Its been watered down by people who think slang in the english language can only mean the sum of all definitions of all single words in the term, which has never been how the english language works. People attempt to rules lawyer that if you cant "win" then its not "pay to win" - which is laughable. WHen they start using slang I pick apart their sentences to show them how absurd lawyering a definition of a slang term is. Everyones talking and typing is so loaded with slang nowdays and its pretty easy to point out that if english slang meant the sum of the definition of each single word, the entirety of the rules lawyering taking place would be nonsense using the same rules.
I dont have a clue what youre saying here, maybe because english isnt my native language.
All im saying is not long ago the widely accepted definition of P2W was if you hit a point in the game that it was impossible to go further unless you paid. Then came the new generation of players and now I have no idea what it means to the masses anymore.
Ill also pay that rude guy above 10g if he apologizes for telling him to shut his mouth.
Personally I don't spend money on f2p games because :
1- I don't play much (casual time) like the vast majority of gamers actually.
2- I'm an old school games player, which means that what you find hard is just usually too easy for me compared to what I beginnned with. Hence I don't really need any confort item or whatnot I'd have to pay for.
3- It's more challenging to play without paying a single cent.
4- I'm not in a hurry, and considering the state of the game that's better to take my time to let it be polished (PvP lover playing GWF here)
Wait until Gauntlgrim gets re-released. Those in my guild who have spiders were bragging about how easy it was to hunt down those with slower mounts before they get healed.
I like how you 'technically' agree, then try and say it doesn't count. You must have a strong back, moving those goal posts so often. An example was asked for, an example was given. Now quit 'whining' about how I'm technically right and put those goal posts back where you found them.
All that is needed to fix the fairness is to limit the paid mounts to the same speed while in PvP.
Are there other examples of P2W? I don't know. I haven't been fixated on giving the game such a label, I've been busy playing the game and reveling in the occasional #1 PvP spot using my free mount. After all, that gives me more pleasure than getting a paid mount from someone else and bragging how no money was _personally_ spent to gain an unfair advantage.
Im not moving anything, Im telling you that youre right but its not such a slam dunk (using that because you are talking about sporting objects) that it gives you the right to tell people to shut up.
Basically, I agree but the way you go about saying it makes you sound like a crybaby rager.
Is it really that bad other people pay for more content? Someone needs to pay the developers to keep adding free content to the game people can play for free. Seems very simple to me.
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bpskibbenheimsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 210Bounty Hunter
edited June 2013
God, the rabid attempts at people to convince one another that some factor in this game is either good or ad is absolutely insane.
If you like the game, you are a fanboy or a white knight or whatever.
If you don't like the game you are a whiner, crytard, and so on.
Seriously the back and fourth arguments are hilariously insane. It is like watching two people of differing religions try to convert one another.
Can we all just agree that we are all idiots, people who hate the game go play what you like, people who like the game go play the game, and keep discussions here aimed at constructive topics?
I wonder if any of this back and forth discussion will affect changes in the pay to win portion of the game? Do you really think it will alter the way the PW decides what should be bought with real money and such? I doubt it. They have made it very plain that they prefer the customers who have the compunction to drop hundreds of dollars on their game month after month. The measly $15 a month kind of player is of no consequence to them.... as it does not line their pockets. To me, a game that cant function when the average player is spending $15ish dollars on their bought items is a game that is only interested in soaking their playerbase for as much money as they can.
I dont have a clue what youre saying here, maybe because english isnt my native language.
All im saying is not long ago the widely accepted definition of P2W was if you hit a point in the game that it was impossible to go further unless you paid. Then came the new generation of players and now I have no idea what it means to the masses anymore.
Ill also pay that rude guy above 10g if he apologizes for telling him to shut his mouth.
Its not as black and white as being "impossible" - p2w also includes impractical. Ive seen games where farming a specific item may take ~120 days, or you can buy it today.
When you then consider how many item slots there are, and how long it would take to farm the same level of character power one can buy today, it becomes more and more of a p2w situation.
Another case is where people try to justify that because something drops in game its not p2w to buy it, but then theres less than 5 people who ever claimed to have gotten one to drop in game over a years worth of time, which makes rules lawyering that its not p2w due to that technicality hilarious.
The reductio ad absurdum analysis applies to these cases. If I bought character power and you had to farm for 2 years to attain that same level of power, buying it is p2w.
Yeah...I cant stand people who see something say free....and then they have the unmitigated gall to think that it's actually free......why they are completely out of touch with reality to think that some company would be....honest and factual....in the portrayal of their product.
