As a paying customer i can take a wipe if they refund me the money I've invested already or at least the Z . Also some sort of compensation for the whole loss of level and gear. Ill keep playing the game even if a wipe is enforced just make it fair for the ppl that are clean !
You are pretty much completely wrong in your assessment. The hackers will have long-since laundered their ill-gotten gains to other accounts. No matter how hard the ban-hammering is, a good chunk of that AD will persist in the economy. Without the wipe, they will start new accounts and the currency/gear will find it's way back to them, probably within minutes of the servers being back up. The forensics on following all of the currency to the last AD would probably take weeks if not months so let's assume Cryptic will simply do a hand-wave, a few public bannings, and say everything is okay. But it won't be.
A wipe clears the decks. But since that's not happening, how about a new server where those of us who have no faith in the current server economies can go to at least get one more shot at a fair start. If they mess up again, it won't really matter at that point because most of us will simply move on to another game.
Hand waving a few bans would have taken less than an hour. What they're doing is seeing where that currency is being laundered off too for the banning. That currency isn't going to come back to the cheaters especially since many of them aren't "professional hackers" or anything of the sort. 99% of them didn't know this exploit even existed until it was leaked on the forums. Most were people who would never have come up with the means of figuring it out for themselves and aren't even remotely as clever. As for the ones who originally discovered it? A full wipe would only delay them before they discover a new exploit. A "New server" won't help either.
They have many tools and data to find out where that currency is going and why. This isn't the same as a real life crime being committed. This is a modern day mmo. If they negated my time and started me off from scratch after how much time I've put into the game. I and many others will simply move onto another game.
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clockwerkninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
No wipe will mean PWE/Cryptic chose to side with exploiters and allow the paying customers who stay legit to suffer for it.. I will be taking my insane spending habits out the door with me.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
No wipe will mean PWE/Cryptic chose to side with exploiters and allow the paying customers who stay legit to suffer for it.. I will be taking my insane spending habits out the door with me.
No wipe means PWE/Cryptic won't be choosing to side with the exploiters. I'll personally continue my insane spending habits and will continue to put many more hours into the game. I am glad that I am not being punished for the actions of exploiters and starting over on equal footing with them via a character wipe.
Hand waving a few bans would have taken less than an hour. What they're doing is seeing where that currency is being laundered off too for the banning. That currency isn't going to come back to the cheaters especially since many of them aren't "professional hackers" or anything of the sort. 99% of them didn't know this exploit even existed until it was leaked on the forums. Most were people who would never have come up with the means of figuring it out for themselves and aren't even remotely as clever. As for the ones who originally discovered it? A full wipe would only delay them before they discover a new exploit. A "New server" won't help either.
They have many tools and data to find out where that currency is going and why. This isn't the same as a real life crime being committed. This is a modern day mmo.
I wish and hope you are correct. But the fact pattern here includes multiple stories that this bug existed in at least one previous PW game and was reported many times during CB and yet still wasn't fixed. So your faith in this team as a 'modern day mmo' is hard for me to match.
So one use case I saw mentioned elsewhere. What if you listed an item (fairly obtained) on the AH for an unusually high-buyout. Nothing sinister there, but with the AD bug, all these items were reportedly snatched up. Now they have to figure out if you were complicit in the laundering or not. Multiply that by every auction on all three servers. Then look at all trades and mails. Then consider that this is the same dev team that allowed several serious exploits into the game in the first place.
Maybe I'm too cynical but I think a wipe would at least give them one more chance to get things right whereas I have no faith that they can unwind this problem with anything less. But I guess we'll get to find out
As someone who participated in the AH exploit to see how Cyrptic would react I am glad to see that my account was perma banned and no one else will suffer. I will be starting a new account and I will keep on playing and enjoying the game.
I wish and hope you are correct. But the fact pattern here includes multiple stories that this bug existed in at least one previous PW game and was reported many times during CB and yet still wasn't fixed. So your faith in this team as a 'modern day mmo' is hard for me to match.
So one use case I saw mentioned elsewhere. What if you listed an item (fairly obtained) on the AH for an unusually high-buyout. Nothing sinister there, but with the AD bug, all these items were reportedly snatched up. Now they have to figure out if you were complicit in the laundering or not. Multiply that by every auction on all three servers. Then look at all trades and mails. Then consider that this is the same dev team that allowed several serious exploits into the game in the first place.
Maybe I'm too cynical but I think a wipe would at least give them one more chance to get things right whereas I have no faith that they can unwind this problem with anything less. But I guess we'll get to find out
Simple solution actually. Usually if you launder money you're going to have mutliple accounts to do it with. Most of these counts are not even going to be level 60. I personally doubt they'd have leveled 20 or more characters to 60. I'd also doubt that each character is only going to buy one high priced item. The story you mentioned above shows this "They took awhile to even do something about it." The problem is that the issue existed for a long period of time before something was done. This bloomed today and immediately something was done. There is the likely-hood the problem existed and people have been doing this for a long time but then there's the possibility there's other hidden exploits that people have been abusing and maybe still are. A wipe may fix that it may not.
