There is no balance at all. I realy do not understand: why duel on PvP battlefield is only about one donge, first stun, this is realy stupid and win who have better ping.
Better no comment Greater Tenebrous class
Even DC can overkill.
So, there is no balance at all and tno balance at all. (RD)
I wonder why GTE/SF/Vorpal are SUPER expensive? oh because they are "rare-er" than other enchants... huh... and are they better? Oh they are? So let me get this straight... The rarist,most expensive enchant is also the best? GO figure!
This thread tells me that the majority of players (who voted) think that 3/5 classes are OP in pvp....
A few months ago it was "TR/CW/DC" who were OP and noww the tables have turned so GF/GWF are very strong and bordering OP... Maybe they are getting close to balanced and people just keep finding better ways to play their class making them OP? I mean...
If GFs can 2 shot rogues, rogues can 2 shot CW, CW gets pwnd by GWF doesnt that sound a little like rock paper scissors?
I have seen geared CWs destroy PVP, I am a geared Gf and destory, I see TRs 2 shot ppl, I see DCs keep some1 alive while 2 ppl focus him... I have seen a geared GWF hold a point against 3 people.... I have seen each class shine in what their class is for...
Is any best 1v1? Well GWF is probably best 1v1 class right now followed by a GF/TR, but does that mean they are "the best" class? I would wager that a team of 1 of each class would stomp a team of 5 of any single class?
Is that not "Close" to balanced?
The ONLY thing I would change about the game is retool some of the damage attacks (probably tone down base crit severity by a flat 25% to a base of +50%) This would do a TON to pvp survivability.
Way I see it, any class with a skill to take control away from another player will be subjected to whining and accused of OPness. People just *hate* when they don't have control. You only need to look at some youtube or stream of either PvP or PvE...and hear the repeated, frustrated keybashing whenever a toon is controlled.
I'm actually a bit surprised that CW's didn't make it as number 2, but I guess the stunlock GWF build and the Bouncing Betty GF build have a lot of people displeased with being used as a ragdoll. But frankly, that 2 second choke or even the black whole will allow most people to walk away from, not so much with GWF's and GF's.
And then of course the ever notorious 'rouge' on number 1.... with perma-stealth allowing for all those extreme soulforged-tene-procs which adds that much more fuel to the always present dislike of stealth in general and rogues in particular.
So I'm just wondering what all this OPness is based on. Is it 1 vs 1 in PvP, is it in PvP TEAM scores, dungeons, solo question, survivability...?
And how many rocks thinks scissors are fine but paper is much too OP?
The ONLY thing I would change about the game is retool some of the damage attacks (probably tone down base crit severity by a flat 25% to a base of +50%) This would do a TON to pvp survivability.
Not sure of the mathematics, but I tend to agree. Some fights seem to go much too fast. On the other hand though, from my own pvp experience and watching some videos that people posted, in hindsight it does make sense. Some debuffs are pretty hard to miss but will severly influence the damage you take. For example a CW and TR teaming up with enfeebling and Cos...that will hit, and kill, from apparently nowhere, especially when you're running away.
But I think it's a Pandora's box too. Damage is tuned to cooldown time, tweak one and you may end up really messing up the other. And I personally think the scaling and proc-rates of certain enchantrunes should be tweaked before core skills of any class.
Not sure of the mathematics, but I tend to agree. Some fights seem to go much too fast. On the other hand though, from my own pvp experience and watching some videos that people posted, in hindsight it does make sense. Some debuffs are pretty hard to miss but will severly influence the damage you take. For example a CW and TR teaming up with enfeebling and Cos...that will hit, and kill, from apparently nowhere, especially when you're running away.
But I think it's a Pandora's box too. Damage is tuned to cooldown time, tweak one and you may end up really messing up the other. And I personally think the scaling and proc-rates of certain enchantrunes should be tweaked before core skills of any class.
I agree 100% to this, retune enchants before class skills. Damage IS based around CDs and I have NO problem with that BUT the problem is people are stacking SO much damage now that it becomes less of a skill battle and more about who can spam the CDs faster or who gets the lucky dive roll for the crits or even who has the faster registry because you can nuke some1 with just a fast rotation of CDs.
Think back to leveling (I am leveling an alt so this is fresh to me atm) PVP battles lasted 2-3x longer. I can go through 2-3 rotations of CDs to kill someone... While it sometimes does get a little long and frustrating.. I think there is a balance in the middle. Currently PVP is too fast and players can damage too much USING enchants.
If you tone down crit severity, vorpal enchant, AND Tene enchants (I have a thread on this btw) Then it will address this issue
And clerics will be MORE valued and possible OP again since the nuke ability will be diminished making healing MORE valuable than before...
