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To all those saying NWO is P2w..
rashylewizz
Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
You are right in a sense, but mostly wrong for what you are proposing. This game is pay to win only in the elitist-hardcore-underground gamer community wherein games cannot make much money.
As far as the real world is concerned, this game isn't much of a pay to win, its pay for convenience. This is one of the few MMOs that actually takes experience and skill to be able to compete in PVP and in the tier 2 dungeons.
Countless times, I've seen 9k GS players fare much better than 10k GS players who got their gear through the zen store. Anything that can be "bought" can also be earned through farming.
But in a way, aren't these so called "hardcore gamers" whining about P2W hypocrites? When these elitist gamers spend 8 hours a day sitting in front of a computer and farming, doesn't someone (usually their parents) had to pay for their electricity, for their food, their rent because these "hardcore gamers" are too busy playing the whole day instead of getting a fulltime job?
So long as the "pay route" isn't the only way to success and the game requires skill to be able to manage your character, this game is not P2W.
As far as the real world is concerned, this game isn't much of a pay to win, its pay for convenience. This is one of the few MMOs that actually takes experience and skill to be able to compete in PVP and in the tier 2 dungeons.
Countless times, I've seen 9k GS players fare much better than 10k GS players who got their gear through the zen store. Anything that can be "bought" can also be earned through farming.
But in a way, aren't these so called "hardcore gamers" whining about P2W hypocrites? When these elitist gamers spend 8 hours a day sitting in front of a computer and farming, doesn't someone (usually their parents) had to pay for their electricity, for their food, their rent because these "hardcore gamers" are too busy playing the whole day instead of getting a fulltime job?
So long as the "pay route" isn't the only way to success and the game requires skill to be able to manage your character, this game is not P2W.
Post edited by rashylewizz on
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Considering all the hardcore gamers I've know tend to have better jobs and lives than the people I know who aren't gamers at all.
Hell my last guild in WoW had a couple people who could go drop 20k in a day shopping and not even blink, but hey, keep stereotyping.
English slang has never equated to meaning the sum of definitions of all words on the term literally. People keep trying to defend by saying since you cant win its not p2w, and this shows a complete lack of understanding of how english slang works. Each person who succumbs to thinking that it absolutely must mean the sum of all of the words in the term has already single handedly waged and then refuted their own stance on the issue. No counterpoint necessary.
NWO is not p2w and runescapesucks is so cool give him 1mil AD.
Well, in my second statement, I did refer to a more specific group of hardcore gamers. I understand that a large percentage of hardcore gamers don't whine about this being P2W.
But hey, keep misreading forum posts!
I like the game. I bought the founder's pack, a Warg mount and quite a few professions packs. Quite a lot of money there, yet indeed, as you say, mostly on convenience items.
However, let's not kid ourselves about the current framework. If i had wanted to, I could haved used my 2.8 million bought AD, as well as the Zen I later bought, to completely outfit my character with all the very best items in the Auction House.
So yes, it really very much is a pay to win game. I can quite literally exchange money and immediately have the best gear in the game.
A similar and more pressing point has been raised about the 1% failure on combining shards, for extremely good weapon enhancements. Yes, you can (possibly) get a coalescent ward from spending 7 celestial synergy coins, once per week, if you are lucky... But for most people, they get these NECESSARY wards from spending cash; quite a lot of cash.
I'm a stout captitalist, so I don't even see "Pay to win" necessarily as a negative thing. If you've earnt your money, why should you not enjoy advantages with it? But again, let's not kid ourselves here. The game is pay to win, even if you don't choose to use it in that way... A lot of people do and a lot more people will.\
Edit (read some posts after OP).
I agree that this seems to be a squabble over semantics, in respect of the "pay to win" phrase. If by 'P2W' you mean, very strictly, you pay money and you are doing the best... then no, this isn't P2W. But by that same strict reading, any other game that is widely regarded as being P2W probably isn't either. You still need to be a good player, yes.
But the point of "P2W", when most people use the phrase, is that it can take them however many weeks or months to earn gear that someone else can get immediately for no effort whatsoever, through a monetary transaction.
You can't get a clearer example of that situation than here in NWO...