Yeah...it's definately the customer's fault that the company is a unscrupolous, underhanded, shyster of a business.
Yeah...I cant stand people who see something say free....and then they have the unmitigated gall to think that it's actually free......why they are completely out of touch with reality to think that some company would be....honest and factual....in the portrayal of their product.
Yeah...it's definately the customer's fault that the company is a unscrupolous, underhanded, shyster of a business.
TOR. They sold CE 150 a pop. The thing as over priced as that was, when it came to official launch. They removed it because they are unique items. There is even a little vendor for CE only, since they pre ordered. However here it costs 200, and slowly I'm understanding its a "starter pack" they will continue to sell.
If I was investing that money pre release. I'd understand its to get the game off the ground. But keeping it on there even now. What I'm not understanding they are making a massive amount of money from everything to respect, to buying bag space.
Yet we haven't gotten an update since that Dungeon went offline and its already in afternoon on Monday. I figured they'd be more willing to commit.
I wonder if any of this back and forth discussion will affect changes in the pay to win portion of the game? Do you really think it will alter the way the PW decides what should be bought with real money and such? I doubt it. They have made it very plain that they prefer the customers who have the compunction to drop hundreds of dollars on their game month after month. The measly $15 a month kind of player is of no consequence to them.... as it does not line their pockets. To me, a game that cant function when the average player is spending $15ish dollars on their bought items is a game that is only interested in soaking their playerbase for as much money as they can.
I dont really believe the company will change, but that doesn't matter to me, what matters to me is that this generation understand that 30+15+25+40 (indefinately for whatever they deem you msut pay for, from the very basics to the extraordinary) in a month is not a better price than $60 one time and $15 a month. Because the sooner this generation realizes hwo they are being ripped off the sooner we can get away from these trash games.
Yet I have a complete T2 set with rank 8/9 enchants.
Also I use ancient dagger set from castle never.
I use greater soulforged armor enchant+ Greater vorpal.
The game is pay to win, now please let me know where you want to meet so I can get this 10gold off you.
I see you paid but what have you won?
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ghettogeniusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited June 2013
Well considering some English dictionaries have over 40 entries for the word "free", I am not surprised there is some confusion.
The words "free to play" is just another cleverly designed ambiguous catch phrase designed to get people interested and invested like, "no money down" or "all you can eat", where in fact hidden costs are made obvious at a later time.
Once upon a time, game companies didn't behave like this. But alas, desperation overcame them as they bled subscribers for various reasons, and instead of concentrating on putting out a quality product that was tested thoroughly and designed to deliver satisfaction-they opted for a first to market approach which rushed the client application out the door and was leveraged by an army of impatient gamers acting as an ad-hoc quality assurance team, further fueled by the insurgence of humanity's Internet and gambling(RNG) addiction.
Not true. Anyone can get the same gear you have just by playing the game......for a few years.
Paying to win means you buy the best gear without having to actually farm/kill anything for it.
You spend real money and dont have to do anything except enter the last 3 digits of your credit card to get the best gear.
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bpskibbenheimsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 210Bounty Hunter
edited June 2013
It is very simple. You can pay to have the best gear stuffs (and expect to pay every 4 months when they drop a new content pack that has better gear stuffs), or you can play and earn your fun gear stuffs. In PVE it shouldn't matter if someone else bought their epic gear stuffs. You aren't fighting against them but rather with them. What's there to get angry about?
PVP muddies this. PVP makes things more competitive, and everyone wants to be the bestestestestest. Fortunately man of the people who paid for their gear aren't that good, but there is still the TR who one hits you from stealth with LB just cause he is geared out of his skull; skills need not apply.
Honestly, taking pay to win as it is called won't fix this. In every p2p MMO people will find ways to achieve what they want. People buy geared out characters, people share their accounts to race towards time/commitment based achievements (think honor ranks in vanilla WoW), people exploit to farm the hardest dungeon, bots, so on. These issues are present in NW aswell as every other MMO.
People paying will have little effect on the fact that there are always going to be people with considerably more advantages than you. You will always have something to gripe about. It is the way of the world.
...
There is a certain definition to the word "insanity" that comes to mind ...
In PvP, the guy who spent $40 on a mount runs more than twice as fast to control points and healing drops as the free guy.
Pay 2 win means a tactical, measurable advantage over those who have not paid.
I'll take my 10g now and you can shut your mouth when it comes to calling people who accurately describe this game as pay2win as 'whiners'. Making accurate, valid complaints about something which is unfair is not whining, it is criticism. Sorry if your precious fanboy ego cannot handle it.
