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were the buffs to the GWF enough ?

hedas8hedas8 Member Posts: 100
edited June 2013 in The Militia Barracks
comment on your opinion.
"Vera libertas dissipabis omnem tantibus" me.
Hedas 60 GWF.
Hrod 60 GF.
Alain Loreweaver 60 CW.
Dragon.
Post edited by hedas8 on
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Comments

  • chuckwolfchuckwolf Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    To be honest no.

    While what was changed is great fact is all the at-wills should have been buffed the same amount as SS and WS were. WMS and Reaping needed the same level of damage buff. Even though I don't use Reaping I do use WMS as my primary AoE attack at-will.

    Also the damage causing encounters could have been buffed a bit too.

    What's weird is for a AoE DPS class the Damage encounters, with the exceptions of Not so fast (which was buffed), and Roar, which does do decent damage, but to me seems strange for a GWF as it pushes the enemy away from the GWF which IMHO is the last thing a GWF wants is to have his enemies outside the range of his sword swing. But maybe that's just me.

    Back to encounters, Knockdown, restoring strike, Flourish and IBS are all single target attacks which seems kind of weird for an AoE based class, but then again we do need that little bit of extra damage when we do get in a 1 on 1 situation.
    @Powerblast in game
  • ioannides5ioannides5 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    change reaping strike and slightly buff destroyer tree and i'll be happy.
  • silknightsilknight Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 199
    edited June 2013
    Yea, Destroyer still needs a bit of love, but aside from that it was a step in a better direction, still not quite there though.
  • craftymangcraftymang Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    chuckwolf wrote: »
    To be honest no.

    While what was changed is great fact is all the at-wills should have been buffed the same amount as SS and WS were. WMS and Reaping needed the same level of damage buff. Even though I don't use Reaping I do use WMS as my primary AoE attack at-will.

    Also the damage causing encounters could have been buffed a bit too.

    It's strange that they only seemed to buff the weaker encounters that few used before, but did nothing to the encounters that almost everyone uses (IBS, Flourish). I would like to see an anvil of doom style buff to IBS that gives it bonus damage when enemies are at a certain threshold of HP, not double damage mind you but perhaps 25-50% when below 33%. Would like to see Flourish become a short range charge, perhaps 35', with a MUCH faster windup animation, also removed the stun and add a slow.

    What's weird is for a AoE DPS class the Damage encounters, with the exceptions of Not so fast (which was buffed), and Roar, which does do decent damage, but to me seems strange for a GWF as it pushes the enemy away from the GWF which IMHO is the last thing a GWF wants is to have his enemies outside the range of his sword swing. But maybe that's just me.

    Agreed. If anything Roar should stun targets for 1-1.5 seconds; this would make it useful in PvP as well. That or it could also daze and slow targets for a bit longer (2-2.5 seconds).


    Back to encounters, Knockdown, restoring strike, Flourish and IBS are all single target attacks which seems kind of weird for an AoE based class, but then again we do need that little bit of extra damage when we do get in a 1 on 1 situation.

    Completely agree. For the supposed 'AOE class' we sure get very little in the way of AOE encounters that DO DAMAGE. If we're going to be relying on our at wills for AOE damage then they should be STRONG. Removal of the damage falloff per target hit (i feel this is absolutely imperative) and a slackening of the target cap (to perhaps 7-8) would go a long way towards making the great weapon fighter a solid class.


    I also think that many of the Paragon feats need to move away from being so situational/conditional.
  • terhixterhix Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 242 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    No, but I'll vote Yes. There are still things that need fixing, but all things considered we are much closer to where we should be, and a lot of the problems are not with the class, but rather with the content.
  • axven1axven1 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Well for my destroyer i have to be honest, i noticed the cooldowns and more dmg coming from sure strike and other stuff,no biggie,not really game changers for me.I was more interested in the neglected paragon Sentinel.I lvl another GWF just to test the new "fixes" in the tree.I went full survivability build , im wearing imposing gear.It surpassed my expectations defensively.It has even been useful in pvp.The problem is the 3 feats and give threat generation .Intimidation ,Grudge style and Defiance.The problems is they create additional threat based off your dps. So in theory if ur dps is high and you have these feats u create aggro and keep it well. The problem is that is u go full off tank and you use defensive gear u sacrifice your dps to tank ,so why would threat be based off percentage of agrro created by your dps.
  • hedas8hedas8 Member Posts: 100
    edited June 2013
    terhix wrote: »
    No, but I'll vote Yes. There are still things that need fixing, but all things considered we are much closer to where we should be, and a lot of the problems are not with the class, but rather with the content.

