If you could change the Tab skill for Guardian Fighter, what would you change it for?

tantivetyrell

Mark target is kind lackluster compared to the active ones from the other classes. If you could change it to something fun, comparing to the other classes, what would you suggest?
I've heard people mention that putting enforced threat in there would be much more fun. I agree, though I also had the thought of a sortof 'shieldwall' ability.
Perhaps pressing tab would put down an arc in front of your character, and allies behind you would be protected from damage that hit on your shields. A barrier or saving your ally ability.
This is just a thought I had, and it would be nice to hear more ideas in a singular thread. I barely even touch tab, with exception to taunt attract attention of a mob further away, but its somewhat boring as a dedicated tab skill.

supjeremiah

I would make it so that you can put Knight's Challenge there as an alternative.

zurkhon

supjeremiah wrote: »

I would make it so that you can put Knight's Challenge there as an alternative.

^This. I would just prefer the TAB ability be Knight's Challenge.

dartakx

i already gave a tabletop perspective about this in another post, feel free to comment, improve my idea.

That's my feeling/suggestion about improving the mark/TAB class feature of the GF.

**
If we compare to the tabletop mark effect it should gives an attack roll penalty of 2 (on a 20 side-dice) to the marked creature against allies of the one who marked it (roughly 10%) and it's not even a class feature, it's an effect, like stun, blind, combat advantage (it would be like giving the combat advantage class feature to the rogue only, that doesn't make more senses, and doesn't give a good representation of the fighter). Mark effect could then decrease damage done from the marked target on allies by 10%. The feat could then increase this value from 10 to 20%.

If mark is the class feature of the guardian fighter, if you plan to add another tank you will want them to mark too, since it's a "tank" / defender feature. I mean it would suck to have all the tank classes with the same lack-luster class feature.

The class feature of the fighter should be Combat Challenge, the punishment served to the one who ignore him. Like the paladin, swordmage and warden, they all differ not by the fact they mark but how their powers applies the mark condition and whats the punishment to ignore it. There's no threat in D&D 4e, the tank mechanic act as a discouragement for the his marked target to hit his allies, they either hit the defender or take his retaliation.

The combat challenge feature is the real class feature of a guardian fighter, it's a free additional attack each time a marked target hit one of his ally while he is not included (will not trigger in an AoE he's included in. ) How you could put it in the game?

Guardian Fighter Class feature

Combat Challenge
10 seconds cooldown.

"Trigger: A target affected by your mark does damage to an ally.

(Consider that if you are included in an AoE or you took damage from that attack then the mark should be removed before as usual, not triggering combat challenge)

Activate the combat challenge feature for 5 sec.

Combat Challenge allow you to charge at the target dealing moderate damage and cause an high amount of threat on the target. Target is also immobilize for 1 second."

(I think immobilize would help vs running target, the bane of threatening rush)

Now you fix two issue:

1) A fun and meaningful class feature that really give a good feeling to the class.

2) A threat mechanic to make him a real single-target tank as he's supposed to be in the game.

and even:

3) You set up a way to make the GF an unique tank vs other tank class(es) that you might include in the game if you feel like it.

You then keep Threatening rush and enforced threat as a mark generator and you then add a mark condition from Tide of Iron and for the third swing of cleave and crushing surge. You now have 4 at-wills that can put the mark condition, 2 quickly and 2 not focused primary to mark, but can do it. Enforced threat remains the main mass-mark targeting power, fighter doesn't need more AoE threat, it's the GWF to kill them or the CW to control them or if not, DR deal with them.

You can even add a feat or two to this power. Wherever it seems adequate. Like:

Distracting Shield
Your combat challenge power also reduce the amount of damage done by the target by 2/4/6/8/10 % for the next 5 seconds. (good protector feat for both PvE and PvP)

Shield Push
Your combat challenge as 20/40/60/80/100% chance to knock your target and leave him prone instead of immobilizing him. (Good again for PvE and PvP and give a bit more utility to Pin cushion and trample the fallen that are barely used since the lack of control power of the guardian fighter.)

Potent challenge
Increase the threat and damage done by your combat challenge feature by 5/10/15% and also giving you 1/2/3% of your max hp as temporary Hit points.

