Scoundrel Rogue tactics

leonf25

I am a relatively new level 60 rogue, so I haven't had a chance to truly experience the end game content yet, but I've done a fair share of dungeons/skirmishes/pvp along the way, and I thought I'd share my strategy/experience and get some feedback.

First of all, I would like to make a disclaimer that the information below doesn't have much theorycraft behind it; the information is based on my own observations and play style. There are two reasons for posting this:
-To provide Scoundrel option for people who are intrested in that tree
-Get feedback from other players on any flaws in my logic/issues with end game

I'll try to cover reasoning/performance for all the skills and feats for leveling, dungeoning and PvP.You can view my full build of powers/feats here: http://reyva.com/resources/neverwinter-powers-feat-simulator.9/#bD8UMRsg6EW81PVRVVt556DPcyE2eQnE7Or14dOwC338PmzTnK2Id0xLuLRL6u09C

The purpose of my build is two-fold. Consider these as main goals:

• Goal 1: Stay in stealth for as long as possible (ideally always)
• Goal 2: Maximize AP regen so Lurker’s Assault is used as often as possible (see Goal 1)
• Goal 3: Take advantage of damage boost bonuses in light of above
• Goal 4: Maximize At-Will damage, and use encounter powers to power (no pun intended) the goals above

FEATS
Heroic

Tier I:
Action Advantage
2/4/6/8/10% additional Action Point for dealing Combat Advantage damage (5/5)
This is a no brainer, considering the goal for this build is to always remain in Stealth (i.e. have a permanent Combat Advantage) and to quicker regen AP. This feat is right in a sweet spot of bonuses for this build and is available immediately, so you can take advantage of it from early levels.

Weapon Mastery
1/2/3% greater chance to land a critical hit. (2/3)
This is a place for the 2 "throw-away" points, since there are no other useful selections at Tier II and 2% crit is, well, 2% crit.

Tier II:
Cunning Ambusher
You deal 2/4/6% more damage fo 6 seconds after leaving Stealth (3/3)
Now, as much as I'd love to stay in stealth forever, it's not really feasible with current game mechanics, so you will be out of stealth for a bit at points of the battle (later, I'll discuss how to make that transition time intentional), so it makes sense to maximize the damage during those "down times".

On a side note, I am not quiet sure why would the game have 3/3 feats, instead of having all slots at 5, forcing the choice, similar to Paragon trees. Perhaps it'll be reworked in the future.

Tier III:
Twilight Adept
2/4/6/8/10% Stealth meter recharge when you dodge with a roll (5/5)
Again, Tier III is not presenting you with many options for this build. 6% more to encounter powers is not that relevant for this build, and 3% deflection is, well, 3% deflection. Surprisingly, this feat is providing to be very useful for stealth meter recharge if you're skilled at dodging, it managed to help me stay stealth for longer than usual while moving away from dmg on boss fights multiple times. However, if you decide to go with more of an offensive encounter powers, other options will work just as well.

Tier IV:
Improved Cunning Sneak
4/8/12/16/20% longer-lasting Stealth meter (5/5)
This was the toughest tier to make the selection, and probably where the most of theorycraft will come in. I opted out to go with longer stealth over At-will damage while un-targeted from Scoundrel Training
and Strength bonus from Disciple of Strength because IMHO additional second in stealth not only gives you continuous Combat Advantage (with bonus damage), which may be equivalent to bonuses from other feats (again, this is where theorycraft comes in), but also gives you greater flexibility in moving/escaping/positioning/rotating skills in both PvE, and arguably more valuable, PvP.

Paragon

Underhanded Tactics
Increase the effectiveness of Combat Advantage for you by 4/8/12/1/20% (5/5)
Yes, please. Permanent Stealth = Permanent Combat Advantage = Permanent 20% of Combat Advantage damage


Nimble Blade
35% chance to deal an additional 4/8/12/1/20% damage on a non critical strike (5/5)
I decided to go with Nimble Blade over Press the Advantage because I use Impossible to Catch situationally, and not speccing heavy crit chance. The proc, despite 35% chance, is pretty **** good, especially with Duelist’s Flurry. Fits well into Goal #4.


Mocking Knave
Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage. Additionally, Cloud of Steel's damage bonus per stack is increased by .5/1/1.5/2/2.5% (5/5)
Increasing your "white" damage. See Goal #4.

Action Rush
Your encounter Powers have a 15% chance to grant 3/6/9/12/15% of your Action Point (5/5)
This is another boost to AP generation (one of the few rare ones TR has). Some of the encounter powers I use have a pretty short cooldown, and given the number of times you actually use encounter powers during any given this proc becomes worth it. 15%/15% is a little low for being that deep in the Paragon tree, but AP regen comes so seldom for us that I'll take what I can.

I opted out of taking Whirlwind Sneak, because I am not relying much on encounter damage, as you'll see below based on the recommended powers. Even if I was targeting more damage oriented encounter powers, this feat leaves much to be desired. Again, maybe it'll get reworked to become more viable.

I am also taking 1 feat per each other Paragon tree.

