Maybe i dont understand at all the DnD rules but in general in the mmorpg games the mage clases even the debuffers (or "controllers" like you call them here) hits hard, maybe not the best damage, but the magic classes ever stay in the top dps classes.
I dont know why u dont want to accept the CW is a dps, its so hard for u?
Yes they are "controllers" but they have the enough dmg, skills and feats to be considered a dps as well
And about the GWF well... they arent dps at all, they more like an hybrid, they fit perfectly in the role of subtank, they obviosly dont have the dps of a rouge, but they have better defense and survavility, yes they need a buff, but u must understand its an hybrid class not a dps (also the game calls them a "controller" too)
I am agree, just buff the fighters and cleric (maybe low they aggro generation and buff they damage or low they self heal debuff for the cleric)
Sorry for my bad english...
Every class can be DPS by your definition because every class can spec towards more damage. So that means that clerics should be able to top DPS charts if they don't slot any heals or defense buffs since that's what they gain instead of damage. However I'd bet money that even a fully specced/geared dps cleric couldn't touch the DPS of a TR or CW.
You're not understanding that everything should be balanced. If you gain control you lose damage, the idea here is that since you control the fight you need to use attrition(lower damage over a long period of time). Clerics trade damage for heals and buffs. GF should trade damage for survivability. GWF trade survivability for damage+AOE. TR's should trade survivability for their damage. TR currently don't give up survivability for their damage though and they also have control. Stealth is a HUGE buff to survivability and it should be something they need to give up some damage to get. Ideally you could spec a TR for no stealth and no control to get the most damage, obviously if you spec for stealth your damage drops in accordance with your survivability increase and same for control. CW should be the same, spec for control and your damage drops.
As for mages always hitting hard...no. A DPS specced mage could hit hard but so could a DPS specced warrior, rogue, priest, druid, etc. What you're seeing is that all those other classes get pigeonholed into healing or tanking so they can't DPS. Since most high end PvE content doesn't let you control the fight mages can't do anything else but spec into DPS. The reason you see them as a top DPS class is because the other classes are forced into not dpsing in order to fill the other roles.
Another problem in this game is that damage and control rules all. Survivability doesn't hold up to the insane TR and CW damage. Healing doesn't heal for nearly enough to cover the damage classes are putting out. That means that damage and control need toned down so that healing and survivability can be on par(IE equal trade offs). That ultimately means that TR's and CW's will be nerfed because it is the easiest most logical solution. Even if they buffed the damage of other classes that doesn't fix the issue of people dieing in seconds, it actually makes it worse. Unless they give clerics instant 20k heals healing will be useless as will the heavy armor. That means the classes with the least damage/control will be useless and that's still bad balance. That of course would mean defense would be buffed so people don't die as fast and that in turn would allow healing to do it's job.
Long story short is it is easier to just nerf damage/control than to spend a long period of time trying to balance other classes up to that level only to ultimately have the end result be equal to just nerfing damage and control.
The clerics in this game are Devoted clerics, not any form of battle cleric, even the best DPS spec for a pure Devoted cleric has no chance of hitting a high DPS. Strong single attacks with high cool down is our best bet always. OH and right now we are trading damage and heals for debuffs on ourself across the board with our survivability. Amazingly we cant heal ourselves properly. OH plus any heal we do results in the entire dungeon trying to attack us. Clerics are the class that got the short stick after the first beta weekend.
All wizards and mages, note the word all. NO matter what subclass of this group, all of them have high damage spells and abilities. If you complain they do to much damage your complaining about the very game system this game is designed after. D&D.
Lets see how about we remove stealth from the class that is oh i don't know meant to be stealthy. Hmm amazing logic that, remove the ability that the class is built around.
You guys need to stop complaining that a class that does what it is meant to do is OP, when the other classes curently can't fill their roles.
Actually go and make a thread about how to make your class that you think can not fill its role, due to broken game mechanics currently in play, work for its role. Stop trying to break other classes and end up killing off any fun in the game
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whosjohngalt1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
The clerics in this game are Devoted clerics, not any form of battle cleric, even the best DPS spec for a pure Devoted cleric has no chance of hitting a high DPS. Strong single attacks with high cool down is our best bet always. OH and right now we are trading damage and heals for debuffs on ourself across the board with our survivability. Amazingly we cant heal ourselves properly. OH plus any heal we do results in the entire dungeon trying to attack us. Clerics are the class that got the short stick after the first beta weekend.
