The whole "if you roll Need, it binds" concept won't really help, because....
...pondscum like this will just Need on it anyway, because they can sell it for some gold.
The correct solution is to not allow people to Need on items that are locked to other classes.
The correct solution allows one class to need and sell the items even if they don't use them. Your solution doesn't solve the problem either, it just makes it easier for the class specific items to be resold by that class.
Okay, fine, there will be people who will always roll need, but at least put a limitation on class specific items. If there is a trickster rogue and a dagger drops, do not let a gwf need on it. This would be a good starting point..
I don't dissagree but, as long as people are able to do it they will continue to abuse it. Better to send in some suggestions to change it rather then posting on the General forums about it.
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erenarMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Then assign it a nil gold value, I mean i pass on greens anyway cos i won't ID them... and I make enough to cover potion costs and then some. Gold drops from mobs more than makes up for any consumable costs.
"Over the course of my many years I have learned one thing: I don't know anything, I only think I do. And I'm not even sure about that." -- Rasgard the Wise
Let's just simplify loot. I mean, really, really simplify it.
Get rid of BOE and BOP. Seriously. What good does either mechanic really serve? Getting rid of the BOx mechanic will allow loot to be freely traded or sold on the market. It might even have a positive impact on market prices.
Auto-assign loot to each party member. Have it go into your inventory (and overflow bag) automatically whenever a chest is opened or a boss is looted. This gets rid of need/greed and issues where there's a cluster of people jockeying for position around the chest/corpse.
When assigning loot to a player, prefer loot appropriate to the character class. This should be fairly self-explanatory.
I mean, really. You want to get rid of ninja-looting? Get to the heart of the problem. Modifying the need/greed system is only strapping a bandaid on the problem: You will still have to stop, examine the gear and decide how to roll for it, it will still disrupt the flow of combat, it will still create strife and contention amongst party members. People will still be kicked because gear will still be "ninja looted" by players who won't understand the rules (frequently because they are new to the game and don't understand how it's played).
So change the core mechanic. Step away from a system that has never really worked well in any MMO, and come up with something new. Simply take away the ability to ninja loot, and be done with it.
"Over the course of my many years I have learned one thing: I don't know anything, I only think I do. And I'm not even sure about that." -- Rasgard the Wise
I see you explaining to us all what “need” and “greed” means but what’s coming out “Hey, ninjas, come with me and steal lots of stuff.”
Be sure to roll need on all and remind your whole party to do that same. In the current loot system the greed button is just another pass button. This may change in the future but for right now this is what you have to work with.
Don’t conflate fair with efficient though. Fair means everyone gets the same chance. Efficient means everyone gets what they need as quickly as possible. Rolling need on all is not efficient. You will end up with other people’s things and they will end up with yours. Not efficient.
But if you do not roll need then you don’t have a chance at all to get the item. Ninja’s always win when you hit greed. So efficiency can only get worse. Even though needing on all is not very efficient, it is as efficient as it can be while giving you a chance to win.
You also have to face the fact that with the current loot system, you may be forced to buy your equipment on the AH. And you will need AD for that. Those items that aren’t your class will help toward that goal but only if you have them to sell.
And finally, rolling need on all doesn’t mean you have to be scummy about it. You can give away or trade anything you want. No one is making you keep it. If you win someone else’s things you can be their hero. Who knows, you might even start a trend.
Until something is done about the loot system, roll need on all and remind your party to do the same.
Let's just simplify loot. I mean, really, really simplify it.
Get rid of BOE and BOP. Seriously. What good does either mechanic really serve? Getting rid of the BOx mechanic will allow loot to be freely traded or sold on the market. It might even have a positive impact on market prices.
Auto-assign loot to each party member. Have it go into your inventory (and overflow bag) automatically whenever a chest is opened or a boss is looted. This gets rid of need/greed and issues where there's a cluster of people jockeying for position around the chest/corpse.
When assigning loot to a player, prefer loot appropriate to the character class. This should be fairly self-explanatory.