Dazzling Blades
Your At-Wills powers have 3/6/9/12/15% chance to reduce cooldown on recharging Encounter powers by 1 second (5/5)
Considering all the stealth generation encounter powers that I am using (and will be discussing lower), this is great by itself, but it also has an awesome synergy with Action Rush. It's a vicious circle of regeneration. Only good.

Cunning Stalker
While Stealthed, you build 4/8/12/1/20% more Action Point (5/5)
So much needed consistent AP generation. Plus, you're always stealthed = you're always generating 20% more AP.So with feats set straight, let look at what powers work best to support the goals. Luckily, unlike feats, there are much more flexibility (both play style and situational) with powers, so builds can vary depending on preferences, while still working towards supporting the goals above. I, personally, run with probably 3 or 4 configurations, depending on farming, dungeoneering, or PvP. Below is a list of powers, my assessment of it's viability in different situations, and some comments.

Note: PvE here means farming and questing. Dungeon means Dungeons, Skirmishes, and certain instance solo bosses.


POWERS

At Will




PvE
Dungeon
PvP



Sly Flourish
3
3
3
First and the trusties At-Will. Your bread and butter.


Cloud of Steel
3
2
3
Really nice for killing minions at distance and continuing damaging those pesky mages with AoE under them. Must have for PvP.


Duelist’s Flurry
2
3
1
Slowest wind up, yet highest damage output. Monster damage on bosses from Stealth with Lurker’s Assault


Gloaming Cut
0
0
0
I don't see any value in this skill, even considering this spec is all about staying in stealth. I am killing groups (multiple) of minions while in stealth as is, and you have to time it well on mobs with higher HP/defense, so I don't understand why would you occupy At-Will slop with a very, very situational skill that doesn't provide any other value.



Encounter




PVE
Dungeon
PvP



Dazing Strike
2
2
3
Daze is always good in PvE. Daze is always great in PvP. No major drawbacks, decent cooldown, generally solid damage/utility skill. Contends with others in PvE tho, which are more relevant to the spec.


Bait and Switch
3
3
1
Must have for PvE in this build. First, if cast right before Stealth expires, it regenerates Stealth bar to keep you in stealth much longer. Second, regenerates 3% AP when hit, so casting it in crowds and stealthing right after (see "first") will give you 1/2 of AP bar from the get go. Works only with dumb opponents in PvP.


Deft Strike
3
2
3
Love this skill, primarily because I am a big fan of gap closers. It, well, closes gap, and puts you behind opponent, allowing to avoid front cleaves. Unfortunately, it competes with other skills, so I had to change it out around level 40 for Shadow Strike. Fortunately, it's a "must have" in PvP.


Lashing Blade
2
3
2
Biggest encounter power damage. It's ... ok. Doesn't fit well into this build because of lack of supporting abilities and large cooldown, but for the fans of seeing big numbers every 20 seconds, use it in the optional slot (see below).


Shadow Strike
3
3
2
It refreshes your stealth meter. Every 12 seconds, without Dazzling Blades. This skill was designed for this build.


Blitz
2
2
1
AoE. It's not much, but it's all we have. It's ok for half-clearing minions when farming, and does provide another gap-widener, so worth using as the only AoE.


Impact Shot
0
0
1
Not sure why this power exists. Cloud of Steel provides much better "charge" ability At-Will. Only reason I consider suggesting 1 for PvP is a in-stealth Stun. With this build it can provide 2-3 stuns in a row, but you would lose other stealth advantages.


Path of the Blade
0
1
0
Short-range, short-lived pseudo AoE with 25 second cooldown. No, thank you.


Wicked Reminder
2
3
2
Less damage than Lashing Blade but provides armor debuff. And the best part? It's on a 4 second cooldown, which fills out your "non-stealth" time, and plays extremely well with Action Rush.


Smoke Bomb
2
2
3
AoE daze and Slow. Nuff' said.


Impossible to Catch
3
3
3
Your "oh-sh&t" button. Sans PvP, I found it to be extremely useful on boss fights, where you can stand in place during the "big boom" in the area, allowing you to continue DPSing instead of spending time running back and forth.



Daily




PvE
Dungeon
PvP



Bloodbath
2
2
3
Visually funnest daily, representative of rogue. Very low damage, but makes you untargetable for a few seconds, while executing. Once you get later Dailies becomes more of a PvP power.


Lurker's Assault
3
3
3
Cornerstone of this build Fast stealth regeneration, 60% more damage. Instant lock for primary Daily.


Whirlwind of Blades
2
2
1
Mediocre AoE that we lack. Added bonus - extra power. Based on my observation, you get about 500-1000 power for the duration, which is decent, on top of AoE. Nice secondary Daily for farming/clearing rooms.


Courage Breaker
0
1
0
I haven't found this skill to be useful yet. Maybe once I see tanks being one-shotted I'll consider it.


Shocking Execution
0
1
0
Again, I haven't found any use for this skill yet. Lurker's Assault will provide more damage over duration than one shot, as hard as it may be, and provide regen to stealth for the same duration. This skill is worth being an encounter, then I'd consider it.



Class




PvE
Dungeon
PvP



Sneak Attack
0
0
0
Unless it is reinstated to do additional damage in stealth - it is beyond useless.


First Strike
0
0
0
Yet another joke. I tend to think about these as placeholders, names will stay and powers will be reworked.


