My reason for changing it to anything else, is because it's currently horrendously bad in it's current form... GF's have the armor, and nothing else. and Mark is such a badly designed class skill that it's just is another fecal cherry on the HAMSTER cupcake that is Guardian Fighter.
My reason for changing it to anything else, is because it's currently horrendously bad in it's current form... GF's have the armor, and nothing else. and Mark is such a badly designed class skill that it's just is another fecal cherry on the HAMSTER cupcake that is Guardian Fighter.
Maybe the OP meant exchange it for? I mean you answered "why would you change it?" which is even further from what they actually wrote.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
There is a taunt component in marking, otherwise they would not start to attack you after only being 'marked'.
I can honestly just spam taunt some bosses and hold/spin agro. With Enhanced Mark ; Marked targets now build Threat while Marked, and you generate 33% more Threat when striking them.
The only "taunt" component in the entire game has been given to a free common quality companion. Mark doesn't taunt it just give a (high if specced into) boost to your threat for your next following attacks on the target, that's not instant, actually the blocking stab at-will acts more as a "taunt" mechanic, but it's a high threat move you won't steal aggro if it's solid enough on someone else, but most time with 2-3 hits while marked you get him. Anyway, i think people put too much effort on the threat issue, it's a slight inconvenient at higher compared to the lack of utility or damage or something our role should gives to party. Main issue is not threat, the real issue is the class doesn't bring something on par with the other roles while the game mechanic tends to give more credit to offense vs defense, even with sky-high threat, GF has a serious problem, a party-role identity crisis and struggles to give a valuable benefit in a group where everyone can be top-off and dodge while they can focus on their role.
As for the "TAB" button, i don't want threat, i want something that defines my class and his role, aggro shouldn't be it, it should already be acquired since it's a basic function of a tank, not something unique about specifically the Guardian Fighter. Give a heal to the cleric as TAB button, a damaging ability for the rogue and a generic single target control spell to the CW... you now have a lack-luster class that doesn't bring something challenging and fun. Then make sure a basic aspect of their role is not filled properly, you are at GF level, and making a positive impact in group will be hard and people will tend to replace it by an alternative, like double-cleric for example.
Maybe they need to take a look at the D&D 4e Defender role. Their game can't reproduce his role properly, that's not me saying this, that's what how they were intended to be when WotC released their first 4e Player handbook:
What does it mean to be a Defender? As a defender, it is your job to counter and negate enemy attacks. The importance of the role is obvious: If you and your allies are petrified, unconscious or dead, you'll lose the fight, no matter how much damage your group can put out. If your group takes too much damage, they burn through healing surges too fast. [...] The classic defender is the frontline of the party, holding of the brutes' and soldiers' attacks, and preventing them from reaching softer targets. This is a valid tactic, of course, embodied by the shield-bearing Fighter and Paladin, but effective defense can be done in other ways as the highly mobile Assault Swordmage shows.
At the moment:
1)Damage is more valued into instance than defense, since no ones is vulnerable.
2)Heal is not a rare good, it's infinite, stone of health, cleric can spam, potions. It is easy to get heal exactly when you need it for the amount you need (or more, it's actually more simple). Recovery, short cooldown on potions remove the need to use them smartly and strategically, over-healing is common business, no one is in danger before something happens.
3)Boss fights doesn't bring a challenging mechanic that restrain other party members, overusing adds mechanic only. If they can't be kill easily without effort, kitting become the most-accepted and most rewarding strategy. I don't even mention the over abundance of cliffs and pits.
4)Protecting softer target... softer target doesn't need your help, they are more mobile than you and even the mobs, excluding the crowd control. They want your damage for the boss to die, so they can get their chest a the end and start another dungeon before the dungeon delves timer runs out.
To reach this goal, all defenders use a powerful tactic: boost up their own defenses and die-hardness, and then put enemies before a choice. Either attack the defender, or be punished. The key ability of every defender class to work this punishment is with their mark.
Again the choices for the foe:
A: Attack the defender
Concentrate your attacks on the defender. He has high defenses, high hit points and ways to remove or ignore status effects. This makes the enemy's attack likely to have little impact.
B: Soak the punishment
Try to circumvent the defender and attack his softer allies. First of all, the defender imposes a penalty to this attack with his mark. Then, each defender class has individual ways to keep the enemy from reaching the target, staying near the enemy, reducing the attack's effect or punishing the enemy.
A good defender needs to make both A and B painful for the enemy. If he neglects his defense, he is a liability to the party because it is easier for enemies to render him ineffective with weaken, stun and other effects. He also needs to be healed more often, which drains party resources. If he neglects B, he'll be like a stone pillar that enemies can't push over, but they can just walk around him and kill his allies first, then finish him off last.