Just my 2 cents. Feel free to comment or modifying my idea.

etherealj

-30% damage taken -30% movement speed +100% agro for 15 seconds.

jaymadiv

Enforced Threat.

mandoknight89

My idea, based on how the pen & paper 4e Fighter works, adapted for the action-y gameplay:

Combat Challenge (Tab toggle):

• Every enemy struck by every attack you make is Marked for 6 seconds while Combat Challenge is active. Some powers will increase the duration of the Mark.
• Marking an enemy greatly increases threat on you, and causes them to deal 10% less damage against everyone that's not you.
• Marked enemies that attack your allies suffer a short debuff (~6 seconds or until they attack you) that decreases their Armor (possibly only against your attacks).
• Marked enemies within 15 feet are Slowed.

Why a toggle, and not a pure passive? Because there are times when you don't want to Mark an enemy, usually when you've taken enough damage that you want to give the Cleric enough time to catch up on healing you, or when there's two Defenders in the group and the other has a Mark that's better in a given situation (the latter will only really happen once we get another Defender like the Paladin or Swordmage in).

jaymadiv

Marked Enemies doing 10% less damage to anyone other than you, is already in the game as a Feat.

that feat would need to be replaced as Combat Challenge would make it either redundant, or overpowered.

mandoknight89

jmadfour wrote: »

Marked Enemies doing 10% less damage to anyone other than you, is already in the game as a Feat.

that feat would need to be replaced as Combat Challenge would make it either redundant, or overpowered.

A second-tier Paragon feat, in order to try to emulate something that any 4e Fighter can do from day 1. Defenders are supposed to make attacking anyone else a bad idea, but Guardian Fighters currently can't do that effectively. As written, it would require the Fighter to stay engaged to keep the debuff in place, and rewards them for doing so. An enemy that responds to the increased threat by engaging only the Fighter mitigates the other debuffs, but accomplishes what the Mark is intended to do. Without a significant penalty for ignoring the Fighter's Mark, the Fighter becomes a class with a good amount of damage reduction but much less DPS and mobility... exactly the kind of class that gets considered useless by a lot of players around here (survivability isn't rewarded nearly as much as DPS or mobility).

I'll grant that the feat would probably have to be reworked to fit with the altered Challenge.

dartakx

mandoknight89 wrote: »

My idea, based on how the pen & paper 4e Fighter works, adapted for the action-y gameplay:

Combat Challenge (Tab toggle):

• Every enemy struck by every attack you make is Marked for 6 seconds while Combat Challenge is active. Some powers will increase the duration of the Mark.
• Marking an enemy greatly increases threat on you, and causes them to deal 10% less damage against everyone that's not you.
• Marked enemies that attack your allies suffer a short debuff (~6 seconds or until they attack you) that decreases their Armor (possibly only against your attacks).
• Marked enemies within 15 feet are Slowed.

I'm not a fan of 2 things here:

1)Every enemy struck by every attack you make is Marked for 6 seconds while Combat Challenge is active. Some powers will increase the duration of the Mark.

Mobs doesn't need to be marked that easily. Fighter doesn't need absolute threat with 1 button to be effective. I think it removes the "special" about mark. No GF need or should need to apply mark easily without effort, specifically if we would like the mark to give 10% damage reduction like in tabletop. I feel it's like saying: CW are control, you need stuns to control, then every single attack of the CW will stun 1 sec. By making it to common, you reduce the strategic use of the powers to mark and give the feeling that it just need to be remove from the game if it's always applied anyway when you want it, make it simple and just give a passive that increase threat by 100% at this point.

I think it's a good thing you need to block or dodge to keep the mark on, it keeps the class active and fun, not just like pressing 1-2-3 1-2-3 'look im tankin!'

I think adding the mark on tide of iron, keep it on threatening rush, and enhanced threat it's way enough. Anyway marking the target should not be the only way to tank him. Like conqueror build, i'm fine if they keep aggro with damage for example. Mark should be an utility not something mandatory to hold threat.

2)Marked enemies within 15 feet are slowed.

That's ridiculous, and simply not necessary, and as a passive? seriously, i could see a feat that give the slow effect on an at-will power at a certain condition. But as a feature? It's not even logic and linked with the fighter in the books. I think you tried to translate part of the combat superiority effect in the book but that's really off the track imo and far from what we need to be balanced and effective in our role.