Tenacious Concealment
3
3
3
You stay in stealth even when damaged. See Goal #1. Situational if you're not taking damage.


Tactics
3
3
3
Goal #2. 15% is not much, but it's consistant, and adds up.


Infiltrator's Action
0
0
0
Don't understand a thought process behind this. The goal here is to stay in stealth. i.e. have combat advantage. And even without it, we are not going to tank.


Skillful Infiltrator
3
3
3
3% deflect and crit and 15% run speed warrants a mention. Good for that extra DPS, if you're goon on your goals.


Invisible Infiltrator
2
3
1
Even considering the build, we have plenty of stealth replenishes, and there are better options for Class skills available. UPDATE: thanks to solsol1337 for pointing out that currently first 10 stacks of Duelist’s Flurry stay as replenished, so, with 15% dmg on the bleed, this may be significantly more valuable then I originally suspected.

Now, with all the recap out of the way, a couple of power sets that I use (which is probably is going to be an extraction of above, but read it as tldr;)

Farming/Questing

L-click: Sly Flourish
R-click: Cloud of Steel

Q: Bait and Switch
E: Shadow Strike
R: Blitz

1: Lurker's Assault
2: Whirlwind of Blades

C1: Tactics
C2: Tenacious Concealment/Skillful Infiltrator

At-will are self explanatory. Generally, minions and farm mobs die quickly, so you want fast attacks to finish them off and move on. Q and E are there to remain in stealth while clearing groups of mobs. R is "AoE" either damage or control, depending on the group. Dailies and Class powers are self-explanatory, not many options there.

Standard rotation:

Cloud of Steel (optional) -> Blitz -> Lurker's Assault (optional)-> Stealth -> Bait and Switch (when stealth bar is almost empty) -> Shadow Strike (when stealth bar is almost empty), with Sly Flourish/Cloud of Steel in-stealth (depending on range). This will clear multiple packs, and with AP regen, you should be able to rinse and repeat at the end of the sequence. Starting from lvl 45-ish, it takes 1 pack on non-minion mobs to fully fill out my AP bar. With this sequence I can take out 2-3 packs, considering you are in stealth for about 18 seconds, without Lurker's Assault. Use it if you need that extra DPS boost.


Dungeons/Bosses

L-click: Sly Flourish/Cloud of Steel
R-click: Duelist’s Flurry/Cloud of Steel

Q: Bait and Switch
E: Shadow Strike
R: Wicked Reminder/Impossible to Catch

1: Lurker's Assault
2: Whirlwind of Blades

C1: Tactics
C2: Tenacious Concealment/Skillful Infiltrator

The setup is very similar to Farming, with Q and E being primary AP/Stealth generators, but this is where Duelist’s Flurry shines.* Ability to consistently unleash full combo from Lurker's Assault and Stealth dishes out insane single target damage. I alternate R based on the situation.

UPDATE: In discussions with noroblad we discussed the viability of using Duelist’s Flurry/Cloud of Steel as primaries vs Duelist’s Flurry/Sly Flourish

Standard rotation:

Lurker's Assault (optional)-> Stealth -> Bait and Switch (when stealth bar is almost empty) -> Shadow Strike (when stealth bar is almost empty), with Duelist’s Flurryin stealth. The rotation remains pretty much the same, however choice of R modifies the sequence a bit.

If I go with Wicked Reminder, I use it every time I am out of stealth and before I go back in. Or right before I go out of stealth, which give 3 stacks automatically (if your timing is good). This is a group buff approach, since you're reducing the armor for everyone in the party, so your DPS may slip to #2 if you have a purely damage-oriented rogue or mage in a group. However, it does provide a solid boost to the whole group.

I go with Impossible to Catch either when I know that there will be a lot of damage going on around me, or when I want to boost my own DPS. Casting it allowing you to stay in "red" area for the duration, attacking without interruption and relieving healers for the duration. While "damage" rogues will need to run in and out of range, I continue Duelist’s Flurry bursts from Lurker's Assault and Stealth without wasting a second for movement. Generally, cooldown onImpossible to Catch short enough to let you sit through all the major damage/disables, and Tenacious Concealment helps remain in Stealth with all the minor damage taken.

*if the boss is highly mobile/teleporting, your best primary is still Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel should be secondary, because you won't be able to get advantage from the long winded Duelist’s Flurry

PvP

L-click: Sly Flourish
R-click: Cloud of Steel

Q: Dazing Strike
E: Deft Strike
R: Smoke Bomb

1: Lurker's Assault
2: Bloodbath

C1: Skillful Infiltrator
C2: Tenacious Concealment/Tactics

For PvP I am going for disables and gap closers. Both Dazing Strike and Smoke Bomb provide good in-stealth effects, and Deft Strike lets me close the distance to start hitting casters or catch up to runners and get in position to Daze/Stun.

There is really no rotation for PvP, as anyone who played any game knows, just get close, disable, and hit hard.I think that's it. Hopefully it'll be useful to someone looking for similar play style with TR. Again, I welcome feedback/comments/corrections/theories. I will try to keep this updated as things change or as I learn better ways to utilize this spec.

leonf25

As I've been playing at lvl 60 for some time, I star wondering which stats are more important for this build. So far, it looks to be Power and Armor Penetration over Crit, but I am open to recommendations.

frivoli

This is exactly the build I was looking for... exactly what I am trying to do with my rogue.