All wizards and mages, note the word all. NO matter what subclass of this group, all of them have high damage spells and abilities. If you complain they do to much damage your complaining about the very game system this game is designed after. D&D.
Lets see how about we remove stealth from the class that is oh i don't know meant to be stealthy. Hmm amazing logic that, remove the ability that the class is built around.
You guys need to stop complaining that a class that does what it is meant to do is OP, when the other classes curently can't fill their roles.
Actually go and make a thread about how to make your class that you think can not fill its role, due to broken game mechanics currently in play, work for its role. Stop trying to break other classes and end up killing off any fun in the game
It's amazing how you contradict yourself in your argument, an then make statements you essentially made up and try to pass them off as fact.
You make the argument that because the class is called "devoted" instead of "battle", it can't spec dps. Then you say all wizards, even ones named "controller" instead of "battle", should do zomg dps. Why? Because you say so? Is there a rule anywhere that says all wizards do crazy dps? If we're really talking dnd, and lets go pnp for fun, a wizard would have to choose his or her spells ahea of time, choosing either control or damage.
The whole point is balance. If you have more control, you do less damage. If you have more damage, ou have less survivability. Think of it as sliders. As one goes up, another should go down. Even better, think of it like stat allocation. No one gets to put 99s in every slot. If a GF is supposed to be tanky, then the system needs allow the survivability of the class, you know, survive the damage of a dps class
It's amazing how you contradict yourself in your argument, an then make statements you essentially made up and try to pass them off as fact.
You make the argument that because the class is called "devoted" instead of "battle", it can't spec dps. Then you say all wizards, even ones named "controller" instead of "battle", should do zomg dps. Why? Because you say so? Is there a rule anywhere that says all wizards do crazy dps? If we're really talking dnd, and lets go pnp for fun, a wizard would have to choose his or her spells ahea of time, choosing either control or damage.
The whole point is balance. If you have more control, you do less damage. If you have more damage, ou have less survivability. Think of it as sliders. As one goes up, another should go down. Even better, think of it like stat allocation. No one gets to put 99s in every slot. If a GF is supposed to be tanky, then the system needs allow the survivability of the class, you know, survive the damage of a dps class
Because the class of wizard is based upon offensive spells. they inheritly have damage as at thier disposal. That is the basic foundation of all wizards.
Where as a cleric, no matter what they are battle or devoted. No one ever thinks cleric and damage because the suffix of class Cleric, is of healing not damage. A Battle Cleric means a cleric that is more battle oriented.
Even if the class was named HAMSTER Wizard, its spells at its disposal is going to be offensive regardless.
he's not contradicting himself at all. But a Cleric especially a Devoted Cleric really wouldnt be anywhere near the top of damage charts, because no matter what, a Devoted Cleric is not an offensive unit, but a defensive support unit.
whosjohngalt, I'm guessing you dont see that this game is based upon D&D. MY comments are in relation as to how those classes in D&D, the very game this mmo is based upon, result in near enough the same things occuring as here.
A devoted cleric is the type of cleric focused purely upon healing and buffing, not topping the DPS. Even the battle focused Battle Cleric in D&D can't (unless your fellow players are awful) out damage any class of magic user, or rouge subclass.
Even in my opinion the weakest of all magic users for direct damage the necromancer class, which really are just support, still can outdamage a cleric or any fighter.
A control Wizard has spells designed to cause damage while controlling. They do less damage than the rouges do, wheras a pure damage magic class would do more. This is reflected in this game.
Rouges, they have stealth, they are meant to be able to sneak about and go undetected. They have the ability to do huge sneak damage, they are meant to be able to achieve high single sneak attack damage. This is also reflected in the game.
The rouge and the CW are not broken right now. Proposals to nerf them well break the class and what they are meant to mirror.
DC is slightly broken but for the most part only in PvE.
GWF is very broken in relation to its mirror.
GF ive not played as yet, however their aggro control does appear to be broken.