I mean, really. You want to get rid of ninja-looting? Get to the heart of the problem. Modifying the need/greed system is only strapping a bandaid on the problem: You will still have to stop, examine the gear and decide how to roll for it, it will still disrupt the flow of combat, it will still create strife and contention amongst party members. People will still be kicked because gear will still be "ninja looted" by players who won't understand the rules (frequently because they are new to the game and don't understand how it's played).
So change the core mechanic. Step away from a system that has never really worked well in any MMO, and come up with something new. Simply take away the ability to ninja loot, and be done with it.
Seriously this! 1000 times this. NGP is a broken relic. Every fix has its own issues. We found something new to the same tired old tab targeting combat system. Why are so many willing to then continue to cling to other outdated systems. Replace it already!
better rolling system and BoP would fix this problem and the pay to win problem.
being able to buy best in slot gear from AH is laughable.
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wildswannMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
The Need button should only be available if the item is your class (and in that scenario making class items BOP would make sense)- apart from that Greed and Pass are all we need
I read your post, and sorry I used neck (a class specific item) as an example...feel free to use BP instead. Point remains the same. Tell me which of the 15 unknown items you can equip as an upgrade before ID'ing them. You can't name one, therefore you don't actually know that you "need" it. You just hope you can use it, which is fine, but not really the same as needing it.
Not butt hurt actually, even after you debased yourself with your childish insults. I am actually quite entertained by it all.
In my original post, I said that non-class specific items were free-for-all. That would include neck, waist, rings, runes, enchants, whatever else I may be missing. You completely ignored that and focused on the first half of my first sentence, that's why I assumed you were either butt-hurt that I called you on that, or perhaps did not have enough ability to concentrate to continue reading the remainder of the post. In which case I suppose I ought to actually apologize, ADHD isn't really funny.
The point remains that the OP (and myself) were speaking about class-specific items only, therefore the other items are mute. However, even as a DC, I really don't know that "Holy Symbol A" is an upgrade for me until I ID it, but I can be fairly certain that you, the GWF cannot equip it, so it's certainly not an upgrade for you.
Personally I'd like to see the system just auto-roll on anything green (and presumably requires ID) and just assigns it like potions and such, with nobody else even seeing it. Or maybe seeing it in the chat window or loot alert? The same should go for runes and enchants and such. But blue drops, random ones and especially boss drops should only be needed by someone to whom it is actually a potential upgrade. I'm talking gear-wise here, the idea that "I need AD and/or gold" is not the intent, nor is it in the spirit of the Need/Greed roll system.
My main rant/point is in regards to normal PUG looting of greens/blues/runes...only truly fair practice, with no favoritism, or entitlement is 100% all roll need. Some will say all should roll greed, but we're humans, and one person will always roll need to screw over the rest.
Maybe the option of instant PvP could solve this little problem, if one person selects need against the defined agreement? Learning through pain is a good lecturing method. At last, we are all humans, and the frustration has to go somewhere.
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k3m3d0Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
And if Class Specific Need been rolled before Cross Class Need?
You could legit ninja your own class itens.
I guess do less trouble than only restrict the sell after.
That's called greed, you shouldn't be needing on the second set. You don't need it, you already HAVE it. Just because it's your class item doesn't mean you "need" it, if it's not an upgrade or you already have it then you don't NEED it. Logic.
That's stupid, I might like the second item better than the first. If it is for my class, I should be able to roll need and sort it out afterwards. If it is not for my class, I should roll greed or pass on it.
If need is disabled for all non-class items it solves the problems.
It binds on pick up. Because if you need it, you'll be using it. If you're going to sell it- that's called greed.
You could also of course black out the 'need' option for classes that can't even use the item, but that would make too much sense.
