To me the looting of this game provides some interesting problems. It had always been in other MMO's in the past for instances (raids are a different beast all together), greed/pass on anything you either can't use or plan to vendor and need only on items you can/will use for the character you're playing in the specific instance (ie if you're playing a CW, don't go need rolling on an item for a TR).
What's interesting is since I've been playing here, I've adopted the roll how the other group members are rolling unless I need it for my toon that I'm playing at that moment.
For example, one pass through an instance (pug group), everyone was greed/passing on all items unless a given member actually needed the item and they would roll need - so I followed the same pattern. Another instance run (pug group) most of us were greed/passing the items except for one person that need rolled on EVERYTHING. It got to the point that since that person was needing everything that the rest of us started to do the same just so we could get some loot - the person wouldn't even respond when asked why they were needing on everything (even items that are obviously good and/or upgrades for other group members, the player also seemed to get frequent high rolls, but he/she may have just been lucky with the RNG).
Personally, I look forward to getting my toon into a guild and running with a a group where the loot rules are clear to everyone (even if you try to be clear about them in a pug, there seems to be always one or two that will go against the rules all agreed to).
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daeanorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited May 2013
I'm at the point where I pass on everything that isn't wearable and blue. My bags get full enough as it is. But they ought to make it impossible to roll Need on something you cannot equip. It's fine, IMO, rolling need on an unidentified piece if its at least equip-able, but I have seen far too many people roll Need on *everything* just to make sure they win. Challenge them, and they say, "I 'need' the gold." And that is just BS, and the very definition of greed. I say lock need rolls out in the game mechanics for unequip-able stuff.
If it's something I can equip I need it, if it's something I can't I pass.
Though I admit I usually don't pay attention as to whether something is class specific. only if it's green or red. Green is need red is pass.
But I very rarely collect stuff to auction off on the AH only time I do is if I happen to get a drop that's a duplicate of something I already have, and the other stuff, I try on to see how it effects my GR etc. then vendor it for copper to buy potions/injury kits if it's not better than what i already have.
your running through a dungeon trying to stay alive, and your screen fills up with windows with things you have to make decisions on without the time to do so, you have limited space in your inventory etc etc........ not very conducive for enjoyment/immersion in the excitement, i'm not the fastest typist in the world at the best of times lol , so if there is time i just shift+3 on everything, i might roll need on an enchantment or crafting component, and try hard to keep my potion slot #3 empty cause i often accidently use a potion instead of passing on the item, very awkward, also i feel that no matter how much loot i sell from mob drops it will never afford me decent gear thus i dont see the point in wasting time on it, mainly i just watch who does what so i know if they are worth partying with again or avoiding them *shrugs*
also i am a D&D player from way back, and to me a wizzard that cant learn an identify spell is not a wizzard at all, it just makes no sense, merchants should be able to id your items for you at the very least if wizzards cant, how can a fighter have the skill/lore required to read and use magic scrolls? thats not right either
your running through a dungeon trying to stay alive, and your screen fills up with windows with things you have to make decisions on without the time to do so, you have limited space in your inventory etc etc........ not very conducive for enjoyment/immersion in the excitement, i'm not the fastest typist in the world at the best of times lol , so if there is time i just shift+3 on everything, i might roll need on an enchantment or crafting component, and try hard to keep my potion slot #3 empty cause i often accidently use a potion instead of passing on the item, very awkward, also i feel that no matter how much loot i sell from mob drops it will never afford me decent gear thus i dont see the point in wasting time on it, mainly i just watch who does what so i know if they are worth partying with again or avoiding them *shrugs*
also i am a D&D player from way back, and to me a wizzard that cant learn an identify spell is not a wizzard at all, it just makes no sense, merchants should be able to id your items for you at the very least if wizzards cant, how can a fighter have the skill/lore required to read and use magic scrolls? thats not right either
Just make the default need / greed system so that if it is usable by your class you can need on it. If it is not, then your only options are greed / pass.
This only makes me question how a system like this would work.
