GF: Balance and Gameplay Update

perfectindigo

• Addressed an issue in which the client and server disagreed on the cooldown of Block, resulting in Blocking sometimes not being effective after releasing and re-pressing Block.
• Aggravating Strike: Damage from this power now properly scales with player level.
• Enforced Threat: Iron Warrior no longer reduces Guard recovery of Enforced Threat.
• Ferocious Reaction: This power no longer grants far more Defense than intended.
• Guard mitigation on high-damage attacks has been increased by 20%.
• Knight's Valor: This power now consistently applies to all members of the party.
• Knight's Valor: This power is no longer cancelled by knockbacks or interrupts.
• Mark: Visual effects no longer scale up quite as much on larger enemies.
• Shield Slam: Damage from this power now properly scales with player level.
• The amount of damage the Guardian Fighter can block before breaking guard has been increased by 10%.
• Threat generation on all abilities has been increased by 35%.
• Threatening Rush: The third rank of this power no longer requires 40 points spent.
• Tide of Iron: The duration of the debuff is now consistent.
• Villain's Menace: This power no longer prevents Movement buffs from affecting the player while active.
• Feat: Shield Defense: All ranks of this feat now properly increase Armor Class.
• Feat: Wrathful Warrior: The damage buff from this feat has been reduced to match the tooltip.

So ...
Fixes block.
Adds more block.
Fixes some skills.
Fixes a couple feats.
Increases threat.

Good, but smaller scale than I hoped. Doesn't seem like it will be enough to deal with the basic problems.

mercenaryiii

The update looks just about perfect to me. 35% more threat, fixed client/server Guard issue, increased the amount of Guard meter by 10%. 10% to Guard may not seem like much, but we are not supposed to be invincible gods at the same time.

supjeremiah

Where are my damage buffs ;(

klangeddin

I feel slightly disappointed. Of course there are some positives, surely it's better than nothing. But overall I think they failed to address what was "wrong" with the class.

bonfire01

Disappointing set of changes as a whole. Block'll still be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in t2 as 10% more of breaking in seconds won't effect much. It's still basically useful to block a controlling/damaging effect you can't get out of cause you're so bloody immobile. Most of the feats and passives are still trash and 35% extra threat still won't help with gathering up adds waves before they batter the now non stacking DC(s).

I'd have preferred them removing the limit on enforced threat over 35% more threat overall but it's all a moot point since it can still mow you down unless you run around kiting it. A CW's singularity will still be a much more effective tanking method, 2 chaining them will still be more effective than a GF.

So we can continue hybrid DPSing and being too flimsy to tank, even if we can hold the agro (as long as we can get it in the first place with the limits on targets for our AoE other than cleave).

ufgt

klangeddin wrote: »

I feel slightly disappointed. Of course there are some positives, surely it's better than nothing. But overall I think they failed to address what was "wrong" with the class.

Short of a complete redesign of the class, they won't/can't/aren't able to completely fix the class through adjustments and tweaks. We learn to deal.

therouterninja

Honestly, this patch is perfect. Fixed block, added mitigation, +10 block, and threat generation...what else do people want? PvP wise, GF's are fine, considering that now Rogue SE is nerfed to hell (-60% ouch).

twisted0utlaw

Im just happy we didn't get a 60% damage reduction

dilanio

Not sure what you mean by "wrong" with the class. As it is we're pretty awesome just can't tank. Now we should be able to tank. If we need more they'll address that later. 35% threat increase is huge. Most people were asking for a 25% increase and they just gave us 10% more threat more block and greater recovery.

Looks like a real good start in the right direction.

penpenstar

disappointed. But a little satisfied

Mark: Visual effects no longer scale up quite as much on larger enemies.

REALLY? That's all they thought about on marks? It's the single most useless class feature in-game, it gets off when you get hit. They should turn it into a debuff duration thing so that in can be useful in both pvp and pve.


I was also expecting a reconfiguration of ability score bonuses, like placing DoT damage resist from dex into CON, then +crit chance into dex.

enforced threat received some love (but not enough) bec of the increased threat gen, but then again everyskill now has that threat gen, I was expecting they'll remove the target limit (5) it's very essential to tanking GFs yet it only pulls 5?

supjeremiah

penpenstar wrote: »

disappointed. But a little satisfied

Mark: Visual effects no longer scale up quite as much on larger enemies.

REALLY? That's all they thought about on marks? It's the single most useless class feature in-game, it gets off when you get hit, it's more of a pve skill with little use in pvp.


