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Zen Store Boycott June 20th 2013 - ....

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  • griennegrienne Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    gromtaracc wrote: »
    I agree. I played a Cleric in RIFT. Best class system hands down. And Cleric was fun as hell, could swap to tanking, DPSing, or healing builds in just moments. I played mostly a dedicated tank healer, it was very very fun for just pure healing, so many skills to choose from. I sometimes miss RIFT. I quit only because I couldn't dedicate that much time to raiding anymore, and I am not much of a casual player :P



    Mage Healing was total boss status! Cleric healing and tanking, I had the water heals, direct, and my main tanking form was the shiznizzle!

    I am waiting on Wildstar now personally, I was hoping to play this til' then, but if they roll out this patch as is, I am totally done.
  • griennegrienne Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    shultzilla wrote: »
    AS wasn't intended to have it's duration increased per rank, so it is going back to "Normal". 66% uptime on AS isn't bad. You can still run 2 Clerics for 100% uptime on AS by alternating casts.

    Everyone is a little peeved about the changes to DC, but we have plenty of players testing things out on the Preview Shard.


    Yes and we are saying it sucks. Period. Optimistic Opal is nice, but I need Reality Regina.

    The devs nerfed AS and didn't buff anything else.
  • khatzhaskhatzhas Member Posts: 268 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    grienne wrote: »
    Yes and we are saying it sucks. Period. Optimistic Opal is nice, but I need Reality Regina.

    The devs nerfed AS and didn't buff anything else.
    OK. So lets get constructive.
    Why was the average cleric unable to perform their role without the AS bug, and what is needed now, based on preview shard performance to let us perform that role more easily.

    We know that it is possible for clerics to do their job with the current changes, but we need adjustments that let even below-average clerics deal with T2 challenges, not just the top minority.

    So: Better healing over time? A burst heal, or shield/temporary HP for spikes? Persistent ground AoE effect, or one that will move with the cleric/other party member? Single target or AoE?

    Where is the average cleric failing, and what needs to be done to buff us so we don't fail?

    Whether we were buffed or nerfed compared to previous state is irrelevant.
    The only relevant consideration is our actual performance. Can we do our jobs or not?
  • khatzhaskhatzhas Member Posts: 268 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I guess you haven't played DDO.
    Dungeons and Dragons Online. If you did, you'd realize which game was a lot closer to D&D and open your eyes about not pigeonholing characters simply based on class.
    DDO is based on 3.5. NW is based on 4th ed. They are both rather different from their base PnP game due to the nature of an MMO, but both are fairly close to their base D&D game despite that.
    I'm guessing that NW will never be as complex in terms of character generation as DDO will, but hopefully that will also avoid the glaring balance issues and min/maxing that plague DDO.
    Btw, I didn't see in your list of roles, "Healer" so that would actually explain a whole lot.
    Like I said, just rename the character classes to the so called role.
    If it was simply called "Leader" instead of "Cleric" there'd be a lot less angst.
    In 4th ed, Leader roles are the healers, as well as buffers and support. Bards, Clerics, Artificers etc are all leaders. Because 4th ed defines Hit points as partly exhaustion and will to continue as well as capability to soak up physical damage, healing is a lot less centralised.
  • griennegrienne Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    khatzhas wrote: »
    OK. So lets get constructive.
    Why was the average cleric unable to perform their role without the AS bug, and what is needed now, based on preview shard performance to let us perform that role more easily.

    We know that it is possible for clerics to do their job with the current changes, but we need adjustments that let even below-average clerics deal with T2 challenges, not just the top minority.

    So: Better healing over time? A burst heal, or shield/temporary HP for spikes? Persistent ground AoE effect, or one that will move with the cleric/other party member? Single target or AoE?

    Where is the average cleric failing, and what needs to be done to buff us so we don't fail?

    Whether we were buffed or nerfed compared to previous state is irrelevant.
    The only relevant consideration is our actual performance. Can we do our jobs or not?

    That is not the only relevant concern at all actually.

    There are countless threads about the issue as well as numerous suggested changes to make the class more active and in line with the idea of an action MMO.
  • maukadwellermaukadweller Member Posts: 71
    edited June 2013
    khatzhas wrote: »
    OK. So lets get constructive.
    Why was the average cleric unable to perform their role without the AS bug, and what is needed now, based on preview shard performance to let us perform that role more easily.

    We know that it is possible for clerics to do their job with the current changes, but we need adjustments that let even below-average clerics deal with T2 challenges, not just the top minority.

    So: Better healing over time? A burst heal, or shield/temporary HP for spikes? Persistent ground AoE effect, or one that will move with the cleric/other party member? Single target or AoE?

    Where is the average cleric failing, and what needs to be done to buff us so we don't fail?

    Whether we were buffed or nerfed compared to previous state is irrelevant.
    The only relevant consideration is our actual performance. Can we do our jobs or not?

