use the set bonus from Indomitable (+20 guard meter) and another Class Feature than Shield Talent until this bug is fixed. I think i will go for Reactive armor, the one that reflects 3% damage back to attacker.

    Shield Talent do give you extra guard meter but it wont stack with set bonus from Indomitable. If you use another GF armor set then using shield talent should be fine.
  • Options
    trollgretrollgre Member Posts: 297
    edited June 2013
    based on my experience
    i tried protector build before its guard meter last longer ( up to 1/3) than GF without guard improving feat
    but it is still useless everyone knows that guard is useless against lots of mobs i only use it to block boss strong skills and knocking skills

    most usefull path for GF are tactician and conqueror
    protector? makes you just a little tougher still cant protect yourself from lots of mobs
  • Options
    kreicuskreicus Member Posts: 76
    edited June 2013
    dorfyr wrote: »
    I did some testing yesterday on the same group of mobs. What i did was simply count the times they hit me before guard was broken.

    With no shield talent they hit me on average for 09-10 times before guard is broken.
    With shield talent on they hit me on average for 12-13 times before guard is broken.
    With no shield talent + Set bonus from Indomitable (+20% guard meter) they hit me on average for 13-14 times before guard is broken.
    With shield talent + Set bonus from Indomitable (+20 guard meter) they hit me on average for 12-13 times before guard is broken.

    Using both Shield talent + Set bonus from Indomitable seems to nullify each other in some way.

    I suggest you ONLY use the set bonus from Indomitable (+20 guard meter) and another Class Feature than Shield Talent until this bug is fixed. I think i will go for Reactive armor, the one that reflects 3% damage back to attacker.

    Shield Talent do give you extra guard meter but it wont stack with set bonus from Indomitable. If you use another GF armor set then using shield talent should be fine.


    This doesn't make much sense to me. It's not the amount of hits you're blocking it's the amount of damage. In my testing it was against Drow Assassins, all the small numbers were their throwing knife/poison abilities and the big numbers were their big slow sword swings. Where I took up to 9 hits, many of them were small damages, whereas when i took ~6 hits it was more larger damaging attacks. Both my examples show 6-9 hits doing ~ same damage before the guard fell. Going by number of hits doesn't really prove anything.
  • Options
    hinageshi79hinageshi79 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 246 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    GF is the most bugged class... I really hope developers will fix it, but I feel like they don't care GF's bugs.
  • Options
    dorfyrdorfyr Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kreicus wrote: »
    This doesn't make much sense to me. It's not the amount of hits you're blocking it's the amount of damage. In my testing it was against Drow Assassins, all the small numbers were their throwing knife/poison abilities and the big numbers were their big slow sword swings. Where I took up to 9 hits, many of them were small damages, whereas when i took ~6 hits it was more larger damaging attacks. Both my examples show 6-9 hits doing ~ same damage before the guard fell. Going by number of hits doesn't really prove anything.

    Did you read that i wrote on AVERAGE.. this means i took the average from 10 encounters with EACH setup on the exact same grp of mobs. I saw the difference and see no need to put down numbers. Point is Shield Talent and Indomitable do NOT stack, but they should!
  • Options
    kreicuskreicus Member Posts: 76
    edited June 2013
    dorfyr wrote: »
    Did you read that i wrote on AVERAGE.. this means i took the average from 10 encounters with EACH setup on the exact same grp of mobs. I saw the difference and see no need to put down numbers. Point is Shield Talent and Indomitable do NOT stack, but they should!

    Sure they stack, 0 plus 0 is 0.

    In my numbers they hit 6-9 times. But the times they hit 9 times is pretty much doe to those 3 smaller numbers, which I'm 90% sure is the poison dot they put on me. So I guess they hit 6 times with instant damage. They do this with or without any bonuses.
  • Options
    sominatorsominator Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Thanks for the note, all! We're looking into i!
    Proud member of Team Fencebane, official guild of the unofficial Neverwinter Adventure Hour!
  • Options
    lordgallenlordgallen Member, NW_CrypticDev, Cryptic Developers Posts: 91
    edited June 2013
    So I looked into this and it appears they stack fine. You do get additional guard.

    The thing that is likely throwing people off is that Guard can prevent WAY more damage than it looks like, which can mess up tests trying to count total damage, or number of hits. You can only lose so much Guard meter in a single hit, past that amount and the damage is thrown away. The Combat log does not display this information terribly well, and there is no ETA on when it would.

    Currently having more meter allows you to soak up that many more smaller attacks, but will have less impact when you are hit by very damaging attacks, since much of that damage is ignored rather than absorbed by your guard meter.

    It's possible that Guard Max needs to have a bigger impact on how much meter you can lose at once, but right this moment it does not. Certainly will be considered though.

    Guard uses this "Guard chunk" approach since if Guard was actually an incredibly deep pool, soaking up every point of damage, it would mean that smaller attacks could never move the meter. With the chunk approach, both big and small attacks can actually affect your Guard meter.

    Hope this helps clears it up a bit.
  • Options
    toughguyloltoughguylol Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    so does the guard talent increase the number of "chunks"? or keep the number of chunks the same and increase the damage absorbed per chunk?
  • Options
    lordgallenlordgallen Member, NW_CrypticDev, Cryptic Developers Posts: 91
    edited June 2013
    Shield Talent increases the pool size, which helps absorb more lesser hits.
    The chunks are currently based on percentage of your guard, so are less impacted by Guard increases.

    The chunks likely need to be a bit more tied into Guard bonuses so that extra guard can be better appreciated in more circumstances.
  • Options
    mhblis1mhblis1 Member Posts: 167 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Thank you very much for the replies and the explanation. It is especially hard to test these things without feedback from a log or one of you guys coming in and explaining the mechanics to us.
  • Options
    kreicuskreicus Member Posts: 76
    edited June 2013
    lordgallen wrote: »
    Shield Talent increases the pool size, which helps absorb more lesser hits.
    The chunks are currently based on percentage of your guard, so are less impacted by Guard increases.

    The chunks likely need to be a bit more tied into Guard bonuses so that extra guard can be better appreciated in more circumstances.


    Thanks for keepin an eye on the forums and for the reply lordgallen!

    EDIT: Anyone still following this thread, more information can be found here: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?380032-This-is-how-Block-works
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