The class doesn't have the tool at the moment to do his expected role in a game mechanic that doesn't require his role.
Our defensive talents is crippled by broken feats and lack-lusting powers. On the other hand, they are not required to stay alive at least.
While we are not generating enough "threat", we are not even threatening at all for the opponents, we have sub-par dps and barely no utility if we are not "tanking" or not holding aggro (which happens too often).
That's my opinion and what i had expected of the guardian fighter.
I would go for something like Knight's Challenge or a straight up damage reduction tanking cooldown. I do not know how balanced that would be, but with block severely lacking in my opinion, a straight up damage reduction cooldown does not sound like a bad idea in my book and perhaps it could be something like 20% for 5 seconds with a 1 or 2 minute cooldown.
I'm increasingly convinced Knights Challenge would the best option as an alternative or replacement to mark, specifically it would also help non conqueror builds doing some damage against single targets.
^ Above is exactly the best solution to the problem and has been posed as a solution multiple times.
Knights challenge needs to be the tab skill. It boosts damage (which is highly valuable in instances) but also makes YOU more vulnerable as well = meaning you have to use it appropriately to use it successfully. It also only boosts 1v1 damage so it wont be OP in groups, Also would have a duration that while spammable is you want, it doesnt last forever meaning youll be using it 24/7 on targets when appropriate.
Two posts above nailed it. The challenge has two options 1) Attack the GF or soak the damage. Either way, you have a possible way for a GF to do SOME tanking because he will have threat either via the knights challenge or the damage he does to the target.
The mark mechanic can ALREADY be applied a bunch of other ways so you dont even have to change that at all. People will still used enforced threat to mark as well as threatening rush, leave it in the game AS IS. Just put knights challenge (or the option to add it) as your tab ability instead!
This SINGLE change would balance GFs from what I can see... I cannot imagine it would be hard to do, and I also since this is "beta" just do it and let US figure out if it works or not. The only thing I would do is reduce the damage delt and taken to maybe 20-25%. But seriously, just change it and you can tweak it from there....
If things like this are not changed fast enough people move on as evidenced in D3... Things went unbalanced for so long that people gre bored and quit. I dont want that to happen here so learn from the mistake. Keeping customers is better then putting new sellable items up, trust me... WoW became successful FIRST then expanded to increased revenue...
The mechanic is fine in theory if a little lackluster. Simply make any target marked receive some percent additional damage from attacks. This makes attacking the gf a good idea rather then his party members, it'd even work somewhat in pvp.
Simply make any target marked receive some percent additional damage from attacks.
That is exactly what Knights Challenge does. Although it also makes the marked target DEAL more damage to the GF as well.. This would do what is desired both in PVE and PVP. Make the GF a target to attack, not just someone to run around, especially in PVE.
as it is right now, the mark really does nothing, hell even if anything just remove the part of the mark that gets rid of it when they hit you. What the heck is the mark even good for? basically only your next attack?
That is exactly what Knights Challenge does. Although it also makes the marked target DEAL more damage to the GF as well.. This would do what is desired both in PVE and PVP. Make the GF a target to attack, not just someone to run around, especially in PVE.
as it is right now, the mark really does nothing, hell even if anything just remove the part of the mark that gets rid of it when they hit you. What the heck is the mark even good for? basically only your next attack?
Knight's challenge is similar to what I'm suggesting yes, but I suggest the damage bonus apply for any of the gf's party members as well, with no drawback to the gf. That way it stays a useful core mechanic rather then a situational ability.
Comments
My reason for changing it to anything else, is because it's currently horrendously bad in it's current form... GF's have the armor, and nothing else. and Mark is such a badly designed class skill that it's just is another fecal cherry on the HAMSTER cupcake that is Guardian Fighter.
Maybe the OP meant exchange it for? I mean you answered "why would you change it?" which is even further from what they actually wrote.
he could have, in which case I'd simply answer "I'd change it for a REAL taunt"
The only "taunt" component in the entire game has been given to a free common quality companion. Mark doesn't taunt it just give a (high if specced into) boost to your threat for your next following attacks on the target, that's not instant, actually the blocking stab at-will acts more as a "taunt" mechanic, but it's a high threat move you won't steal aggro if it's solid enough on someone else, but most time with 2-3 hits while marked you get him. Anyway, i think people put too much effort on the threat issue, it's a slight inconvenient at higher compared to the lack of utility or damage or something our role should gives to party. Main issue is not threat, the real issue is the class doesn't bring something on par with the other roles while the game mechanic tends to give more credit to offense vs defense, even with sky-high threat, GF has a serious problem, a party-role identity crisis and struggles to give a valuable benefit in a group where everyone can be top-off and dodge while they can focus on their role.
