What level are they? Because Protect Caravan is lv4. (Me, when I want to put up a 6 hour project, I do Battle Undead. But that's a lv11.)
Does it matter what level they are? Regardless their levels, there's no question that they are way out of balance.
I give some of you guys credit, you're true optimists. If one task took 2 hours and gave 40 exp, and another task took 24 hours and gave 41 exp, you'd say it's a great benefit to anyone who can only play once a day.
Just because you can find a use for it doesn't mean it's balanced.
Does it matter what level they are? Regardless their levels, there's no question that they are way out of balance.
Level should be important - I would expect a higher level task (that you had to work your way up to, and that takes higher-level workers), to provide a better return rate in some way. More silver, more AD, higher quality items.....
I give some of you guys credit, you're true optimists. If one task took 2 hours and gave 40 exp, and another task took 24 hours and gave 41 exp, you'd say it's a great benefit to anyone who can only play once a day.
Again, it depends entirely on what else it gives you besides those 41xp. For a 24 hour task that only gives that XP? I'd bet it would have a bunch of other stuff (high silver, or AD, or items, or a combination).
Yes, if the only thing you're looking at is "maximum profession XP/hr", then certain missions will pop up as "best" and all the others will be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. But that's not what everyone is looking for.
The thing you guys seem to fail to realize is that the people who balanced crafting are likely the same people who balance the character classes. Nothing about this game comes even close to balanced, and crafting is a very obvious example.
Another thing to i found. I got a lvl 60 toon and leather working i started right from the beginning and i still am only lvl 13 lol it doesnt really keep up with the characters progress in anyway i found. So it ends up being kind of useless. And tailoring and leather working but i cant make a simple crappy bag of some kind.
For dam sakes i can make a dam bag in real life why cant this idiot in the game make one.
That just totally make me angry, one thing that really pisses me off.
Another thing to i found. I got a lvl 60 toon and leather working i started right from the beginning and i still am only lvl 13 lol it doesnt really keep up with the characters progress in anyway i found. So it ends up being kind of useless. And tailoring and leather working but i cant make a simple crappy bag of some kind.
Depends on how you do it. I capped crafting by the mid-30's.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Level should be important - I would expect a higher level task (that you had to work your way up to, and that takes higher-level workers), to provide a better return rate in some way. More silver, more AD, higher quality items.....
I believe they are both level 4. Task 1 was a "rare" task (which means rarely is anyone dumb enough to select it). Hell, the level 2 task that gives 1 silver 100 exp and 40 leadership is better than that straight-up.
Yes, the quicker tasks tend to offer more rewards on a per-hour basis, but time is not the only cost for tasks. There is also opportunity cost.
Obviously, getting 200 astral diamonds every 2 hours for 6 hours is better than getting 400 astral diamonds for 6 hours (protect caravan VS fighting undead). However, if you're only going to be able to set up one task for the next 8 hours (because you have to go to sleep, or work, or school, or you're kidnapped by underpants gnomes, or whatever), that's where opportunity cost comes into play. A single undead task will get you 400 diamonds, while a single caravan escort will get you only 200 diamonds, and since you can only set up one task over a long period of time, you're going to choose the one that gives the most reward for that single task, because the opportunity cost is the same for both.
There's also the fact that most tasks can only be run 3 times simultaneously. If you're already running 3 tasks, you can't run more of them, which leads you to choose the next most efficient task for whatever reward you're after. If you're focusing on gathering astral diamonds, you'll have your 3 caravan escorts running (which you'll re-assign every ~2 hours), and then use your remaining task slots for fighting undead or collecting taxes or whatever.
Now, I'm not saying that the crafting system couldn't use some fine-tuning. Some of the rewards are obviously incorrect, like combining three local maps to get a bill of sale instead of a district map. What I *am* saying is that all tasks are not going to be equal, because not all tasks are measured in the same way. Some tasks will be efficient as far as time goes. Other tasks will be efficient with materials, but not time. Still others may be more efficient with opportunity cost, regardless of time or materials. It's up to the player to decide which costs they can afford, which costs they cannot, and which currency they are willing to pay with: time, opportunity, materials, or some combination thereof.
