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:/ Just buff the other classes?
empiren
Member Posts: 33
Tone down the ridiculous dailies of CW and TR and buff GF and GWF.(and cleric too I guess).
-Note: Just for pvp.
Please, stop crying about:
No DR.
-At 60 it hardly matters, if they used a damaging spell or a cc spell your still going to die 2-3v1. That is how it should be. This isn't a game where you should just run around in circles till your team shows up.
TR's killing you.
-Go figure you'd die by the single target non-cc class with the least amount of defense the most.
-Learn to kite.
Clerics healing
-At 60, not an issue.
-Note: Just for pvp.
Please, stop crying about:
No DR.
-At 60 it hardly matters, if they used a damaging spell or a cc spell your still going to die 2-3v1. That is how it should be. This isn't a game where you should just run around in circles till your team shows up.
TR's killing you.
-Go figure you'd die by the single target non-cc class with the least amount of defense the most.
-Learn to kite.
Clerics healing
-At 60, not an issue.
Post edited by empiren on
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Comments
Kinda the point of "buff other classes" but mmk. GF don't have it too bad with the knockdown/back though.
-Also lol @ the "if you don't play this op class, then you must play THIS op class."
Clerics which is my main are definitely not meant for DPS, even the best DPS build can barely scratch the DPS of a GWF DPS proper build. We in PvP are best for defending the points. Some people might argue bout AS being well OP in pvp if doubled. Yeah it aint against a proper player who knows what to do. The AS lets us do something in PvP since heals are not worth it here at very high levels, except when defending a point with another cleric.
Talking about the stamina meter or the dodge stat? Either way hardly. Outside of the fighters(who btw are tankier as a fact), the cleric and CW have equal to or the same dodges(I believe CW has 3 and cleric two, though I'm not sure how much of the bar clerics two takes up atm).
However the dodge stat i guess would be higher for the rogues as that is a class defining "mechanic" of sorts.(generally any dexterity class in any rpg ever). Its not exactly broken though, they still take the vast majority of attacks with little defense to make up for the ones they can't dodge.
So we can have everyone 1 shotting everyone? You will get a nerf bat, poort trickster rogue, fear it, expect it, its inevitable.
My second post was "i'm not a trickster rogue" in summary, please, read before posting.
Why ? They are DPS class, they always have been always should be.
Instead learn to let them waste their ability and minimise it then launch your attack. Counter properly and the rouge dies. If you however stand in one place and just try and out DPS them, yeah you loose.
I never talk about 1v1 when it comes to balance. And please, teach me how to counter something you can't see, but is quickly chopping on your life, then gets CC immune, somehow damage immune and ends up fight after 5 seconds with 30k crit.
I've got geared cleric and GWF. Cleric dies to them, GWF beats them. The issue here is classes that are overloaded with CC also have incredible survivability AND damage, therefore we don't have glass cannons here, we have battlecruisers who can be shot down, but most likely blow you away first.
@op
Then you're CW, thats top of the food chain of current PvP. These probably see some nerfs as well.
AS a cleric, if your facing rouges, use your divine daunting light. Seriously it well wipe most of their health in one hit leaving them easy pickings for say the DOT at will attack of ours. If you have trouble seeing them, its because you aren't paying attention to the battlefield. If you are you should see them coming then you can focus your screen on them and you then get to see their outline as they enter sneak. If however your trying to do DPS as most are you well loose again.
This is your first MMO you have ever played in your life and you absolutely lack any kind of common sense, right? Please, say yes for your own good.
ANy and all wizards or mages in any dungeon and dragons game has always been able to be min/maxxed to get a DPS version. I am yet to encounter any sub class of this type that cant.
Rouges are strong DPS due to their strong single use abilities, with high cooldown. The only ability of theirs that might need nerfing is daze and thats only to give it another second or 2 of cooldown.
Cleric are not immortality houses, seriously, go into any epic t2 dungeon with 1 cleric and play as you normally would. Watch as the cleric dies due to the mass aggro. They only become tanks, due to this broken aggro forcing them into the role of a tank. In case you havent worked it out clerics also can only heal themself for 60% of the normal heal. That is across the game, making them definitely not healbot on themself.