Suppose you have a standard five member party. Three of them roll need. The other two roll greed.
Now, under this new system, what happens? Are the two greeds simply excluded from the roll altogether? Or do the needs get a significant bonus to their die roll (allowing a greeder to potentially win out over a needer anyway)?
It seems to me that when a drop comes up that's not usable by your class, you shouldn't be prompted to roll on it at all.
"Over the course of my many years I have learned one thing: I don't know anything, I only think I do. And I'm not even sure about that." -- Rasgard the Wise
your running through a dungeon trying to stay alive, and your screen fills up with windows with things you have to make decisions on without the time to do so
On a side note, in the HUD options the area where those roll requests show up can be changed. It's fairly intrusive when they pop up in the middle of the screen while you are trying to fight.
The wizard here is a 4th Edition wizard. Can they ID?
On a side note, in the HUD options the area where those roll requests show up can be changed. It's fairly intrusive when they pop up in the middle of the screen while you are trying to fight.
The wizard here is a 4th Edition wizard. Can they ID?
Wait for first green universal class drop, see how they roll, follow suit.
Wait for first green/blue specific class drop, if only one of my class in the group and someone needs on it, or all do, refuse to continue dealing damage, healing or controlling mobs. Wait for kick and or party to disband. Laugh repeatedly as they try and continue past boss barrier without kicking me or at bad justifications while looking at pictures of cats online, await realization that it's their own time they're wasting now and "time is money, hurhurhur"
Also, WTB a misdirection/tricks of the trade-esque skill to repeatedly get extra aggro for greedy fools in dungeons and make sure they die. Though as I main a healer, it's usually fun to just not heal them and instead make sure you keep everyone else alive, tough but fun.
0
pugpug1953Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Ya this is a major problem . Tired of selfish people rolling need on items they can't use . Just today was in a dungeon and a wiz robe dropped and a tank won it on a need roll. I gave him a whisper as to maybe this was a mistake roll with all the action going on . His answer was I have a wiz so I can use it . Really dude your playing a tank . Now I could have used that robe , Right now on my wiz. I also have an alt and I DID NOT roll need on any rogue items at all !
In another game I play you can't even see the item unless your the class that can use it .
That works and keeps all the selfish people at bay.
I DO NOT mind if I roll against another wiz and lose . I am not a sore loser I do however have an issue if a tank wins my wiz robe.
I know they are trying to fix things in game ASAP and I thank them for the PVP AFK issue being addressed .
This need or greed issue needs to fixed ASAP also . My ignore and my DO NOT GROUP list is becoming to long.
Please guys if you can not use an item Please do not roll need . It is simple . If you are on a toon that can use it then NEED IT
IF you are on a toon that cannot use it then GREED IT
If you do not give a dang about the item then PASS .
Very simple concept . IF you cant understand this maybe there are smarter people in your guild that can explain it to you .
For me, I think the main problem is that the game allows you to need on everything. With a large chunk of people not speaking English at all, or not having it as their 1st language, they simply don't understand. You do, of course, also have people who do understand and who roll need for their own reasons. With the game allowing anyone to need on anything (which seems to be by design, rather than a bug) you will always get needers in a PUG. So, in essence, everybody needing on everything = working as intended. I do hope this changes.
As it stands, the best way to run dungeons is to only ever party with people you know. So - get your 4 other friends together, ensure they are all different classes but the same level, and off you go!
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cichardMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Here is what I do while leveling for greens... If its for my class and is higher level then what i am wearing i need it for the chance for an upgrade. If its not for my glass i greed it for selling. All enchantments roll Need on because everyone else is. Blue gear for my class i take the time to see if its an upgrade before rolling need or greed.
Now at 60 I Need on every Enchantment Pass on every green and ofc when epics drop i take the time to see if its an upgrade before i need.
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am0nr3xMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
PS:Why do we have unidentified items anyway?There is no Lore, so we cant identify it for ourslef/party members.We also cant equip unidentified items anyway.And there are NO cursed/-stats equipment when we would need to find the priest to get rid of it.Its a just excuse to sqeeze the few more drops of AD from a players...