I thought TRs were somewhat underpowered against CWs and overpowered against GFs and DCs (but only in 1-1s or against bad players) until a week ago -- then they "nerfed" dodging by adding an extra layer of ping dependency. Now my CW only successfully dodges about 70% of the time, which makes him feel much weaker against any melee enemies who can get close to him.
Conversely, my TR now regularly gets knocked around by GFs and pummelled by GWFs (who were the only real beneficiaries of the dodge change). For people with non-US ping, the PvP game actually seems pretty balanced right now; if the low-ping game still needs balancing, I'd advocate making any nerfs in a way that alleviates the importance of ping in PvP by increasing skill casting times.
Every class can be DPS by your definition because every class can spec towards more damage. So that means that clerics should be able to top DPS charts if they don't slot any heals or defense buffs since that's what they gain instead of damage. However I'd bet money that even a fully specced/geared dps cleric couldn't touch the DPS of a TR or CW.
You're not understanding that everything should be balanced. If you gain control you lose damage, the idea here is that since you control the fight you need to use attrition(lower damage over a long period of time). Clerics trade damage for heals and buffs. GF should trade damage for survivability. GWF trade survivability for damage+AOE. TR's should trade survivability for their damage. TR currently don't give up survivability for their damage though and they also have control. Stealth is a HUGE buff to survivability and it should be something they need to give up some damage to get. Ideally you could spec a TR for no stealth and no control to get the most damage, obviously if you spec for stealth your damage drops in accordance with your survivability increase and same for control. CW should be the same, spec for control and your damage drops.
As for mages always hitting hard...no. A DPS specced mage could hit hard but so could a DPS specced warrior, rogue, priest, druid, etc. What you're seeing is that all those other classes get pigeonholed into healing or tanking so they can't DPS. Since most high end PvE content doesn't let you control the fight mages can't do anything else but spec into DPS. The reason you see them as a top DPS class is because the other classes are forced into not dpsing in order to fill the other roles.
Another problem in this game is that damage and control rules all. Survivability doesn't hold up to the insane TR and CW damage. Healing doesn't heal for nearly enough to cover the damage classes are putting out. That means that damage and control need toned down so that healing and survivability can be on par(IE equal trade offs). That ultimately means that TR's and CW's will be nerfed because it is the easiest most logical solution. Even if they buffed the damage of other classes that doesn't fix the issue of people dieing in seconds, it actually makes it worse. Unless they give clerics instant 20k heals healing will be useless as will the heavy armor. That means the classes with the least damage/control will be useless and that's still bad balance. That of course would mean defense would be buffed so people don't die as fast and that in turn would allow healing to do it's job.
Long story short is it is easier to just nerf damage/control than to spend a long period of time trying to balance other classes up to that level only to ultimately have the end result be equal to just nerfing damage and control.
I dont know why u mention the DC, I was talking about the GWF and CW damage, but well they never outdamage any dps class, even if they stack power and crit.
And about the trade of damage for survavility, well actually the CW can "trade" some damage for recovery, if u take recovery instead of power, ap or crit, u will loose some dmg, but your skill will recharge faster, and well u can control better.
And I dont know why u complain about the rouge stealth, stealth its a must have in every rouge type class in almost any game.
In the endgame, normally all that people that can "kill u in 3 seconds" are people with uber gear, lower the damage in general will weak that people, but will make even harder for the not so well geared players to kill them.
And that happen in almost every game, when u reach the max level and get OP gear, in pvp every one shot the others players, its not something new and its something that not every game can fix and player well, they must learn to play smart for win
personally I feel they should leave GWF alone (other than fixing the unstoppable bug) and just nerf the other classes. PvP is just not fun when you can just 1-2 shot people. This isn't Golden Eye with the golden gun..
I personally think that GF is the most OP PvP class. Since they can just about always 2-3 shot anyone in end gear.
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brostynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 12Arc User
edited June 2013
It sucks there are only two classes worth playing if you want to PvP. Any other class is just frustration.
The classes are way out of whack. Rogues have no defense? I'll take dodge over broken block/sprint any day. Daze isn't a cc? Its the longest CC in the game. Yep, even longer than choke, since you can jump out of choke 80% of the time.
Those of you hoping for Cryptic to fix this situation have no idea who we're dealing with. There are only two options here: CW or TR.