A tank in this game can win 1v1, but not up front. This game the GF or GWF (if you went for a tanking spec) needs to sue their abilites wisely, instead of mass attack.
CW aren't supposed to do damage? or at least not more than the "tank".
-Is this in relation to any other mmo? because CW are a dps class by default if they are not healer/tank, i.e. they should.
-Is it in relation to DnD? Because wizards(even control) are able to be min/maxed to be a dd. They should
Again, this is really just another "buff the other classes" issue. Even if you nerf CW or TR, you'll still be complaining about being CC'ed, you'll still die to stuff and then complain.
Just saying, the solution seems to be simple: Buff the fighters and clerics and be done.
That has been my standing as well.
So, TR and GWF are both DPS classes. But the TR far outdamages the GWF.
The CW is a Controller (that is NOT DPS). Which does far more damage than a GWF.
Why do people think this is okay? It would make since to me that the GWF could outlast a TR in a one on one fight, while the TR would do more damage. So another question... Why does every class have the same amount of HP? (At least for the most part).
And my main is a TR, and I have a lvl 40+ GWF and lvling a CW as well.
Its painful to level even, which should never be the case.(especially when endgame it is "below average")
Same with the GF and the Cleric.
Maybe i dont understand at all the DnD rules but in general in the mmorpg games the mage clases even the debuffers (or "controllers" like you call them here) hits hard, maybe not the best damage, but the magic classes ever stay in the top dps classes.
I dont know why u dont want to accept the CW is a dps, its so hard for u?
Yes they are "controllers" but they have the enough dmg, skills and feats to be considered a dps as well
And about the GWF well... they arent dps at all, they more like an hybrid, they fit perfectly in the role of subtank, they obviosly dont have the dps of a rouge, but they have better defense and survavility, yes they need a buff, but u must understand its an hybrid class not a dps (also the game calls them a "controller" too)
I am agree, just buff the fighters and cleric (maybe low they aggro generation and buff they damage or low they self heal debuff for the cleric)
Sorry for my bad english...
Well... There are so many things I coould say here, but I'm going to "Play Nice".
You don't understand. Conrol Wizards are CONTROLLERS. That is their roll. Read here Control Wizard Class Description Does this sound like a DPS? So you think that CONTROL Wizard is supposed to have Utility and One of the highest DPS in the game? If so please explain why because maybe the rest of us are missing something.
Great weapon fighters were billed as STRIKERS (where did you get your info?). The same as the Trickster Rogue. So, why do they not perform as strikers? Are you saying you think they are a "Hybrid" so they should do less damage? Even if so, why is it they do less damage than the Control Wizard who are a CONTROLLER (Cryptics definition, not mine)? STRIKER should do more damage than a CONTROLLER. End of Story.
Oh, and since Cryptic syas they are STRIKERS, that makes them DPS (STRIKER = DPS).
And I would recommend not comparing this game to other MMORPG's. Yes, they(casters) can hit hard. But depending on the game, melee can out damage them (EQ2 Assassins/Rangers/Monk; AION Assassin/Warrior and there are other examples). But the point is that this is NEVERWINTER, not those other games so judge them by the game they are in. In other words.. forget what you have learned.
You serious? GFs are pretty ridiculous in pvp and can pretty easily put out as much or more burst than CWs and rogues. I play both a CW and GF at level 60.
GWFs were never billed as strikers. Gwfs do deserve a buff but don't be making stupid statements about CWs not being a dps class. Strikers aren't the only dps in the game.
My bad, i was wrong about the GWF as a Controller, but here http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter even the wiki marks the GWF as DD and a Denfender, as I say and HYBRID why u cant accept the GWF simple its not a pure dps class?
The only pure dps in the game its the rouge, the CW ITS NOT A PURE CONTROLLER CLASS its a hybrid too, and hybrid of control and dps class, why if the CW its and hybrid too they outdamage the GWF? Simple they are the most shquishy class in the game.
Well sir for last answer me a question
If the CW its a pure controller class, then why almost anyone follow the oppresor path? it give the CW more control than the other 2 paths, why evryone choose renagade or thaumaturge?