But overall it's not a bad idea for the passive, it could work well. But i would give it a duration like the guard meter or divinity, or actually give it something unwanted, a drawback while active like reduced movement speed or less damage for increased threat. There's barely a strategic use to this, except the "turn it off if you are hurt, stop hitting me."

dartakx

jmadfour wrote: »

Marked Enemies doing 10% less damage to anyone other than you, is already in the game as a Feat.

that feat would need to be replaced as Combat Challenge would make it either redundant, or overpowered.

Then just say mark effect is 10% and the feat add another 10% on top of it. Similar feat in the books grants that same additional effect to the mark and i don't feel it would be too strong, we have a power that reduce all damage to allies by 50% and it doesn't give us regularly a spot in T2.

We talk about 5 point feats to make only the marked target doing 20% less on allies. Considering the main goal is the marked target shouldn't hit allies at all.

mandoknight89

dartakx wrote: »

No GF need or should need to apply mark easily without effort, specifically if we would like the mark to give 10% damage reduction like in tabletop.

Except it is that easy in tabletop, whether it's the original PHB Fighter or the Knight (where it's even easier, actually... the Knight has an aura of "hey, you, fight me!"). I don't like disengaging to keep increased threat... it's completely counter-intuitive, and having the mark wear off after one strike while also making it so that you can't mark while attacking (or blocking) makes the ability to mark outside of attack + mark powers completely useless. Adjusting the duration of the mark would be reasonable, though. Making it dispelled by them successfully attacking you once when you need to stop attacking or use weaker attacks to initiate it isn't.

Slowing a marked target within melee range (yes, 15 feet is melee range in Neverwinter, last I checked) is weaker than Combat Superiority. Attacks of Opportunity are easier to improve than standard basic attacks, and Combat Superiority not only cancels enemy movement with a successful attack of opportunity, it also grants an additional bonus to the attack roll. Combined with Weapon Talent, it's often very easy to ensure that the AoO hits.

remedialhappyman

Heres what I would like.

A toggle like the cleric.

Offense and Defense.

For every marked target within 50ft gain X power/Armor Pen based on remaining Guard Meter

For every marked target within 50ft gain X Defense and Deflection Based on Depleted Guard Meter

Only one can be active at a time and add some sort of restriction to it.
eg. may be switched from offense after x damage done
may be switched from defense after x damage blocked

Add mark and an x second taunt or x amount of threat (sufficient enough to juggle taunts on multiple mobs or to indefinitely hold a boss if added into a rotation) onto tide of iron and maybe add variant abilities for offense and defense.

I've always felt GF was a patient resource balancing game incombat and I think these changes would completely emphasize a focus on forethought and decision making by reading the fight in PvP or PvE

jipatsu

remedialhappyman wrote: »

Heres what I would like.

A toggle like the cleric.

Offense and Defense.

For every marked target within 50ft gain X power/Armor Pen based on remaining Guard Meter

For every marked target within 50ft gain X Defense and Deflection Based on Depleted Guard Meter

Only one can be active at a time and add some sort of restriction to it.
eg. may be switched from offense after x damage done
may be switched from defense after x damage blocked

Add mark and an x second taunt or x amount of threat (sufficient enough to juggle taunts on multiple mobs or to indefinitely hold a boss if added into a rotation) onto tide of iron and maybe add variant abilities for offense and defense.

I've always felt GF was a patient resource balancing game incombat and I think these changes would completely emphasize a focus on forethought and decision making by reading the fight in PvP or PvE

I like this Defense / offense idea. And it could toggle automatically from defense mode to offense mode when the guard brakes.

remedialhappyman

Idk I feel like it would be cooler if there was a knowledge cap to it like the restriction presents thats valuable and punishing in pvp and pve. In fact the more I think about it, I feel like each stance should have negative effects as well.

Offense, take X more damage
Defense, lose X damage

Lets use an example to show why I think this would be cool.

Your tanking Mad Dragon and its your job to tank add's as they spawn while the mage/rogue holds the dragon. When the adds are up you want defensive stance up which means 2 things during the time in between adds.
A) You want to deal a certain amount of damage so you can switch to defense from Offence.
You want to not get hit while you are in offence since you take more damage and a fuller guard meter means more damage.

