Plague Fire or Vorpal

thedeadstar

What do guys prefer?

Vorpal: +25% crit severity
Plague Fire: +5.5% weap Dmg as Fire, 1.8% weap dmg dot (3 stacks), 10% defense mitigation (which only works for the first stack of it per person)

Not completly sure yet which might be better while tending strongly to Plague Fire, which I currently use.
Main Problem is: how is the 5.5% "Weapon Dmg as Fire Dmg" calculated in the Skills? Well, some basic calculation:

non crit of 10.000
Crit Severity 80% (orc) + Stealth (+25%) + DM (15%) = 120%

Vorpal: 24.500
PF: 22.000 * 1,1 = 23.100

with wicked reminder @max stack (20%, plague fire works as multiplier for all player mitigation skills, which are additive)

vorpal: 24.500 * 1,2 = 29.400
PF: 22.000 * 1,2 * 1,1 = 29.040

So basically the more player wise mitigation effects are on the boss, the more PF will win in DMG.
Addionally it will also increase all non crits and I completly ignored the Weap Dmg effect and DoT.
If you got 2 active attacking ppl it will be a 1,2 multiplier to all player wise mitigation effects because plague fire stacks with each other.

So is there any Reason why people would prefer Vorpal over Plague Fire? Did I missed something?
Except for PvP ofc, there Vorpal is most likely more effective.

Old stuff, new thoughs below. Enchants are not bound right? Unbinding it + selling tho..

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Edit due to Patch Notes

Plague Fire: The Defense debuff portion of the enchantment's proc no longer stacks when applied by multiple players.
Plague Fire: The Defense debuff now properly stacks to 3.
Resistance, but instead properly reduces the Defense stat. The debuff is less powerful as a result.

45% Defense reduction instead of 15% overall mitigation. Can't be stacked with other PF debuffs.
Probably not worth anymore - guess it's working in addition to Armor Penetration now.
24% Mitigation is max in PvE, thats equal to sth like(if working like it does for players) 1,8k Defense. Cutting 45% off is ~1k Def and so ~15% mitigation -> garbage.

fimconte

Greater Plague Fire is 15% per stack.

Greater Vorpal is +38% crit severity.

Greater Plague Fire is vastly superior since it buffs the damage of the entire Party.

For PVP, Greater Vorpal might be the better choice.

But PVE, Plague Fire is king.

eros1986

fimconte wrote: »

Greater Plague Fire is 15% per stack.

Greater Vorpal is +38% crit severity.

Greater Plague Fire is vastly superior since it buffs the damage of the entire Party.

For PVP, Greater Vorpal might be the better choice.

But PVE, Plague Fire is king.

But wont be better to have a GWF or a CW using it? (plaguefire)
Especially a GWF who can further lower the damage reduction by 45% if properly specced. CW can too but they are too busy pushing stuff off cliff xD

If you have a team mate with plaguefire and a rogue with vorpal, you will end up doing more damage than both party members having plaguefire on right?

thedeadstar

grabbing up sth i posted already earlier in another thread.
First:
Plague Fire only applys 1x defense mitigation even it stacks to 3 but however it counts for every person using plague fire and is attacking. GWF reduction is 3x 5% and not 3x 15%, tested that.

So lets say you do a 10k non crit on a boss it would be like

80+15+25 crit severity as base, 120% total
ignoring dmg bonus PF gives in general

Vorpal, GWF auto attack (for plague fire), CW auto attack (plague fire):
10.000 * 2,45 * 1,2 = 29400
PF, GWF auto attack (for PF), CW auto attack (PF):
10000 * 2,2 * 1,3 = 28600

Vorpal+5xWicked Reminder, GWF auto attack (for PF), CW auto attack (PF):
10000 * 2,45 * 1,2 * 1,2 = 35280
PF+5xWicked Reminder, GWF auto attack (for PF), CW auto attack (PF):
10000 * 2,2 * 1,2 * 1,3 = 34320

Vorpal+5xWicked Reminder, GWF debuff(15%), CW debuff(65%):
10000 * 2,45 * 2 * 1,2 = 58800
PF5xWicked Reminder, GWF debuff(15%), CW debuff(65%):
10000 * 2,2 * 2 * 1,3 = 57200

So your crits stays almost the same nevermind if you use vorpal or PF, but for your team PF is better. And as said above, I didn't calculated the weapon dmg bonus of PF in it and the dot, which will result in higher dmg then vorpal. Addionally it also boosts all non crits which makes it superior to vorpal.