Rogues are totally not fine , their smokebomb is the main reason they are OP
Clerics , if they shield stack just push them out of the area. but if the other team knows how to counter astral shield, the cleric is pretty much forced to go some form of offence , which gives them sort of a similar role to GFs , except weaker , forward bunker of sorts.
GWF - they probly need some buffing , weaker than all other classes.
CW - they eat clerics , GWFs and rogues who aren't awake . GFs give them problems. pretty balanced as well.
GFs are the most balanced imo. deadly if they gear/spec dps and know how to block the crucial stuff.
all classes are balanced , except for rogues and their smokebomb.
1) Shield stack has been nerfed on test. Clerics can do very high DPS in PvP, my cleric can kill someone not getting heals in 3-5 seconds.
2) GWFs are already borderline OP, with the new changes they are stupidly OP. High uptime of CC immunity? Check. Stupidly high survivability? Check. Super high burst damage? Check. Best CC in the game? Check. Might have to level mine up to 60 if the changes all go through.
3) CWs are fine with the exception of Rays. Rays is getting nerfed. They will be pretty balanced afterwards.
4) I agree that smokebomb is annoying, but its not OP. In a group situation it gives me hassles on my cleric, but one on one it isn't enough for the rogue to kill me if I have my shield down, which I always do. GWF and GF CC is far more effective than rogue CC. 'Control' Wizards probably have the worst CC out of everyone ironically.
Excuse me, but the TR is too tanky. Maybe you've been playing a different game... ok, the stats tell you 600 defense, but the dodge meter states otherwise. Why wouldn't they nerf what they obviously have to? Buffing the weaker classes seems to be more work than nerfing the 2 overpowered ones.
Non - cc class eh? Then what is up with that daze skill?
Nice try though.
Peace.
Being able to dodge doesn't make rogues a "tank". That's the most ridiculous claim I've ever heard. And every class has a stun, so every class is cc? Nonsense.
A rich rogue nowadays is fit company for any gentleman; and the world, my dear, hath not such a contempt for roguery as you imagine. - John HAMSTER
Tone down the ridiculous dailies of CW and TR and buff GF and GWF.(and cleric too I guess).
-Note: Just for pvp.
Please, stop crying about:
No DR.
-At 60 it hardly matters, if they used a damaging spell or a cc spell your still going to die 2-3v1. That is how it should be. This isn't a game where you should just run around in circles till your team shows up.
TR's killing you.
-Go figure you'd die by the single target non-cc class with the least amount of defense the most.
-Learn to kite.
Clerics healing
-At 60, not an issue.
No DR is hilarious. I can basically stunlock anyone into the ground on my GF if my daily is up.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
I think all classes should have 1 hp and do 1 pt of damage. Then it would be balanced.
Seriously, I'd pay for a single-player version of this game with some tunable options, just to get away from people demanding that other people's rules have to be changed. It's just lots of aggro for everyone involved. I like the *style* of some MMOs, including Cryptic's, but the substance keeps changing and rarely for the better.
While buffing everyone sounds nice so you don't hurt peoples delicate feelings, it is just not realistic.
If class X is more powerful than class Y, you buff Y.
Now class Y is more powerful than class Z, so you buff Z.
Now Z is more powerful than X, so you buff X.
repeat.
in a few months you have everyone running around 1 shotting everyone else.
Nobody likes to be nerfed, I understand, but you have to be realistic. The game has to stay within a set of parameters so there has to be an equal number of drops as rises. (nerfs and buffs)
Try to play a fighter (any of then) then you will see it.
Fighters will never be happy until they can steam roll everyone without dying once.
The rogue is suppose to be able to assassinate like it does. But you guys make it seem like rogues do it every single encounter with every member of your team. No, a rogue doesn't do dailies every encounter. An average rogue probably uses a daily 4 or 5 times a match which means 4 or 5 kills. That's it. Now some rogues might be able to daily more with gear helping out but an ungeared rogue probably struggles to pull off 4 dailies per match.
Comments
Every class can be DPS by your definition because every class can spec towards more damage. So that means that clerics should be able to top DPS charts if they don't slot any heals or defense buffs since that's what they gain instead of damage. However I'd bet money that even a fully specced/geared dps cleric couldn't touch the DPS of a TR or CW.
