If you have 2 clerics in your group you're giving up crowd control/DPS to gain something... because let's be clear, clerics are not even remotely close to top DPSs in a group. In this case what you gain by getting 2 clerics it's called survivability.
You will clear the boss not as fast as if you had 4 DPSs, but you'll be doing it more safely.
I don't see the issue here.
No you give up a tank and gain 1 healers and 5 tanks.
Double Astral Shields makes people unkillable in pvp. With pvp being based on holding points, astral shield fits pretty perfectly with the nodes. My GWF's attack reduces defense but Astral Shields adds straight damage migitation.
Considering everyone has similiar HP at 60 and the pvp gear gives all the classes similiar health. It makes even the supposed weak survival class CW OP.
I'm an 11k GS cleric and I only run with my guild group where I am the only healer, and Astral Shield seems necessary due to the mob damage. However, when I do pugs and we bring 2 clerics, it's a complete joke at how little damage everyone is taking and how you can stand in absolutely everything. It's hard to deny that this goes against the spirit of the game where you can stand in all the red circles and have anyone tank mobs indefinitely.
Astral Shield simply needs a damage cap on how much damage it can reduce. That would still let it help you reduce the physical damage from monsters effectively, but wouldn't allow you to stand in all the red circles and still live.
Yup, this is what I'm talking about. I don't give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if you have ONE blue shield, but double shield is just plain stupid.
Double Astral Shields makes people unkillable in pvp.
Astral Shield stays where it is laid, if somebody gets knocked out of the astral shield then they can be focused. Clerics abilities generally provide support in an AoE or cause an enemy to heal allies in one way or another. If a Cleric gets knocked out the AoEs then they can be focused. Also it's fecking Control Points, if 2 clerics are holding a single point then there is 2 other points that can be taken and clerics aren't a high damage class so they'd need a 3rd person near them to be a major threat.
To me this complaining is literally nothing more than learn to play issues.
Astral Shield is 20% DR base, +10% for each power point (so, rank 3 is 40% damage reduction). That alone is quite high for a single ability that has 100% uptime and also heals everyone for 1,000~ (in T2 gear) per second if used with divinity.
I agree that it shouldn't be able to stack, and that is probably the biggest issue with it. Since it's additive, 2 Clerics are bringing you up to 80% damage reduction. Add the Foresight passive on to that (11% with feats), and you're up at 91% damage reduced permanently. That's just ridiculous!
Astral Shield itself is still very powerful, even if you only have one. I don't expect many changes to it though, considering that it would requiring a lot of rebalancing of the game if it were to get nerfed, as it is the only ability preventing your party from getting one shot by some of the mobs in T2 dungeons.
40% still feels low when you have only the one shield with how hard trash hits in this game.
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
No, Rift took a giant **** in two months because the game sucked. The pvp was terrible, the pve was non-existent, and the developers never did anything to fix it. It wasn't about people discussing class balancing.
Also, I play a GF and I don't feel like any 1 ability removes my "class purpose" from a group. I can still tank, I still hold threat, and I still do it better than any other class. My only real concern is if I will be needed for the higher 60+ content. I know warriors in Tera were pretty much laughed at when it came to "tanking" any hard content...so I wonder if GF is the end all to tanking pve?
rift also had no dungeon queue system, gated gear progression and a functional holy trinity. the lack of the queue turned crowded servers into ghost towns after the first month, requiring them to put in the free server transfer system at the same time.
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xantrisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Before we got bored and stopped playing, my group won over 70 pvp matches in a row without a single loss. We also did the majority of the T2 content straight away in the pvp gear we earned. The players in my group were all fairly good so it was no surprise that with this double astral shield we were unbeatable, as it was an uphill fight vs us anyways. We have won several 1000-0s vs non afks. The thing is broken beyond belief and pve was the most boring thing I have taken in part in because I didnt have to think, just spam some keys on my rogue because I was immortal anyways.
