I repeat. You should never be using only frost spells. Those numbers are nice, until you factor in Arcane Presence and suddenly Magic Missile is giving Chilling Cloud 15% more damage. On top of that, having both MM and CC allows you to build arcane mastery stacks, chill and gives you both a single target and AoE at-will. Finally Arcane Presence gives your Chilling Strike, Icy Terrain, Ice Storm and Ice Knife a fat +15% damage. This is an especially powerful boost to tabbed Chilling Strike, which is considered a control power and so is affected by the Archmage set (ie, very spammable). Proper timing and the use of other arcane spells allows you to keep the stacks your MM has built up. And I ask again: what would you use as your fourth encounter power? There is no 4th frost encounter power. And are you seriously considering using Icy Rays as your third power in PvE? Are you really trying to market a wizard who refuses to use Arcane Singularity?
What is wrong with you people?
You can repeat all you want, it wont make your argument any stronger. You really have a narrow view of CWs. You should not be giving anyone advice on what to slot without even knowing what their spec is. With mine for example, I don't even worry about Arcane Mastery. I would not even put points in Arcane Presence let alont slot it with my setup. I would never switch an HV set for the Archmage. You really should experiment with all aspects of the class before telling people there is only "this" way to play a CW. You are asking what to put in the 4th slot? seriously? As if there is nothing that is worth slotting except Chill Strike? Again, with my setup, I hardly ever even have Chill Strike slotted, except for a boss to put extra debuff from proccing HV set. 80% of the time, I have CoI on Tab, Icy Terrain, Steal Timer, and Shield, and there isnt any trash pull, no matter how big, I couldnt handle with this setup. Is it the only way? of course not.
MM does almost double the damage of all the other at wills... dont know why you wouldnt use it.
Wow, not even close to double. At least, not double Ray of Frost.
In PVP I find myself using Ray of Frost a LOT. MM doesn't do much more damage, Ray of Frost procs storm spell more often and builds AP faster in my experience, while doing almost as much damage as MM and freezing my target relatively quickly.
For PVE? Yeah always MM.
0
cichardMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
I use entangling force in tab slot then i use icy terrian shield steal time MM and storm pillar. storm pillar is only used before boss fights or if i need to top off my AP after knocking mobs off ledges. Between Entangle and shield poping im always full AP and since every boss fight has tons of adds on it, im constantly chaining AS some times i have the 2nd AS going before the first one even ends.
The debate about MM is, at its heart, a debate about if you like AM or Chill more. Some builds get more out of chill, some do well with AM stacks. I personally am a chillin' sort of dude so when I hit level 20, MM went away to be replaced with Chill Cloud. That does not mean that MM is not worth using, but I get more for my money for chill stacks on this char.
There is something wrong with you. You argue that I should not be telling people to avoid a pure frost CW, and yet your own CW is not a pure frost CW. So how could you possibly know whether or not a pure frost cw works?
Me, my argument is based on fact and logic. You can't put a fourth frost encounter power in your bar because there are only three frost encounter powers in the game worth taking for PvE. Pure frost CWs don't work, they shouldn't even exist. You call yourself an experienced CW when you're telling people they should play a CW that should not cast Arcane Singularity? Or Steal Time? Or Shield/Repel?
Bottomline, you need to pick arcane powers and that's where arcane mastery comes in.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
0
malkavierMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
Also, if you do not have RoE in a slot, you're doing it wrong. What benefits RoE? AM stacks from MM. Paragon path doesn't matter, if RoE is not on your bar, you're DOING. IT. WRONG.
Why, might you ask? Because it's the only baseline mitigation debuff that the CW gets no matter which path they choose. If you are not using your mitigation debuff, you are terrible, and should feel terrible.
How Cryptic trolls the entire NWO playerbase: 9200 GS listed for CN, implying anyone who needs more has no skill.
Never is a very strong word
With my spec, I did the following test:
Chilling Cloud
Chilling Cloud
Chilling Cloud
Magic Missile
1x Target
2x Target
3x Target
1x Target
Base 1st hit
491
0
0
618
Base Full Rnd
2583
3955
5327
3057
5x Arcane Mastery (15%)
2583
3955
5327
3516
Arcane Enhancement (6%)
2583
3955
5327
3726
Blighting Power (9%)
2815
4311
5806
3726
Bitter Cold (5%)
2956
4526
6097
3726
Froz. Pow Trans (5%/perT)
3104
4979
7011
3726
Chilling Presence (18%)
3663
5875
8273
3726
Since then, MM is "never" slotted on my bar. I started putting Storm Pillar to charge AP during down time, or Ray for PvP utility.
Ray of Frost is really underrated. The base damage is fairly poor, but people forget that abilities like Storm Spell and Eye of the Storm proc easily off of its fast ticks, it excels at quickly applying and maintaining stacks of Plaguefire, and its power and utility can be enhanced by certain feats. Sometimes what the community believes to be common sense doesn't actually make sense.
