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Why no one plays Foundry missions

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  • redneckroninredneckronin Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    katah1969 wrote: »
    You are kidding right? Obviously you are new to this type of game. Loot *IS* everything! It is the reason you level up. Period. End of story.

    That would be like saying "death is the ONLY thing that matters about life".

    You're a "destination" type of person.

    I'm a "journey" type of person.

    I think it was Ursula K. Le Guin that said "It is good to have an end to journey toward, but it is the journey that matters in the end."

    All The Best
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  • untamedengineer#6733 untamedengineer Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    For me, working on leveling up my 4th and 5th level 60 character as a solo player, Foundry missions are not worth my time due to poor mob scaling at the higher level. At the higher levels and for the reward they give they are simply too costly to run when you need to utilize 40 or so greater healing potion in order to complete a single mission. I love the aspect of being able to explore the story lines that some people are developing and would love to be able to reasonably run more of them once I cap out a character.

    The way that I currently seeing the mob scaling operating is strictly based off of a pure level basis and not taking into account gear score, class design, etc. Difficulty scaling of any instance zoned should instead be based on a combination of gear score for each given class and the number of characters in each instance. For example a level 60 character geared out in T2 set armor and such would expectedly experience a harder instance that a freshly leveled 60 character with a much lower gear score.

    Without the Foundry missions to run, once I have all my characters capped out there will be very little interest for me to stay with the game.
  • cyguard1cyguard1 Member Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    dave49424 wrote: »
    For me, working on leveling up my 4th and 5th level 60 character as a solo player, Foundry missions are not worth my time due to poor mob scaling at the higher level. At the higher levels and for the reward they give they are simply too costly to run when you need to utilize 40 or so greater healing potion in order to complete a single mission. I love the aspect of being able to explore the story lines that some people are developing and would love to be able to reasonably run more of them once I cap out a character.

    The way that I currently seeing the mob scaling operating is strictly based off of a pure level basis and not taking into account gear score, class design, etc. Difficulty scaling of any instance zoned should instead be based on a combination of gear score for each given class and the number of characters in each instance. For example a level 60 character geared out in T2 set armor and such would expectedly experience a harder instance that a freshly leveled 60 character with a much lower gear score.

    Without the Foundry missions to run, once I have all my characters capped out there will be very little interest for me to stay with the game.

    And this is a major problem as I see it with the entire game, not just foundry. After two months of being live, you are already working on your 4th and 5th level 60 toons. As long as power leveling players zerg through the quests and burn up the content made by devs, coupled with the restrictions applied to the foundry, we will always be the redheaded step children. While there are those of us that are working towards making good story quests, the focus is always going to be on more top line loot, which the foundry does not offer.
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  • redneckroninredneckronin Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    cyguard1 wrote: »
    And this is a major problem as I see it with the entire game,

    It isn't a problem with the game.

    It is a problem with the mentality of players who zerg to endgame and then complain there is nothing new to do.

    There is nothing Devs, or foundry authors, can (or should) do to help these players, they are the sole creators of their own situation.

    All The Best
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  • ptreese84ptreese84 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I agree with a previous poster. Make loot rewards scale with the length of the foundry. Anything under 60 minutes regardless of party size shouldnt qualify.

    Could work as:
    Foundry run length > 60 minutes.
    Total foundry reviews > 1000.
    Author submits for better loot.
    Foundry locked from editing.
    Devs check for hidden portals/exploits.
    Foundry listed for epic rewards.
    Author gets Title for Epic Foundry.
    Thousands of players have something new to do.

    BUT FIRST: We need boss fights in foundries.
    Let us choose a boss model, edit the appearance, pick a premade intro and choose a couple encounters from a list for boss to use. Give us a % of boss health marker and let us roll.
  • zahinderzahinder Member Posts: 897 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I forget who first coined it, but there's a great term 'content locust.'
    The swarm descends, eats everything, then poops over it all and flies off to the next green field.

    There is NO WAY for developers to make enough content to fulfill the Swarm. There just isn't. If you make twice as much content, most of the Swarm will take an extra few days to finish it. Or they will ignore all the 'irrelevant side fluff' and still drill through the core content.

    Foundry can help, a little, but ultimately the best approach to the locusts is to let them burn through and leave, and delete all their angry goodbye forum clutter.
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  • overdriver13overdriver13 Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    It isn't a problem with the game.

    It is a problem with the mentality of players who zerg to endgame and then complain there is nothing new to do.