What I do know is that they can at least fix it to the point where today never happened. So the economy will be no better or worse than it was today or a few days ago. (Which I don't think is that bad). The greatest offenders will be caught. The most clever of them might get away with "some of it." but I think mostly the problem will be fixed. If they did a character wipe I'll tell you this. Every single one of us who play legitimately are effected. Some of us don't have long hours to play and even some of us who did have put obscene hours into the game already.
Which will be negated. In this case we and the exploiters will be put at the same level and at the same square. I don't like this one bit. I don't want to be punished for their actions. I want them to be punished for it. As for the above.. it's not hard to trace the accounts to which are hoarding quite a few high cost goods. A player that grabs "one" high priced item sold by these exploiters will likely have nothing suspicious flagging their account. Normal play time, normal dungeon/quests runs, nothing flagging him as suspicious or botting. Most of these accounts for laundering items will also likely be bot run.
Well my preference was for a new server to be opened without wiping the old so everyone effectively gets their preferred choice. But sounds like that's not 'on the table' either. I'll most likely continue playing casually but I would be surprised if I spend any real cash on this game at this point. And I have maintained subscriptions for 1-2 games almost continually since EQ first opened and spend equivalent amounts on at least 2 FTP games so I'm not averse to the spend, I just don't trust this game enough right now.
Well my preference was for a new server to be opened without wiping the old so everyone effectively gets their preferred choice. But sounds like that's not 'on the table' either. I'll most likely continue playing casually but I would be surprised if I spend any real cash on this game at this point. And I have maintained subscriptions for 1-2 games almost continually since EQ first opened and spend equivalent amounts on at least 2 FTP games so I'm not averse to the spend, I just don't trust this game enough right now.
Understandable request and equally understandable reaction. As for me I do find this issue alarming. Even though I "got my way" in that there was no wipe. That it happened is jarring and has raised quite a few questions. I am interested in how their fix will play out and I am glad they decided to take more time to fix this issue. When originally they stated the servers will be back up in an hour I was alarmed them too. An hour isn't nearly long enough to fix this problem but recently they stated the servers will be back up in the coming "hours." This is good. They shouldn't rush and take as much time as possible to work on this. Which is mainly why I'm against a wipe. If needed they can spend days to sort this out and I'd rather them dig as much as they can to make sure it doesn't happen again and that these exploiters do not return.
I agree about taking their time and trying to get it as right as they can.
You know...we were on completely opposite sides of this issue, and yet managed to have a civil and constructive dialog about it. This might just be an internet first. There ought to be a holiday or something named after this...
I honestly wont be happy about a wipe. However I feel that If Cryptic/PWE feel it is necessary to stabilize the economy I will support it. In my opinion this is only beta I expected a full wipe at the end anyways up until about a week ago. I feel it is silly to whine about a mid-beta wipe. Oh, and Why the heck would you even-assume they would not discount the Zen? Every free game (That I know of) discounts cash shop currency after a wipe.
I agree about taking their time and trying to get it as right as they can.
You know...we were on completely opposite sides of this issue, and yet managed to have a civil and constructive dialog about it. This might just be an internet first. There ought to be a holiday or something named after this...
Lol, that's very true. That's what makes me feel sorry for cryptic in this situation. Two sides with valid views. No matter what they pick they're going to upset one. Both sides disagree with the other's proposition. But in the end I try to be civil because we're all gamers and both want to enjoy the game.
Maybe two shards. One called Exploitation (where we all reside now) and the new one called Neverwinter .9 where we can all build new players from scratch.
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jmanc82Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
The game was exploited and the economy is dead.... NO WAY AROUND IT as new people will always feel cheated once they find out what happened. A wipe will only hurt the people before launch and will correct the economy so in reality it will not "hurt" anyone. I'm also in favor of a full wipe to save this game.
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tredoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Not at all Ro, you miss the real issue, for the sake of the game they can not do a wipe. If you wipe they will LOSE their customers who paid, and the free guys will stick around. With no money a game can not continue, so you have this backwards, a wipe will kill the game, not wiping will save it.
You are so wrong, I have the Founders Pack, it came with AD, at the time I purchased the FP, the AD in it was worth way more than it is now! So by not doing a full wipe, I will be asking for my money back in a charge back through my bank for fraud due to devalue of the product I was promised!
The paying customers are the ones loosing money here, not the free playing exploiters that are way smarter and have covered their tracks and may get one of their accounts banned, but they will still be in the game with their mules toons or secondary accounts or whatever.