I have a question about Gloaming Cut. Is it not at all useful as a gap closer? In every post I've seen on that ability it says 'the damage sucks, animation is long and the stealth recharge isn't worth it'. I thought the main benefit of the ability was that it could be used instead of Deft Strike for a short-ranged gap close while staying in stealth. Does it not fulfill that function effectively?

noroblad

frivoli wrote: »

This is exactly the build I was looking for... exactly what I am trying to do with my rogue.

I have a question about Gloaming Cut. Is it not at all useful as a gap closer? In every post I've seen on that ability it says 'the damage sucks, animation is long and the stealth recharge isn't worth it'. I thought the main benefit of the ability was that it could be used instead of Deft Strike for a short-ranged gap close while staying in stealth. Does it not fulfill that function effectively?

It moves you about 2 steps forward. You could literally close a bigger gap faster by rolling forward and using a stronger hitting spam attack.

I agree with most of the OP. Shocking execution is probably OK for a boss with very strong 360 aoes where even in lurker's you get destroyed if you stand there pounding on the boss. Lurkers is better any other time, but if you need to use a hit & run, this is your skill. Try it on an injured boss from stealth after warping in behind them...... The skill is flawed slightly. Any sane player would enter a boss fight with full d20, burn a daily, recharge it, and burn a second time (if needed) to maximize daily uses on a boss. This one... you hold back until the boss is below 1/2 health so your other daily needs to be useful to burn out right away when the fight starts, whatever choice that may be (lurkers, probably?).

I use dualist for everything as my spam attack. If you get used to it, you can use all the hits on different targets for solo-trash/whatever content. So hit, hit, swap targets, kill with blitz, back to original, hit, dies, next, hit, blitz, dead, next.... its awkward to master this but once you do, you can make this skill the strongest dps at-will for all content. What you do not want to do is hit, hit (dies), reset, new target, hit, hit, dies. --- without the blitz third hit(s) being used on a target, the skill is very lacking, so you *must* master using it on weaker targets if you use it on them.


Wicked helps your ENTIRE GROUP I think, right? Lowered armor for all attacks, not just yours, making it a key to have in group play?

I have found next to no use for impossible to catch in PVE. If I ever find a boss that has CC worthy of needing this, I will slot it, but its a 0 for PVE in my book.

I argue that cloud of steel is useful in a boss fight and that for all pve the combo of (dualist, cloud) is the unbeatable best at-will setup. Dualist and sly... seems useless to me. ??

Lashing blade is like shocking execution: its for the in and out hit & run approach to 360 aoe spamming mobs/bosses. Naturally, while waiting on the aoe, you throw daggers or murder some adds.

Not a fan of the smoke bomb/daze attack etc in a group. Solo and pvp, sure. In a group, your job is to kill stuff faster IMHO, and most of your skills should be high damage or (only if necessary) escapes/defenses.

This class is like most mmo stealth classes --- lots and lots of ways to do it, no one way to "do it best/right". So just some alternative ideas here...

leonf25

frivoli wrote: »

This is exactly the build I was looking for... exactly what I am trying to do with my rogue.

I have a question about Gloaming Cut. Is it not at all useful as a gap closer? In every post I've seen on that ability it says 'the damage sucks, animation is long and the stealth recharge isn't worth it'. I thought the main benefit of the ability was that it could be used instead of Deft Strike for a short-ranged gap close while staying in stealth. Does it not fulfill that function effectively?

It somewhat does, but it's inefficient for gap closer, and only beneficial when last-hitting, to stay in stealth, which, with above spec, you should be sufficient at already.

noroblad wrote: »

Wicked helps your ENTIRE GROUP I think, right? Lowered armor for all attacks, not just yours, making it a key to have in group play?

Correct, that what draws me to it, being a long-time rogue in many games it's nice to see a group-wide utility you can provide

noroblad wrote: »

I have found next to no use for impossible to catch in PVE. If I ever find a boss that has CC worthy of needing this, I will slot it, but its a 0 for PVE in my book.

I use it to mitigate all damage for a period of time. As example, if a boss casts bit red circle under him (like red dragon), I can hit it, and continue DPSing though damage without interruptions. Arguable, it's worth benchmarking whether this approach or purely damage power would be more effective.

noroblad wrote: »

I argue that cloud of steel is useful in a boss fight and that for all pve the combo of (dualist, cloud) is the unbeatable best at-will setup. Dualist and sly... seems useless to me. ??

I would agree. There are certain fights, however, where sly would be more useful because of constant movement, but I'd agree with your point on dualist/cloud combo.

noroblad wrote: »

Not a fan of the smoke bomb/daze attack etc in a group. Solo and pvp, sure. In a group, your job is to kill stuff faster IMHO, and most of your skills should be high damage or (only if necessary) escapes/defenses.

Agree.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Any thoughts on item property builds yet?

lhyeuze

Finally, someone else is not playing with hat **** executioneer template.