Simple solution to one of the key problems that has ruined the economy, and makes everyone hate grouping. (except ninjas, exploiters and gold farmers, who love it)
well, dont like the roll go find teammate for party dungeon nor skirmish, queue is just random at everything. choosing queue rather then find decent teammate means you are gambling all the way in the area, including item. there is no bind on pickup, because if that happen AH is pointless trading is pointless, hell, why even you playing MMO anyway? beside, there is no limit how many time you can queue a dungeon nor skirmish, the leveling is already easy on the game dont be lazy, keep up with the item roll
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mego9500Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited May 2013
I agree. Need means needs, simple as that. I even pass on Epics, whether it be T1 or T2 if it isn't for me for the sole reason that its more or less a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-move to mash need on those items. I've literally had to re-do dungeons multiple times because people will all hit need on items that aren't even for them.
The only time I hit anything but Need (items for me), or Pass (It's not for me) is when it is a good CW items and our CW passes on it because I would be gathering those for a friend of mine.
I would totally back this idea.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Personally I'd like to see the system just auto-roll on anything green (and presumably requires ID) and just assigns it like potions and such, with nobody else even seeing it. Or maybe seeing it in the chat window or loot alert? The same should go for runes and enchants and such. But blue drops, random ones and especially boss drops should only be needed by someone to whom it is actually a potential upgrade. I'm talking gear-wise here, the idea that "I need AD and/or gold" is not the intent, nor is it in the spirit of the Need/Greed roll system.
Personally I'd like to see a much better system too; I'm not some loot ***** monster, but this system is broken, and unfortunately the normal need/greed just makes it worse. Hell I give away epic loot in other games, so I'm probably too generous. Bottom line for me; is the system fair, and this one isn't (I think we agree). I don't see Cryptic changing the system, because this is a money maker for them, requiring ID scrolls. The lack of transparency caused by the need for ID scrolls on loot is where what can be a very fair system, (Need vs Greed), turns into an unfair system, with the only fair option being for all players to click need. It sucks, yeah I agree, but it's fair, because it creates a level playing field, and relies on the systems random number generator to decide outcomes, rather than stacking the deck based on usability. As far as purples go, it depends on the situation. I inspect people I group with in games, so if an item drops, I pretty much know if it's an upgrade for anyone. If it's an upgrade I pass, but it still wouldn't be unfair of me to roll given the games current state. If I know that CW already has the same or better item, I'll need for sure, because it's not an upgrade.
Oh, and no, I'm not slow, nor do I suffer from ADHD, I'm just old...
well, dont like the roll go find teammate for party dungeon nor skirmish, queue is just random at everything. choosing queue rather then find decent teammate means you are gambling all the way in the area, including item. there is no bind on pickup, because if that happen AH is pointless trading is pointless, hell, why even you playing MMO anyway? beside, there is no limit how many time you can queue a dungeon nor skirmish, the leveling is already easy on the game dont be lazy, keep up with the item roll
Not true, you outlevel skirmishes, and fairly quickly:(.
Not true, you outlevel skirmishes, and fairly quickly:(.
true, but you can go back if you found teammate on that level. you out level the skirmish/dungeon, I believe most people love to get you in party. beside you outlevel the dungeon/skirmish fast, why not after something above you rather something below you right, you came into dungeon and skirsmish with party, not alone.
When I see people complain about this issue, all I read in every post is that my character is more important than yours. Everything is BoE, everyone needs AD. You can buy whatever gear you need with AD (and more than gear ie: respecs), is this that hard to understand?
When I see people complain about this issue, all I read in every post is that my character is more important than yours. Everything is BoE, everyone needs AD. You can buy whatever gear you need with AD (and more than gear ie: respecs), is this that hard to understand?
How hard is it to understand that "I want money" = greed?
So the man who hasn't eaten for a week that wants 1 dollar to buy a box of kraft dinner is greedy yeah?
Right, because you'll die of starvation if you don't get that epic that's not for your class, and a useful upgrade for the person of said class in your party.
People like you ruin MMO communities.
Right, because you'll die of starvation if you don't get that epic that's not for your class, and a useful upgrade for the person of said class in your party.
People like you ruin MMO communities.
That's funny because I only roll need when other people are doing the same. It really annoys me when people roll greed on stuff though, your just asking for the shady dude in teh party to ninja the first purple that drops.