    One of the tooltips on login states that the best way to regen health is through potions.

    That being the case, it would appear that it is everyone's job to be healing themselves and not be looking for a nannybot.

    In that light the changes are fine I suppose, except for clerics being utter trash in PvP now.
  • maukadwellermaukadweller Member Posts: 71
    edited June 2013
    khatzhas wrote: »
    DDO is based on 3.5. NW is based on 4th ed. They are both rather different from their base PnP game due to the nature of an MMO, but both are fairly close to their base D&D game despite that.
    I'm guessing that NW will never be as complex in terms of character generation as DDO will, but hopefully that will also avoid the glaring balance issues and min/maxing that plague DDO.

    In 4th ed, Leader roles are the healers, as well as buffers and support. Bards, Clerics, Artificers etc are all leaders. Because 4th ed defines Hit points as partly exhaustion and will to continue as well as capability to soak up physical damage, healing is a lot less centralised.

    Balance isn't as much in issue in DDO because PvP has no material rewards other than for laughs, and every class has certain strengths that aren't easily replicated by the others.

    As for min/maxing, I think you're hyping that quite a bit. I've never played with an optimal build and did well enough. Min/maxing generally results in cookie cutter builds, which will be more of an issue with this game as people begin to figure things out.
  • griennegrienne Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    One of the tooltips on login states that the best way to regen health is through potions.

    That being the case, it would appear that it is everyone's job to be healing themselves and not be looking for a nannybot.

    In that light the changes are fine I suppose, except for clerics being utter trash in PvP now.

    This is the real point.

    Clerics do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dmg, can't heal, don't have any viable function then so wth is the point?
  • stercogburnstercogburn Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 214 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    I know this isn't what people want to hear but I'm going to wait and see how my cleric plays after the patch goes live.

    Thing about test servers is that they are, well, for testing.
    Roo. Cleric. Mad as a bag of badgers, will heal for beer.

    Ancient Shadows: Mature. Sensible. Custard.
    Recruitment info at: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?462591-Ancient-Shadows-Become-a-Lion-Tamer-without-learning-Chartered-Accountancy-first!&highlight=ancient+shadows
  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Wow (not WoW) ...

    OP: You do know that boycotts rarely if ever work at all, right?
    @Everyone else: just because your idea of a Cleric versus what Cryptic's idea of a Cleric is doesn't mean you're right and they're wrong. It just means you have differing ideas and expectations. My own expectation: I'm happy if I'm survivable through end-game PvE content.

    Nothing wrong with whining about it, though. Just try not so hard to sound like your way is the only right way, that you are a world expert or something. Ummm, because you're not. The simple fact of the matter is if you want your Cleric to play like it plays in some other MMO you've played previous, then it would behoove you to go play THAT old MMO.

    Fact: this is Cryptic's house, to which you are guest. No one is holding a gun to your head to stay here. That's just how I see it.

    As for the whole "nerfing" idea? I don't think so. There's a lot of other changes, too, that people aren't taking into consideration - there are many aspect that must work in synergy for everything to be balanced. And if it were that easy to do, you'd be doing it (and you can't, so you may as well stop quarterbacking from the couch).
  • angryspriteangrysprite Member Posts: 4,982 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I know this isn't what people want to hear but I'm going to wait and see how my cleric plays after the patch goes live.

    Thing about test servers is that they are, well, for testing.

    NOOOOOOO!

    This very idea makes too much good sense! How DARE you!? You are supposed to fall in-line with all the complaining that Cryptic doesn't have a clue and how YOU are so much more brilliant than they are and how you'll boycott/quit/boycott AND quit forevermore if they don't listen to you and only you!

    You BLASPHEMER!
  • gardatgardat Member Posts: 268 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    grienne wrote: »
    This is the real point.

    Clerics do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dmg, can't heal, don't have any viable function then so wth is the point?

    There really isn't one. I went back to STO less than two weeks after doing all the T2 dungeons and I'll be playing Rift again for my fantasy MMO fix.

    We knew Neverwinter needed another 6-12 months to cook during the alpha/beta but since it was rushed to market it won't really be playable until maybe a year or two of re-balancing and nerfs/buffs takes place, as well as some structural changes to character development across the board.

    In the mean time I hope everyone likes doing content without healers because there isn't much reason to be playing a cleric any more. I imagine most (all?) will be re-rolling, moving on or simply allow them to gather dust until they get fixed. I know I am.
    486 DX2/66Mhz, 4MB SD-RAM, 16KB L-1 cache, 120MB HDD, 3.5" FDD, 2x CD-ROM, 8-Bit Soundblaster Pro, IBM Model M PS/2 keyboard, Microsoft trackball mouse, 256KB S3 graphics chip, 14" VGA CRT monitor, MS-DOS 6.22
  • griennegrienne Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    NOOOOOOO!