I give some of you guys credit, you're true optimists. If one task took 2 hours and gave 40 exp, and another task took 24 hours and gave 41 exp, you'd say it's a great benefit to anyone who can only play once a day.
Just because you can find a use for it doesn't mean it's balanced.
Again, it depends entirely on what else it gives you besides those 41xp. For a 24 hour task that only gives that XP? I'd bet it would have a bunch of other stuff (high silver, or AD, or items, or a combination).
See? Eternal optimists. Amazing. (or raging blind fanboi, hard to tell these days).
And judging from what I've seen, no, you can't assume anything else would come with that task. But the argument you guys are making would say that this would be fine, since it's beneficial to people who don't have as much time.
That's the problem with having a forum discussion about balance - players say 'I can find a use for it, so it must be fine,' even though it is clearly a gimped task.
See? Eternal optimists. Amazing. (or raging blind fanboi, hard to tell these days).
And judging from what I've seen, no, you can't assume anything else would come with that task. But the argument you guys are making would say that this would be fine, since it's beneficial to people who don't have as much time.
That's the problem with having a forum discussion about balance - players say 'I can find a use for it, so it must be fine,' even though it is clearly a gimped task.
How is this different from what you're doing? All you're doing is saying "I can't find a use for it, so it must be broken," even though it's clearly fine.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
How is this different from what you're doing? All you're doing is saying "I can't find a use for it, so it must be broken," even though it's clearly fine.
No, I'm using simple math to point out inequities in their system (gaining 80 leadership in 4 hours vs gaining 80 leadership 300 exp and 2 silver is definitely an inequity, and that's not even one of the major ones.) Hell, they could make the 2 hour task take 4 hours, and I could make a legitimate argument that both tasks are equal.
No, I'm using simple math to point out inequities in their system (gaining 80 leadership in 4 hours vs gaining 80 leadership 300 exp and 2 silver is definitely an inequity, and that's not even one of the major ones.) Hell, they could make the 2 hour task take 4 hours, and I could make a legitimate argument that both tasks are equal.
So the people who have more time have a more efficient option. Other people have an option that is not as efficient, but it works better for their schedule.
No, I'm using simple math to point out inequities in their system (gaining 80 leadership in 4 hours vs gaining 80 leadership 300 exp and 2 silver is definitely an inequity, and that's not even one of the major ones.) Hell, they could make the 2 hour task take 4 hours, and I could make a legitimate argument that both tasks are equal.
Your simple math is the problem, because you start with the assumption that all hours are equal when they clearly aren't.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Your simple math is the problem, because you start with the assumption that all hours are equal when they clearly aren't.
Never a good idea to quote a post you clearly didn't even read. If you did read it, you'd realize my argument has nothing to do with time. In fact, I even said that if both tasks took the same amount of time, they would be very nearly equivalent.
Depends on how you do it. I capped crafting by the mid-30's.
I agree with this one. Like any other MMO, it depends how much time you put into it.
However you shouldn't be able to cap it this early in the game. There should be drops that you can only get at hier tier'd dungeons that allow you to progress, or something along these lines. No one should be capped 40% through the game
This is by far the most boring, poorly balanced, completely meaningless, and most un-fun crafting system that any MMORPG has ever come up with. Games in the past have been "click a button, wait 5 seconds, click another button." Which sucked. Rather than trying to make it more fun, PWE went the opposite direction - they made it so we hardly have to do anything at all.
I think the crafting in this game is worse than DDO. It also seems quite p2craft to me. I didn;t really read the whole thread but to those saying you shouldn't be capped 40% through the game you can blame the gateway for that.
I think peeps should only be able to craft when they are actually playing the game. This facebook rts malarkey where you can log in during work to hit the crafting buttons is lame.
