Really? being able to buy gear off real money trading sites makes a game pay to win?
I think most people use an operative definition of the phrase "pay to win" to encompass situations where the company creates a pay $ to succeed framework baked into the game. Sorta like a "spend $" button on the UI.
Yes it does.
The claim is that being able to buy gear for money is Pay 2 Win. So why is it any different if the gear if you are paying other players to win and not the company?
I think most people use an operative definition of the phrase "pay to win" to encompass situations where the company creates a pay $ to succeed framework baked into the game. Sorta like a "spend $" button on the UI.
IMO, "pay to win" means putting things into your Cash Shop that allow an "edge" in-game over those who don't pay. I think it's pretty much undeniable that buying weapon & armor enchantments in the Cash Shop gives you an edge over those who don't do so & spend hours & hours farming for their stuff. After all, "time is money, friend."
When you can buy Zen with real money, then convert Zen into Astral Diamonds with which you can buy end-game gear on the AH, that is "pay to win." That is what PWE is doing now.
If your Cash Shop only ever contains cosmetic stuff, & you don't provide any method of converting Cash Shop currency to in-game currency, that's not "pay to win." That is not all that PWE is doing now.
IMO, most of the Cash Shop wouldn't be an issue if you used in-game GOLD to buy stuff from the AH.
Fare you well
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
The claim is that being able to buy gear for money is Pay 2 Win. So why is it any different if the gear if you are paying other players to win and not the company?
One is a problem because it's encouraged by the company and the other is a problem because it's not actively prevented. Personally, I see them to be quite different if only because preventing what is happening in PoE would require insane work from GGG (and this translates into $ they have to spend) and they appear morally opposed to charging players for in game power.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
IMO, "pay to win" means putting things into your Cash Shop that allow an "edge" in-game over those who don't pay. I think it's pretty much undeniable that buying weapon & armor enchantments in the Cash Shop gives you an edge over those who don't do so & spend hours & hours farming for their stuff. After all, "time is money, friend."
When you can buy Zen with real money, then convert Zen into Astral Diamonds with which you can buy end-game gear on the AH, that is "pay to win." That is what PWE is doing now.
If your Cash Shop only ever contains cosmetic stuff, & you don't provide any method of converting Cash Shop currency to in-game currency, that's not "pay to win." That is not all that PWE is doing now.
IMO, most of the Cash Shop wouldn't be an issue if you used in-game GOLD to buy stuff from the AH.
Pretty much.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
IMO, "pay to win" means putting things into your Cash Shop that allow an "edge" in-game over those who don't pay. I think it's pretty much undeniable that buying weapon & armor enchantments in the Cash Shop gives you an edge over those who don't do so & spend hours & hours farming for their stuff. After all, "time is money, friend."
When you can buy Zen with real money, then convert Zen into Astral Diamonds with which you can buy end-game gear on the AH, that is "pay to win." That is what PWE is doing now.
If your Cash Shop only ever contains cosmetic stuff, & you don't provide any method of converting Cash Shop currency to in-game currency, that's not "pay to win." That is not all that PWE is doing now.
IMO, most of the Cash Shop wouldn't be an issue if you used in-game GOLD to buy stuff from the AH.
In ten years of mmorpg, no single game has been able to stop people from buying advantage, legal or not. Don't bash them if they decided they sell what pirates would sell otherwise. You're problem, with prices, with the fact there's cash shop, with unbalance come because there's people who wants to pay to have an easier time. Thats the real issue, as long as people will want to pay theres always someone willing to sell. No MMO is above this.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
One is a problem because it's encouraged by the company and the other is a problem because it's not actively prevented. Personally, I see them to be quite different if only because preventing what is happening in PoE would require insane work from GGG (and this translates into $ they have to spend) and they appear morally opposed to charging players for in game power.
I don't actually see it as a problem. If people are going to spend X dollars on some item from the game and do so routinely I think the company should go ahead and make that money rather than see it go off to third parties.
So why is it any different if the gear if you are paying other players to win and not the company?
Because I'm not here to interact in-game with a company, & because, IMO, gold-selling is bad whether it's done by third-party sites or the company itself. & make no mistake: the ability to buy Zen & convert it to Astral Diamonds is gold-selling.