You are assuming that the person that didn't spend $40 dollars is completely unable to get that 110% speed mount. The entire basis on which your logic is founded is wrong because anyone can get an epic mount. Obviously the training books that are like 700k and then 2.1mil AD are wayyyyy over priced but they are there. The Zen exchange is there for you to trade your AD for zen (I'm sure I'll get raked with the "But someone has to pay for it!!! OMG cash grab!" but there will always be whiners) And the 3rd way, which no one ever seems to talk about, is by doing surveys on PW's website.
Granted those surveys generally take 15 minutes or so but if you have a computer and some extra time at work like me they are awesome lol. I have made over 2500 Zen absolutely free.
Also I got my Clydesdale mount for 2300 Zen ($23) so you don't necessarily need 4000 zen. I have an epic mount, extra character slots, plenty of bag space, and almost have 2 Hero's for my leadership crafting and I haven't spent any money.
There is absolutely nothing unattainable without paying money, and that is soooo much better than most F2P models. Almost every other F2P has at least certain things that you can only get with money, making NW the least pay 2 win game that I've ever played at least.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Paying to win means you buy the best gear without having to actually farm/kill anything for it.
You spend real money and dont have to do anything except enter the last 3 digits of your credit card to get the best gear.
How's this the meaning of pay-to-win? What exactly have you won that people can never win without paying?
I am not the biggest supporter of NW, as some regulars have started to notice.
But I have to defend NW on this whole F2P shouldn't be P2W argument because its flawed from the start. Always has been, always will be.
There are generally 2 kinds of players: casual and competetive, they come in different varieties but in the end of the day most of us are either one or the other.
Now, the casual player doesn't care about all the kinds of RL money shops. He might buy something - or even a lot - but he will rarely think about if or how that will make him stronger,cooler or better then other players. That does't mean he's lazy or uninterested in the game, he can still be on for 24 hours from time to time, form his own guild or lend newbies a helping hand on weekends - but he probably will rather play Foundry missions (or write one himself) than wait for the next Arena PvP event.
And then there is the competetive player. Comparing not only his chars but also himself with other players is his nature, and he is open to any challenge from being the first one to explore, own or defeat something to PvP. The Item shops are to him like any other RL shop where he might buy something that gives him an advantege of any kind over others. That doesn't mean he's a narrow-minded powergamer, he can still be a great roleplayer or foundry author - he is just more like an athlete who's chosen discipline is MMOs and does his best to excell at it.
But here is the catch.....an athlete needs a level playing field and MMOs that let you buy all sorts of things with RL money are about the opposite.
So the bottom line is: Competetive players should either avoid F2P games with item shops and other RL money markets and play subscription MMOs with none of these or pay the price - literally.
In case you find my grammar or spelling weird ---> native german speaker
If you had read more than that line you would have seen that I haven't spent a penny on the game, $23 dollars is just the dollar value of 2300 Zen
Okay, sorry, you are right. I didn't see that. But you sort of see my point, don't you? I am not trying to take away the right of anyone to pour a lot of real money into an online game, as wasteful as that seems to me. But the mere fact that a horse, if you can find a good deal, in a video game costs the equivalence of $23 or $40... that is just over the top. And people can split hairs all they want by saying that this game is not p2w, in the face of that kind of activity, but they are kidding themselves. You either pay money to get what you want, spend hours grinding in one way or another to get the ingame currency needed, or you have the skills to play the market, spending hours of time doing that. Like I said before, when they flooded the market with AD with their Founders packs, they assured that items would cost a prohibitive amount of AD that really only people who devout hours and hours of activity or who spend lots of real money can even keep up.
Oh I completely agree there, a lot of things on the cash shop are overpriced no doubt! I'm just saying there ways other than spending money to get those items.
Seriously if you haven't checked out the Earn Zen page on PW's website check it out, tons of free zen. Although just like in the game you trade time for this zen so I would recommend it more for people with office jobs lol
Also I think AH prices will steadily go down as more and more people gear up and actually run T2's and CN
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Any time you can take real life money and buy end game gear, the game becomes pay to win. It does not matter if you buy the gear with cash or change the cash into zen and then into AD, the bottom line is your cash bought the gear.
I'll be waiting for my 10 gold...better yet, give it to the next poster because I no longer play this money grab. I have more fun on the forums at work than I ever had in game.
So the bottom line is: Competetive players should either avoid F2P games with item shops and other RL money markets and play subscription MMOs with none of these or pay the price - literally.
And that means your so-called "competetive players" should either adapt to the changing environment and become more causal or retire when the few remaining mmo become extinct or shrink to the size of a few thousand players (bots included).