You're not understanding that everything should be balanced. If you gain control you lose damage, the idea here is that since you control the fight you need to use attrition(lower damage over a long period of time). Clerics trade damage for heals and buffs. GF should trade damage for survivability. GWF trade survivability for damage+AOE. TR's should trade survivability for their damage. TR currently don't give up survivability for their damage though and they also have control. Stealth is a HUGE buff to survivability and it should be something they need to give up some damage to get. Ideally you could spec a TR for no stealth and no control to get the most damage, obviously if you spec for stealth your damage drops in accordance with your survivability increase and same for control. CW should be the same, spec for control and your damage drops.
As for mages always hitting hard...no. A DPS specced mage could hit hard but so could a DPS specced warrior, rogue, priest, druid, etc. What you're seeing is that all those other classes get pigeonholed into healing or tanking so they can't DPS. Since most high end PvE content doesn't let you control the fight mages can't do anything else but spec into DPS. The reason you see them as a top DPS class is because the other classes are forced into not dpsing in order to fill the other roles.
Another problem in this game is that damage and control rules all. Survivability doesn't hold up to the insane TR and CW damage. Healing doesn't heal for nearly enough to cover the damage classes are putting out. That means that damage and control need toned down so that healing and survivability can be on par(IE equal trade offs). That ultimately means that TR's and CW's will be nerfed because it is the easiest most logical solution. Even if they buffed the damage of other classes that doesn't fix the issue of people dieing in seconds, it actually makes it worse. Unless they give clerics instant 20k heals healing will be useless as will the heavy armor. That means the classes with the least damage/control will be useless and that's still bad balance. That of course would mean defense would be buffed so people don't die as fast and that in turn would allow healing to do it's job.
Long story short is it is easier to just nerf damage/control than to spend a long period of time trying to balance other classes up to that level only to ultimately have the end result be equal to just nerfing damage and control.
All wizards and mages, note the word all. NO matter what subclass of this group, all of them have high damage spells and abilities. If you complain they do to much damage your complaining about the very game system this game is designed after. D&D.
Lets see how about we remove stealth from the class that is oh i don't know meant to be stealthy. Hmm amazing logic that, remove the ability that the class is built around.
You guys need to stop complaining that a class that does what it is meant to do is OP, when the other classes curently can't fill their roles.
Actually go and make a thread about how to make your class that you think can not fill its role, due to broken game mechanics currently in play, work for its role. Stop trying to break other classes and end up killing off any fun in the game
It's amazing how you contradict yourself in your argument, an then make statements you essentially made up and try to pass them off as fact.
You make the argument that because the class is called "devoted" instead of "battle", it can't spec dps. Then you say all wizards, even ones named "controller" instead of "battle", should do zomg dps. Why? Because you say so? Is there a rule anywhere that says all wizards do crazy dps? If we're really talking dnd, and lets go pnp for fun, a wizard would have to choose his or her spells ahea of time, choosing either control or damage.
The whole point is balance. If you have more control, you do less damage. If you have more damage, ou have less survivability. Think of it as sliders. As one goes up, another should go down. Even better, think of it like stat allocation. No one gets to put 99s in every slot. If a GF is supposed to be tanky, then the system needs allow the survivability of the class, you know, survive the damage of a dps class
Because the class of wizard is based upon offensive spells. they inheritly have damage as at thier disposal. That is the basic foundation of all wizards.
Where as a cleric, no matter what they are battle or devoted. No one ever thinks cleric and damage because the suffix of class Cleric, is of healing not damage. A Battle Cleric means a cleric that is more battle oriented.
Even if the class was named HAMSTER Wizard, its spells at its disposal is going to be offensive regardless.
he's not contradicting himself at all. But a Cleric especially a Devoted Cleric really wouldnt be anywhere near the top of damage charts, because no matter what, a Devoted Cleric is not an offensive unit, but a defensive support unit.
A devoted cleric is the type of cleric focused purely upon healing and buffing, not topping the DPS. Even the battle focused Battle Cleric in D&D can't (unless your fellow players are awful) out damage any class of magic user, or rouge subclass.
Even in my opinion the weakest of all magic users for direct damage the necromancer class, which really are just support, still can outdamage a cleric or any fighter.