Fare you well
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
Because I'm not here to interact in-game with a company, & because, IMO, gold-selling is bad whether it's done by third-party sites or the company itself. & make no mistake: the ability to buy Zen & convert it to Astral Diamonds is gold-selling.
I don't actually see it as a problem. If people are going to spend X dollars on some item from the game and do so routinely I think the company should go ahead and make that money rather than see it go off to third parties.
I think it would be perfectly reasonable as long as 1 player could not turn a cash shop purchase into in game currency.
Why do you think they gave huge piles of AD away with packs? It's to encourage high prices. Look at the ingame vendor AD prices sometime. Isn't it like 2 mil for blue armor? AH will get you an epic chest for 50k. PWE obviously wanted more of a demand for AD.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
You're problem, with prices, with the fact there's cash shop, with unbalance come because there's people who wants to pay to have an easier time. Thats the real issue, as long as people will want to pay theres always someone willing to sell. No MMO is above this.
Actually, that's true: my issue is absolutely with lazy, unmotivated people who would rather buy Zen & convert it to Astral Diamonds than play the game.
Whether this is something MMO companies can effectively mitigate or not is irrelevant to me: what's relevant is that MMO companies wouldn't have to, if MMO player "communities" weren't so full of people who have to pay real money for their in-game success.
Fare you well
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
You sound like the auction house is mandatory, I wasn't aware this was Neverwinter tycoon: 2013
And no, not everyone wants to, or feels they should have to flip items on the auction house like burgers before the market inevitably goes to pot.
And therein lies the issue - people who call this 'pay 2 win' don't want to have to work for anything, in game or in life. You don't have to spend money to get items, and you don't have to grind either, if you don't want to. But then, you won't see much results.
I think it would be perfectly reasonable as long as 1 player could not turn a cash shop purchase into in game currency.
Why do you think they gave huge piles of AD away with packs? It's to encourage high prices. Look at the ingame vendor AD prices sometime. Isn't it like 2 mil for blue armor? AH will get you an epic chest for 50k. PWE obviously wanted more of a demand for AD.
Selling zen is the only way for people to buy zen, its a 2 way deal. You allow everyone to have access to everything, while being able to make some money to run your game. If you dont like this there's underground less popular lower quality game or subscription based game with gold spammers. If you prefer to not be aware of whats happening in the background.
Where do you think people got the 100k AD to buy your pvp items? The leadership profession? Zen and the starter packs are an absolutely enormous influx of AD.
Where they got the AD from is completely irrelevant. The undeniable fact remains, I was able to buy one of the most expensive items in the zenshop, without using real money to do so, after a couple of days of farming.
The items in the zenshop is not in any way, shape or form exclusive to people that use real money to get zen.
Selling zen is the only way for people to buy zen, its a 2 way deal. You allow everyone to have access to everything, while being able to make some money to run your game. If you dont like this there's underground less popular lower quality game or subscription based game with gold spammers. If you prefer to not be aware of whats happening in the background.
If no one could buy AD with Zen then AH prices would be in the 10k-50k range instead of the 500k-1mil range.
Prices would be set by what people could get from quests. Please try and be realistic in your defense at least.
I'm not concerned at all with what's in the zen shop. I just find it laughable that you can conceivably get the best gear in game without ever even grouping with another player.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
Selling Zen, itself, is not the problem. Selling Zen & allowing it to be converted into Astral Diamonds, IMO, is the problem.
It wouldn't be a problem at all, if PWE had never created Astral Diamonds in the first place ..... I can't see a single reason for them. Seriously, how many currencies does a MMO need???
Fare you well
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
While technically correct, the sheer amount of time it takes to get these items makes it disingenuousness to suggest that it's a viable option. This isn't a situation where you can either pay money or do a reasonable amount of grind to earn it. This is like saying you can pay to fly a plane from NY to LA, or you can walk the distance on foot. With a severe ankle injury. And no shoes.
And dogs are chasing you.
And you have to do it blindfolded.
Sure you can do it, but advertising it as some sort of privilege is silly.