Its a constant juggling act BUT the damage discrepancy between enchants/no enchants is huge and honestly makes the imbalance. I have 6 greater tenes as a GF and I can roll any pug and even do great in most premades (unless very coordinated).
Why? Well MOST will try and tout their "leet skillz" but in all honesty, its the gear combined with just a non-downy player... Give an average player a full GTE GWF and if they know basics of the game, they can steam roll others...
Gear SHOULD matter but it seems like its a HUGE HUGE gap between geared vs nongeared... I (on the side of geared) would like that gap dropped...
That's how things are balanced. Some classes are built to destroy other classes.
You said that PvP is more or less balanced because everyone has a counter class that does well against them and I wanted to know which class Clerics counter. Is it Rogues, GWF, GF or CW?
If my cleric was a threat to ONE class I would be satified with your reasoning but saying that Clerics are good ONLY when carried by a team of other players is not acceptable. If my cleric specs DPS shouldn't I be a threat to SOME other class or is healing/support other class that actually DO something in PvP the ONLY option? Why have DPS feats at all then?
How about my PvP score? I don't get any ranking for supporting/healing other players so how am I supposed to do well in PvP?
That's how things are balanced. Some classes are built to destroy other classes.
I'm a cleric, and I dont whine about rogues being OP, or any other class for that matter. I already heal through a stupid amount of CC's, and rogue/cw dailys, the only thing that puts me down is a "very seldom' one shot from Rogues, or a constant stun lock from 3+ players, or two very good class's that can keep me locked.
I think the problem is a large majority of players are always strolling the forums looking for that "perfect" cookie-cutter build, when honestly I dont believe there really is one. Those players need to spend some more time practicing, and perfecting there build, instead of always changing ****. Since beta started on the 25th. I've had two builds with my DC. One was similar to Deistiks crit build, and the other I made my own, which I am using now, and I absolutely love it. Most rogues when I 1 vs 1 them, end up trying to run away, when they see me go from 10% life to 100% in about 2 seconds.
In my opinion dudes the only real "balancing" that needs to be implemented, is introducing Diminishing Returns.
As far as the upgrades to GWF, still, I literally dont even run, or straif from them during 1 vs 1 fights. I laugh as I'm pouring out heals, healing through there dmg. I've met ONE.......1, GWF..that I chose to actually avoid his dmg, his name is Mastado or something on Mindflayer, hes very good, and hes generally always duo'ing on TS with a friend, so they coordinate there stun locks.
And clerics will be MORE valued and possible OP again since the nuke ability will be diminished making healing MORE valuable than before...
Where are you getting the information that nuke ability is going to be diminished? I haven't seen any Cryptic statements on that topic or is it your opinion that it should be done?
Where are you getting the information that nuke ability is going to be diminished? I haven't seen any Cryptic statements on that topic or is it your opinion that it should be done?
Its really simple bro... IF tene damage gets a nerf in PVP AND is turned into a DoT (see my thread about this) AND you REDUCE base crit severity by 25% AND reduce Vorpal enchant proportional 25% That will do a TON to the cheese ability of being able to 2 shot people... Will it still happen? Sure on occasion, but it wont be the norm with those modifications. You will see less TRs running around 2 shoting or CoS ing with tene enchants to nuke, ALL this says...
IF these changes happen, nuking will be diminished SOME meaning that a DC is going to add MORE value in keeping a target alive, or have a better ability to do so...
If all classes get that "nerf" via nerfing those BiS enchants, you will see a big damage nerf across the board in PVP. If damage gets nerfed in PVP healing is RELATIVELY buffed (in perspective). Another way to say it is look ad the damage in versus healing done...
In order for healing to be STRONGER, you can either buff healing OR nerf damage... It does the dame end thing. If you nerf damage, it buffs healing aka buffing DCs MEANING they will 1) survive more in PVP and 2) provide MORE value then currently to groups in PVP...
So in the end IF they nerf the enchants and base crit severity, DCs will be MORE wanted and MORE powerful in PVP.....
I want to say one more thing about this "cleric sucks in pvp" stuff I keep seeing.
I am a huge pvp'r, always have been, I spend most of time in this game now pvp'ing, cuz I'm bored of the all the exploiting dungeons and i have the gear I want. All my enchants I earned, they are all rank 5, with a fiew rank 6. I have lesser weapon and armor enchants. Yes there are tons of people complaining about the cleric class. But I have met countless clerics in pvp that are absolutely irreplaceable. I have been in matches, against other 1 cleric teams, where during the initial push for the middle cap, every single team member on both sides died, but me and the other cleric. I would say, that a cleric being able to stay in the middle for 3 complete rotations of people dieing, spawning, and coming back for more, is pretty ****ing awesome. Most would call that "op".