Which stats is better for this build, Cha or Str?

I put my point in cha because I knew every rogue would put them in str and I wanted to do something different.

noroblad

lhyeuze wrote: »

Finally, someone else is not playing with hat **** executioneer template.

Which stats is better for this build, Cha or Str?

I put my point in cha because I knew every rogue would put them in str and I wanted to do something different.

If you want to do something different, pump int or wisdom or con.... ? *NO ONE* is doing that
seriously though it depends, "better" is subjective. STR is "better" for dps up to a point: is dps your main goal in life? Cha -- I forget what all it does, but consider that at higher levels with a top quality companion, you get a lot of stats (power, crit, etc, not str/int etc) from your companion with a high cha. I do not KNOW if that overwhelms str builds or not. So your companion (now and future) is a big deal here.

It also depends on your race & starting stats. Str just adds 1% damage per click (over 10 and all stats start at 10 anyway at the worst). 1% of 10k is 100 damage. Maxed out, then, a 10k hit becomes 11500. 1500 extra damage on a hit is significant, and, let me assure you that a maxed out rogue can hit for more than this (its a round number example, is all). I can't tell you the same if you leeched 1k more power from your pet with CHA, I can't say that 10k becomes 12k or whatever, I do not KNOW.

All I can say is that cha does more stuff. If top dps is not your primary goal, and you can live with *possibly* being lower, then pump CHA. IF you want top dps, .... str seems like it might be the winner but if you had the best of the best of everything, it may not be? If you are casual, like me, and unlikely to have the best of the best, str seems to win (for dps).

solsol1337

Just a few corrections to a few ability descriptions. I know you said you hadn't tested anything, but I have, and lots of people want a build like this. So here you go:

"Underhanded Tactics
Yes, please. Permanent Stealth = Permanent Combat Advantage = Permanent 20% damage"
This is actually 20%* your CA damage bonus, which is 10%+Charisma bonus. So if you have ~20 charisma (like most people probably do) the value of underhanded tactics is actually 20%*0.2 = 4% damage bonus from CA.

Disciple of strength - This actually gives a 6% damage buff. To a permanent stealth build 20% extra stealth is very valuable though, so this information might not change much, but at least people can be informed of the value of the other options.

Bait and Switch - "or put you back in if you're out." Bait and switch will only get you back in stealth if you're out if you cast it before your stealth meter runs out. If you cast it while fully out of stealth it does not grant you a stealth meter.

Path of Blades - This skill does exactly the same damage regardless of how many mobs are in its area of effect. It does 19 hits over its duration, none of which can crit. You may want to update your wording in the description of this as it is misleading.

Lurker's Assault - "...while AP are being generated" Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but while in lurker's assault you do not regenerate AP at all. You said this same thing in the description of shocking execution.

You are using duelist's flurry for bosses, so Invisible Infiltrator is actually the best passive you can bring for bosses. The way that the bleed is currently working is such that the first 10 stack you apply stays on the boss until you let it drop.....So extrapolate a bit and you realize that you can drop a full lurkers assault + 15% damage from infiltrator bleed on the boss that you can maintain until it dies. They may or may not patch this, but for now it's extremely strong for damage.

Also from a design standpoint, you make 3/3 feats to force people to drop points into options that otherwise they may not (such as how my build has that one defensive point). Or how Tier 5 forces you to choose between 3 good options for any build.

Other than those few things great guide!

leonf25

Thanks for the corrections solsol1337! Updates the post, and learned something new for myself

lhyeuze

noroblad wrote: »

If you want to do something different, pump int or wisdom or con.... ? *NO ONE* is doing that
seriously though it depends, "better" is subjective. STR is "better" for dps up to a point: is dps your main goal in life? Cha -- I forget what all it does, but consider that at higher levels with a top quality companion, you get a lot of stats (power, crit, etc, not str/int etc) from your companion with a high cha. I do not KNOW if that overwhelms str builds or not. So your companion (now and future) is a big deal here.

It also depends on your race & starting stats. Str just adds 1% damage per click (over 10 and all stats start at 10 anyway at the worst). 1% of 10k is 100 damage. Maxed out, then, a 10k hit becomes 11500. 1500 extra damage on a hit is significant, and, let me assure you that a maxed out rogue can hit for more than this (its a round number example, is all). I can't tell you the same if you leeched 1k more power from your pet with CHA, I can't say that 10k becomes 12k or whatever, I do not KNOW.

All I can say is that cha does more stuff. If top dps is not your primary goal, and you can live with *possibly* being lower, then pump CHA. IF you want top dps, .... str seems like it might be the winner but if you had the best of the best of everything, it may not be? If you are casual, like me, and unlikely to have the best of the best, str seems to win (for dps).

I just want to be top dps and the one who took the least damage as all rogues should aim. A dead dps does not dps.

nargule

Fist of i'd like to say a massive thank you for your thread. This is great and so detailed to help others. I'm going to try a Rogue and see how i go.

hazjaad

noroblad wrote: »

All I can say is that cha does more stuff. If top dps is not your primary goal, and you can live with *possibly* being lower, then pump CHA. IF you want top dps, .... str seems like it might be the winner but if you had the best of the best of everything, it may not be? If you are casual, like me, and unlikely to have the best of the best, str seems to win (for dps).