Because they have enough control ability with those paths and they can contribuite better to the damage of the party
"CW need less damage they are a CONTROL class"
"The CC is too much, no DR"
So basically it boils down to "nerf the other guy, my class is bad." Why not just buff the "bad" classes(honestly i think GF is ok but that might be just me). That way in PVE you'll be a lot better, and in pvp it will be even.
Expecting a deep pvp balance is a little much, and I find this solution easier.
I neeed to say i am
Even if the game reach a total balance, the people will stay complain about al most evrything, if u check the class forum of every class u will find at least one thread of someone complaining about the class of the forum or of other class that is "OP and need a nerf for x reason" that happen in almost every game, and still happen for ever, the people will ever find something to complain
A GWF should never ever be able to beat a rouge 1v1 in a straight up fight where the GWF does not use their **** brain and counter properly. This is since a rouge is 1v1 class. GWF is 1vMany Mobs class.
Paying attention to actually what is going on around you in PvP rather than rushing to one point well really help. Especially against rouges since you can see them that way before their stealth takes effect, leaving you with that whispy shadow outline you see.
Rouges can be beaten, even the lowest DPS class the cleric can beat a good rouge, by knowing just what the rouges PvP tactics are and countering them. Play as a rouge, see the limitations of their abilities then go and apply those limitations to your main and how to exploit them for your advantage. Its what I did for my cleric, and let me tell you this, any rouge who comes up to try a 1v1 now more often than not dies now against me. This is without using AS either before people try claiming AS is the only reason (never mind how that can be broke in PvP).
Rouges are fine as they are, though in PvE they have a broken aggro in my opinion that is the complete opposite of the clerics, as in I can do 2/3's of the damage to a mob in one hit and they well ignore me still even out of stealth if im grouping.
Clerics yes the heal debuff is a pain, but really we can manage if they fix the aggro problem(Cleric is my main always has been).
GWF need some damage increase to their powers, since they dont cut through grouped mobs as they should do without some heavy late game speccing.
CW's they aren't to bad to beat the only real advantage is their three dash's away with a quick regen for it. Those saying their CC are to good, yeah they are meant to be. Though in PvP you often only see the two main CC skills of Entangle and the daily Singularity. The rest they try to slot in the high damage skills, which actually lower their CC potential. If you find yourself constantly CC'd in PvP either its a pure CC CW who does not have high damage output, or you have two of the common CW PvP make up on the other team.
GF's I'm yet to roll one up, however I plan to do so soon, so don't have any experience as to whats good and bad. Though fixing the clerics aggro, well see these being wanted more and more in PvE, you know since then the cleric isnt forced into a tanking role.
Clerics , if they shield stack just push them out of the area. but if the other team knows how to counter astral shield, the cleric is pretty much forced to go some form of offence , which gives them sort of a similar role to GFs , except weaker , forward bunker of sorts.
GWF - they probly need some buffing , weaker than all other classes.
CW - they eat clerics , GWFs and rogues who aren't awake . GFs give them problems. pretty balanced as well.
GFs are the most balanced imo. deadly if they gear/spec dps and know how to block the crucial stuff.
all classes are balanced , except for rogues and their smokebomb.
Every class can be DPS by your definition because every class can spec towards more damage. So that means that clerics should be able to top DPS charts if they don't slot any heals or defense buffs since that's what they gain instead of damage. However I'd bet money that even a fully specced/geared dps cleric couldn't touch the DPS of a TR or CW.
You're not understanding that everything should be balanced. If you gain control you lose damage, the idea here is that since you control the fight you need to use attrition(lower damage over a long period of time). Clerics trade damage for heals and buffs. GF should trade damage for survivability. GWF trade survivability for damage+AOE. TR's should trade survivability for their damage. TR currently don't give up survivability for their damage though and they also have control. Stealth is a HUGE buff to survivability and it should be something they need to give up some damage to get. Ideally you could spec a TR for no stealth and no control to get the most damage, obviously if you spec for stealth your damage drops in accordance with your survivability increase and same for control. CW should be the same, spec for control and your damage drops.
As for mages always hitting hard...no. A DPS specced mage could hit hard but so could a DPS specced warrior, rogue, priest, druid, etc. What you're seeing is that all those other classes get pigeonholed into healing or tanking so they can't DPS. Since most high end PvE content doesn't let you control the fight mages can't do anything else but spec into DPS. The reason you see them as a top DPS class is because the other classes are forced into not dpsing in order to fill the other roles.