The cleric class is not an "easy mode" class to play in this game, takes alot of practice and skill to be a viable team member in both pve, and pvp. We are out there. I am by no means calling myself "amazing, or the best". But i am having no problem at all in PvP atm.
I do agree some things need to be changed with the cleric, pretty much just the removal of Righteousness. But I guarantee you, "when" it is removed, or atleast toned down, this forum is going to be FLOODED, with crys from people NOT being able to kill clerics.
So in endstate, I guess what I'm getting at is yes, please continue flooding the forums with how bad you all think clerics are, because guys like me are going to be unkillable when we do get a buff.
any class with greater tenebrous ench are op, that s all.
Uriziel TR lev 60 Gear Rating 12400
Uriziel GF Gear Rating 14800
David Grave CW 10500 Gear Rating 6000 recovery(kripparian build)
Uriziem Monk Completionist 28 past life , DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
ex officer and founder of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild, now on NEVERWINTER picture sharing
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mrpaydayMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited June 2013
rouges can 1 hit anyone if same gearscore. I just got hit 30k buy a rouge in t1
You can give Clerics as many greater tenebrous ench as you want and they aren't going to be killing anyone
i m not sure , try to make a cleric full damage with hight const+ best gear for pvp(35k hp)6 or 7 greater tenebrous, he might surprise you.
the tenebrous ench ruin the game, they must be nerfed.
I have played many games, but this is definitely the game more pay to win ever played
Uriziel TR lev 60 Gear Rating 12400
Uriziel GF Gear Rating 14800
David Grave CW 10500 Gear Rating 6000 recovery(kripparian build)
Uriziem Monk Completionist 28 past life , DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
ex officer and founder of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild, now on NEVERWINTER picture sharing
I am asking which class 1v1 fears fighting a cleric?
You said that PvP is more or less balanced because everyone has a counter class that does well against them and I wanted to know which class Clerics counter. Is it Rogues, GWF, GF or CW?
If my cleric was a threat to ONE class I would be satified with your reasoning but saying that Clerics are good ONLY when carried by a team of other players is not acceptable. If my cleric specs DPS shouldn't I be a threat to SOME other class or is healing/support other class that actually DO something in PvP the ONLY option? Why have DPS feats at all then?
How about my PvP score? I don't get any ranking for supporting/healing other players so how am I supposed to do well in PvP?
rouges can 1 hit anyone if same gearscore. I just got hit 30k buy a rouge in t1
thats because he was using Lurker assault daily , it increases the outcoming damage by 25%. and if he was stealthed that will apply the combat advantage bonus too.
Comments
the results line up with noobs/fresh 60s pvp. Rogues in all greens are vastly ahead of any other class in all greens, no doubt about it.
They don't line up with competitive top geared pvp that my guild does. It's not an observation, its a fact.
For heavily geared, skilled, top pvp'ers, gwfs will always win domination. The recent buffs made them plain unstoppable for domination.
If the mode was instead team deathmatch, it would be more balanced.
-Epic Dread Vault Crushed.
Characters (Dragon): Axer (60 Guardian, Leader of Crush It!), Controller (60 Wizard), Warlocker (60 Warlock)
Better no comment Greater Tenebrous class
Even DC can overkill.
So, there is no balance at all and tno balance at all. (RD)
You mean their deaths? Then yes I agree they do die the most in every PvP match
I generally always have the least amount of deaths. I think your clerics need differant builds
Just sayin =/
Soulforged and Vorpal are up there, too.
I wonder why GTE/SF/Vorpal are SUPER expensive? oh because they are "rare-er" than other enchants... huh... and are they better? Oh they are? So let me get this straight... The rarist,most expensive enchant is also the best? GO figure!
This thread tells me that the majority of players (who voted) think that 3/5 classes are OP in pvp....
A few months ago it was "TR/CW/DC" who were OP and noww the tables have turned so GF/GWF are very strong and bordering OP... Maybe they are getting close to balanced and people just keep finding better ways to play their class making them OP? I mean...
If GFs can 2 shot rogues, rogues can 2 shot CW, CW gets pwnd by GWF doesnt that sound a little like rock paper scissors?
I have seen geared CWs destroy PVP, I am a geared Gf and destory, I see TRs 2 shot ppl, I see DCs keep some1 alive while 2 ppl focus him... I have seen a geared GWF hold a point against 3 people.... I have seen each class shine in what their class is for...