From a theorycraft perspective, this all depends on whether you want a more "Brigand/Thug"-type toe-to-toe Rogue build (probably Executioner Paragon Feats), or a more "Assassin/Sneak"-type Rogue build (stealth focus).

If you want to go Executioner Paragon, you can almost ignore CHA; you still want it as high as possible, but it's your third stat and a relatively distant third at that. Should really focus on DEX/STR/(CHA) - and in that order. Overrun Critical gets so much of a bonus from critical hits that it is honestly better to focus DEX than STR, so long as your STR still finishes on a high note - 22+ at 60 depending on choice of race.

If you want to go Scoundrel or Infiltrator Paragon and focus on Stealth, you hit an interesting situation where STR or DEX compete for your most important stat depending on specific Feat build, but CHA is the secondary of choice. One can make a perfectly viable Rogue build that focuses on STR and CHA (for a Stealth build) and essentially ignore DEX as nothing but a Crit generator; your Combat Advantage damage will be ENORMOUS compared to many other builds. Alternately you can focus on DEX and try to vaguely equalize your STR and CHA if you want a more "critty" build. You can really milk Ioun Stone and other Passive Companion stat bonuses with high CHA and the right Rune Stones, giving you an overall gear-stat advantage.

*Edited for dropped sentence from browser glitch*

casia345

hazjaad wrote: »

From a theorycraft perspective, this all depends on whether you want a more "Brigand/Thug"-type toe-to-toe Rogue build (probably Executioner Paragon Feats), or a more "Assassin/Sneak"-type Rogue build (stealth focus).

If you want to go Executioner Paragon, you can almost ignore CHA; you still want it as high as possible, but it's your third stat and a relatively distant third at that. Should really focus on DEX/STR/(CHA) - and in that order. Overrun Critical gets so much of a bonus from critical hits that it is honestly better to focus DEX than STR, so long as your STR still finishes on a high note - 22+ at 60 depending on choice of race.

If you want to go Scoundrel or Infiltrator Paragon and focus on Stealth, you hit an interesting situation where STR or DEX compete for your most important stat depending on specific Feat build, but CHA is the secondary of choice. One can make a perfectly viable Rogue build that focuses on STR and CHA (for a Stealth build) and essentially ignore DEX as nothing but a Crit generator; your Combat Advantage damage will be ENORMOUS compared to many other builds. Alternately you can focus on DEX and try to vaguely equalize your STR and CHA if you want a more "critty" build. You can really milk Ioun Stone and other Passive Companion stat bonuses with high CHA and the right Rune Stones, giving you an overall gear-stat advantage.

*Edited for dropped sentence from browser glitch*

you would need something like 500% crit severity for dex to match str in a exec build. even more with any other.

Str wins hands down in all builds. Str/cha for scoundrels obviously.
in fact, any build that takes that 5 point +20% trait, kindof makes cha the second most important over dex.

frivoli

Action Rush: Your encounter Powers have a 15% chance to grant 3/6/9/12/15% of your Action Point

15% * 15% = 2.25%. Every Encounter power used recharges 2.25% of your APs... which isn't a whole lot. I would categorize this feat under 'useless'. The capstone of Scoundrel is also kind of useless... so I'd say only go up to tier 3 (or even tier 2 if you want to take Duelist's Frenzy as your main AW) and diversify.

casia345

frivoli wrote: »

Action Rush: Your encounter Powers have a 15% chance to grant 3/6/9/12/15% of your Action Point

15% * 15% = 2.25%. Every Encounter power used recharges 2.25% of your APs... which isn't a whole lot. I would categorize this feat under 'useless'. The capstone of Scoundrel is also kind of useless... so I'd say only go up to tier 3 (or even tier 2 if you want to take Duelist's Frenzy as your main AW) and diversify.

yeah. I skipped both the two top tiers of scoundrel. as you note. 15% chance for 15% is pretty bad already. but then consider cooldowns. wicked reminder, sure. spamming every 5s but if you are running dazing strike 10s cd, and lashing blade 20s cd, then its really terrible. and that end cap 15% damage on one encounter out of stealth is really only viable on lashing as it is. (dazing strike is ok with it).
that said.. the end cap is ok. not amazing. overrun critical is obviously the best, by a large large margin. but, +action point 10% gain dealing CA, 20% more AP while stealthed , stealth on daily. 6% damage after stealth for 6s.
Lets you spam lurkers pretty frequently. going right back into stealth.

I run dazing, lashing and impossible to catch. however, shadowstrike for damage/stealth instead of impossible to catch would be very effective.
You should be able to get that +15% damage to lashing pretty much every lashing Cd.

not to hijack. but since, I mentioned it, and didn't want to make a full thread.
glorious human master race. +3 feats is pretty good.

5/5 action advantage
3/3 weapon mastery
3/3 cunning ambusher
3/3 endless assualt
3/5 twilight adept
3/3 scoundrel training
3/3 disc of str
imp cunning sneak is great for leveling. 1s extra stealth is really nice. but at 60 getting in and out of stealth is key. we have 2 feats that increase damage AFTER stealth. making stealth last longer doesnt help that.