And then in Defense you obviously don't want to stay their for any more time than you have too and you want to manage you block so you have just enough to survive if you mess up so you get max mitigation. And you need to take enough damage to switch to offence for when the adds thin out with a full guard meter.

Basically the more you know a fight the more reactive and efficient you can be with the switches as opposed to it just being automatic. If you mess up and leave yourself unable to switch when you need too then you might put yourself in trouble.

I'm sure you can imagine how awesome this would be to manage in PvP.

It sounds like it would be a massive deal more fun in theory than what we have now. It would also make tide of iron a tool for managing guard for switches.

dartakx

mandoknight89 wrote: »

Except it is that easy in tabletop, whether it's the original PHB Fighter or the Knight (where it's even easier, actually... the Knight has an aura of "hey, you, fight me!"). I don't like disengaging to keep increased threat... it's completely counter-intuitive, and having the mark wear off after one strike while also making it so that you can't mark while attacking (or blocking) makes the ability to mark outside of attack + mark powers completely useless. Adjusting the duration of the mark would be reasonable, though. Making it dispelled by them successfully attacking you once when you need to stop attacking or use weaker attacks to initiate it isn't.

Slowing a marked target within melee range (yes, 15 feet is melee range in Neverwinter, last I checked) is weaker than Combat Superiority. Attacks of Opportunity are easier to improve than standard basic attacks, and Combat Superiority not only cancels enemy movement with a successful attack of opportunity, it also grants an additional bonus to the attack roll. Combined with Weapon Talent, it's often very easy to ensure that the AoO hits.

That's the tactical part of the game when a dm controls monsters vs an AI environment, that's where an action-based game differ from miniatures on a grid in a turn-based tactical game. I would see that for a maybe future Warden but not for a fighter. I don't feel you should one click and get everyone marked/tanked and slow in an aura around you, that would be a dull, unnecessary and dumbed-down way to play a tank.

tantivetyrell

supjeremiah wrote: »

I would make it so that you can put Knight's Challenge there as an alternative.

I would like this, I really don't like putting knights challenge away from my encounter bars.

tantivetyrell

The X marks on top of enemies when using tab skill, does it have the same effects as the X's produced with enforced threat, or threatening rush?

ussultimatum

I think supjeremiah's idea of knight's challenge could be really interesting.



Or maybe a (personal defense+threat)/(offense+team benefit) stance shifting mechanic might be interesting. (just spitballing here)





That's something that struck me when I played my first DC post GF, was just how interesting and fun Channel Divinity was and how relatively lame the GF mark ability is.

lltsnwn

tantivetyrell wrote: »

Mark target is kind lackluster compared to the active ones from the other classes. If you could change it to something fun, comparing to the other classes, what would you suggest?
I've heard people mention that putting enforced threat in there would be much more fun. I agree, though I also had the thought of a sortof 'shieldwall' ability.
Perhaps pressing tab would put down an arc in front of your character, and allies behind you would be protected from damage that hit on your shields. A barrier or saving your ally ability.
This is just a thought I had, and it would be nice to hear more ideas in a singular thread. I barely even touch tab, with exception to taunt attract attention of a mob further away, but its somewhat boring as a dedicated tab skill.

I use the Mark ability often as a pulling skill as I don't have ANY ranged attacks... Regardless of what is changed I still NEED a Mark like ranged pulling ability that doesn't require me to move into melee.

lltsnwn

I would like the Tab ability to be like World of Warcraft warrior stance that would change us from a Tank/Defense/Threat mode to a DPS/Offense/Threat Reduction mode. For PvP, off tanking, etc it would be nice if I could switch to a more offensive stance/mode.

voodoogroves

Well ... I'd be ok with either a passive "mode/stance" like Divinity or an active like CW get.

If it is active, I'd add an additional boost to the various powers that maybe drops their direct damage, but applies a marking effect and/or multiplies threat.

I don't mind a block stance, but then again I don't mind the current block mechanic.

What I do mind, terribly, is the rooting and lack of movement. Playing a guardian is really, painfully slow.

etherealj

Tab should just let you toggle a % debuff to damage taken and damage given with a massive threat increase.