I was also expecting a reconfiguration of ability score bonuses, like placing DoT damage resist from dex into CON, then +crit chance into dex.

enforced threat received some love (but not enough) bec of the increased threat gen, but then again everyskill now has that threat gen, I was expecting they'll remove the target limit (5) it's very essential to tanking GFs yet it only pulls 5?

If you pull more than 5 you'll probably die.

mercenaryiii

*wants damage buffs, is playing Guardian Fighter class*

That's a sarcastic wink, riiiight? :P

Can anyone who says there is still something "wrong" with the class in the midst of these patch notes expand on their point? I can see the T2 dungeons perspective with Guard breaking, but you can acquire set armor that buffs your Guard meter, which will work nicely with the features of this patch.

supjeremiah

mercenaryiii wrote: »

*wants damage buffs, is playing Guardian Fighter class*

That's a sarcastic wink, riiiight? :P

Can anyone who says there is still something "wrong" with the class in the midst of these patch notes expand on their point? I can see the T2 dungeons perspective with Guard breaking, but you can acquire set armor that buffs your Guard meter, which will work nicely with the features of this patch.

If we have ~20 mobs hitting you, the buffed guard meter still wont be enough.

dkcandy

supjeremiah wrote: »

If we have ~20 mobs hitting you, the buffed guard meter still wont be enough.

Agreed. Simple test is just go into the last zone and run around and grab 3+ packs. See how long you can survive with 10+ mobs hitting on you, not including any CC.

penpenstar

its gets more strategic to use then, offensive builds can tank more than 5 just fine with FRecov well yeah having no target limits is fatal but come on, 7 would've been the magic number if you ask me, i can tank without dying with the way things are now with knight's valor up.


am also surprised they didnt touch teneb

degraafination

mercenaryiii wrote: »

*wants damage buffs, is playing Guardian Fighter class*

That's a sarcastic wink, riiiight? :P

Can anyone who says there is still something "wrong" with the class in the midst of these patch notes expand on their point? I can see the T2 dungeons perspective with Guard breaking, but you can acquire set armor that buffs your Guard meter, which will work nicely with the features of this patch.

No Tab Skill for PVP

simkinfool

Personally I would have liked to seen 2 big changes that they seem to have completely missed.

Mark should be doing 2 things it is currently completely missing. The first is that it should be reducing the damage of the target to any thing not us at the outset(hello -2 to attack rolls?). The feat should simply improve upon that effect. The second thing Mark should be doing is when a Marked Foe hits anything not us within our melee range we automatically deal weapon damage to it(attacks of opportunity). These are the absolute basic effects of mark from 4e. It's why the ability exists.

Into the Fray, this ability needs the animation lock removed. An ability specifically designed to increase mobility should not be rooting us in place for 2 seconds while we cast it.

mercenaryiii

When 20+ mobs are hitting you, that is a good thing, honestly (they are focusing on you). The responsibility of the fight after that point falls to other members to burn down these mobs and keep you healed up. Even if your Guard gets drained quickly (which is expected, you should not be invincible), you have your damage mitigation from the Defense stat and Armor Class. It's better to have them hitting you than your Devoted Cleric.

You guys seem to be expecting a Guard meter that lasts long enough such that the game would become trivial or a cakewalk.

Also, don't forget that you have Threatening Rush to mark targets your Enforced Threat doesn't grab. The target limit of Enforced Threat has never bothered me, as I just grab the others with Rush.

Edit: Your tab skill (Mark) applies a damage mitigation reduction debuff on your target. I've honestly never looked up how much it reduces, but it is still better than not marking your targets. So it is still viable in PvP.

penpenstar

@degraafination

so trueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee all clases are deeply defined by what their tab skill is, it's the class feature after all. Our class feature on the other hand, sux. You can apply it infinitely in an AoE with TRush, so what's the point in it aside from the long range taunting of mob groups and bosses -_-. I'm really surprised they didn't fix mark.

altho yet you can mark people in pvp it helps with the damage, but when going 1on1 with someone, you can just forget that we have a tab skill, it wears off in 1 hit. Only time it's useful is when you're using some surprise tactic cheese build.

also agree about the chanelling part of ITF it's absurd

mercenaryiii

It's not as amazing as other Tab abilities, penpenstar, I'll definitely admit that. The only thing it does in PvP is provide a damage mitigation reduction debuff on the target(s) though, which is generically good. When looking at, say, a Control Wizard's Tab mechanic, it does pale in comparison in PvP.

penpenstar

i can easily be fixed, make mark a duration debuff, we get the mobs in pve, it becomes useful in pvp.

s73v

mercenaryiii wrote: »

It's not as amazing as other Tab abilities, penpenstar, I'll definitely admit that. The only thing it does in PvP is provide a damage mitigation reduction debuff on the target(s) though, which is generically good. When looking at, say, a Control Wizard's Tab mechanic, it does pale in comparison in PvP.