    I disagree. I play both a GF and GWF and the only upside of the GWF is more time of CC immunity, I don't think its crazy to expect similar levels of control and more damage than a GF as a GWF. If you compare feats like disciple of strength 6% for GWF 15% for GF/TR and other victims of the BW4 nerf this class seems a long way from a "balanced" unless you really enjoy playing the underdog, I think the best place to start is by giving GWF realiable damage on at wills and better CC on encounters such as knockdown on not so fast (even if only on crits) or change reaping strike to slow animation heavy damage/knockdown attack such as the mace wielding gnoll "fang" from the blackdagger area.

    in general, I think the devs are overestimating the GWF pros, and underestimating the cons.
    "Vera libertas dissipabis omnem tantibus" me.
    Hedas 60 GWF.
    Hrod 60 GF.
    Alain Loreweaver 60 CW.
    Dragon.
  • s3z3s3z3 Member Posts: 216 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Absolutely no. Unless u put about 20-30 mil AD into GWF he's still garbage. cw\tr with 10 mil budget can own anything that moves and 20 mil gwf will be 'ok'.
    Carnage TR Dragon shard - retired? hell yea it's retired along with Nevewinter

    Seze - Rogue - Necropolis - <3 RIFT
  • mutantdemocracymutantdemocracy Member Posts: 497 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    ioannides5 wrote: »
    change reaping strike and slightly buff destroyer tree and i'll be happy.

    I'd love to see the Destroyer tree do something to give bonus lifesteal. Lifesteal combined with Slam makes for amazing sustain when coupled with Unstoppable.

    Damage would be nice, but even a little more staying power would feel neat, to me.
  • zardoz007zardoz007 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I made a new GWF on a dummy account for the soul purpose of seeing how it fairs low level and It still is the wekest class. I also made a dummy rogue and a dummy GF for comparison. As far as the melee classes go GWF is still the weakest.

    I would not ask for too much more for the GF though. Daring shout is currently broken it is no longer generating Determination per enemy hit. I have seen no patch notes on that so this obviously needs to be fixed. The sentinel threat buffs for Daring SHout and Come and get it do not compare to the threat generated from the GWFs other AOE damage moves strckly form just dealing damage. With the sentinal buffs these moves need to make more threat than damage moves or else whats the point of the threat buffs.

    And GWF encounter powers still need a damage buff. It is nice having a roll in the party again but when your party wants you to DPS a boss because they could not get a rogue you Know that you have nothing that can hold a candle to the rogue. GWF should have better single target damage options.
  • harshalnharshaln Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    i want to buff all at-wills and animations of flourish,indomitable and crescendo must be reduced to half. means it must take half time for current animation and for staying in battle make 8 sec of steel defiance ........
  • judicasjudicas Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 156 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    This should get a sticky, sadly there is no way to force people to vote un-anon, id love to see the percentages in say a month while also deleting the votes that dont play a GWF
  • chudovishyechudovishye Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Sorry, but you people are pussies who have no idea what you're doing. Patch was awesome, and noticeable. Learn how to play, stop reading "guides" and research the stats, feats, powers on your own. Do a little basic math and figure it out instead of following someone's lead and then complaining later they didn't buff enough so you can play with little effort. That's what playing properly is about, work. I've had my GWF since before the patch and the second day open beta started. She's awesome, I did it myself, and the patch made it even better. The fact people voted so many NOs in this poll is just sad, play another class.
  • chudovishyechudovishye Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    zardoz007 wrote: »
    I made a new GWF on a dummy account for the soul purpose of seeing how it fairs low level and It still is the wekest class. I also made a dummy rogue and a dummy GF for comparison. As far as the melee classes go GWF is still the weakest.

    I would not ask for too much more for the GF though. Daring shout is currently broken it is no longer generating Determination per enemy hit. I have seen no patch notes on that so this obviously needs to be fixed. The sentinel threat buffs for Daring SHout and Come and get it do not compare to the threat generated from the GWFs other AOE damage moves strckly form just dealing damage. With the sentinal buffs these moves need to make more threat than damage moves or else whats the point of the threat buffs.

    And GWF encounter powers still need a damage buff. It is nice having a roll in the party again but when your party wants you to DPS a boss because they could not get a rogue you Know that you have nothing that can hold a candle to the rogue. GWF should have better single target damage options.