A control Wizard has spells designed to cause damage while controlling. They do less damage than the rouges do, wheras a pure damage magic class would do more. This is reflected in this game.
Rouges, they have stealth, they are meant to be able to sneak about and go undetected. They have the ability to do huge sneak damage, they are meant to be able to achieve high single sneak attack damage. This is also reflected in the game.
The rouge and the CW are not broken right now. Proposals to nerf them well break the class and what they are meant to mirror.
DC is slightly broken but for the most part only in PvE.
GWF is very broken in relation to its mirror.
GF ive not played as yet, however their aggro control does appear to be broken.
Conversely, my TR now regularly gets knocked around by GFs and pummelled by GWFs (who were the only real beneficiaries of the dodge change). For people with non-US ping, the PvP game actually seems pretty balanced right now; if the low-ping game still needs balancing, I'd advocate making any nerfs in a way that alleviates the importance of ping in PvP by increasing skill casting times.
I dont know why u mention the DC, I was talking about the GWF and CW damage, but well they never outdamage any dps class, even if they stack power and crit.
And about the trade of damage for survavility, well actually the CW can "trade" some damage for recovery, if u take recovery instead of power, ap or crit, u will loose some dmg, but your skill will recharge faster, and well u can control better.
And I dont know why u complain about the rouge stealth, stealth its a must have in every rouge type class in almost any game.
In the endgame, normally all that people that can "kill u in 3 seconds" are people with uber gear, lower the damage in general will weak that people, but will make even harder for the not so well geared players to kill them.
And that happen in almost every game, when u reach the max level and get OP gear, in pvp every one shot the others players, its not something new and its something that not every game can fix and player well, they must learn to play smart for win
The classes are way out of whack. Rogues have no defense? I'll take dodge over broken block/sprint any day. Daze isn't a cc? Its the longest CC in the game. Yep, even longer than choke, since you can jump out of choke 80% of the time.
Those of you hoping for Cryptic to fix this situation have no idea who we're dealing with. There are only two options here: CW or TR.
1) Shield stack has been nerfed on test. Clerics can do very high DPS in PvP, my cleric can kill someone not getting heals in 3-5 seconds.
2) GWFs are already borderline OP, with the new changes they are stupidly OP. High uptime of CC immunity? Check. Stupidly high survivability? Check. Super high burst damage? Check. Best CC in the game? Check. Might have to level mine up to 60 if the changes all go through.
3) CWs are fine with the exception of Rays. Rays is getting nerfed. They will be pretty balanced afterwards.
4) I agree that smokebomb is annoying, but its not OP. In a group situation it gives me hassles on my cleric, but one on one it isn't enough for the rogue to kill me if I have my shield down, which I always do. GWF and GF CC is far more effective than rogue CC. 'Control' Wizards probably have the worst CC out of everyone ironically.
CC needs diminishing returns.
Damage needs to be reduced across the board.
Being able to dodge doesn't make rogues a "tank". That's the most ridiculous claim I've ever heard. And every class has a stun, so every class is cc? Nonsense.
No DR is hilarious. I can basically stunlock anyone into the ground on my GF if my daily is up.
Seriously, I'd pay for a single-player version of this game with some tunable options, just to get away from people demanding that other people's rules have to be changed. It's just lots of aggro for everyone involved. I like the *style* of some MMOs, including Cryptic's, but the substance keeps changing and rarely for the better.
If class X is more powerful than class Y, you buff Y.
Now class Y is more powerful than class Z, so you buff Z.
Now Z is more powerful than X, so you buff X.
repeat.
in a few months you have everyone running around 1 shotting everyone else.
Nobody likes to be nerfed, I understand, but you have to be realistic. The game has to stay within a set of parameters so there has to be an equal number of drops as rises. (nerfs and buffs)
Fighters will never be happy until they can steam roll everyone without dying once.
The rogue is suppose to be able to assassinate like it does. But you guys make it seem like rogues do it every single encounter with every member of your team. No, a rogue doesn't do dailies every encounter. An average rogue probably uses a daily 4 or 5 times a match which means 4 or 5 kills. That's it. Now some rogues might be able to daily more with gear helping out but an ungeared rogue probably struggles to pull off 4 dailies per match.
So quit crying, learn how to play.