Vorpal is only interesting for PvP first hits e.g. leashing blade opener out of stealth, PF stack doesn't work on first hit dmg though.
So just what fimconte already said and I though: for PvE Plague Fire is the best choice.
Still, all the guides I see here aim for Vorpal for some reason even though they are mainly for PvE DPS Specs.
Just wanted to make that a bit clearer hear with this thread and needed a confirmation (didn't calculated that precise when I opened the thread)

warpet

vorpal should be a lot better u can easy have 40-50% crtic chance here and def debuffs works in pvp only how much i know

axer128

I think Perfect vorpal may compete with greater plague fire, on a high crit build. (and plague maxes at greater)

But yea greater doesn't match greater plague.

Plus we're talking about a 20+ mil enchant vs a 1.5mil one.

solsol1337

@thedeadstar I do not understand what these multipliers you are using are supposed to mean.

Ex "Vorpal, GWF auto attack (for plague fire), CW auto attack (plague fire):
10.000 * 2,45 * 1,2 = 29400"

Vorpal is 25% crit severity, Plague fire is 10% base damage, and you used a 120% crit severity base. I am not sure what you were trying to accomplish, but the way the game actually calculates damage is more like this:

(Base * Bonus damage) + (Base * Bonus Damage * Crit Severity) .

Using greater enchants though, the comparison essentially comes down to 15% party dps buff (assuming your party all has ArP cap) or 38% crit severity for yourself. If you're talking aoe damage, then plague fire wins hands down. If you're talking boss damage, then vorpal comes out ahead (since the rogue's bleed will probably be doing well above half the total dps to the boss). Vorpal is a flat 38% buff to a critting bleed that is doing > 50% of the boss damage. Plague fire then is a 15% buff to 100% of the damage, which still values it at 30% total damage buff at best. This also is not taking into account that Crit Severity directly inflates overrun critical damage (which is how people get those 30k-60k bleeds), whereas plague fire adds a flat amount that does not recursively stack.

So this debate depends on your purpose. If you want to kill aoe faster, take plague fire. If you want a boss to die faster, take vorpal. Also several of the assumptions we made to inflate the value of plague fire are simply not true in most cases. Most CW are probably stacking recovery, since their dps is not all that important, and their CC is.

Also, I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure you all are confused about how the DoT is calculated. It has nothing at all to do with the damage your skills do. It is calculated off your weapon damage in the character sheet. That tiny number that is probably under 1000 (maybe more for GWF). So the dot is actually doing a really small amount of damage unless you are mass aoeing, in which case it is still a very small portion of the total damage you are dealing. For example, when I was testing tenebrous enchants, they were averaging about 1% of my overall dps. They were always outperforming the dps portion of plague fire by a significant margin.

cichard

basically what we do is the GWF and the CW are running plague to debuff adds and boss i run vorpal since im the dps

eros1986

cichard wrote: »

basically what we do is the GWF and the CW are running plague to debuff adds and boss i run vorpal since im the dps

yeah this is what I was thinking

thedeadstar

solsol1337 wrote: »

@thedeadstar I do not understand what these multipliers you are using are supposed to mean.

Ex "Vorpal, GWF auto attack (for plague fire), CW auto attack (plague fire):
10.000 * 2,45 * 1,2 = 29400"

Vorpal is 25% crit severity, Plague fire is 10% base damage, and you used a 120% crit severity base. I am not sure what you were trying to accomplish, but the way the game actually calculates damage is more like this:

(Base * Bonus damage) + (Base * Bonus Damage * Crit Severity) .