Is any best 1v1? Well GWF is probably best 1v1 class right now followed by a GF/TR, but does that mean they are "the best" class? I would wager that a team of 1 of each class would stomp a team of 5 of any single class?
Is that not "Close" to balanced?
The ONLY thing I would change about the game is retool some of the damage attacks (probably tone down base crit severity by a flat 25% to a base of +50%) This would do a TON to pvp survivability.
I'm actually a bit surprised that CW's didn't make it as number 2, but I guess the stunlock GWF build and the Bouncing Betty GF build have a lot of people displeased with being used as a ragdoll. But frankly, that 2 second choke or even the black whole will allow most people to walk away from, not so much with GWF's and GF's.
And then of course the ever notorious 'rouge' on number 1.... with perma-stealth allowing for all those extreme soulforged-tene-procs which adds that much more fuel to the always present dislike of stealth in general and rogues in particular.
So I'm just wondering what all this OPness is based on. Is it 1 vs 1 in PvP, is it in PvP TEAM scores, dungeons, solo question, survivability...?
And how many rocks thinks scissors are fine but paper is much too OP?
Rogues whine that GFs and GWFs are OP.
GFs and GWFs hates CWs CC.
That's how things are balanced. Some classes are built to destroy other classes.
Not sure of the mathematics, but I tend to agree. Some fights seem to go much too fast. On the other hand though, from my own pvp experience and watching some videos that people posted, in hindsight it does make sense. Some debuffs are pretty hard to miss but will severly influence the damage you take. For example a CW and TR teaming up with enfeebling and Cos...that will hit, and kill, from apparently nowhere, especially when you're running away.
But I think it's a Pandora's box too. Damage is tuned to cooldown time, tweak one and you may end up really messing up the other. And I personally think the scaling and proc-rates of certain enchantrunes should be tweaked before core skills of any class.
So which class gets destroyed by clerics?
Every class with a decent cleric in the opposing team.
I agree 100% to this, retune enchants before class skills. Damage IS based around CDs and I have NO problem with that BUT the problem is people are stacking SO much damage now that it becomes less of a skill battle and more about who can spam the CDs faster or who gets the lucky dive roll for the crits or even who has the faster registry because you can nuke some1 with just a fast rotation of CDs.
Think back to leveling (I am leveling an alt so this is fresh to me atm) PVP battles lasted 2-3x longer. I can go through 2-3 rotations of CDs to kill someone... While it sometimes does get a little long and frustrating.. I think there is a balance in the middle. Currently PVP is too fast and players can damage too much USING enchants.
If you tone down crit severity, vorpal enchant, AND Tene enchants (I have a thread on this btw) Then it will address this issue And clerics will be MORE valued and possible OP again since the nuke ability will be diminished making healing MORE valuable than before...
Its a constant juggling act BUT the damage discrepancy between enchants/no enchants is huge and honestly makes the imbalance. I have 6 greater tenes as a GF and I can roll any pug and even do great in most premades (unless very coordinated).
Why? Well MOST will try and tout their "leet skillz" but in all honesty, its the gear combined with just a non-downy player... Give an average player a full GTE GWF and if they know basics of the game, they can steam roll others...
Gear SHOULD matter but it seems like its a HUGE HUGE gap between geared vs nongeared... I (on the side of geared) would like that gap dropped...
I am asking which class 1v1 fears fighting a cleric?
You said that PvP is more or less balanced because everyone has a counter class that does well against them and I wanted to know which class Clerics counter. Is it Rogues, GWF, GF or CW?
If my cleric was a threat to ONE class I would be satified with your reasoning but saying that Clerics are good ONLY when carried by a team of other players is not acceptable. If my cleric specs DPS shouldn't I be a threat to SOME other class or is healing/support other class that actually DO something in PvP the ONLY option? Why have DPS feats at all then?
How about my PvP score? I don't get any ranking for supporting/healing other players so how am I supposed to do well in PvP?
I'm a cleric, and I dont whine about rogues being OP, or any other class for that matter. I already heal through a stupid amount of CC's, and rogue/cw dailys, the only thing that puts me down is a "very seldom' one shot from Rogues, or a constant stun lock from 3+ players, or two very good class's that can keep me locked.
I think the problem is a large majority of players are always strolling the forums looking for that "perfect" cookie-cutter build, when honestly I dont believe there really is one. Those players need to spend some more time practicing, and perfecting there build, instead of always changing ****. Since beta started on the 25th. I've had two builds with my DC. One was similar to Deistiks crit build, and the other I made my own, which I am using now, and I absolutely love it. Most rogues when I 1 vs 1 them, end up trying to run away, when they see me go from 10% life to 100% in about 2 seconds.