The fact is most people fail to recognize that companies develop games for one reason (to make money.) That's the way the world works - no business has ever stayed afloat by losing money. Programmers, artists, network engineers, server guys, PR people, HR people, administration.. it all costs money. A game has to make money to survive.
Cryptic has done a hell of a job striking a good balance in my opinion.. you can get into the game for free, level up and get into end game content without spending a dime. For those of us who support the game, or want some convenience/cool looking items, we can CHOOSE to spend money - however, it is in no way required.
The thing that kills me is people acting like they DESERVE free respecs or they DESERVE this or DESERVE that... child please. They act as if when their wishes aren't met, they are going to take their ball and go home and Cryptic/PW will be left out to dry... go ahead. Quit the game. No one cares. There are plenty who think this game is a real gem - it needs some refining, some tweaking, some more content - that will come with time. It's still in Open Beta for cripes sake. And yet people seem to feel the need to shout their obtuse and narrow viewpoints on the forums as if they know all...
There will be issues with the game. There are issues with any game. So far, the team has been reasonably responsive... for people who think the game is unfair.. just quit. To everyone else.. happy hunting out there. The game is a great game and I hope you guys enjoy it as much as I have (problems and all!)
Yeap exactly, its not about assigning a negative connotation to the term. Its about calling a spade a spade.
That is exactly what myself and a few other posters are saying is the mistake here. "Pay to win" does NOT imply that you MUST spend money. What is implied, and explicitly stated, is that you pay money and then you can win. It's a phrase that is used to describe games where effort and money are interchangeable.
It's used negatively by people who have spent or have to spend a great many months and with a lot of luck to get the best gear, when someone else can waltz right up and get that same gear through a purchase.
Whenever effort and money are interchangeable in respect of in-game rewards, then the game is pay to win, because, quite literally, you are able to win by paying.
Burninator of Wasabiburn, Maker of Dreamz, Breaker of Heartz
That's not really how language works.
"Pay 2 win" has demonstrably been used to describe games where EFFORT and MONEY are interchangeable currencies. If ever effort can be subverted through means of an instantaneous transaction, the game becomes pay to win, because PAYING is a viable alternative to putting in the long hours.
There is nothing in this short phrase to suggest it is a necessity. Please indicate where this is inferred in these three words?
"Pay to win" is not the same as "Paying is necessary for winning". <-- that would be 'real' and 'meaningful'.
what is win?
Its quite simple really. I pay for things in the game because I like this game. Also I cba waiting for something I want that's going to take me months to get, the reason for this is because I'm impatient and that's pretty much it. If someone wants to pay for NWO let them... they help fund the next Perfect world game that's free to play. If you don't wanna pay then don't pay if you feel that your pride gets in the way knowing you've lowered yourself and feel disgusted with knowing you might want to even reach for your wallet then that's fine. I aint gona judge you. JUST PLAY AND HAVE FUN!!! yay
Works for ANY online game that's not 'turn based'.
All other things being equal, the player with the fastest computer and lowest ping time has an advantage. Therefore if you have enough money, you can buy a house next to the game server farm, a T-3 line and have a 2ms ping.
Its meaning is rather more simple. Pay to win, because you can pay, and then you can win.
It is a far more specific reading to suggest it means "And is also a necessary condition of winning".
That's how the term has, in my experience, always been used. Which is considerably more general than what you are suggesting (that paying is somehow also a necessary condition to winning).
I've never come across that more specific use of the phrase, largely because I don't know of any games off the top of my head where that phrase would even apply.
A simple definition of P2W is as I stated above; any game where effort and money are interchangeable.
The reason for that is because gamers who were unable or unwilling to dump money into a game were understandably BITTER that rich boys can get the exact same stuff as them for none of the effort.
Are you kidding me? This isn't true for pve and it is certainly not true for pvp. Idiots mash buttons, good players study their opponents, their skills, where they position themselves, what the animations of their skills look like, etc. and play accordingly.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Welcome to life. Some people have more time than money for video games. Others have more money than time. Rarely do you find someone with a lot of money AND a lot of time. As long as both players stand an equal chance of getting into the same end game and facing off in PVP, I don't see what the problem is. I understand your usage of the term "P2W" - however, the term is a misnomer, and as was stated earlier, doesn't even apply to this game as "winning" is not easily defined. The best example would be PVP, but again, you can get the same gear as someone who pays, so who cares?