Will you die of starvation if you don't get that gear upgrade you need, because someone rolled on something not for their class?
You completely missed the point btw, I was pointing out that wanting money not always = greed.
Dude that rolls need on an item upgrade "needs" it to progress his character.
Dude that rolls on something not for his class to trade/sell "needs" it to progress his character.
Thus the obvious solution is to need every BoE that drops (which is everything).
It's not people like me that ruin MMO communities. It's the poor logic of individuals within the community that fail to understand anything besides what is typed on the buttons you press to roll for drops.
That's funny because I only roll need when other people are doing the same. It really annoys me when people roll greed on stuff though, your just asking for the shady dude in teh party to ninja the first purple that drops.
Will you die of starvation if you don't get that gear upgrade you need, because someone rolled on something not for their class?
You completely missed the point btw, I was pointing out that wanting money not always = greed.
Dude that rolls need on an item upgrade "needs" it to progress his character.
Dude that rolls on something not for his class to trade/sell "needs" it to progress his character.
Thus the obvious solution is to need every BoE that drops (which is everything).
It's not people like me that ruin MMO communities. It's the poor logic of individuals within the community that fail to understand anything besides what is typed on the buttons you press to roll for drops.
"Other people are jerks so I should be too" isn't a very strong argument. And again, people don't seem to understand the difference between "need" and "want". It's a much wider social problem outside the scope of this thread.
I would really like to the Bind on Pickup on dungeon gear, and maybe some of the crafting gear aswell, as things are right now, you can buy the best gear in the game on the AH, but with BoP that would stop and having the top notch gear would signal that you earned it, not just bought it
Comments
The correct solution allows one class to need and sell the items even if they don't use them. Your solution doesn't solve the problem either, it just makes it easier for the class specific items to be resold by that class.
I don't dissagree but, as long as people are able to do it they will continue to abuse it. Better to send in some suggestions to change it rather then posting on the General forums about it.
Let's just simplify loot. I mean, really, really simplify it.
I mean, really. You want to get rid of ninja-looting? Get to the heart of the problem. Modifying the need/greed system is only strapping a bandaid on the problem: You will still have to stop, examine the gear and decide how to roll for it, it will still disrupt the flow of combat, it will still create strife and contention amongst party members. People will still be kicked because gear will still be "ninja looted" by players who won't understand the rules (frequently because they are new to the game and don't understand how it's played).
So change the core mechanic. Step away from a system that has never really worked well in any MMO, and come up with something new. Simply take away the ability to ninja loot, and be done with it.
Be sure to roll need on all and remind your whole party to do that same. In the current loot system the greed button is just another pass button. This may change in the future but for right now this is what you have to work with.
Don’t conflate fair with efficient though. Fair means everyone gets the same chance. Efficient means everyone gets what they need as quickly as possible. Rolling need on all is not efficient. You will end up with other people’s things and they will end up with yours. Not efficient.
But if you do not roll need then you don’t have a chance at all to get the item. Ninja’s always win when you hit greed. So efficiency can only get worse. Even though needing on all is not very efficient, it is as efficient as it can be while giving you a chance to win.
You also have to face the fact that with the current loot system, you may be forced to buy your equipment on the AH. And you will need AD for that. Those items that aren’t your class will help toward that goal but only if you have them to sell.
And finally, rolling need on all doesn’t mean you have to be scummy about it. You can give away or trade anything you want. No one is making you keep it. If you win someone else’s things you can be their hero. Who knows, you might even start a trend.
Until something is done about the loot system, roll need on all and remind your party to do the same.
Seriously this! 1000 times this. NGP is a broken relic. Every fix has its own issues. We found something new to the same tired old tab targeting combat system. Why are so many willing to then continue to cling to other outdated systems. Replace it already!
being able to buy best in slot gear from AH is laughable.
The point remains that the OP (and myself) were speaking about class-specific items only, therefore the other items are mute. However, even as a DC, I really don't know that "Holy Symbol A" is an upgrade for me until I ID it, but I can be fairly certain that you, the GWF cannot equip it, so it's certainly not an upgrade for you.