I use martial training all the time until the higher xp tasks are unlocked because its set and forget, especially good for alts or when off to sleepy-byes.
what makes me think tasks are out of balance, is...
even considering the awards to time spent "almost" seem balanced (considering there is a benifit to not haveing to return to it sooner)
the Devs seem to have tottaly ignored that a higher level to start mission, is... higher level, and therefore should have a higher than X:y ratio when the lower level mission has an x:y ratio
the Devs also seem to not take into account that higher rank workers are needed... therefore, a larger "investment" has been put into starting the mission, and should again have a better x:y ratio.
___________
as is, if levels was removed tottaly from the crafting system, it would actualy start to make more sense. (the things that do take a higher rank asset do have a higher award on some things, and needing those higher ranked assets already places a requirement that involves time, (unless you "buy" assets from Zen, or from someone that bought a Zen asset
I use martial training all the time until the higher xp tasks are unlocked because its set and forget, especially good for alts or when off to sleepy-byes.
durring sleep I simply que a hire, or train, and if I'm not level 3 in it yet, I mail whatever personel I have to another toon and que a few "emergancy hires" it's a level 1 assignment but only shows up if you have no personel of that craft on that toon.
The game shouldn't be vanilla everything you pick is the same regardless, where it doesn't matter to such a degree that you could close your eyes and point, and get the same reward.
Martial training is for when I want XP, and Im not going to be near a computer for a longer time than it takes. Are you setting your alarm to remind you that 2 hours have passed, or are you just playing the game 24/7 without sleeping.
the 18h of a hire or train, is enough to sleep, wake up, go to work, return home.
not to mention you will need 16 rank 1, to make 4 rank 2, and you start needing the rank 2 by lvl 7
then it takes 64 rank 1, or 16 rank 2, to make 4 rank 3, and you will start needing the rank 3 by lvl 13
saying you have 5 slots open, to que a day, that's 80 days of ques, to get 4 rank 3 crafting people if you only que 1 of each craft a day (covering work AND sleep)
so it's less about what needs to be qued for "sleep/work" and more about what needs to be qued for the 1-8h we are NOT working/sleeping.
I personally think everyones taking this a little too seriously.
And besides the crafting is already generous in allowing you to craft whilst doing stuff.
Other games force you to stand still for hours whilst crafting.
it is nice that you can while doing other things, but crafting seems like a rushed afterthought here.
the awards are not any better higher levels up (compared to costs/time used)
and the gear on the crafts that craft gear comes so late that you never need it on the toon that leveled it's own crafting (unless you stop doing ANYTHING in game except crafting, in witch case you don't have the materials to craft with.
I do have my own "crafting Empire" going, but it's 1 toon with leather/cloth, a 2nd with mail/plate, and 8 toons (4 of each) suppporting the hires to feed the Emire workers. my main toon does her normal adventureing, and sends suplys to the other main crafter, but that 2nd crafter has already hit a block on a few of the blue assets (and green ones) that are used by all 4 profesions, because I'm hopeing the main could actualy use the lvl 60 to use gear before she gets better than it from drops/seals.
There are a lot of issues with the crafting system that needs to be fixed:
1. Crafting should go faster when you are actually training.
2. There should be crafting for weapons, ring and other wearable items.
3. All items except set items should be craftable if you have the appropriate level to craft them, rare items should not pop up only periodically.
4.Rare crafting should give better results than regular items, many times in Leadership, rare crafting take much longer than regular crafting but give lower results.
5. Upgrading your workers should be completely progressive, the way it is now you can only progress them to a certain level then you need to buy new workers the progress them up to the point where, like the Hero, has 50% speed.
6. They need to fix the crafting speed calculations.
7. If you have the resources to do 5 or 6 or more crafting of the same thing, you should be able to do it, currently you're limited to doing only 3 of one thing.
This is only a short list, I'm sure people can add a lot more to it.
If farmville could net me some Zen, I'd put my wife to work. As it is, she can farm 10 farms at a time, but ask her to do professions on a couple of alts every couple of hours and she complains about it being to hard. I wish more games had an opportunity for you to take it on the go, like Neverwinter's Gateway! I cannot tell you how many times I have been at work and wanted to get a small gaming fix in random times! 10 min break? Grabbing a coffee and setting jobs via gateway on my tablet. At lunch? Skirmish on my laptop and a cig in the park across the street? Um... yes please?