This question is easy to answer.
because money
That's the answer. It's a potential AD sink if you buy enough scrolls to ID everything, helps mitigate an influx of gold if you don't (which appears to have no real use, except that if you run low on cash to buy pots/kits/etc., you will result to spending ADs to buy the stuff) and ultimately try to force you into spending real cash.
because money
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kerlaaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I pass an all none class related items.
Greed on an item that I can use of equal or higher lvl (none class related items) then my current gear & enchant stones.
Need anything that is class related to my class of a higher lvl then current gear set.
Just a heads-up: we're actively looking into different ways to improve the party loot system. No concrete plans have been determined as of yet, but it's definitely something we've identified as actionable feedback and hope to have more info to share on this soon. Thanks!
I stopped reading the thread after this page, so I apologize if someone else already says the same thing as I am about to say:
What's wrong with making the item being rolled on visible and comparable until it's looted so all players can see if they actually need it? Once it goes in inventory, it becomes unknown until identified. Not that I'm privy to the code, but being a programmer I know this has to be a viable option. Seems to me it would also satisfy Occam's razor .
Also as far as some tweaks to the system overall:
It should be default that if the party leader chooses the need/greed loot option, that only if the class is present in the dungeon are they allowed to need roll on it at all, if that class is not present then everyone would only be able to greed roll on it. Examples:
Scenario 1) A wizard orb drops and there is a CW present, so he is the only one who gets the option to need roll, everyone else can either greed or pass. That way if the cw doesn't need it, people can greed roll, otherwise he will automatically get it.
Scenario 2) A wizard orb drops, now there are 2 CW's in the party (this one should be obvious, right), they are the only two who have the option of need rolling, everyone else may greed or pass.
Scenario 3)A wizard orb drops and there is no CW to roll on it, everyone is only given the option to greed roll it.
It defies any sort of logic for a class to be able to "need" something he can't wear, right?
I still think giving everyone their own drops is better. Of course for bosses, getting a blue wouldn't be certain, but at least a green so everyone at least gets something.
This is what's wrong with America... everyone is a winner, yay (until you venture into the real world, and find out sometimes even if you win you lose)! I think this would be a great idea for a Disney themed mmo, maybe.
This is what's wrong with America... everyone is a winner, yay (until you venture into the real world, and find out sometimes even if you win you lose)! I think this would be a great idea for a Disney themed mmo, maybe.
LOL. Because all games should mirror the real world.
"That's right folks, now healing magic will take weeks to have effect. Injuries will take months if not years to heal and your character depending on age, will now require several hours sleep and run on an energy system"
LOL. Because all games should mirror the real world.
"That's right folks, now healing magic will take weeks to have effect. Injuries will take months if not years to heal and your character depending on age, will now require several hours sleep and run on an energy system"
You are a very literal reader aren't you ? Go venture forth in this real world of yours and acquire some levity, sadly if you can't find it or unable to equip it... you can't buy it at the local store.
You are a very literal reader aren't you ? Go venture forth in this real world of yours and acquire some levity, sadly if you can't find it or unable to equip it... you can't buy it at the local store.
If you meant it as a joke, why take offense when I get in on said joke?
Your humour unit appears to be broken human, report to the nearest repair facility for evaluation and service.
If you meant it as a joke, why take offense when I get in on said joke?
Your humour unit appears to be broken human, report to the nearest repair facility for evaluation and service.
This is a message board where only written text is accepted as input and output, there is no port for humor. Invalid statement: please respond with a literal value.
I usually (most often to my disadvantage) roll need only on a blue for my class, greed on a usable green/ench and pass on all red. I think that's fair and am forced to change my rolls, only because there is always someone who needs on everything. Often I leave the dungeon with next to nothing (my fault, but I stick to my ethics). The one blue I rolled need for that I could use (after passing on most things), I rolled less than 20.