In my opinion dudes the only real "balancing" that needs to be implemented, is introducing Diminishing Returns.
As far as the upgrades to GWF, still, I literally dont even run, or straif from them during 1 vs 1 fights. I laugh as I'm pouring out heals, healing through there dmg. I've met ONE.......1, GWF..that I chose to actually avoid his dmg, his name is Mastado or something on Mindflayer, hes very good, and hes generally always duo'ing on TS with a friend, so they coordinate there stun locks.
Where are you getting the information that nuke ability is going to be diminished? I haven't seen any Cryptic statements on that topic or is it your opinion that it should be done?
Its really simple bro... IF tene damage gets a nerf in PVP AND is turned into a DoT (see my thread about this) AND you REDUCE base crit severity by 25% AND reduce Vorpal enchant proportional 25% That will do a TON to the cheese ability of being able to 2 shot people... Will it still happen? Sure on occasion, but it wont be the norm with those modifications. You will see less TRs running around 2 shoting or CoS ing with tene enchants to nuke, ALL this says...
IF these changes happen, nuking will be diminished SOME meaning that a DC is going to add MORE value in keeping a target alive, or have a better ability to do so...
If all classes get that "nerf" via nerfing those BiS enchants, you will see a big damage nerf across the board in PVP. If damage gets nerfed in PVP healing is RELATIVELY buffed (in perspective). Another way to say it is look ad the damage in versus healing done...
In order for healing to be STRONGER, you can either buff healing OR nerf damage... It does the dame end thing. If you nerf damage, it buffs healing aka buffing DCs MEANING they will 1) survive more in PVP and 2) provide MORE value then currently to groups in PVP...
So in the end IF they nerf the enchants and base crit severity, DCs will be MORE wanted and MORE powerful in PVP.....
I am a huge pvp'r, always have been, I spend most of time in this game now pvp'ing, cuz I'm bored of the all the exploiting dungeons and i have the gear I want. All my enchants I earned, they are all rank 5, with a fiew rank 6. I have lesser weapon and armor enchants. Yes there are tons of people complaining about the cleric class. But I have met countless clerics in pvp that are absolutely irreplaceable. I have been in matches, against other 1 cleric teams, where during the initial push for the middle cap, every single team member on both sides died, but me and the other cleric. I would say, that a cleric being able to stay in the middle for 3 complete rotations of people dieing, spawning, and coming back for more, is pretty ****ing awesome. Most would call that "op".
The cleric class is not an "easy mode" class to play in this game, takes alot of practice and skill to be a viable team member in both pve, and pvp. We are out there. I am by no means calling myself "amazing, or the best". But i am having no problem at all in PvP atm.
I do agree some things need to be changed with the cleric, pretty much just the removal of Righteousness. But I guarantee you, "when" it is removed, or atleast toned down, this forum is going to be FLOODED, with crys from people NOT being able to kill clerics.
So in endstate, I guess what I'm getting at is yes, please continue flooding the forums with how bad you all think clerics are, because guys like me are going to be unkillable when we do get a buff.
Thanks boys!
Uriziel GF Gear Rating 14800
David Grave CW 10500 Gear Rating 6000 recovery(kripparian build)
Uriziem Monk Completionist 28 past life , DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
ex officer and founder of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild, now on NEVERWINTER
picture sharing
You can give Clerics as many greater tenebrous ench as you want and they aren't going to be killing anyone
the tenebrous ench ruin the game, they must be nerfed.
I have played many games, but this is definitely the game more pay to win ever played
Uriziel GF Gear Rating 14800
David Grave CW 10500 Gear Rating 6000 recovery(kripparian build)
Uriziem Monk Completionist 28 past life , DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
ex officer and founder of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild, now on NEVERWINTER
picture sharing
Clerics arent supposed to destroy anyone, they are a support characters with low dmg and 1 CC ability.
They arent supposed to "kill" they are supposed to "support" the team's damage dealers.
If you don't like how cleric works , then a healer class is certainly not the right class for you.
thats because he was using Lurker assault daily , it increases the outcoming damage by 25%. and if he was stealthed that will apply the combat advantage bonus too.
Why did Cryptic give them a DPS feat tree if DPS was not an option?
The same reason why they made their GG's PvP gears having lots of life steal.
For YOLO SWAG, nothing more.
Why do clerics have a DPS feat tree if DPS is not an option for them?
Maybe Cryptic wanted to troll you ?