Tested it a while 2 days ago with a GWF and CW of my guild how mitigation and esp Plague Fire works. After discovering it myself, this little addon comfirmed it.
As said, I do not exactly know how the 5.5% of a normal Plague Fire (more for the greater ofc) will be calculated, however that isn't that much the point.
The Formula that im using for crits is:

Base Dmg * (1 + Crit Severity) * (sum of all player def. mitigation debuffs) * (sum of all Plague Fire debuffs)

Those last to factors are tested. Player mitigation debuff will be in sum multiplied with the sum of Plague Fire debuff

e.g.

5 Stack Wicked Reminder is 20%, if using solo while having PF on, its increased to -32% mitigation (while vorpal at same quality adds 25% crit severity, resulting in a 10k non crit will be 29.4k vorpal vs. 29k PF)

5x WR (20%) and 3 stacks of that GWF (15%) while both having PF, will be a -62% mitigation

5x WR, 3 Stacks by GWF, Ray/Ice debuff of CW (50% and 15%) and 3x PF will result in -160% mitigation (thats -60% extra for having PF on 3 ppl that attack on that moment).

Due to the fact that mitigation influences bleed even after 10 stacks, it works fine and do not have to be timed to the moment you apply that stack. Addionally you can't always crit your 10th stacks while Lurker but still you got your 1.1 multiplier which you didn't got with vorpal.

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Hm, Perfect vorpal vs. greater PF, ok yep, there vorpal could be slightly in advantage if it comes to your solo dmg. Still it might be a close match if there is more than 1 attacker on the boss.

solsol1337

I need to get a plague fire and test that. I have Faerie fire (which is also a defense debuff like plague fire) and it isn't multiplicative, nor would anything I have seen so far from the game imply that plague fire should be. From all testing I have seen, a defense and damage reduction debuff reduce the same pool of mitigation in the calculation, and are additive.

Edit: I tested this.

Plague fire + Faerie fire = 13% exactly as you would expect.

Plague fire + Faerie fire + WRx5 = 35.6%.

35.6%-13%-20% = 2.6% = 13%*20%.

So it does appear that defense debuffs inflate damage reduction debuffs. So it is more correct to change:

Base Dmg * (1 + Crit Severity) * (sum of all player def. mitigation debuffs) * (sum of all Plague Fire debuffs)

to

Base Dmg * (1 + Crit Severity) * (sum of all damage reduction debuffs) * (sum of all defense reduction debuffs)

purpleorbes

Well, Im using the Plague Fire Enchantment (not the lesser) and I now have a Vorpal Enchantment (not the lesser) So, has anyone found out wich one is better for the dungeons yet?? If so please, please let me know.
So, Solso1337, What one would you go with??
Thanks

solsol1337

I use a 25% vorpal. I prefer the boss damage to the better aoe damage. AoE stuff dies fast enough either way. And it isnt as if vorpal is that far behind anyway.

purpleorbes

Thanks for your input.

counterintel

I read multiple characters using plaguefire actually stack together (the defense debuff). Not sure if accurate, but if so it just blows the pants off Vorpal for anyone who cares about group success more than breaking crit records on trash for the lulz.

thedeadstar

As mentioned in my start post, they do stack. Tested it with 2x lesser which resulted in a 1.1 multiplier, so it should work for normal/greater as well

solsol1337

Whether they stack with others or not really doesn't add any value to them. Having 2 of them doesn't increase the bonus from each of them.

w0nder1337

Does someone test other enchants ?
I heard most of them stacks... even if tooltip doesnt say it.
Like greater bilethorn istead of 6% powers dmg + 11% weap dmg as posion for 4 sec, does 44% weap dmg as poison , becaue it stacks 4 times.
I didn't test it, i just speak with a cw claiming it, same thing for lightning one, claim it stacks.

syllvv

solsol1337 wrote: »

I use a 25% vorpal. I prefer the boss damage to the better aoe damage. AoE stuff dies fast enough either way. And it isnt as if vorpal is that far behind anyway.

Hi is the 25% vorpal working? thnx in advance.

thedeadstar

Updated due to recent Patch Notes. Guess Vorpal all the way now without discussion-.- **** it.