Any time you can take real life money and buy end game gear, the game becomes pay to win. It does not matter if you buy the gear with cash or change the cash into zen and then into AD, the bottom line is your cash bought the gear.
I'll be waiting for my 10 gold...better yet, give it to the next poster because I no longer play this money grab. I have more fun on the forums at work than I ever had in game.
If your definition of pay to win is you can buy good gear with real money then isn't every F2P game P2W?
What makes a game pay to win is if you can only get past a certain point or can only get the best gear by paying real money for it, thats not even close to how this game is structured.
lol how do you think the first group of people that got to 60 completed end game dungeons? you think they bought the gear that was magically in the AH before players put it up? They geared up in T1 dungeons to beat T2 and then they geared up in T2 dungeons to beat CN. And now they are putting that gear up for 20 times what its worth and making the AH just stupid but thats another topic.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Comments
I dont have a clue what youre saying here, maybe because english isnt my native language.
All im saying is not long ago the widely accepted definition of P2W was if you hit a point in the game that it was impossible to go further unless you paid. Then came the new generation of players and now I have no idea what it means to the masses anymore.
Ill also pay that rude guy above 10g if he apologizes for telling him to shut his mouth.
1- I don't play much (casual time) like the vast majority of gamers actually.
2- I'm an old school games player, which means that what you find hard is just usually too easy for me compared to what I beginnned with. Hence I don't really need any confort item or whatnot I'd have to pay for.
3- It's more challenging to play without paying a single cent.
4- I'm not in a hurry, and considering the state of the game that's better to take my time to let it be polished (PvP lover playing GWF here)
Im not moving anything, Im telling you that youre right but its not such a slam dunk (using that because you are talking about sporting objects) that it gives you the right to tell people to shut up.
Basically, I agree but the way you go about saying it makes you sound like a crybaby rager.
If you like the game, you are a fanboy or a white knight or whatever.
If you don't like the game you are a whiner, crytard, and so on.
Seriously the back and fourth arguments are hilariously insane. It is like watching two people of differing religions try to convert one another.
Can we all just agree that we are all idiots, people who hate the game go play what you like, people who like the game go play the game, and keep discussions here aimed at constructive topics?
You have the freedom to experience every basic feature in the game and you also have the freedom to spend money to enhance your experience by paying.
Its not as black and white as being "impossible" - p2w also includes impractical. Ive seen games where farming a specific item may take ~120 days, or you can buy it today.
When you then consider how many item slots there are, and how long it would take to farm the same level of character power one can buy today, it becomes more and more of a p2w situation.
Another case is where people try to justify that because something drops in game its not p2w to buy it, but then theres less than 5 people who ever claimed to have gotten one to drop in game over a years worth of time, which makes rules lawyering that its not p2w due to that technicality hilarious.
The reductio ad absurdum analysis applies to these cases. If I bought character power and you had to farm for 2 years to attain that same level of power, buying it is p2w.
Yeah...it's definately the customer's fault that the company is a unscrupolous, underhanded, shyster of a business.
This game does not have the content, or the features to demand a $60 price tag, nor a $15 a month sub fee.
The game is free to play because it has to be.
TOR. They sold CE 150 a pop. The thing as over priced as that was, when it came to official launch. They removed it because they are unique items. There is even a little vendor for CE only, since they pre ordered. However here it costs 200, and slowly I'm understanding its a "starter pack" they will continue to sell.
If I was investing that money pre release. I'd understand its to get the game off the ground. But keeping it on there even now. What I'm not understanding they are making a massive amount of money from everything to respect, to buying bag space.
Yet we haven't gotten an update since that Dungeon went offline and its already in afternoon on Monday. I figured they'd be more willing to commit.
Yet I have a complete T2 set with rank 8/9 enchants.
Also I use ancient dagger set from castle never.
I use greater soulforged armor enchant+ Greater vorpal.
The game is pay to win, now please let me know where you want to meet so I can get this 10gold off you.
Not true. Anyone can get the same gear you have just by playing the game......for a few years.
I see you paid but what have you won?
The words "free to play" is just another cleverly designed ambiguous catch phrase designed to get people interested and invested like, "no money down" or "all you can eat", where in fact hidden costs are made obvious at a later time.
Once upon a time, game companies didn't behave like this. But alas, desperation overcame them as they bled subscribers for various reasons, and instead of concentrating on putting out a quality product that was tested thoroughly and designed to deliver satisfaction-they opted for a first to market approach which rushed the client application out the door and was leveraged by an army of impatient gamers acting as an ad-hoc quality assurance team, further fueled by the insurgence of humanity's Internet and gambling(RNG) addiction.