Do 30% less damage but take 30% less damage while putting out 100% more agro. Turn it off to dps.

ayroux

supjeremiah wrote: »

I would make it so that you can put Knight's Challenge there as an alternative.

This is a REALLY good idea... The tab should NOT reduce damage taken.. You want the ability to have PVE and PVP benefits... reducing damage taken will cause PVP players to say "forget that tank" - which they ALREADY do... "Threat" should be just that... a threat! give the GF some bite with its bark....

I would make the "tab" = "Knights Challenge" but reduce the damage to maybe ~25% more outgoing and incoming from that target. Maybe even get rid of the AoE punishment there and have it only be a 1 on 1 buff/debuff. The two "locked" targets do 25% more damage to eachother for X seconds...

This will not only help single target threat for GFs in PVE (more damage = more threat on single target) It also is a good PVP tool in that it adds that mentality in PVP to also attack the "tank" class instead because of the damage buff to him and against you... Makes the tank more squishy to the threatened target but also makes THEM more squishy too!

Makes it revolve around "skill" on the person being threatened. Accept the challenge or you will die... This will change some of the game mechanics a TON and also give the GF class the edge it needs in tanking ability. I know I would use this immensely...

baohsu

I would actually do something similar to the CW's Tab, where you could slot an encounter power there, but the power adds MARK to anything it hits per normal function.

In the case of non dmging powers, or party buffs, I would offer a short dmg resistence buff to be added to you or your party. (i.e. Into the Fray, Knight's Valor)

proping

Other than the broken agro in T2's, the ability is great just where it is. Skirmish bosses can be spam tab taunted to spin them effectively and avoid the effect areas.

Rather than replace this skill, it should be used more often. Sword and Board tanks need to & must always taunt - this is 101 of a shield tank.

Stop trying to be everything; be what you were made for. Taunting BAMs then guarding up and enjoying the free AP. Move so that you taunt the BAM to spin away from your group so they get Combat Advantage. This increases overall DPS for the group.

Effective use of a spammable taunt with enhanced mark, a good shield surge to mark the group + a little villains menace + frontline surge , repeat vs 1 skill like knights valor that has a cool down? I'm happy with my taunt.

jipatsu

proping wrote: »

Other than the broken agro in T2's, the ability is great just where it is. Skirmish bosses can be spam tab taunted to spin them effectively and avoid the effect areas.

Rather than replace this skill, it should be used more often. Sword and Board tanks need to & must always taunt - this is 101 of a shield tank.

Stop trying to be everything; be what you were made for. Taunting BAMs then guarding up and enjoying the free AP. Move so that you taunt the BAM to spin away from your group so they get Combat Advantage. This increases overall DPS for the group.

Effective use of a spammable taunt with enhanced mark, a good shield surge to mark the group + a little villains menace + frontline surge , repeat vs 1 skill like knights valor that has a cool down? I'm happy with my taunt.

Except that pressing tab does not taunt the target, it just marks it.

+ the aggro is a problem outside T2's too.

proping

There is a taunt component in marking, otherwise they would not start to attack you after only being 'marked'.
I can honestly just spam taunt some bosses and hold/spin agro. With Enhanced Mark ; Marked targets now build Threat while Marked, and you generate 33% more Threat when striking them.

llfritzll

I am not sure tab is the place to put it, but guardians need a new ability.

They need to be able to place a buff, or mark, on the groups cleric. Give the buff infinite duration until the person leaves group. While the buff is active it transfers a large percentage of the players threat to the guardian.

Then when you start in pve the guardian can mark the cleric and solve the threat issues this game has. This makes guardians required in groups to manage healer threat. This solves cleric threat issues. This makes the majority of enemies run straight for the guardian making their job easier.

I know its stolen from another game, but it would work in this game and it would solve multiple problems with one ability.

kaltrop

I would make it so when you hit that key the Auction House search would be fixed.

demonsunder

I would love it to be changed to a 180 Degrees missile reflect shield you have to hold down to keep up. 10ft x 10ft Arc that extends just in front of the guardian that the party could hide behind and alternately would like the ability to feat it so the shield then had collision detection and you could make shield wall's with other guard's (raiding niche?)