Comments
Does it matter what level they are? Regardless their levels, there's no question that they are way out of balance.
I give some of you guys credit, you're true optimists. If one task took 2 hours and gave 40 exp, and another task took 24 hours and gave 41 exp, you'd say it's a great benefit to anyone who can only play once a day.
Just because you can find a use for it doesn't mean it's balanced.
Level should be important - I would expect a higher level task (that you had to work your way up to, and that takes higher-level workers), to provide a better return rate in some way. More silver, more AD, higher quality items.....
Again, it depends entirely on what else it gives you besides those 41xp. For a 24 hour task that only gives that XP? I'd bet it would have a bunch of other stuff (high silver, or AD, or items, or a combination).
Yes, if the only thing you're looking at is "maximum profession XP/hr", then certain missions will pop up as "best" and all the others will be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. But that's not what everyone is looking for.
Another thing to i found. I got a lvl 60 toon and leather working i started right from the beginning and i still am only lvl 13 lol it doesnt really keep up with the characters progress in anyway i found. So it ends up being kind of useless. And tailoring and leather working but i cant make a simple crappy bag of some kind.
For dam sakes i can make a dam bag in real life why cant this idiot in the game make one.
That just totally make me angry, one thing that really pisses me off.
Depends on how you do it. I capped crafting by the mid-30's.
Because bags are in the zen store, so why would they let people just crank them out like you can in WoW?
Obviously, getting 200 astral diamonds every 2 hours for 6 hours is better than getting 400 astral diamonds for 6 hours (protect caravan VS fighting undead). However, if you're only going to be able to set up one task for the next 8 hours (because you have to go to sleep, or work, or school, or you're kidnapped by underpants gnomes, or whatever), that's where opportunity cost comes into play. A single undead task will get you 400 diamonds, while a single caravan escort will get you only 200 diamonds, and since you can only set up one task over a long period of time, you're going to choose the one that gives the most reward for that single task, because the opportunity cost is the same for both.
There's also the fact that most tasks can only be run 3 times simultaneously. If you're already running 3 tasks, you can't run more of them, which leads you to choose the next most efficient task for whatever reward you're after. If you're focusing on gathering astral diamonds, you'll have your 3 caravan escorts running (which you'll re-assign every ~2 hours), and then use your remaining task slots for fighting undead or collecting taxes or whatever.
Now, I'm not saying that the crafting system couldn't use some fine-tuning. Some of the rewards are obviously incorrect, like combining three local maps to get a bill of sale instead of a district map. What I *am* saying is that all tasks are not going to be equal, because not all tasks are measured in the same way. Some tasks will be efficient as far as time goes. Other tasks will be efficient with materials, but not time. Still others may be more efficient with opportunity cost, regardless of time or materials. It's up to the player to decide which costs they can afford, which costs they cannot, and which currency they are willing to pay with: time, opportunity, materials, or some combination thereof.
And judging from what I've seen, no, you can't assume anything else would come with that task. But the argument you guys are making would say that this would be fine, since it's beneficial to people who don't have as much time.
That's the problem with having a forum discussion about balance - players say 'I can find a use for it, so it must be fine,' even though it is clearly a gimped task.
Ok, but by that same arguement, just because something isn't balanced doesn't mean there's anythng wrong with it.
Class guardian extends fighter{ var threat = 0; var dps = 5; var usefulnessInEndgame = 0; function main(){ if(!dead){ die(); } } }How is this different from what you're doing? All you're doing is saying "I can't find a use for it, so it must be broken," even though it's clearly fine.
So the people who have more time have a more efficient option. Other people have an option that is not as efficient, but it works better for their schedule.
Your simple math is the problem, because you start with the assumption that all hours are equal when they clearly aren't.
I agree with this one. Like any other MMO, it depends how much time you put into it.