Also, if you do not have RoE in a slot, you're doing it wrong. What benefits RoE? AM stacks from MM. Paragon path doesn't matter, if RoE is not on your bar, you're DOING. IT. WRONG.
Why, might you ask? Because it's the only baseline mitigation debuff that the CW gets no matter which path they choose. If you are not using your mitigation debuff, you are terrible, and should feel terrible.
In some situations I would agree, and I think every wizard should invest points in it, but even RoE is not an "always on" power choice. It's also not the only or even the best mitigation debuff if you are a Thaumaturge. I actually never use RoE for dungeon trash, only swapping it in when I'm needed to focus fire. I'm usually running Conduit of Ice in Tab slot for AoE -15% mitigation and Chill stack building, anyway, so stacking RoE for fighting trash is just plain unnecessary and is wasting a slot that could be used to increase the team's survivability or AoE damage.
Here's a question, anyone done any testing on which at will gets more Storm Spell hits, MM, RoF or Chilling Cloud? I was doing some testing on dummies the other day and it seems like MM wins over Chilling Cloud ,however, bad as the base damage is I do like CCs minor AoE on it's third hit and after stacking chill while building up my daily Ice Knife has a tendency to hit about 10K harder. (Sometimes. I don't have the exact science of it down just yet)
There is something wrong with you. You argue that I should not be telling people to avoid a pure frost CW, and yet your own CW is not a pure frost CW. So how could you possibly know whether or not a pure frost cw works?
Me, my argument is based on fact and logic. You can't put a fourth frost encounter power in your bar because there are only three frost encounter powers in the game worth taking for PvE. Pure frost CWs don't work, they shouldn't even exist. You call yourself an experienced CW when you're telling people they should play a CW that should not cast Arcane Singularity? Or Steal Time? Or Shield/Repel?
Bottomline, you need to pick arcane powers and that's where arcane mastery comes in.
I have no idea where this turned into using "Frost Spells" only?! The OP asked a very simple question about the use of MM. Where did I tell people to use Pure frost spell build?! Where did I say you shouldnt be using Arcane Singularity/Steal Time/Shield/Repel?!? You are derailing this thread into oblivion lol.
Also, if you do not have RoE in a slot, you're doing it wrong. What benefits RoE? AM stacks from MM. Paragon path doesn't matter, if RoE is not on your bar, you're DOING. IT. WRONG.
Why, might you ask? Because it's the only baseline mitigation debuff that the CW gets no matter which path they choose. If you are not using your mitigation debuff, you are terrible, and should feel terrible.
LOL RoE is arguably the WORST mitigation debuff a CW has. Sure if it is the only one you got then use it. But with Assailing Force, Elemental Empowerment, High Vizier set bonus, Plague fire, all doing AoE debuf rather than single target, there is no way you can convince me I am doing it wrong.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
But RoE still a good single target spell, better than icy rays.
BTW, how to evade a chill stacks bug, when multiple CW strikes one target? Sometimes chill get stuck on numbers below 6 or don't stack at all.
RoE is the Arcane Singularity of PvP. Although I understand some people are only interested in a PvE CW.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
You do know that any AoE Power by default also works on Single Target :P Like I said, if it is your ONLY way to debuff a target, then of course it is useful.
I assumed if you had Assailing Force you'd be using it in the spell mastery slot for most things. I'm gonna try something very similar to your build when I get off work this morning. Been curious about the Thaum tree for a while now, having been renegade for leveling and all my t2 stuff.
How is the AP gain on a bunch of chilled stuffed hit with icy terrain vs EF tabbed on the same group?
I assumed if you had Assailing Force you'd be using it in the spell mastery slot for most things. I'm gonna try something very similar to your build when I get off work this morning. Been curious about the Thaum tree for a while now, having been renegade for leveling and all my t2 stuff.
How is the AP gain on a bunch of chilled stuffed hit with icy terrain vs EF tabbed on the same group?
With enough adds, AP gain is good. In situations where you need constant refill, you can always EF Tab, then it is not even an issue.
Also, if you do not have RoE in a slot, you're doing it wrong. What benefits RoE? AM stacks from MM. Paragon path doesn't matter, if RoE is not on your bar, you're DOING. IT. WRONG.
Please be careful about making statements like this some truly believe this is the only way to play. I was in a party with a CW today doing Epic Pirate. The CW just kept using RoE and MM and singularity every 5 mins. We got to the last boss, I kept using Singularity whenever I my AP was full and this other CW that was supposed to be helping control the adds just keeps using Ice Knife on the boss while he/she is surrounded by mobs. He/she even dared to say he'll tank the boss. LOL He died a few seconds later. I have nothing against CWs that want to be top DPS but I normally see them just spamming MM and using RoE and nothing else. They don't even bother switching spells depending on what's needed. Sadly, I blocked that CW. I don't want to party someone like that again.