I wish we could slot one of a few select abilities in the Tab box (the buff encounters like Into the Fray, Knights Valor and AE abilities like Enforced Taunt and Frontline Surge). I went Tactician trying to make a CC/debuff build, but it is hard to utilize those feats together when one encounter is always Into the Fray and most guardian abilities are on long cooldowns (except for Lunging Strike).

simkinfool

I use enforced threat, into the fray and knight's valor, then swap in frontline surge when KV breaks. I generally don't have too many issues in PvE with that setup (Tactician spec).

While my damage may not be amazing, the double Villain's menace you can get (IttF->VM->KV->VM) can be rather amusing. Also as long as KV lasts for even half the run I'll be double to triple the next person's damage taken.

mercenaryiii

simkinfool, that is my exact setup for Encounter Powers. I actually use Knight's Valor for the allied damage absorption, the threat it provides is a nice little bonus.

tahlen80

the movement on aggravating strike needs to be taken out of the game.

kenji1134

Also, why do Cleave, Sure Strike, Tide of Iron, and Crushing Surge apply stacks of Iron Guard (-2% dmg / stack), but guarding at-wills do not?

kcloud

The one thing I think they could have added would be to fix knockback/knockdown/Tossup to being so common on the GF in the higher level dungeons. Too much red and too much moving around or guarding to give us time to use other abilities. Guard only goes so far and the meter is at a premium. I don't mind stuns but Toss-a-rounds get annoying after a bit.

simkinfool

Aggravating strike and shield slam do not proc anything as far as I've been able to determine. They do not proc any of the weapon based enchants. Someone with spare tenebrous should check em (I don't use them).

Villain's menace helps me a lot with the knock around issue, and with tactics rolling VM is pretty easy.

That's the major reason I use KV, because KV + Astral Shield is a massive damage reduction for everyone else. Using it without an AS can get tricky however. Also Supremacy of Steel sometimes seems to work off the KV damage but I haven't been able to conclusively determine which it's working correctly on and which it's popping up the 0's for.

penpenstar

simkinfool wrote: »

I use enforced threat, into the fray and knight's valor, then swap in frontline surge when KV breaks. I generally don't have too many issues in PvE with that setup (Tactician spec).

While my damage may not be amazing, the double Villain's menace you can get (IttF->VM->KV->VM) can be rather amusing. Also as long as KV lasts for even half the run I'll be double to triple the next person's damage taken.

that's not a distinct tactitian advantage over the other 2 trees. I run the same encounter set with my conqueror, can also do double VMs even 3 when CW uses singularity (24% bonus from recov + 24 con = 39% AP gain), plus i have better damage than most of my team. Usually 2nd behind the TR around 6m+ damage in a standard karrundax run (stated that as example because u dont drop mobs there so cw has no advantage on damage)


still, mark should be fixed.

zzzzzdank

simkinfool wrote: »

Aggravating strike and shield slam do not proc anything as far as I've been able to determine. They do not proc any of the weapon based enchants. Someone with spare tenebrous should check em (I don't use them).

Villain's menace helps me a lot with the knock around issue, and with tactics rolling VM is pretty easy.

That's the major reason I use KV, because KV + Astral Shield is a massive damage reduction for everyone else. Using it without an AS can get tricky however. Also Supremacy of Steel sometimes seems to work off the KV damage but I haven't been able to conclusively determine which it's working correctly on and which it's popping up the 0's for.

Pairing Villians Menace with Into the Fray works out pretty well as with ITF on I can pretty close to instantly fill my AP by blocking certain bigger attacks or lots of little ones at once.. (though I have the action surge feat with 5 points, not sure how it is without that) . Conq spec.

simkinfool

I have a dwarf with protector spec, meh gear but I was using it to test broken powers. A different dwarf with conq spec and it's not bad but not really my cup of tea (when I block something and my guard meter drops it feels like a punishment, rather than a boon when it's full. It's all perception).

My human is tactics specced and he has by far the best gear and to me at least is the most fun to play.