5/5 underhanded
5/5 nimble blade
5/5 mocking knave
5/5 catspaw style. (both tier 3s, skipping t4.) I admittedly do not really know how this "doesn't stack: works with everything.

5/5 cunning stalker
5/5 dazzling blades

I actually stick with sly flourish.

senseijohn

For Bait and Switch in PvP... yes, there ARE better options, but it can be put to good use.

You see an AoE coming, instead of dodging use BnS and get free AP as well as free dodge. This allows you to throw up lurkers or execution more often.

noroblad

I am not sure how the AP work. 2.25% faster would stink, but is that really what this says?

shytbyrd

Then you find out that in dungeons you are constantly moving to avoid the little red circles wasting away at your stealth. Murphy says once you pop Lurkers and Stealth you will have to dodge the biggest red circle you have ever seen, see Mad Dragon for details. Hate that.

casia345

shytbyrd wrote: »

Then you find out that in dungeons you are constantly moving to avoid the little red circles wasting away at your stealth. Murphy says once you pop Lurkers and Stealth you will have to dodge the biggest red circle you have ever seen, see Mad Dragon for details. Hate that.

haha yeah that is true.
there is where impossible to catch comes into play. and can actually be a dps boost. since, you can avoid having to back out at all often.

e11z

I go for a similar style - try to keep up stealth for as long as possible.

But I am focused on pvp more then pve. And I rely on timing all the skills and Shadow strike.

Also for the OP - the pvp set has 20% more stealth meter.

Also, I heard a rumour that recovery Helps with the regen of the stealth meter?

Can anyone confirm this?

kikoodutroa8

I don't think "Underhand Tactic" is that good, though that depends on how the math works, which I am unsure of.
On my rogue with 16 CHA, combat advantage is around +20% dmg, so Underhand Tactic = an overwhelming +4% damage.
Unless you really want to min/max your dmg output at the cost of anything else, there are better points investments.

Of course I could be entirely wrong, the maths in this game being quite cryptic, heeheehee.

dasblackman

I play a Sab rogue so my build is pretty similar. I actually have higher cha than dex and strength is my lowest. I'm all about getting combat advangtage, which causes crits anyway, and more cha equals more damage. Of course this means I'm not the highest dps in a dungeon, but it means I always take the least damage and can rez anyone who goes down. 95% of my time is spent in stealth so it's less work for the healer and a smaller, but consistent source of damage. Of course a lot of rogues out dps me and call me garbage, but I like my build for what it is, being stealthy and maximizing damage that can't immediately be given back to you. Also, the extra cha means greater deflect so when I do get hit, I'm taking less damage overall. Of course I can still get destroyed if I screw up, but it keeps me on my toes.

leonf25

dasblackman wrote: »

I play a Sab rogue so my build is pretty similar. I actually have higher cha than dex and strength is my lowest. I'm all about getting combat advangtage, which causes crits anyway, and more cha equals more damage. Of course this means I'm not the highest dps in a dungeon, but it means I always take the least damage and can rez anyone who goes down. 95% of my time is spent in stealth so it's less work for the healer and a smaller, but consistent source of damage. Of course a lot of rogues out dps me and call me garbage, but I like my build for what it is, being stealthy and maximizing damage that can't immediately be given back to you. Also, the extra cha means greater deflect so when I do get hit, I'm taking less damage overall. Of course I can still get destroyed if I screw up, but it keeps me on my toes.

This is a very eloquently put reason for this build, this is the reason I decided to start this thread. One of the main reasons for Wicked Reminder instead of Lashing Blade is to provide overall higher damage from a group, not individually. I've played enough games as a rogue to know that a lot of people will opt out for highest individual damage to brag about it, but I wanted to throw out this option to people more interested in coordinated play.

Same goes for Impossible to Catch, only on defensive front. Less damage taken + less movement = less healing + more damage = easier group progression.

Remember, you do 0 DPS if you're dead.

xzadurate

hey, just curious. if anyone has considered a Hybrid rogue = optimizing deflect / crit / CA - with halfling race +2 dex +2 cha = 15% deflection chance and 13% crit chance at lvl 1. that is of course going 18 dex - 18 cha - 12 str.. and thats without campfire buff. and since rogues have naturally high dps with their skills / gear. i figured going deflect to mitigate dps in pvp / pve would not only help but be more beneficial overall. and not only that gaining alot of combat advantage through cha completely cancels out the fact you have no points in strength witch makes a tanky but still bursty rogue = win win situation for a already squishy rogue.

and also with the ( deflection ) - and i heard deflection doesn't Diminish as badly as other stats do, also using the feats in 1/2/3% deflect chance + max lvl 60 with ability score = 32% deflection chance.. without having any deflection stats. witch means you can easly reach 50-60%+ deflection chance - witch is ridiculous imo..


sure you might lose abit of dps, but to deflect / mitigate in pvp another rogues crit. 3-4-5 maybe more times in a row. would seem to strong

this build would mainly be focused on pvp. but for pve also solo'ing this would be amazing + instances so you dont get 1-2shot. = a dead rogue is a rogue with no dps = win

This in my opinion ( is only my thoughts on paper i have not currently used it to its full potential ) but if it works how I'm expecting it to. i think it will be the best - all round build for a rogue end of story.

any thought's on this?

frivoli

Question... if you run Bait n Switch AND Shadow Strike... is it possible to stay in stealth permanently?

frivoli

At first I wanted to make a Scoundrel rogue... but then after doing the math, it isn't worth it. Here's why:

Capstone: Encounter power after Stealth deals +15% Damage. As stated before, the main damage doesn't come from Encounter powers so this feat is kinda pointless.