    There is nothing Devs, or foundry authors, can (or should) do to help these players, they are the sole creators of their own situation.

    All The Best

    Trying to look at this from the point of view of someone who has the best interests of this mmo at heart: power gamers make up an important element of the overall consumer base of any mmo. It isn't "a situation they put themselves in", when people stop playing a game, it is a situation the game has put its self in because of "the games" role in the seller-buyer process. In other words, if they want maximum people staying and buying virtual currency they have to have a way to crank out mass amounts of content quickly and cheaply.

    The Foundry is an ingenious way of doing this. But as a solution it has to address the core problem or it is pointless. If you own or run a company, you do not leave a massive amount of free labor with nothing to do, and you do not have it producing something that a core segment your customers will not consume.
  • wuhsinwuhsin Banned Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    zahinder wrote: »
    I forget who first coined it, but there's a great term 'content locust.'
    The swarm descends, eats everything, then poops over it all and flies off to the next green field.

    There is NO WAY for developers to make enough content to fulfill the Swarm. There just isn't. If you make twice as much content, most of the Swarm will take an extra few days to finish it. Or they will ignore all the 'irrelevant side fluff' and still drill through the core content.

    Foundry can help, a little, but ultimately the best approach to the locusts is to let them burn through and leave, and delete all their angry goodbye forum clutter.

    Great metaphor. I'll remember that one.
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  • sphecidasphecida Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 95
    edited June 2013
    zahinder wrote: »
    I forget who first coined it, but there's a great term 'content locust.'
    The swarm descends, eats everything, then poops over it all and flies off to the next green field.

    I totally agree - I've been trying to not level up so fast, so that I can enjoy all the maps. I would love it if there were a way to filter out the locusts from our foundry story-centric quests. Honestly, I couldn't care less about boss fights, xp and loot. I put combat in the first one I made because I felt burdened by people's expectations, but I may just leave it out of future stories unless it has a specific plot purpose.

    One has to wonder how these people would have dealt with pen and paper D&D. I can just imagine them arguing with the dungeonmaster about the dice rolls. "New to this type of game?" I think not.
  • silenzzzzsilenzzzz Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    just another random thing for the 'token' part of it ... have the special vendor that sells cosmetic only items to use to alter gear appearance that can only be purchased with the tokens ...

    the Foundry was one of the things that got me interested in the game ... from a RPG perspective being able to do more then just kill x mobs in a player made location has potential ... would enjoy the idea of a campaign that is more about puzzles and talking with npc's to find out answers then anything else .. but those kind should still offer some sort of reward for being done.
  • voxx75voxx75 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 61
    edited June 2013
    Give us the ability to create 5 man-only quests (with bosses, encounters and loot to match - within reasonable limits) and we'll have endless endgame content.
    @voxx75:
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  • raphaeldisantoraphaeldisanto Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    katah1969 wrote: »
    You are kidding right? Obviously you are new to this type of game. Loot *IS* everything! It is the reason you level up. Period. End of story.

    Please don't tell me why I play. If you attempt to assume that you know why someone else plays a video game, you'll just end up looking foolish when you're proven to be wrong.

    Like now.
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  • mackenzenmackenzen Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Go Foundry Team!

    Seriously, you guys are the single most important component of game development for Neverwinter and will be the key to the game's long-term success. I love that fact that there is a whole dev team working to facilitate the content that I most enjoy.

    I'm definitely in favor of a token system, one that can be exchanged for meaningful end-game rewards. I understand the challenges of battling exploiters. I'm fully confident, though, that reasonable solutions can be implemented that don't rob foundry quests of their significance, particularly at max level. Glad the Team is looking into it.

    I like the ideas that have been discussed that empower Foundry authors. I completely disagree with those that feel that Foundry rewards should be cosmetic only, or that group content should be the pinnacle of the Neverwinter experience.

    One token for the first run of a quest each day, limit to total number of tokens earned each day, creating an objective standard for challenge level: each of these is a step in the right direction.

    Properly rewarding Foundry quests may require a Foundry Council of appropriately qualified authors to moderate.
  • visigoth18visigoth18 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 371 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    ...

    :D I'm so glad to here an update on this topic!

    although I'm still not seeing any mention of changing the "15min" "Goldilocks" setup >.<

    katah1969 wrote: »
    You are kidding right? Obviously you are new to this type of game. Loot *IS* everything! It is the reason you level up. Period. End of story.