    This very idea makes too much good sense! How DARE you!? You are supposed to fall in-line with all the complaining that Cryptic doesn't have a clue and how YOU are so much more brilliant than they are and how you'll boycott/quit/boycott AND quit forevermore if they don't listen to you and only you!

    You BLASPHEMER!


    or you could play on the test server and find out now. idiot.
  • landragoonlandragoon Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I started playing NW in general, and DC in particular, because of how it advertised it's classes. Talking about how the DC is not a healbot, but more a support specialist that heals largely due to actively participating in combat.

    Reality: Cleric is a passive class. Our three most powerful features (Astral Shield, Hallowed Ground and Foresight) have little active play involved. Everything else (Sun Burst, Forgemaster's Flame; Healing Word?) gets mindlessly spammed on CD to maximize those three abilities, building Divinity (nice touch, really) and AP. At-Wills don't feel powerful at all and have long, clunky animations that cannot be canceled. Our only ability with clutch potential, Bastion of Health, has too long a cooldown to be of any use. Also don't understand why everyone seems to make such a big deal out of Linked Spirit. I don't know how effective the boosted effect from healing multiple targets his, but the weird requirements (Healing from Divinity + actually restoring HP) make it clunky to use unless it now works with Astral Shield. Also, considering most players build their stats right up to their soft caps anyway, stat-boosting buffs like Linked Spirit (or the CW's Prestidigitation) are pretty **** weak. Compare that to the Rogue's Critical Teamwork...

    I'd have loved a more active playstyle, as promised by abilities like Searing Light, Daunting Light and Divine Glow. Nuke for decent damage, reduce enemy defense, buff party damage? Repurpose Soul to restore serious amounts health to the party? Or Second Sight Prophecy of Doom?

    Reality: Offensive abilities have long cooldowns, low scaling and, outside of Daunting Light, low base damage. AoE cap of five for every spell make it impossible to even hit every mob on most dungeon pulls, further harming our damage potential. Currently, to even match an underequipped Rogue's single-target, trash-clearing DPS, you have to have a CW pull together every mob group for Divinity Searing Light to work, and most of your damage, especially from Daunting Light, will still be overkill rather than actual contribution. Why they decided to limit Cleric damage through AoE caps instead of gear-scaling total damage caps, I will probably never understand. As it is, however, a Cleric's offensive abilities seem to be intended for farming (Daunting Light, Searing Light), kiting (Chains of Blazing Light) and PvP (Break the Spirit, Hammer of Fate). Did I mention Terrifying Insight is pretty **** weak compared to self-buffs other classes pull off?

    For the offensive support side, Divinity Divine Glow is still bugged (reducing damage dealt by yourself/allies instead of increasing it) and not included in the upcoming fixes. Prophecy of Doom, considering the feat, suffers from split purposes - on the one hand, you want it to end early to get AP (maybe manage to layer Hallowed Ground and Divine Armor by yourself if enough adds are present to use Prophecy on), on the other hand, the feat wants it to run out. Maybe change the feat to heal based on damage the mob suffered, or maybe extra damage it took due to PoD? Repurpose Soul doesn't seem to work for most of our abilities.


    End of rant. I could go on about how our class features range from boring (most of them) to useless (Prophetic Action). How Guardian of Faith is useless as a skill and a huge **** trap. How Clerics feel in PvP most of the time out of coordinated groups. And on, and on, and on...
  • spani4rdspani4rd Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 297 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    If it was simply called "Leader" instead of "Cleric" there'd be a lot less angst.

    Not really, since the description of "Leader" is somebody who's always read for what's thrown at them, always has an answer on hand, able to deal with all the consecuences...We have no situational or responsive skills, and the few we do have are pretty garbage for pve raiding...chains is really the only one I can think of that's not terrible and can be used situationaly
  • khatzhaskhatzhas Member Posts: 268 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    One of the tooltips on login states that the best way to regen health is through potions.
    Are you sure that is all it says?
    Nothing about "between fights"?

    A lot of clerical healing abilities work best when cast in Divinity mode. Most clerics build divinity best by dealing damage, thus requiring the presence of a fight.
    Between fights, potions have no cooldown, and will let the cleric retain their divine power to use in the next fight. Doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't chug potions when you have to during a fight of course.
  • spani4rdspani4rd Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 297 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    khatzhas wrote: »
    Between fights, potions have no cooldown, and will let the cleric retain their divine power to use in the next fight. Doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't chug potions when you have to during a fight of course.

    Are you daft? you can toss your heals while not in divine mode...Who's going to waste money using up pots in between combat when you have access to free heals? Heals that will restore the DC's divine power, if he doesn't have it full
  • khatzhaskhatzhas Member Posts: 268 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    Balance isn't as much in issue in DDO because PvP has no material rewards other than for laughs, and every class has certain strengths that aren't easily replicated by the others.