Also, if you do not have RoE in a slot, you're doing it wrong. What benefits RoE? AM stacks from MM. Paragon path doesn't matter, if RoE is not on your bar, you're DOING. IT. WRONG.
Why, might you ask? Because it's the only baseline mitigation debuff that the CW gets no matter which path they choose. If you are not using your mitigation debuff, you are terrible, and should feel terrible.
You are clueless.
There are many encounter bars that may work as well as some others, but having any single target encounters slotted when not fighting a boss is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
I mainly use 2 setups now, TAB: entangle/chill strike, Regulars: shard, COI/SS, steal time.
Passives: eye of the storm and evocation.
At wills: chilling cloud for multiple targets, missiles for single.
Still not sure if chill strike is a better tab than entangle. The fast AP gain of entangle lets me drop Oppressive Force much more often and as a Vizier that particular daily is deadly. It also bunches up targets for better AOE.
0
jeffmwillsonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 116Arc User
edited September 2013
One Feat to describe why I don't use MM... Frozen Power Transfer.... surprised to hear all the people rip on CW's that 'don't know how to CW if they don't use MM' there are other ways to build arcane stacks. and FPT adds more damage to encounters.. which is where your DPS should come from.
MM in pvp when they are fleeing. Ice beam is good for stacking chill- so what do you do when in a situation where your target is immune? For instance when fighting against a GWF and they use the determination ability- arcane damage will still whittle them down especially when you can double tap ray of enfeeblement :cool:
i use RoE in mastery slot and keep ice knife up... when GWF, around 50% health,go turbo(determination) i am able to kill them outright or get them to be killed before they can use determination again- if i double tap RoE. Also touble tap RoE on say a TR and ice knife on a DC get them down to an easy kill
Any CW not using MM, with all due respect, has not figured out how to play one yet. There isn't ANY at-will that comes close to it.
Storm Pillar - forcing your CW to stand in one place to charge a spell that does LESS damage is ridiculous.
Chilling Cloud - Originally I thought it was OK, but after testing it often, I found that the third strike is TOTALLY not worth the less of DPS.
Ray of Frost - Your ONLY other option, and it should really only be used in PvE to CC if everything else is on cooldown. In PvP it is sometimes used.
Honestly I don't care if you build a CW for "control" or not. Regardless, MM should STILL be your main At-will. I run T2 and for the most part Chill Strike and Steal Time provide enough CC on any run. There IS such a thing as too much CC and it is up to a CW to figure out where that line is based on their own personal skills. The content as it stands right now does NOT need ANY sort of extreme CCing.
so i'm a little confused here. in this post, you detail that you think that any CW that isn't using MM as their main at will doesn't know what they're doing, and yet your guide and subsequent posts on this thread recommend using Chilling Cloud as a superior at will. Care to explain?
0
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
so i'm a little confused here. in this post, you detail that you think that any CW that isn't using MM as their main at will doesn't know what they're doing, and yet your guide and subsequent posts on this thread recommend using Chilling Cloud as a superior at will. Care to explain?
LOL, holy mother of Necro posts!
Good advice is to not read any posts/specs/guides that are more than 2 months or even 1 month old or take them in context of the current state of the game. My CW was my first 60. I leveled him as Renegade and spent quite a few hours at 60 as one. I thought then I knew what I was talking about. As you can see, based on the spec in my Signature, my views about the class changed drastically.
Do any of you guys use chilling presence + arcane presence?
I would like to revive this topic to debate builds made over MM and arcane presence and, moreover, that combine chilling presence + arcane presence, not relaying only on Storm Spell or EoTS.
Comments
You can repeat all you want, it wont make your argument any stronger. You really have a narrow view of CWs. You should not be giving anyone advice on what to slot without even knowing what their spec is. With mine for example, I don't even worry about Arcane Mastery. I would not even put points in Arcane Presence let alont slot it with my setup. I would never switch an HV set for the Archmage. You really should experiment with all aspects of the class before telling people there is only "this" way to play a CW. You are asking what to put in the 4th slot? seriously? As if there is nothing that is worth slotting except Chill Strike? Again, with my setup, I hardly ever even have Chill Strike slotted, except for a boss to put extra debuff from proccing HV set. 80% of the time, I have CoI on Tab, Icy Terrain, Steal Timer, and Shield, and there isnt any trash pull, no matter how big, I couldnt handle with this setup. Is it the only way? of course not.
Wow, not even close to double. At least, not double Ray of Frost.
In PVP I find myself using Ray of Frost a LOT. MM doesn't do much more damage, Ray of Frost procs storm spell more often and builds AP faster in my experience, while doing almost as much damage as MM and freezing my target relatively quickly.
For PVE? Yeah always MM.