1. Make every "pass" increment the next positive roll by a small percentage.
2. Maybe make all blue/purple items BOP and unsellable?
I haven't really thought this through, but there are, and always will be, greedy players. There shouldn't be such greedy companies whose every thought is "How can we make money off this; how can we make people use the cash shop for everything?"
So after a lot of dungeons and wild conversation with a friend, i dont realy know how to grasp at the loot roll system of this game.
Thing is...i am essencialy a good person.I dont want spoil fun for other Just Because.I want to have a good time...but when comes down to looting a ring/neck that EVERY class can wear, thats when the **** will hit the fan.
Unidentified
Seriously, how we can determinate (usualy with fighting some mobs) if i want that piece of gear?How can know if the ring has better value than my current?Cause i dont want to loose a chance for better stats, but then again i dont want to steal potencional upgrade of my teammate!
So, how dou you deal with this stupid,broken, riped of its point annoyance?
PS:Why do we have unidentified items anyway?There is no Lore, so we cant identify it for ourslef/party members.We also cant equip unidentified items anyway.And there are NO cursed/-stats equipment when we would need to find the priest to get rid of it.Its a just excuse to sqeeze the few more drops of AD from a players...
EDIT
Ok, looks like people dont realy get this topic, or maybe i wasnt clear enough.This isnt conversation about Pug dungeons, or morality and mentality of playerbase.
Im pointing at serious problem.If i am about to decide if i NEED that item or just GREED cause i need some gold, i need some info about it.I NEED TO KNOW what im dealing with, otherwise im just rolling on a rabbit in a bag
Sorry to mention it but WoW has a system with their need/greed that restricts anyone that can't use that item from clicking need. To me it's a pretty good system and Neverwinter should use it as well. (Please don't respond to this critisizing WoW or anything like that, I just wanted to use it as an example and I am not here for an MMO debate. Thank you.)
I also wanted to comment that something could be implemented like, you cannot select need on an item that is not an improvement for you. If unidentified, must click greed unless blue+.
This point keeps coming up, and WoW isn't the only game that uses a need/greed loot system like that, there are many that do. It's not that this method should be adopted for NW because others do it... it's because it just makes the most sense. Quite honestly to me, what we're talking about here is what makes need/greed rolling, truly "need vs. greed", otherwise you might as well call it an "equitable distribution, and depending on the group your with, sometimes fair free for all".
This point keeps coming up, and WoW isn't the only game that uses a need/greed loot system like that, there are many that do. It's not that this method should be adopted for NW because others do it... it's because it just makes the most sense. Quite honestly to me, what we're talking about here is what makes need/greed rolling, truly "need vs. greed", otherwise you might as well call it an "equitable distribution, and depending on the group your with, sometimes fair free for all".
The issue is in itself, the problem. Because of "need and greed" being subjectively different to many people and the system not differentiating between that, people make false assumptions, and due to those false assumptions end up in all manner of toxic situations and high friction encounters. Ultimately they need to tweak the system itself to accommodate the issue with the players to avoid these problems (imho), but the problem isn't with the system really, it's with the players, but it's still a good idea to look into changing it.
"As always, the mechanical element of the system is flawless. The human element however... is less than..."
I still think giving everyone their own drops is better. Of course for bosses, getting a blue wouldn't be certain, but at least a green so everyone at least gets something.
This was going to be my idea as well. Elegant and easy. if you don't like it sell it on ah
yes, it is a simple concept. But the problem is that some people are just plain selfish and greedy, and WILL always select need so they can have it and DENY it to you. What kills me is that these jokers DO NOT realize that building up gold isn't really going to help them. And that's all they're doing right now. The in-game market is dead, I have YET to successfully sell ONE item, after about 20 tries. So any drops you get you have to sell to a merchant for cash, of which I have PLENTY. Before lvl 25 and buying my mount at the vendor I was hurting, but now I've got 17 gold and counting (lvl43!). As for me, I roll need for any green or better that is a class item, pass on non class items. I don't care about the color.... If my current toon can't use it, it's just cluttering up my limited inventory during the dungeon / mish. I will say it would be nice if the game used a Guild Wars 2 model, which is all drops are player specific. No need, no greed. It stops this whole issue dead in its tracks and takes care of the loot thieves.