Personally I'd like to see the system just auto-roll on anything green (and presumably requires ID) and just assigns it like potions and such, with nobody else even seeing it. Or maybe seeing it in the chat window or loot alert? The same should go for runes and enchants and such. But blue drops, random ones and especially boss drops should only be needed by someone to whom it is actually a potential upgrade. I'm talking gear-wise here, the idea that "I need AD and/or gold" is not the intent, nor is it in the spirit of the Need/Greed roll system.
Maybe the option of instant PvP could solve this little problem, if one person selects need against the defined agreement? Learning through pain is a good lecturing method.
You could legit ninja your own class itens.
I guess do less trouble than only restrict the sell after.
That's stupid, I might like the second item better than the first. If it is for my class, I should be able to roll need and sort it out afterwards. If it is not for my class, I should roll greed or pass on it.
If need is disabled for all non-class items it solves the problems.
Logic;).
well, dont like the roll go find teammate for party dungeon nor skirmish, queue is just random at everything. choosing queue rather then find decent teammate means you are gambling all the way in the area, including item. there is no bind on pickup, because if that happen AH is pointless trading is pointless, hell, why even you playing MMO anyway? beside, there is no limit how many time you can queue a dungeon nor skirmish, the leveling is already easy on the game dont be lazy, keep up with the item roll
The only time I hit anything but Need (items for me), or Pass (It's not for me) is when it is a good CW items and our CW passes on it because I would be gathering those for a friend of mine.
I would totally back this idea.
Personally I'd like to see a much better system too; I'm not some loot ***** monster, but this system is broken, and unfortunately the normal need/greed just makes it worse. Hell I give away epic loot in other games, so I'm probably too generous. Bottom line for me; is the system fair, and this one isn't (I think we agree). I don't see Cryptic changing the system, because this is a money maker for them, requiring ID scrolls. The lack of transparency caused by the need for ID scrolls on loot is where what can be a very fair system, (Need vs Greed), turns into an unfair system, with the only fair option being for all players to click need. It sucks, yeah I agree, but it's fair, because it creates a level playing field, and relies on the systems random number generator to decide outcomes, rather than stacking the deck based on usability. As far as purples go, it depends on the situation. I inspect people I group with in games, so if an item drops, I pretty much know if it's an upgrade for anyone. If it's an upgrade I pass, but it still wouldn't be unfair of me to roll given the games current state. If I know that CW already has the same or better item, I'll need for sure, because it's not an upgrade.
Oh, and no, I'm not slow, nor do I suffer from ADHD, I'm just old...
Not true, you outlevel skirmishes, and fairly quickly:(.
true, but you can go back if you found teammate on that level. you out level the skirmish/dungeon, I believe most people love to get you in party. beside you outlevel the dungeon/skirmish fast, why not after something above you rather something below you right, you came into dungeon and skirsmish with party, not alone.
How hard is it to understand that "I want money" = greed?
So the man who hasn't eaten for a week that wants 1 dollar to buy a box of kraft dinner is greedy yeah?
People like you ruin MMO communities.
"I need money" = need
That's funny because I only roll need when other people are doing the same. It really annoys me when people roll greed on stuff though, your just asking for the shady dude in teh party to ninja the first purple that drops.
Will you die of starvation if you don't get that gear upgrade you need, because someone rolled on something not for their class?
You completely missed the point btw, I was pointing out that wanting money not always = greed.
Dude that rolls need on an item upgrade "needs" it to progress his character.
Dude that rolls on something not for his class to trade/sell "needs" it to progress his character.
Thus the obvious solution is to need every BoE that drops (which is everything).
It's not people like me that ruin MMO communities. It's the poor logic of individuals within the community that fail to understand anything besides what is typed on the buttons you press to roll for drops.
"Other people are jerks so I should be too" isn't a very strong argument. And again, people don't seem to understand the difference between "need" and "want". It's a much wider social problem outside the scope of this thread.