Astral Shield needs a nerf for pvp. It mitigates too much damage and with the divinity heal, it makes anyone in the field unkilllable. When other classes fight, dodging and using abilities at the correct time actually matters. With the cleric, if he throws down astral shield on a capture point, as a GWF or Rogue, you have no chance, nothing in your kit can do anything about it, the cleric can literally just stand there. He can even go grab a snack and come back and still be fine. The duration on astral shield is too long and the reduction too high. Astral shield would be fine if all classes have at least one ability to counter it even if it means having to switch abilities to fight it specifically but that is not the case. Some recommendations would be like reducing the amount of damage each player can absorb to cap, lowing the amount of reduction, or making it so that players become immune to all damage but with a lower duration. This way, the timing and game play actually matters instead of this area is invulnerable pretty much forever.
I assume this is a PvP complaint, because I can't see why it's a problem for PvE.
I don't care if the skill is nerfed for PvP, but I have no interest in seeing its PvE effectiveness reduced.
Same goes for that horrid Rogue daily.
No, it's also a PvE fix. The presence of a tank inside an instance becomes optional the moment you can just grab an extra cleric to stack astral shield.
Not to mention taunt and threat doesn't work as they should.
AS is good but that is only if the DC is in the circle, even with two stacked in pvp, a DC requires to constantly run around to not die in pvp. Moreover many other classes have counters that can easily kill a DC or single a DC out if theres two of them. GF can knock a DC out of the circle, a TR at level 60 actually killed my DC with one hit (90% hp with full pvp gear) and CW can easily get a DC hp down to around 20% within 5 seconds even in the circle, and the constant control of CW often makes the DC unable to lay out the circle. There are many ways to counter DC, just gotta know how to play. At above level 30 and below lv60 pvp bracket, i agree that even with one single DC is hard to kill, but at level 60, DC usually runs side to side in the circle (so as not to die as fast) and do cheap shots to gain divinity
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mustangf12Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Its not like there are no counters to it in pvp anyway. A GF/control wizard/another cleric can just send them flying out of the shielded zone. Then you go crazy on them once they're out of protection. A rogue with good timing can prevent a cleric from setting up another shield after one expires with dazing strike, smoke bomb or some other ability - if he doesn't decide to simply oneshot the cleric, that is.
I went into pvp once with a team of 5 clerics. We stacked our shields on each capture point.
A rogue could still oneshot us through 5 stacked divine astral shields and hallowed ground.
Don't nerf the shield. Nerf rogues.
seriously guys stop being immature scrubs, shield stacking is freaking lame and a bug be prepared to a fix
exploiters those day, they call it feature...
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kerlaaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Ohhhh, I see, so when you can exploit a mechanic to make things easier it doesn't need to be fixed. It just makes players "bad players".
This is seriously the argument your going with? GTFO with that weak nonsense.
Oh yes just like the TR skills that was bypassing armor rating and crit'n for god loads of damage. And then all the TR started crying that they got hit with an inv nerf bat when it was fixed.
Rogues cant one shot with their daily. Granted it does do a lot of damage, it does not kill someone with full health because the damage is based on missing health. When fighting a rogue, you can dodge and block to prevent a lot of damage. You can take zero damage even if you're good at reading his abilities. This is not the case with Astral shield. Once astral shield is down, the fight is pretty much over, especially for the GWF and Rogue who don't have anything to counter it. The Cleric will more than likely get off Astral Shield before the rogue can supposedly one shot him. And if Astral Shield was a daily like the rogue having to use his daily to even attempt to win against Astral shield, it probably wouldn't be so broken as it is now in pvp.
pvp concern also. have you tried killing players with 2x shield on them? yeah, my gwf with 6 epics including weapon hits 100s on them. they're practically impossible to kill.
If there was a combination of characters that invalidated your own preferred class would you call for a fix?
Say, 2x guardians could put a 300% steady damage buff and debuff on mobs. Essentially removing the need for any other DPS. would you want that resolved?
Say, 2x CW's could provide some sort of Life on hit that healed people for 500% of applied dmg per hit...so now you don't really need heals. Would you call for a fix?