What does it mean to be a Defender? As a defender, it is your job to counter and negate enemy attacks. The importance of the role is obvious: If you and your allies are petrified, unconscious or dead, you'll lose the fight, no matter how much damage your group can put out. If your group takes too much damage, they burn through healing surges too fast. [...] The classic defender is the frontline of the party, holding of the brutes' and soldiers' attacks, and preventing them from reaching softer targets. This is a valid tactic, of course, embodied by the shield-bearing Fighter and Paladin, but effective defense can be done in other ways as the highly mobile Assault Swordmage shows.
At the moment:
1)Damage is more valued into instance than defense, since no ones is vulnerable.
2)Heal is not a rare good, it's infinite, stone of health, cleric can spam, potions. It is easy to get heal exactly when you need it for the amount you need (or more, it's actually more simple). Recovery, short cooldown on potions remove the need to use them smartly and strategically, over-healing is common business, no one is in danger before something happens.
3)Boss fights doesn't bring a challenging mechanic that restrain other party members, overusing adds mechanic only. If they can't be kill easily without effort, kitting become the most-accepted and most rewarding strategy. I don't even mention the over abundance of cliffs and pits.
4)Protecting softer target... softer target doesn't need your help, they are more mobile than you and even the mobs, excluding the crowd control. They want your damage for the boss to die, so they can get their chest a the end and start another dungeon before the dungeon delves timer runs out.
To reach this goal, all defenders use a powerful tactic: boost up their own defenses and die-hardness, and then put enemies before a choice. Either attack the defender, or be punished. The key ability of every defender class to work this punishment is with their mark.
Again the choices for the foe:
A: Attack the defender
Concentrate your attacks on the defender. He has high defenses, high hit points and ways to remove or ignore status effects. This makes the enemy's attack likely to have little impact.
B: Soak the punishment
Try to circumvent the defender and attack his softer allies. First of all, the defender imposes a penalty to this attack with his mark. Then, each defender class has individual ways to keep the enemy from reaching the target, staying near the enemy, reducing the attack's effect or punishing the enemy.
A good defender needs to make both A and B painful for the enemy. If he neglects his defense, he is a liability to the party because it is easier for enemies to render him ineffective with weaken, stun and other effects. He also needs to be healed more often, which drains party resources. If he neglects B, he'll be like a stone pillar that enemies can't push over, but they can just walk around him and kill his allies first, then finish him off last.
The class doesn't have the tool at the moment to do his expected role in a game mechanic that doesn't require his role.
Our defensive talents is crippled by broken feats and lack-lusting powers. On the other hand, they are not required to stay alive at least.
While we are not generating enough "threat", we are not even threatening at all for the opponents, we have sub-par dps and barely no utility if we are not "tanking" or not holding aggro (which happens too often).
That's my opinion and what i had expected of the guardian fighter.
Knights challenge needs to be the tab skill. It boosts damage (which is highly valuable in instances) but also makes YOU more vulnerable as well = meaning you have to use it appropriately to use it successfully. It also only boosts 1v1 damage so it wont be OP in groups, Also would have a duration that while spammable is you want, it doesnt last forever meaning youll be using it 24/7 on targets when appropriate.
Two posts above nailed it. The challenge has two options 1) Attack the GF or soak the damage. Either way, you have a possible way for a GF to do SOME tanking because he will have threat either via the knights challenge or the damage he does to the target.
The mark mechanic can ALREADY be applied a bunch of other ways so you dont even have to change that at all. People will still used enforced threat to mark as well as threatening rush, leave it in the game AS IS. Just put knights challenge (or the option to add it) as your tab ability instead!
This SINGLE change would balance GFs from what I can see... I cannot imagine it would be hard to do, and I also since this is "beta" just do it and let US figure out if it works or not. The only thing I would do is reduce the damage delt and taken to maybe 20-25%. But seriously, just change it and you can tweak it from there....
If things like this are not changed fast enough people move on as evidenced in D3... Things went unbalanced for so long that people gre bored and quit. I dont want that to happen here so learn from the mistake. Keeping customers is better then putting new sellable items up, trust me... WoW became successful FIRST then expanded to increased revenue...
That or make the marked target force taunted until a meter runs out, say about 30 seconds worth, maybe longer.
That is exactly what Knights Challenge does. Although it also makes the marked target DEAL more damage to the GF as well.. This would do what is desired both in PVE and PVP. Make the GF a target to attack, not just someone to run around, especially in PVE.
as it is right now, the mark really does nothing, hell even if anything just remove the part of the mark that gets rid of it when they hit you. What the heck is the mark even good for? basically only your next attack?
Knight's challenge is similar to what I'm suggesting yes, but I suggest the damage bonus apply for any of the gf's party members as well, with no drawback to the gf. That way it stays a useful core mechanic rather then a situational ability.