Comments
What's interesting is since I've been playing here, I've adopted the roll how the other group members are rolling unless I need it for my toon that I'm playing at that moment.
For example, one pass through an instance (pug group), everyone was greed/passing on all items unless a given member actually needed the item and they would roll need - so I followed the same pattern. Another instance run (pug group) most of us were greed/passing the items except for one person that need rolled on EVERYTHING. It got to the point that since that person was needing everything that the rest of us started to do the same just so we could get some loot - the person wouldn't even respond when asked why they were needing on everything (even items that are obviously good and/or upgrades for other group members, the player also seemed to get frequent high rolls, but he/she may have just been lucky with the RNG).
Personally, I look forward to getting my toon into a guild and running with a a group where the loot rules are clear to everyone (even if you try to be clear about them in a pug, there seems to be always one or two that will go against the rules all agreed to).
Though I admit I usually don't pay attention as to whether something is class specific. only if it's green or red. Green is need red is pass.
But I very rarely collect stuff to auction off on the AH only time I do is if I happen to get a drop that's a duplicate of something I already have, and the other stuff, I try on to see how it effects my GR etc. then vendor it for copper to buy potions/injury kits if it's not better than what i already have.
also i am a D&D player from way back, and to me a wizzard that cant learn an identify spell is not a wizzard at all, it just makes no sense, merchants should be able to id your items for you at the very least if wizzards cant, how can a fighter have the skill/lore required to read and use magic scrolls? thats not right either
just my 2 bobs worth
Ive already opened a thread with this topic http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?239401-Do-we-actualy-play-D-amp-D/page9&highlight=play .Feel free to add this topic there!
This only makes me question how a system like this would work.
Suppose you have a standard five member party. Three of them roll need. The other two roll greed.
Now, under this new system, what happens? Are the two greeds simply excluded from the roll altogether? Or do the needs get a significant bonus to their die roll (allowing a greeder to potentially win out over a needer anyway)?
It seems to me that when a drop comes up that's not usable by your class, you shouldn't be prompted to roll on it at all.
Need non class specific items... all of them, and greed the rest. done, problem solved.
edit: this has the advantage of being fair and quick when ppl start picking stuff up in a battle.
On a side note, in the HUD options the area where those roll requests show up can be changed. It's fairly intrusive when they pop up in the middle of the screen while you are trying to fight.
The wizard here is a 4th Edition wizard. Can they ID?
No, they can not...
Wait for first green/blue specific class drop, if only one of my class in the group and someone needs on it, or all do, refuse to continue dealing damage, healing or controlling mobs. Wait for kick and or party to disband. Laugh repeatedly as they try and continue past boss barrier without kicking me or at bad justifications while looking at pictures of cats online, await realization that it's their own time they're wasting now and "time is money, hurhurhur"
Also, WTB a misdirection/tricks of the trade-esque skill to repeatedly get extra aggro for greedy fools in dungeons and make sure they die. Though as I main a healer, it's usually fun to just not heal them and instead make sure you keep everyone else alive, tough but fun.
In another game I play you can't even see the item unless your the class that can use it .
That works and keeps all the selfish people at bay.
I DO NOT mind if I roll against another wiz and lose . I am not a sore loser I do however have an issue if a tank wins my wiz robe.
I know they are trying to fix things in game ASAP and I thank them for the PVP AFK issue being addressed .
This need or greed issue needs to fixed ASAP also . My ignore and my DO NOT GROUP list is becoming to long.
Please guys if you can not use an item Please do not roll need . It is simple . If you are on a toon that can use it then NEED IT
IF you are on a toon that cannot use it then GREED IT
If you do not give a dang about the item then PASS .