    As for min/maxing, I think you're hyping that quite a bit. I've never played with an optimal build and did well enough. Min/maxing generally results in cookie cutter builds, which will be more of an issue with this game as people begin to figure things out.
    I would bet that the sheer difference between optimised and non-optimised characters in DDO is far greater than it will ever be in NW. Compare a base, non-optimised Fighter wearing quest rewards and drops with an optimal build WF Sorceror in Cannith-crafted and named gear for example. We're not talking PvP here (it is so rudimentary in DDO it can be ignored fairly safely.) We are talking PvE.
    The min/maxer, though picking the right class, race, skills gear etc is able to solo quests that the new player simply cannot, despite being of the same skill level in actually playing it. They can do higher-level quests, on harder difficulty, without having to try to form a party for.
    A min/maxer will often refuse a non-optimal build entry into their group, simply because that will make the run harder for them.
  • morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    spani4rd wrote: »
    Are you daft? you can toss your heals while not in divine mode...Who's going to waste money using up pots in between combat when you have access to free heals? Heals that will restore the DC's divine power, if he doesn't have it full

    "I run with AS, forgemasters and sunburst, and don't tend to slot divine favour since it's fussy about the heals it counts, so I can either change all my powers between each fight, or you can sit and wait for five sequential sunbursts. Or you can just drink a potion."

    So yeah: not that straightforward.
  • khatzhaskhatzhas Member Posts: 268 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    spani4rd wrote: »
    Are you daft? you can toss your heals while not in divine mode...Who's going to waste money using up pots in between combat when you have access to free heals? Heals that will restore the DC's divine power, if he doesn't have it full
    Really? What effective heals do clerics usually slot that work in non-divine mode? Sunburst does not give much, Healing Word is rarely slotted once heals like Forgemaster's Flame are available due to difficulty in targeting it, and a cleric would be unlikely to use it as the group runs to the next group of mobs, since its ticks will cause them to aggro on him.

    Wouldn't restoring DP without dealing damage require a specific class feature slotted or feat taken?
  • spani4rdspani4rd Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 297 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    khatzhas wrote: »
    Really? What effective heals do clerics usually slot that work in non-divine mode? Sunburst does not give much, Healing Word is rarely slotted once heals like Forgemaster's Flame are available due to difficulty in targeting it, and a cleric would be unlikely to use it as the group runs to the next group of mobs, since its ticks will cause them to aggro on him.

    Wouldn't restoring DP without dealing damage require a specific class feature slotted or feat taken?

    Yes, there's a feat in the righteous tree (ethereal boon) and a passive power (divine fortune). Pretty much every cleric has ethereal boon I'm sure, and if not, they should. You gain divine power when encounters come off CD, just have to cast and wait.
    I wouldn't run divine fortune main, but it's good on fights that are kite heavy, use that and healing word.
    Anways what you said at first implied having lots of time and just standing around waiting, in that case you can always flip some powers around and heal people up while regening more divine power, of course if your at full divine power then you can just throw down an astral shield for example.
    Really sunburst is the best (and you really never want to cast this in divine mode, just cast it normal then tab into divine mode before it activates), it may not be a huge heal, but short CD and builds divine power for you. Granted if your at like 1% life it's probably a good idea to take a health pot, but less assume a reasonable amount of HP, say 30+. If were running to the next group of mobs I can probably heal you up to 50%+ by then, and there's no reason you need to enter combat at 100% HP since AS goes down instantly, followed by FF normally.
    Honestly though the way to do it is to continue to pull groups to your party as you fight, not to kill each group individually and then run to the next, that's much slower. Because of this you can make your runs faster and keep people healed up easier since your AS does the work for you when it's down and then when you need to run farther to get to the next room or whatever after pull you have time to heal somebody up if they need it, and chances are they wont.
    I just wouldn't recomend to anybody to waste health pots and injury kits. Me and my mates are always having gold issues it seems, run efficiency is important
  • khatzhaskhatzhas Member Posts: 268 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    spani4rd wrote: »
    Anways what you said at first implied having lots of time and just standing around waiting, in that case you can always flip some powers around and heal people up while regening more divine power, of course if your at full divine power then you can just throw down an astral shield for example.
    Ah. Implying that certainly wasn't my intention: I was talking about the 5 second run to the next group of mobs, not an extended downtime between fights. Hence why the no cooldown out of combat for potions deserved a mention.
  • khatzhaskhatzhas Member Posts: 268 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2013
    grienne wrote: »
    or you could play on the test server and find out now. idiot.
    I do believe that there might be a slight chance that Angrysprite's post may not have been meant entirely seriously.

    Indeed he may have been indulging in parody or even, perish the thought, sarcasm.
    :rolleyes:
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