Say if rogues could spec there amazing DPS daily into a spammable AoE skill with 2 of them. Essentially mowing down dungeons eliminating any type of options for a GWF would you call for a fix?
IMHO whenever you have something that invalidates another class in a group it needs balance.
I mean as it is now, High end runs (Castle Never), the preferred grouping is 2 DC, 2CW, and a GWF, maybe a rogue (probably not though).
The game WILL get balanced. This skill will likely become non-stackable or stackable with HUGE diminishing returns.
I fully expect that there will be nerfs and buffs incoming, but I do feel strongly that this will be one that comes sooner rather than later. So, use it and exploit it while you can lol.
seriously guys stop being immature scrubs, shield stacking is freaking lame and a bug be prepared to a fix
exploiters those day, they call it feature...
ok, i'll agree with you just as soon as the nerf TR's and CW's that can one shot me at will w/o my shield. I'll agree with you when i don't pull every mob west of the mississippi delta every time i cast a heal regardless of weather the tank is hitting it or not
ok, i'll agree with you just as soon as the nerf TR's and CW's that can one shot me at will w/o my shield. I'll agree with you when i don't pull every mob west of the mississippi delta every time i cast a heal regardless of weather the tank is hitting it or not
You tell them!
We are using this to circumvent the BROKEN system that exists. Fix the issues causing us to prefer 2 DC parties and you can fix/nerf all you want. We're not doing this cause we hate GF or want it easy-mode... It's because the dungeon ads are... a pita.
How, exactly, does a great defense boost invalidate a tank?
Seems to me it makes them need an S on their chest :cool:
Now, if they could just pull some more aggro so I'm not always in the role of a bacon covered cat in a pack of dogs...
Edit
1 - Are rogues and CWs really for a nerf to large damage mitigation buffs from another player?
2 - Nerf damage mitigation, must include an even greater heal buff; since mitigation > heal...
I honestly can't say I can ever remember people calling for a nerf that severely cripples themselves too...
2 Clerics 2 CW 1 Rogue is probably the ideal set up for almost every dungeon atm. The exception being Chartilifax and probably some bosses in Castle Never(not been yet), There are some encounters where you just want a "tank" on the boss who can survive with almost no heals and plink away the bosses HP while the rest of the group deals with the adds that spawn amd help dps boss during add downtime.
Stacking shields is silly, almost every buff in the game doesn't stack, the exception being the cleric blue shield. If they removed shield stacking the upsides of bringing a GF: More dps, better control, can survive hard hitting mobs, would easily outweigh another DC as their heals don't stack anyway. CW,TR, and DC being able to face-tank bosses and lots of adds by standing stationary inside a double Astral shield can not be an intended strategy by the developers and I expect a fix very soon. Shame that so many groups completed content that they should not have by exploiting this setup.
I can't argue with people wanting to beat encounters using any method possible, hell I was an advocate of class stacking in 10man heroics during Cataclysm to get server firsts. But you have to admit, in a non competitive PvE environment such as Neverwinter, by cheeseing encounters you are only cheating yourself out of challenging content to complete. I feel a lot of the groups cheesing encounters in this way are doing it not for the enjoyment of beating it, but for monetary gain by selling rare tier items they get from the harder dungeons on the AH.
We can't say for sure that the shield's damage mitigation needs a nerf. The first step must be to have the shield no longer stack with the shields of other clerics. Once that is fixed, then we can see whether or not a single shield is too powerful.
-Travail.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
The games been out 16 ****ing days and you are already calling for nerfs? People like you are the reason Rift took a giant **** in 2 months. STFU and play the game, you dont like it...go outside, put a bucket on your head..and run into a tree for awhile, knock some sense into you.
/flip
^^^^^^ This x100 I used to lead a guild in rift ppl should really stop crying for nerfs when they dont understand wth is going on..
You know you can KNOCK ppl out of the shield on the ground rite?
Learn how to play the **** game instead of crying nerf for everything.