Me, my argument is based on fact and logic. You can't put a fourth frost encounter power in your bar because there are only three frost encounter powers in the game worth taking for PvE. Pure frost CWs don't work, they shouldn't even exist. You call yourself an experienced CW when you're telling people they should play a CW that should not cast Arcane Singularity? Or Steal Time? Or Shield/Repel?
Bottomline, you need to pick arcane powers and that's where arcane mastery comes in.
Why, might you ask? Because it's the only baseline mitigation debuff that the CW gets no matter which path they choose. If you are not using your mitigation debuff, you are terrible, and should feel terrible.
Ray of Frost is really underrated. The base damage is fairly poor, but people forget that abilities like Storm Spell and Eye of the Storm proc easily off of its fast ticks, it excels at quickly applying and maintaining stacks of Plaguefire, and its power and utility can be enhanced by certain feats. Sometimes what the community believes to be common sense doesn't actually make sense.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
In some situations I would agree, and I think every wizard should invest points in it, but even RoE is not an "always on" power choice. It's also not the only or even the best mitigation debuff if you are a Thaumaturge. I actually never use RoE for dungeon trash, only swapping it in when I'm needed to focus fire. I'm usually running Conduit of Ice in Tab slot for AoE -15% mitigation and Chill stack building, anyway, so stacking RoE for fighting trash is just plain unnecessary and is wasting a slot that could be used to increase the team's survivability or AoE damage.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I have no idea where this turned into using "Frost Spells" only?! The OP asked a very simple question about the use of MM. Where did I tell people to use Pure frost spell build?! Where did I say you shouldnt be using Arcane Singularity/Steal Time/Shield/Repel?!? You are derailing this thread into oblivion lol.
LOL RoE is arguably the WORST mitigation debuff a CW has. Sure if it is the only one you got then use it. But with Assailing Force, Elemental Empowerment, High Vizier set bonus, Plague fire, all doing AoE debuf rather than single target, there is no way you can convince me I am doing it wrong.
BTW, how to evade a chill stacks bug, when multiple CW strikes one target? Sometimes chill get stuck on numbers below 6 or don't stack at all.
CoI on tab doesnt debuff. It's the Assailing Force feat that adds the debuff, and it affects every target it hits whether CoI is on Tab or not.
How is the AP gain on a bunch of chilled stuffed hit with icy terrain vs EF tabbed on the same group?
Tab: CoI
Encounters: shield, steal time, icy terrain
passives: Chillling presence, storm spell
Dailies: oppressive force / singularity
at-will: chilling cloud, storm pillar (for ap charge)
set: High Vizier
It's hard to tell but i'm pretty sure i've improved my dps with this build compared to my previous MM build (also thaumathurge)
With enough adds, AP gain is good. In situations where you need constant refill, you can always EF Tab, then it is not even an issue.
Please be careful about making statements like this some truly believe this is the only way to play. I was in a party with a CW today doing Epic Pirate. The CW just kept using RoE and MM and singularity every 5 mins. We got to the last boss, I kept using Singularity whenever I my AP was full and this other CW that was supposed to be helping control the adds just keeps using Ice Knife on the boss while he/she is surrounded by mobs. He/she even dared to say he'll tank the boss. LOL He died a few seconds later. I have nothing against CWs that want to be top DPS but I normally see them just spamming MM and using RoE and nothing else. They don't even bother switching spells depending on what's needed.
You are clueless.
There are many encounter bars that may work as well as some others, but having any single target encounters slotted when not fighting a boss is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
I mainly use 2 setups now, TAB: entangle/chill strike, Regulars: shard, COI/SS, steal time.
Passives: eye of the storm and evocation.
At wills: chilling cloud for multiple targets, missiles for single.
Still not sure if chill strike is a better tab than entangle. The fast AP gain of entangle lets me drop Oppressive Force much more often and as a Vizier that particular daily is deadly. It also bunches up targets for better AOE.
Chilling is an AOE, and gives a +5 damage boost PER target hit to the rest of your abilities.
Not sure why people are arguing any other way:
1) MM more single target
2) Chilling more AOE
Period.
so i'm a little confused here. in this post, you detail that you think that any CW that isn't using MM as their main at will doesn't know what they're doing, and yet your guide and subsequent posts on this thread recommend using Chilling Cloud as a superior at will. Care to explain?
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
LOL, holy mother of Necro posts!
Good advice is to not read any posts/specs/guides that are more than 2 months or even 1 month old or take them in context of the current state of the game. My CW was my first 60. I leveled him as Renegade and spent quite a few hours at 60 as one. I thought then I knew what I was talking about. As you can see, based on the spec in my Signature, my views about the class changed drastically.
I would like to revive this topic to debate builds made over MM and arcane presence and, moreover, that combine chilling presence + arcane presence, not relaying only on Storm Spell or EoTS.