    I lol'ed...Your obviously part of the other group :D
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  • camamarcamamar Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The problem that was brought up at the beginning of this thread still hasn't really been addressed: why people don't play foundry content.

    The answer I'm hearing a general consensus on is that it's not worth it. The loot isn't there and neither is the AD income. I've heard discussion on how to address both of these, but I wanted to add to the mix on both these issues.

    Before we can discuss what to reward based on quest length, we need a way to measure that. I'd have the time of the mission be a calculation done by the foundry based on travel distance, number of dialogues, difficulty and durability of combat encounters, and any other factors that would affect the duration of a quest - assuming someone's not trying to exploit it. This number would then be semi-static, scaling to level (so it would not be exploitable by staying in the quest for a set amount of time) and and adjusted prior to quest acceptance by character stats, so that an overpowered character (for their level) would get a reduction in expected duration, where an underpowered one would get an increase.

    The idea behind this is to create a metric that is pre-generated and publicly visible to determine what rewards are available in the final chest. It is the dynamically changing metrics that are exploitable, so switching it to a static or semi-static one will limit or eliminate that aspect of exploitability (hopefully).

    I like the idea of foundry currency and a vendor. I'd like to see that vendor carry things not otherwise obtainable - cosmetics and party items, yes, but also crafting materials otherwise only available as rare drops. I'd put 1 of these "Seals" in the chest for every 15m of expected duration.

    You want to drive people to the foundry content? Make it the only way to get something they need. If foundry content was the only way to get something like enchants, you better believe they'd be run like crazy. If it were up to me (and it's not), I'd do that, and I'd make the length of the foundry quest control the tier of the enchant in the final chest - 1 tier for every 15m of expected duration - type to be determined randomly.

    As for the AD farming, I think if it were removed altogether it would have little impact on running foundry content - if foundry content were the only way to get enchants. If removing it is not preferred, I'd tweak the quests surrounding foundry content to be able to trade in the "Seals" for AD (possibly with a daily limit and/or an increase in their drop rate)
  • clcmercyclcmercy Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 308 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    Please don't tell me why I play. If you attempt to assume that you know why someone else plays a video game, you'll just end up looking foolish when you're proven to be wrong.

    Like now.

    And like you telling someone that loot IS NOT the reason to play foundry missions? Hypocrisy much?

    Also, to answer the question posed by the thread title.....

    In my opinion, the content in the foundry sucks. It is in no way "equivalent or better" that normal game content, which is what was hyped about the Foundry in the first place all through development and closed beta testing.

    People don't want to waste time for an hour or so in a player designed mission clicking their way through text. Most people, anyway. As someone pointed out in a previous post, a good portion of the playerbase in ANY mmo is locust like. Taking the ability to design and play missions the way they like away was kinda like Craptic shooting itself in the foot, IMHO. Sure, I'm all for fixing exploits, but not in the manner Craptic did. The game development studio that PIONEERED user generated content found this out already. Why couldn't Craptic developers learn from this? Why couldn't Craptic developers implement a better Foundry design than what was released to us, for one was SURELY already put into a game long before this one was on the table.

    Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
  • casten24casten24 Member Posts: 121 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    clcmercy wrote: »
    And like you telling someone that loot IS NOT the reason to play foundry missions? Hypocrisy much?
    I don't remember anything like this being dropped in this thread. Not that it's even equivalent to someone telling you why you play. It's like one person (katah) saying, "You play sports because they're fun and that's the only reason you play them," when in fact, they could also be played to keep in shape. While the other person (raphael) says, "If you only do things that keep you in shape, than sitting on the couch watching TV is not for you." Katah was playing thought police. Raphael wasn't saying that "loot IS NOT the reason to play the foundry." He was saying that if all you want is loot, then Foundry missions are far from your best source of fulfillment. He was stating a fact... Katah, a (poor) assumption.
    clcmercy wrote: »
    People don't want to waste time for an hour or so in a player designed mission clicking their way through text.
    Dangerously close to thought police territory, here.
    clcmercy wrote: »
    Most people, anyway.
    And you just barely redeem yourself here from the previous sentence.
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  • visigoth18visigoth18 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 371 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2013
    ^lol...I'm trying to avoid this thread like the plague O_O but it wants to pull me in...
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  • pasainpasain Member Posts: 53
    edited July 2013
    I play foundries, I usually only go for the daily amount and probably every other day or less. At 60 they are currently decent for levelling companions and some gold income to pay for dungeons. Atleast that is my thoughts on them. I also usually try to find new ones I haven't played for atleast one of the dailies I do, although I am starting to get into longer quests to accomplish that.