    Wow what did you do play to level 2? Try it at 60 then come back to me. Posts like this are so counter-productive.
  • mehguy138mehguy138 Member Posts: 1,803 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    They're doing it wrong way. They buffed his survivability but the main problem was GWF's DAMAGE. Now they're like punching dummies, you can't kill 'em but they can't do anything too. Still weakest damage on at wills and encounters. I only feel better in PvE now while leveling new GWF.
    M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
  • kolatmasterkolatmaster Member Posts: 3,111 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    mehguy138 wrote: »
    They're doing it wrong way. They buffed his survivability but the main problem was GWF's DAMAGE. Now they're like punching dummies, you can't kill 'em but they can't do anything too. Still weakest damage on at wills and encounters. I only feel better in PvE now while leveling new GWF.
    Survivability (PvP) in the Sentinel build makes you a G.O.D.

    Don't believe me? Try it out. :)
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  • chudovishyechudovishye Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    mehguy138 wrote: »
    They're doing it wrong way. They buffed his survivability but the main problem was GWF's DAMAGE. Now they're like punching dummies, you can't kill 'em but they can't do anything too. Still weakest damage on at wills and encounters. I only feel better in PvE now while leveling new GWF.

    Nah, I can completely disagree with this. My current GS is only 10.2 and I do fine. Once you get up there the damage goes up, especially if you're paying attention to how to use your powers and feats.
  • zardoz007zardoz007 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Wow what did you do play to level 2? Try it at 60 then come back to me. Posts like this are so counter-productive.

    No I played each class to level 30 This was more than enough time spent to see how the patch fairs on low level classes. I have played GWF to 30 in every beta weekend. I would like to see the GWF perform on par with the other classes low levels since I see the game as mor ethan just lv 60 and onward.
  • mehguy138mehguy138 Member Posts: 1,803 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I have Sentinel GWF, and I really enjoy playing him in PvE, I was at the first place in damage when doing Pirate King, I was tanking those adds like crazy (used Daring Shout), but I still do not enjoy as GWF in PvP, I still prefer any other class over GWF (yes, even cleric). It's just my opinion, and I'm mainly PvP player in every MMO, don't really pay attention to PvE balance, and IMHO GWF still sucks.
    M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
  • wolfenhowlwolfenhowl Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    While CWs still exist in this game there will be no place for us in groups because we don't brink anything to the table,while our aoe damage is great that is all we have.While we got turned into aoe tanks this patch there is still very little space for us in grps since we can't control,heal or do any decent single target dps.

    People still want 2 cw/2 dc in their grp rogues just get 1 space because they so viable anymore when more than 1.
  • vortix44vortix44 Member Posts: 680 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    PvP has not changed much. You're dazed, tou're dazed, you're dazed, you're dead. You cannot use this skill... you cannot use this skill... you cannot use this skill... you're dead. The logs are still depressing. "Your Flourish hits for 300". "Steal Time hits you for 5000." "Your WMS hits for 102". "Regeneration heals you for 0".

    In PvE, not much difference either. Q-E-R all together will remove 25% of the elite's life, if you follow with the Daily then you might reach almost 50%. But at least, unlike PvP, the skills do hit the target.

    For me the only difference is that Sure Strike is now back in my At-wills. But then, being able to use a single-target At-will to hit a single target is more a bug fix than a balance patch.

    With this said, one of my guildies is a very happy GWF and feels over-powered. True, he just reached 60 and equipped expensive gear such as the Ancient Castle, he has everything gemmed (including pants and shirt). His feeling of Over-Poweredness may come from his reaching 60 rather than from the patch.
    English is not my first language.
  • bayne3bayne3 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I'd like to see threat built in to bravery for the sentinel tree. Overall, happy with the changes, Sentinels just need to be able to quickly build threat with all the CW aoe going on.
  • herosoundherosound Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Even before the patch I was never at the bottom of the charts like so many people were saying I was going to be, After the patch I've more often than not been number 1 in damage dealt and enemies killed, Now im only level 40 on my GWF but i dont think it changes that much...
  • kevinf08kevinf08 Member Posts: 432 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    vortix44 wrote: »
    PvP has not changed much. You're dazed, tou're dazed, you're dazed, you're dead. You cannot use this skill... you cannot use this skill... you cannot use this skill... you're dead. The logs are still depressing. "Your Flourish hits for 300". "Steal Time hits you for 5000." "Your WMS hits for 102". "Regeneration heals you for 0".