Very simple concept . IF you cant understand this maybe there are smarter people in your guild that can explain it to you .
As it stands, the best way to run dungeons is to only ever party with people you know. So - get your 4 other friends together, ensure they are all different classes but the same level, and off you go!
Now at 60 I Need on every Enchantment Pass on every green and ofc when epics drop i take the time to see if its an upgrade before i need.
This question is easy to answer.
because money
That's the answer. It's a potential AD sink if you buy enough scrolls to ID everything, helps mitigate an influx of gold if you don't (which appears to have no real use, except that if you run low on cash to buy pots/kits/etc., you will result to spending ADs to buy the stuff) and ultimately try to force you into spending real cash.
because money
Greed on an item that I can use of equal or higher lvl (none class related items) then my current gear & enchant stones.
Need anything that is class related to my class of a higher lvl then current gear set.
I stopped reading the thread after this page, so I apologize if someone else already says the same thing as I am about to say:
What's wrong with making the item being rolled on visible and comparable until it's looted so all players can see if they actually need it? Once it goes in inventory, it becomes unknown until identified. Not that I'm privy to the code, but being a programmer I know this has to be a viable option. Seems to me it would also satisfy Occam's razor
Also as far as some tweaks to the system overall:
It should be default that if the party leader chooses the need/greed loot option, that only if the class is present in the dungeon are they allowed to need roll on it at all, if that class is not present then everyone would only be able to greed roll on it. Examples:
Scenario 1) A wizard orb drops and there is a CW present, so he is the only one who gets the option to need roll, everyone else can either greed or pass. That way if the cw doesn't need it, people can greed roll, otherwise he will automatically get it.
Scenario 2) A wizard orb drops, now there are 2 CW's in the party (this one should be obvious, right), they are the only two who have the option of need rolling, everyone else may greed or pass.
Scenario 3)A wizard orb drops and there is no CW to roll on it, everyone is only given the option to greed roll it.
It defies any sort of logic for a class to be able to "need" something he can't wear, right?
This is what's wrong with America... everyone is a winner, yay (until you venture into the real world, and find out sometimes even if you win you lose)! I think this would be a great idea for a Disney themed mmo, maybe.
LOL. Because all games should mirror the real world.
"That's right folks, now healing magic will take weeks to have effect. Injuries will take months if not years to heal and your character depending on age, will now require several hours sleep and run on an energy system"
You are a very literal reader aren't you ? Go venture forth in this real world of yours and acquire some levity, sadly if you can't find it or unable to equip it... you can't buy it at the local store.
If you meant it as a joke, why take offense when I get in on said joke?
Your humour unit appears to be broken human, report to the nearest repair facility for evaluation and service.
This is a message board where only written text is accepted as input and output, there is no port for humor. Invalid statement: please respond with a literal value.
This is how I've been doing it since Beta.
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
1. Make every "pass" increment the next positive roll by a small percentage.
2. Maybe make all blue/purple items BOP and unsellable?
I haven't really thought this through, but there are, and always will be, greedy players. There shouldn't be such greedy companies whose every thought is "How can we make money off this; how can we make people use the cash shop for everything?"
Sorry to mention it but WoW has a system with their need/greed that restricts anyone that can't use that item from clicking need. To me it's a pretty good system and Neverwinter should use it as well. (Please don't respond to this critisizing WoW or anything like that, I just wanted to use it as an example and I am not here for an MMO debate. Thank you.)
I also wanted to comment that something could be implemented like, you cannot select need on an item that is not an improvement for you. If unidentified, must click greed unless blue+.
The issue is in itself, the problem. Because of "need and greed" being subjectively different to many people and the system not differentiating between that, people make false assumptions, and due to those false assumptions end up in all manner of toxic situations and high friction encounters. Ultimately they need to tweak the system itself to accommodate the issue with the players to avoid these problems (imho), but the problem isn't with the system really, it's with the players, but it's still a good idea to look into changing it.
"As always, the mechanical element of the system is flawless. The human element however... is less than..."