    I am not sure seals idea is really viable, perhaps it is. look at drake, unicorn and the other seals. Beyond a few select items they are mostly garbage as are the rep drops. These all really need to be upgradeable to the highest tier for scaled amounts, and something useful beyond the gear you can get with them needs to be available. Pots and repair kits come to mind. I think if you could make seals valuable and then make foundry seals this might be a good incentive.

    On top of whatever else comes from the seal scheme..

    I think longer foundries need some love. Pretty sure I posted this elsewhere. 15 min foundry = 1 daily.. 30 min foundry should be equal to 2 dailies, 45 min 3 dailies and so on. Longer than hour and you really need to be making a campaign anyway, unless its some dungeon delve type quest, although that could be split into wings too. There needs to be some incentive to run longer dungeons beyond the story, or people need to split their quests more effectively which is not always easy.

    Skill nodes and treasure chests.. perhaps based off asset spend counts.. So the more assets spent the more nodes one can place or will be auto generated (I don't think the auto generated is possible but I am not sure.) With a bias towards custom maps getting more skill nodes than non custom maps. I can't recall if there is a major difference in asset count between a pre made map and a custom. Medium custom map has 1500max asset count if I recall. so perhaps 5 nodes allowed, available at every 300 assets spent. with the last one available between 1400-1500 because you cant over max and hitting it on exactly 1500 is probably difficult.
  • casekukcasekuk Member Posts: 203 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Drop the Daily foundry limit from 4 foundry quests to complete to 1

    This way every single person out there plays at 'least' one foundry per day. Rather than the way it is now, whereas no one plays ANY because no one wants to spend that long playing foundry quests! I mean come on PW?? What were you thinking? 4 hours to complete a Daily? Thats more time than most people get to play per day! Who in their right mind is going to give up all there play time to that when all thier mates want to do dungeons??

    Problem solved.

    I can't for the life of me figure out why daily rewards moved from 1 to 2 then 3 and finally 4!

    Leave them at 1!! This is hardly an exploitable system, its a 'daily'!
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  • possum440possum440 Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    On deck for the Foundry team, we are tackling a new search that will have a ton of features that make it easy to find just what you are looking for. Part of this update to search is going to be tagging and support for advanced searches. We have also been talking about how we can get a decent suggestion system as well.

    Authors continue to make fantastic quests and have crafted some of the best experiences I have had in Neverwinter. It's hard to think of anything so awesome as a failure. Rewards are a tricky thing. I don't think we can start handing out T2 loot for Foundry quests but we are constantly looking at the rewards and rewarding for Foundry content. There is a balance that we need to hit where there is a reward for players and authors that doesn't harm the game. It is likely that new models will need to be investigated for the Foundry that strike a good middle ground for rewards.

    It boggles the mind that developers have a hard time thinking of ways to implement much better loot in these foundries. I can think of two ways to do so while typing this, but I do not agree with your "whatever we type on your forums belongs solely to PWE and Cryptic" because of that non solicitation thing. You know how to contact me. lets see if you want to license some far superior game mechanics because frankly, your team seems a bit wanting.

    Of course if it is simply a budget thing...well, we all know what's up with that.

    Also, Pwe/Cryptic needs to release all developer models and mechanics for the foundries instead of just trickling them out, we all know you have them, just release them. I am talking the good stuff, moving stairs and floors, moving pits, moving bridges, pits or rooms filling with water or gas, etc, etc.
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  • redneckroninredneckronin Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    There's no need for them to license anything from anyone.

    They have all the tools they need to introduce loot good enough to incentivise players to play Foundries.

    They just need the brains to figure that out.

    The "Seal System".

    All they need to do is all lowest level Seals to be traded at 3:1 for next tier seals, and so on to final tier.

    Then allow Foundry "Reward Loot" to include Seals of an appropriate level.

    Then allow Seals to buy more than just "gear", allow us to use seals to unlock bag/bank space for example, buy cosmetics (BTW the cosmetic/dye system in this game is laughably incompetent), etc.

    The key to Free-To-Play Micro-Transaction games is to give players enough choices on how to access content (even cosmetic / utility content) that they never feel corralled in to paying cash, but to male cash the easier, and cheaper option.

    All The Best
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