Paying to win means you buy the best gear without having to actually farm/kill anything for it.
You spend real money and dont have to do anything except enter the last 3 digits of your credit card to get the best gear.
PVP muddies this. PVP makes things more competitive, and everyone wants to be the bestestestestest. Fortunately man of the people who paid for their gear aren't that good, but there is still the TR who one hits you from stealth with LB just cause he is geared out of his skull; skills need not apply.
Honestly, taking pay to win as it is called won't fix this. In every p2p MMO people will find ways to achieve what they want. People buy geared out characters, people share their accounts to race towards time/commitment based achievements (think honor ranks in vanilla WoW), people exploit to farm the hardest dungeon, bots, so on. These issues are present in NW aswell as every other MMO.
People paying will have little effect on the fact that there are always going to be people with considerably more advantages than you. You will always have something to gripe about. It is the way of the world.
...
There is a certain definition to the word "insanity" that comes to mind ...
You are assuming that the person that didn't spend $40 dollars is completely unable to get that 110% speed mount. The entire basis on which your logic is founded is wrong because anyone can get an epic mount. Obviously the training books that are like 700k and then 2.1mil AD are wayyyyy over priced but they are there. The Zen exchange is there for you to trade your AD for zen (I'm sure I'll get raked with the "But someone has to pay for it!!! OMG cash grab!" but there will always be whiners) And the 3rd way, which no one ever seems to talk about, is by doing surveys on PW's website.
Granted those surveys generally take 15 minutes or so but if you have a computer and some extra time at work like me they are awesome lol. I have made over 2500 Zen absolutely free.
Also I got my Clydesdale mount for 2300 Zen ($23) so you don't necessarily need 4000 zen. I have an epic mount, extra character slots, plenty of bag space, and almost have 2 Hero's for my leadership crafting and I haven't spent any money.
There is absolutely nothing unattainable without paying money, and that is soooo much better than most F2P models. Almost every other F2P has at least certain things that you can only get with money, making NW the least pay 2 win game that I've ever played at least.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
How's this the meaning of pay-to-win? What exactly have you won that people can never win without paying?
But I have to defend NW on this whole F2P shouldn't be P2W argument because its flawed from the start. Always has been, always will be.
There are generally 2 kinds of players: casual and competetive, they come in different varieties but in the end of the day most of us are either one or the other.
Now, the casual player doesn't care about all the kinds of RL money shops. He might buy something - or even a lot - but he will rarely think about if or how that will make him stronger,cooler or better then other players. That does't mean he's lazy or uninterested in the game, he can still be on for 24 hours from time to time, form his own guild or lend newbies a helping hand on weekends - but he probably will rather play Foundry missions (or write one himself) than wait for the next Arena PvP event.
And then there is the competetive player. Comparing not only his chars but also himself with other players is his nature, and he is open to any challenge from being the first one to explore, own or defeat something to PvP. The Item shops are to him like any other RL shop where he might buy something that gives him an advantege of any kind over others. That doesn't mean he's a narrow-minded powergamer, he can still be a great roleplayer or foundry author - he is just more like an athlete who's chosen discipline is MMOs and does his best to excell at it.
But here is the catch.....an athlete needs a level playing field and MMOs that let you buy all sorts of things with RL money are about the opposite.
So the bottom line is: Competetive players should either avoid F2P games with item shops and other RL money markets and play subscription MMOs with none of these or pay the price - literally.
Seriously if you haven't checked out the Earn Zen page on PW's website check it out, tons of free zen. Although just like in the game you trade time for this zen so I would recommend it more for people with office jobs lol
Also I think AH prices will steadily go down as more and more people gear up and actually run T2's and CN
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I'll be waiting for my 10 gold...better yet, give it to the next poster because I no longer play this money grab. I have more fun on the forums at work than I ever had in game.
And that means your so-called "competetive players" should either adapt to the changing environment and become more causal or retire when the few remaining mmo become extinct or shrink to the size of a few thousand players (bots included).
If your definition of pay to win is you can buy good gear with real money then isn't every F2P game P2W?
What makes a game pay to win is if you can only get past a certain point or can only get the best gear by paying real money for it, thats not even close to how this game is structured.
lol how do you think the first group of people that got to 60 completed end game dungeons? you think they bought the gear that was magically in the AH before players put it up? They geared up in T1 dungeons to beat T2 and then they geared up in T2 dungeons to beat CN. And now they are putting that gear up for 20 times what its worth and making the AH just stupid but thats another topic.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
TIME!
/the end