As far as stacking the shirld ok maybe thats alittle tp powerful but really our shield is our Main thing without that shield clerics are pretty **** in all honesty.. So If you are going to nerf the shield you better give a huge *** buff to the other cleric abilities.
If putting two Astral Shield on the same location provides 40%+40% damage reduction then it needs to be nerfed, mitigating 74% (guessing it stacks multiplicatively) is too much.
That being said fix the stupid healing debuff on self heals to kick in only when soloing and buff aoe threat on GF/GWF, otherwise having two clerics will be a better option anyway: one to tank adds and the other to heal the first one.
^^^^^^ This x100 I used to lead a guild in rift ppl should really stop crying for nerfs when they dont understand wth is going on..
You know you can KNOCK ppl out of the shield on the ground rite?
Learn how to play the **** game instead of crying nerf for everything.
As far as stacking the shirld ok maybe thats alittle tp powerful but really our shield is our Main thing without that shield clerics are pretty **** in all honesty.. So If you are going to nerf the shield you better give a huge *** buff to the other cleric abilities.
Lol rift. I was in rift beta two hit killing people on my warrior, so i don't know what bringing up rift means. Plus guild leader status is, make guild, random invite people, done.
Odd you say learn to knock people out, when your the class with the shield and has an aoe knockback.
In the event there were clerics stacking AS. If you were one of the few classes with a decent knockback, you would have to kill someone within those 2 seconds they run back, dodge, teleport in it (counting the knockback power did minimal damage cuz it was in shield). You would also have to burst though either both the clerics heals or one if it was a cleric you knocked out. In that amount of time your whole team is usually dead from the godlike people in the shield.
Comments
No you give up a tank and gain 1 healers and 5 tanks.
Considering everyone has similiar HP at 60 and the pvp gear gives all the classes similiar health. It makes even the supposed weak survival class CW OP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no2VSQtZXPk
Yup, this is what I'm talking about. I don't give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if you have ONE blue shield, but double shield is just plain stupid.
Astral Shield stays where it is laid, if somebody gets knocked out of the astral shield then they can be focused. Clerics abilities generally provide support in an AoE or cause an enemy to heal allies in one way or another. If a Cleric gets knocked out the AoEs then they can be focused. Also it's fecking Control Points, if 2 clerics are holding a single point then there is 2 other points that can be taken and clerics aren't a high damage class so they'd need a 3rd person near them to be a major threat.
To me this complaining is literally nothing more than learn to play issues.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
<Rarely Sober> - Beholder
40% still feels low when you have only the one shield with how hard trash hits in this game.
rift also had no dungeon queue system, gated gear progression and a functional holy trinity. the lack of the queue turned crowded servers into ghost towns after the first month, requiring them to put in the free server transfer system at the same time.
Bingo, people trying to justify it are just being silly.
No, it's also a PvE fix. The presence of a tank inside an instance becomes optional the moment you can just grab an extra cleric to stack astral shield.
Not to mention taunt and threat doesn't work as they should.
I went into pvp once with a team of 5 clerics. We stacked our shields on each capture point.
A rogue could still oneshot us through 5 stacked divine astral shields and hallowed ground.
Don't nerf the shield. Nerf rogues.
seriously guys stop being immature scrubs, shield stacking is freaking lame and a bug be prepared to a fix
exploiters those day, they call it feature...
Oh yes just like the TR skills that was bypassing armor rating and crit'n for god loads of damage. And then all the TR started crying that they got hit with an inv nerf bat when it was fixed.
Aggro system invalidates GF class.
Healing threat invalidates GF class.
Dungeon Queue being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> invalidates GF class.
I'm already losing patience with the t2 dungeons and have given up ever pugging those, don't give me more reasons to quit on it.
I'm not sitting there all day wasting dungeon delve waiting for a GF.
Who, when he arrives, cannot hold mobs and even sometimes boss off of me.
So no, thank you, and to hell with everyone calling for nerfs already. Chill and think before you speak.
If there was a combination of characters that invalidated your own preferred class would you call for a fix?