    In PvE, not much difference either. Q-E-R all together will remove 25% of the elite's life, if you follow with the Daily then you might reach almost 50%. But at least, unlike PvP, the skills do hit the target.

    For me the only difference is that Sure Strike is now back in my At-wills. But then, being able to use a single-target At-will to hit a single target is more a bug fix than a balance patch.

    With this said, one of my guildies is a very happy GWF and feels over-powered. True, he just reached 60 and equipped expensive gear such as the Ancient Castle, he has everything gemmed (including pants and shirt). His feeling of Over-Poweredness may come from his reaching 60 rather than from the patch.

    PVP has changed a ton for GWF, I think you are mistaken here.

    How it generally goes now; Your dazed, your dazed, your dazed, UNSTOPPABLE, your healed, people are struggling to damage you. GWF is now tanky in pvp which is something it really needed.

    The issue of being kited still remains though which was the biggest problem in the first place. At least now with temp hp from unstoppable the other classes will struggle greatly to kill you while kiting you.

    As it see it GWF is great in PVP atm. The class still isnt' good 1v1 vs. anyone that can kite you, but if you have support, such as a CW, that can control a target so they can't kite, or can't kite as well, you can land your cc as well as do alot of damage and have the advantage of hitting unstoppable if they try to kill you.

    GWF is by far the best class to go solo cap an undefended base. If someone comes to recap the base you can stand on teh flag for quite some time and just tank the damage that is being done to you. If more than 1 comes you can also run away better than pretty much every other class.
  • chudovishyechudovishye Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kevinf08 wrote: »
    PVP has changed a ton for GWF, I think you are mistaken here.

    How it generally goes now; Your dazed, your dazed, your dazed, UNSTOPPABLE, your healed, people are struggling to damage you. GWF is now tanky in pvp which is something it really needed.

    The issue of being kited still remains though which was the biggest problem in the first place. At least now with temp hp from unstoppable the other classes will struggle greatly to kill you while kiting you.

    As it see it GWF is great in PVP atm. The class still isnt' good 1v1 vs. anyone that can kite you, but if you have support, such as a CW, that can control a target so they can't kite, or can't kite as well, you can land your cc as well as do alot of damage and have the advantage of hitting unstoppable if they try to kill you.

    GWF is by far the best class to go solo cap an undefended base. If someone comes to recap the base you can stand on teh flag for quite some time and just tank the damage that is being done to you. If more than 1 comes you can also run away better than pretty much every other class.

    I think he's still at level 23.
  • maximiliousmaximilious Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    vortix44 wrote: »
    PvP has not changed much. You're dazed, tou're dazed, you're dazed, you're dead. You cannot use this skill... you cannot use this skill... you cannot use this skill... you're dead. The logs are still depressing. "Your Flourish hits for 300". "Steal Time hits you for 5000." "Your WMS hits for 102". "Regeneration heals you for 0".

    In PvE, not much difference either. Q-E-R all together will remove 25% of the elite's life, if you follow with the Daily then you might reach almost 50%. But at least, unlike PvP, the skills do hit the target.

    For me the only difference is that Sure Strike is now back in my At-wills. But then, being able to use a single-target At-will to hit a single target is more a bug fix than a balance patch.

    With this said, one of my guildies is a very happy GWF and feels over-powered. True, he just reached 60 and equipped expensive gear such as the Ancient Castle, he has everything gemmed (including pants and shirt). His feeling of Over-Poweredness may come from his reaching 60 rather than from the patch.

    Can we please have people that actually PVP discuss here? I am a GF and the only thing I do is pvp. GWF is the most overpowered class in the game right now. Not only can they beat ANYBODY on a 1v1 now, but they are also able to pretty much "tank" a group of 5 players FOCUSING on him / her WHILE regaining health. GWF are a beast now IF you don't generally suck.

    This is how my fights with GWF go now:

    round one: Almost kill GWF, GWF becomes IMMUNE, and also regains health close to 100%

    round two: Same deal as round one, except now I have 50% health.

    round three: I am dead because this GWF manages to become immune, regain health when he is almost down.


    Or, I like how we have 5 people on base 2 then comes a GWF taking ALL THE DAMAGE from the ENTIRE TEAM, while killing people and regaining health.