Tier 4:
15% chance of +15% Action Points on Encounter powers; works out to ~2.25% AP per power use.
Buff Whirlwind and Courage Breaker... useless Dailies

Tier 3:
+10% Damage to Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel. Good feats if you want to use these powers.
Blitz and Dazing Strike shred Armour by 10%. Could be good.

Tier 2:
Impossible to Catch gives +10% Power (for up to 5s, not a lot)
35% chance to deal +20% dmg on a non critical: starts at +7% dmg bonus per attack and that value GOES DOWN as your crit % goes up.

Tier 1: +20% Combat Advantage effectiveness. If you have Charisma 25 (which is pushing it) that's a 45% * 20% = 9%, which is decent. Anything lower than that and it's useless.

leonf25

frivoli wrote: »

Question... if you run Bait n Switch AND Shadow Strike... is it possible to stay in stealth permanently?

You can come close to it with Tenacious Concealment and a Swashbuckling set bonus if you time it right. Biggest issue is the teleporting/major aoe bosses, but you need to adjust powers accordingly (see OP)

leonf25

frivoli wrote: »

At first I wanted to make a Scoundrel rogue... but then after doing the math, it isn't worth it. Here's why:

Capstone: Encounter power after Stealth deals +15% Damage. As stated before, the main damage doesn't come from Encounter powers so this feat is kinda pointless.

Tier 4:
15% chance of +15% Action Points on Encounter powers; works out to ~2.25% AP per power use.
Buff Whirlwind and Courage Breaker... useless Dailies

Tier 3:
+10% Damage to Sly Flourish and Cloud of Steel. Good feats if you want to use these powers.
Blitz and Dazing Strike shred Armour by 10%. Could be good.

Tier 2:
Impossible to Catch gives +10% Power (for up to 5s, not a lot)
35% chance to deal +20% dmg on a non critical: starts at +7% dmg bonus per attack and that value GOES DOWN as your crit % goes up.

Tier 1: +20% Combat Advantage effectiveness. If you have Charisma 25 (which is pushing it) that's a 45% * 20% = 9%, which is decent. Anything lower than that and it's useless.

I am not sure what your point is. You made uselessness of feats that I explicitly didn't pick explicit. You also mention the math you've done, I haven't see any of that. Can you elaborate?

frivoli

Of the powers you DID pick, only the +10% to your AWs (T3) and the +20% CA (T1) are useful. So I think you should either only dip in 5 pts for the T1 or go for the T3 and 'waste' the 5 pts you'd spend on T2.

Tier 4: 15% * 15% (aka 0.15*0.15) = 2.25% (aka 0.025). Basically, every Encounter power you use grants the equivalent of 2.25% of your Action Points.

Tier 2: 35% * 20* (aka 0.35 * 0.2) = 7% (aka 0.07). Every non-critical attack's damage is increased by the equivalent of 7%. You only proc this feat when you don't critical which means you multiply by the INVERSE of your critical chance. For example, if you have 15% Critical it would be 85% * 7% = 5.95%.

frivoli

OK here we go, Saboteur vs. Scoundrel. I am assuming a dip into the level 1 of the other tree and a level 1 dip into Exocutioner so those stats are ignored.

Full Saboteur:
+20% Dodge
+10% Run Speed
+5% Defense
+10% Damage

Full Scoundrel:
+2.5% Action Points
+16% Damage

2/3:
+20% Dodge
+16% Damage

3/2:
+20% Dodge
+10% Run
+5% Defense
+6% Damage

Full scoundrel is out - the tier 4 feat is just bad. The 3/2 build loses out against the Full Saboteur. So it's basically between Full Saboteur or 2/3. Breakdown of those two:

Full Sab:
+10% Run Speed
+5% Defense

2/3:
+6% Damage

It's a difference of two points which amounts to either (1) defense and utility or (2) extra damage. I don't see either option being numerically superior to the other, it depends on personal preference.

d4rkh4n

frivoli wrote: »

Action Rush: Your encounter Powers have a 15% chance to grant 3/6/9/12/15% of your Action Point

15% * 15% = 2.25%. Every Encounter power used recharges 2.25% of your APs... which isn't a whole lot. I would categorize this feat under 'useless'. The capstone of Scoundrel is also kind of useless... so I'd say only go up to tier 3 (or even tier 2 if you want to take Duelist's Frenzy as your main AW) and diversify.

What ****ing planet are you from? Nfc what your talking about, skill is friggin amazing, if it procs on all the skills, there you go..10 sec cd on new daily after you used it the first time.
Playing as scoundrel spec since start, with full t2 gear, out dps'ing executioner specs, when Action Rush procs only one time, you see a good chunk of action points getting gained. Totally worth it