However you shouldn't be able to cap it this early in the game. There should be drops that you can only get at hier tier'd dungeons that allow you to progress, or something along these lines. No one should be capped 40% through the game
Because 300xp and 2 silver isn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
I think peeps should only be able to craft when they are actually playing the game. This facebook rts malarkey where you can log in during work to hit the crafting buttons is lame.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
even considering the awards to time spent "almost" seem balanced (considering there is a benifit to not haveing to return to it sooner)
the Devs seem to have tottaly ignored that a higher level to start mission, is... higher level, and therefore should have a higher than X:y ratio when the lower level mission has an x:y ratio
the Devs also seem to not take into account that higher rank workers are needed... therefore, a larger "investment" has been put into starting the mission, and should again have a better x:y ratio.
___________
as is, if levels was removed tottaly from the crafting system, it would actualy start to make more sense. (the things that do take a higher rank asset do have a higher award on some things, and needing those higher ranked assets already places a requirement that involves time, (unless you "buy" assets from Zen, or from someone that bought a Zen asset
durring sleep I simply que a hire, or train, and if I'm not level 3 in it yet, I mail whatever personel I have to another toon and que a few "emergancy hires" it's a level 1 assignment but only shows up if you have no personel of that craft on that toon.
Martial training is for when I want XP, and Im not going to be near a computer for a longer time than it takes. Are you setting your alarm to remind you that 2 hours have passed, or are you just playing the game 24/7 without sleeping.
not to mention you will need 16 rank 1, to make 4 rank 2, and you start needing the rank 2 by lvl 7
then it takes 64 rank 1, or 16 rank 2, to make 4 rank 3, and you will start needing the rank 3 by lvl 13
saying you have 5 slots open, to que a day, that's 80 days of ques, to get 4 rank 3 crafting people if you only que 1 of each craft a day (covering work AND sleep)
so it's less about what needs to be qued for "sleep/work" and more about what needs to be qued for the 1-8h we are NOT working/sleeping.
And besides the crafting is already generous in allowing you to craft whilst doing stuff.
Other games force you to stand still for hours whilst crafting.
it is nice that you can while doing other things, but crafting seems like a rushed afterthought here.
the awards are not any better higher levels up (compared to costs/time used)
and the gear on the crafts that craft gear comes so late that you never need it on the toon that leveled it's own crafting (unless you stop doing ANYTHING in game except crafting, in witch case you don't have the materials to craft with.
I do have my own "crafting Empire" going, but it's 1 toon with leather/cloth, a 2nd with mail/plate, and 8 toons (4 of each) suppporting the hires to feed the Emire workers. my main toon does her normal adventureing, and sends suplys to the other main crafter, but that 2nd crafter has already hit a block on a few of the blue assets (and green ones) that are used by all 4 profesions, because I'm hopeing the main could actualy use the lvl 60 to use gear before she gets better than it from drops/seals.
1. Crafting should go faster when you are actually training.
2. There should be crafting for weapons, ring and other wearable items.
3. All items except set items should be craftable if you have the appropriate level to craft them, rare items should not pop up only periodically.
4.Rare crafting should give better results than regular items, many times in Leadership, rare crafting take much longer than regular crafting but give lower results.
5. Upgrading your workers should be completely progressive, the way it is now you can only progress them to a certain level then you need to buy new workers the progress them up to the point where, like the Hero, has 50% speed.
6. They need to fix the crafting speed calculations.
7. If you have the resources to do 5 or 6 or more crafting of the same thing, you should be able to do it, currently you're limited to doing only 3 of one thing.
This is only a short list, I'm sure people can add a lot more to it.
If farmville could net me some Zen, I'd put my wife to work. As it is, she can farm 10 farms at a time, but ask her to do professions on a couple of alts every couple of hours and she complains about it being to hard. I wish more games had an opportunity for you to take it on the go, like Neverwinter's Gateway! I cannot tell you how many times I have been at work and wanted to get a small gaming fix in random times! 10 min break? Grabbing a coffee and setting jobs via gateway on my tablet. At lunch? Skirmish on my laptop and a cig in the park across the street? Um... yes please?