Say, 2x guardians could put a 300% steady damage buff and debuff on mobs. Essentially removing the need for any other DPS. would you want that resolved?
Say, 2x CW's could provide some sort of Life on hit that healed people for 500% of applied dmg per hit...so now you don't really need heals. Would you call for a fix?
Say if rogues could spec there amazing DPS daily into a spammable AoE skill with 2 of them. Essentially mowing down dungeons eliminating any type of options for a GWF would you call for a fix?
IMHO whenever you have something that invalidates another class in a group it needs balance.
I mean as it is now, High end runs (Castle Never), the preferred grouping is 2 DC, 2CW, and a GWF, maybe a rogue (probably not though).
The game WILL get balanced. This skill will likely become non-stackable or stackable with HUGE diminishing returns.
I fully expect that there will be nerfs and buffs incoming, but I do feel strongly that this will be one that comes sooner rather than later. So, use it and exploit it while you can lol.
ok, i'll agree with you just as soon as the nerf TR's and CW's that can one shot me at will w/o my shield. I'll agree with you when i don't pull every mob west of the mississippi delta every time i cast a heal regardless of weather the tank is hitting it or not
You tell them!
We are using this to circumvent the BROKEN system that exists. Fix the issues causing us to prefer 2 DC parties and you can fix/nerf all you want. We're not doing this cause we hate GF or want it easy-mode... It's because the dungeon ads are... a pita.
Seems to me it makes them need an S on their chest :cool:
Now, if they could just pull some more aggro so I'm not always in the role of a bacon covered cat in a pack of dogs...
Edit
1 - Are rogues and CWs really for a nerf to large damage mitigation buffs from another player?
2 - Nerf damage mitigation, must include an even greater heal buff; since mitigation > heal...
I honestly can't say I can ever remember people calling for a nerf that severely cripples themselves too...
Stacking shields is silly, almost every buff in the game doesn't stack, the exception being the cleric blue shield. If they removed shield stacking the upsides of bringing a GF: More dps, better control, can survive hard hitting mobs, would easily outweigh another DC as their heals don't stack anyway. CW,TR, and DC being able to face-tank bosses and lots of adds by standing stationary inside a double Astral shield can not be an intended strategy by the developers and I expect a fix very soon. Shame that so many groups completed content that they should not have by exploiting this setup.
I can't argue with people wanting to beat encounters using any method possible, hell I was an advocate of class stacking in 10man heroics during Cataclysm to get server firsts. But you have to admit, in a non competitive PvE environment such as Neverwinter, by cheeseing encounters you are only cheating yourself out of challenging content to complete. I feel a lot of the groups cheesing encounters in this way are doing it not for the enjoyment of beating it, but for monetary gain by selling rare tier items they get from the harder dungeons on the AH.
-Travail.
^^^^^^ This x100 I used to lead a guild in rift ppl should really stop crying for nerfs when they dont understand wth is going on..
You know you can KNOCK ppl out of the shield on the ground rite?
Learn how to play the **** game instead of crying nerf for everything.
As far as stacking the shirld ok maybe thats alittle tp powerful but really our shield is our Main thing without that shield clerics are pretty **** in all honesty.. So If you are going to nerf the shield you better give a huge *** buff to the other cleric abilities.
That being said fix the stupid healing debuff on self heals to kick in only when soloing and buff aoe threat on GF/GWF, otherwise having two clerics will be a better option anyway: one to tank adds and the other to heal the first one.
Lol rift. I was in rift beta two hit killing people on my warrior, so i don't know what bringing up rift means. Plus guild leader status is, make guild, random invite people, done.
Odd you say learn to knock people out, when your the class with the shield and has an aoe knockback.
In the event there were clerics stacking AS. If you were one of the few classes with a decent knockback, you would have to kill someone within those 2 seconds they run back, dodge, teleport in it (counting the knockback power did minimal damage cuz it was in shield). You would also have to burst though either both the clerics heals or one if it was a cleric you knocked out. In that amount of time your whole team is usually dead from the godlike people in the shield.