Another problem in this game is that damage and control rules all. Survivability doesn't hold up to the insane TR and CW damage. Healing doesn't heal for nearly enough to cover the damage classes are putting out. That means that damage and control need toned down so that healing and survivability can be on par(IE equal trade offs). That ultimately means that TR's and CW's will be nerfed because it is the easiest most logical solution. Even if they buffed the damage of other classes that doesn't fix the issue of people dieing in seconds, it actually makes it worse. Unless they give clerics instant 20k heals healing will be useless as will the heavy armor. That means the classes with the least damage/control will be useless and that's still bad balance. That of course would mean defense would be buffed so people don't die as fast and that in turn would allow healing to do it's job.
Long story short is it is easier to just nerf damage/control than to spend a long period of time trying to balance other classes up to that level only to ultimately have the end result be equal to just nerfing damage and control.
All wizards and mages, note the word all. NO matter what subclass of this group, all of them have high damage spells and abilities. If you complain they do to much damage your complaining about the very game system this game is designed after. D&D.
Lets see how about we remove stealth from the class that is oh i don't know meant to be stealthy. Hmm amazing logic that, remove the ability that the class is built around.
You guys need to stop complaining that a class that does what it is meant to do is OP, when the other classes curently can't fill their roles.
Actually go and make a thread about how to make your class that you think can not fill its role, due to broken game mechanics currently in play, work for its role. Stop trying to break other classes and end up killing off any fun in the game
It's amazing how you contradict yourself in your argument, an then make statements you essentially made up and try to pass them off as fact.
You make the argument that because the class is called "devoted" instead of "battle", it can't spec dps. Then you say all wizards, even ones named "controller" instead of "battle", should do zomg dps. Why? Because you say so? Is there a rule anywhere that says all wizards do crazy dps? If we're really talking dnd, and lets go pnp for fun, a wizard would have to choose his or her spells ahea of time, choosing either control or damage.
The whole point is balance. If you have more control, you do less damage. If you have more damage, ou have less survivability. Think of it as sliders. As one goes up, another should go down. Even better, think of it like stat allocation. No one gets to put 99s in every slot. If a GF is supposed to be tanky, then the system needs allow the survivability of the class, you know, survive the damage of a dps class
Because the class of wizard is based upon offensive spells. they inheritly have damage as at thier disposal. That is the basic foundation of all wizards.
Where as a cleric, no matter what they are battle or devoted. No one ever thinks cleric and damage because the suffix of class Cleric, is of healing not damage. A Battle Cleric means a cleric that is more battle oriented.
Even if the class was named <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Wizard, its spells at its disposal is going to be offensive regardless.
he's not contradicting himself at all. But a Cleric especially a Devoted Cleric really wouldnt be anywhere near the top of damage charts, because no matter what, a Devoted Cleric is not an offensive unit, but a defensive support unit.
A devoted cleric is the type of cleric focused purely upon healing and buffing, not topping the DPS. Even the battle focused Battle Cleric in D&D can't (unless your fellow players are awful) out damage any class of magic user, or rouge subclass.
Even in my opinion the weakest of all magic users for direct damage the necromancer class, which really are just support, still can outdamage a cleric or any fighter.
A control Wizard has spells designed to cause damage while controlling. They do less damage than the rouges do, wheras a pure damage magic class would do more. This is reflected in this game.
Rouges, they have stealth, they are meant to be able to sneak about and go undetected. They have the ability to do huge sneak damage, they are meant to be able to achieve high single sneak attack damage. This is also reflected in the game.
The rouge and the CW are not broken right now. Proposals to nerf them well break the class and what they are meant to mirror.
DC is slightly broken but for the most part only in PvE.
GWF is very broken in relation to its mirror.
GF ive not played as yet, however their aggro control does appear to be broken.
Conversely, my TR now regularly gets knocked around by GFs and pummelled by GWFs (who were the only real beneficiaries of the dodge change). For people with non-US ping, the PvP game actually seems pretty balanced right now; if the low-ping game still needs balancing, I'd advocate making any nerfs in a way that alleviates the importance of ping in PvP by increasing skill casting times.