    It's pretty broken, if you still lose with a GWF in pvp you should REALLY consider quitting this game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • alaerickalaerick Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 166 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I think the problems GWF face is a bit more complex than just what I see being said here. Our AOE At Wills and Encounter abilities need some love. After all we are the AOE class and right now I rarely want to hit an AOE ability because the damage or other effect makes it painful or pointless to use in most cases. Either way you look at it GWF need some major love.. Rogues destroy our damage, Mages have better mobility, CC and damage.. And well I am just going to take a guess that the Ranger will be more of the same.. leaving GWF as the very bottom of the dps chart, one of the worst classes in pvp without sick gear and sticking to only one exact build setup to be effective in short burst scenarios.

    First and foremost the GWF I feel should be given a slight system tweak that is sort of like how the mages (TAB) ability works but different. For a GWF here's how I think it should work. Each passive (Class Feature) should add a new effect to all encounter and at will abilities allowing for the mix-n-matching of two extra bonus effects. Each Class feature slotted has a particular bonus and use.. From what I've seen tho most opt for the same two at end game no matter what they are doing pvp or pve unless they are trying to off tank because everyone wants more determination gains to be even remotely effective and oh yeah.. crit crit crit or forget it.. So having said that I'll use one of our class abilities as an example below (See Reaping Strike) to show how some tweaks might spice things up a bit and make other passives worth using.

    Reaping Strike should be changed drastically. I know it adds to our determination but at what cost? Moving so slow you can't position yourself well enough to use it and doing abysmal damage if you do hit? Let's face it it's the attack that is basically worthless from level 2-60. Here's some suggestions for it..

    Reaping strike. I think the best way to fix reaping strike is making it's effect be changed by which class features are active. Such as Destroyer gives a LARGE Damage boost, Steadfast determination gives the increased determination gains & Movement speed buff after using it, Bravery gives a big boost to defense & movement speed buff while using it & threat generation buff lasting 3s per stack up to a max of 3 stacks for a few seconds after use or make the time flat bonus and the amount of threat based on 3 stacks, Weapon master makes it have the instant no charge up requirement and bonus chance to crit, etc. This same type of situation should be applied to every ability but especially this one as it is literally the only other ability we have for AOE for half the game at the very least..

    Restoring strike - Destroyer - Increases the damage of this ability. Steadfast determination makes the ability also add to determination such as 5%. Bravery - Increases the healing effect by 50%-100% more than it's current value.. Weapon Master - Allows the ability to be used twice within 12s or reduces the cooldown by 50%.

    Mighty Leap - Increase range by a significant amount period.. Destroyer - Increases the size of the AOE of this ability. Bravery - gives a short term Heal over time healing something like 5/10/15% HP over 12s, Stead fast Determination - +1/3/5% determination per target hit, Weapon Master - Increase the damage of the ability by a significant amount.

    I could easily continue on with this for each of the other abilities but I think this should properly illustrate the point. I might come back and add more later if anyone shows interest in it..
    A beautiful death awaits you...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    -Foundry-
    Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
    Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
  • porpoisealertporpoisealert Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 86
    edited June 2013
    Ah, I remember being able to actually do CN back when clerics generated threat. Now a GF is necessary and better for basically everything, and my spot has vanished.
  • kevinf08kevinf08 Member Posts: 432 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    GWF is the most overpowered class in the game right now. Not only can they beat ANYBODY on a 1v1 now, but they are also able to pretty much "tank" a group of 5 players FOCUSING on him / her WHILE regaining health. GWF are a beast now IF you don't generally suck.

    I pretty much always kill a GWF in a straight 1v1 on my rogue or on my CW. Either that or he runs away. In team fights they can kill me pretty easily though if a CW lands a choke on me or something so he can close the gap and land takedown. They are pretty tanky now though, but for a melee only class with no shift dodge, they need a way to survive while they get kited.

    Not sure if they are overpowered personally. If they are I wouldn't say it's something drastic and gamebreaking.


    Just my opinion though, I know some people that would agree with you that GWF is too strong.
  • orialchumorialchum Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Can we please have people that actually PVP discuss here? I am a GF and the only thing I do is pvp. GWF is the most overpowered class in the game right now. Not only can they beat ANYBODY on a 1v1 now, but they are also able to pretty much "tank" a group of 5 players FOCUSING on him / her WHILE regaining health. GWF are a beast now IF you don't generally suck.

    Except that the game isn't just pvp. People feeling that the class has issues getting groups has nothing to do with viability in pvp. That there are mechanical issues with the class is a valid concern.
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