Comments
Hand waving a few bans would have taken less than an hour. What they're doing is seeing where that currency is being laundered off too for the banning. That currency isn't going to come back to the cheaters especially since many of them aren't "professional hackers" or anything of the sort. 99% of them didn't know this exploit even existed until it was leaked on the forums. Most were people who would never have come up with the means of figuring it out for themselves and aren't even remotely as clever. As for the ones who originally discovered it? A full wipe would only delay them before they discover a new exploit. A "New server" won't help either.
They have many tools and data to find out where that currency is going and why. This isn't the same as a real life crime being committed. This is a modern day mmo. If they negated my time and started me off from scratch after how much time I've put into the game. I and many others will simply move onto another game.
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
Every time I almost pull the trigger there is some goffiness like this.
No wipe means PWE/Cryptic won't be choosing to side with the exploiters. I'll personally continue my insane spending habits and will continue to put many more hours into the game. I am glad that I am not being punished for the actions of exploiters and starting over on equal footing with them via a character wipe.
I wish and hope you are correct. But the fact pattern here includes multiple stories that this bug existed in at least one previous PW game and was reported many times during CB and yet still wasn't fixed. So your faith in this team as a 'modern day mmo' is hard for me to match.
So one use case I saw mentioned elsewhere. What if you listed an item (fairly obtained) on the AH for an unusually high-buyout. Nothing sinister there, but with the AD bug, all these items were reportedly snatched up. Now they have to figure out if you were complicit in the laundering or not. Multiply that by every auction on all three servers. Then look at all trades and mails. Then consider that this is the same dev team that allowed several serious exploits into the game in the first place.
Maybe I'm too cynical but I think a wipe would at least give them one more chance to get things right whereas I have no faith that they can unwind this problem with anything less. But I guess we'll get to find out
Simple solution actually. Usually if you launder money you're going to have mutliple accounts to do it with. Most of these counts are not even going to be level 60. I personally doubt they'd have leveled 20 or more characters to 60. I'd also doubt that each character is only going to buy one high priced item. The story you mentioned above shows this "They took awhile to even do something about it." The problem is that the issue existed for a long period of time before something was done. This bloomed today and immediately something was done. There is the likely-hood the problem existed and people have been doing this for a long time but then there's the possibility there's other hidden exploits that people have been abusing and maybe still are. A wipe may fix that it may not.
What I do know is that they can at least fix it to the point where today never happened. So the economy will be no better or worse than it was today or a few days ago. (Which I don't think is that bad). The greatest offenders will be caught. The most clever of them might get away with "some of it." but I think mostly the problem will be fixed. If they did a character wipe I'll tell you this. Every single one of us who play legitimately are effected. Some of us don't have long hours to play and even some of us who did have put obscene hours into the game already.
Which will be negated. In this case we and the exploiters will be put at the same level and at the same square. I don't like this one bit. I don't want to be punished for their actions. I want them to be punished for it. As for the above.. it's not hard to trace the accounts to which are hoarding quite a few high cost goods. A player that grabs "one" high priced item sold by these exploiters will likely have nothing suspicious flagging their account. Normal play time, normal dungeon/quests runs, nothing flagging him as suspicious or botting. Most of these accounts for laundering items will also likely be bot run.
Understandable request and equally understandable reaction. As for me I do find this issue alarming. Even though I "got my way" in that there was no wipe. That it happened is jarring and has raised quite a few questions. I am interested in how their fix will play out and I am glad they decided to take more time to fix this issue. When originally they stated the servers will be back up in an hour I was alarmed them too. An hour isn't nearly long enough to fix this problem but recently they stated the servers will be back up in the coming "hours." This is good. They shouldn't rush and take as much time as possible to work on this. Which is mainly why I'm against a wipe. If needed they can spend days to sort this out and I'd rather them dig as much as they can to make sure it doesn't happen again and that these exploiters do not return.
You know...we were on completely opposite sides of this issue, and yet managed to have a civil and constructive dialog about it. This might just be an internet first. There ought to be a holiday or something named after this...
Lol, that's very true. That's what makes me feel sorry for cryptic in this situation. Two sides with valid views. No matter what they pick they're going to upset one. Both sides disagree with the other's proposition. But in the end I try to be civil because we're all gamers and both want to enjoy the game.
You are so wrong, I have the Founders Pack, it came with AD, at the time I purchased the FP, the AD in it was worth way more than it is now! So by not doing a full wipe, I will be asking for my money back in a charge back through my bank for fraud due to devalue of the product I was promised!
The paying customers are the ones loosing money here, not the free playing exploiters that are way smarter and have covered their tracks and may get one of their accounts banned, but they will still be in the game with their mules toons or secondary accounts or whatever.
Full wipe = game fix!