Whether you like it or not, the simple truth is that 'free to play with cash shop, plus cash shop currency to in-game currency conversion'-style games are the future. Even triple-A titles/developers/publishers have started doing it (e.g. ArenaNet/NCSoft with GW2).
You can fight it all you want, but it's a waste of effort. Either get over it and embrace it, or just don't even look at these games and find the few niche games that will employ a different business model.
0
terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Where they got the AD from is completely irrelevant. The undeniable fact remains, I was able to buy one of the most expensive items in the zenshop, without using real money to do so, after a couple of days of farming.
The items in the zenshop is not in any way, shape or form exclusive to people that use real money to get zen.
I keep seeing how impossible it is to get AD and yet I easily spent several hundred AD to buy something from the Auction House earlier this week and I didn't use any of the AD from being a guardian and have only transferred 50K of that to character and have more than double that left on the character after I made my purchase.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
hengyu1995Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
While technically correct, the sheer amount of time it takes to get these items makes it disingenuousness to suggest that it's a viable option. This isn't a situation where you can either pay money or do a reasonable amount of grind to earn it. This is like saying you can pay to fly a plane from NY to LA, or you can walk the distance on foot. With a severe ankle injury. And no shoes.
And dogs are chasing you.
And you have to do it blindfolded.
Sure you can do it, but advertising it as some sort of privilege is silly.
Could not have articulated my point better. This needs to be seen and understood by more people.
While I love the game, the people defending the cash model are getting really ridiculous with their arguments
Actually, that's true: my issue is absolutely with lazy, unmotivated people who would rather buy Zen & convert it to Astral Diamonds than play the game.
Whether this is something MMO companies can effectively mitigate or not is irrelevant to me: what's relevant is that MMO companies wouldn't have to, if MMO player "communities" weren't so full of people who have to pay real money for their in-game success.
I totally agree, i just prefer a game that grab the money around to develop the game instead of seeing pirates and Chinese cheap labour taking it. Their model is not perfect, but game has just been released it's super excitement. Cash shop price are high, i agree, but they gave you lot of AD, their model encourage people to play instead of only buying and run around with nothing to do after.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Whether you like it or not, the simple truth is that 'free to play with cash shop, plus cash shop currency to in-game currency conversion'-style games are the future. Even triple-A titles/developers/publishers have started doing it (e.g. ArenaNet/NCSoft with GW2).
You can fight it all you want, but it's a waste of effort. Either get over it and embrace it, or just don't even look at these games and find the few niche games that will employ a different business model.
Exactly game companies have basically given up trying to fight the external market in selling things and are attempting to benefit themselves from that market. It is the wave of the future and frankly is here forever.
Whether you like it or not, the simple truth is that 'free to play with cash shop, plus cash shop currency to in-game currency conversion'-style games are the future. Even triple-A titles/developers/publishers have started doing it (e.g. ArenaNet/NCSoft with GW2).
You can fight it all you want, but it's a waste of effort. Either get over it and embrace it, or just don't even look at these games and find the few niche games that will employ a different business model.
Is anyone even disputing that? I imagine most posters in this thread started off by addressing the OP's fairly ludicrous assertion that this isn't a pay to win game.
PWE makes pay to win games, that is approaching a universally held truth.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
Is anyone even disputing that? I imagine most posters in this thread started off by addressing the OP's fairly ludicrous assertion that this isn't a pay to win game.
PWE makes pay to win games, that is approaching a universally held truth.
According to what is Pay to win, your definition included game filled with gold spammers.
According to what is Pay to win, your definition included game filled with gold spammers.
No, not really. P2W, to me, requires the game be designed to encourage and facilitate the practice. I have a UI button that leads me to a page where I can spend money to get more powerful in game. Hugely different from gold spammers.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
Cash shop price are high, i agree, but they gave you lot of AD
PWE has not given me one single AD. I have 6,600, which I earned in-game.
Again, let me be clear.
A. I don't care about the ability to buy Zen with real money & use Zen to buy cosmetic stuff in the Zen store.
B. I don't like the fact that Astral Diamonds are the only currency usable on the AH, but I can deal with that.
C. I don't care that I can earn Astral Diamonds in-game, & convert them to Zen to buy things in the Zen Store.
D. What I care very much about is the ability to buy Zen, then convert to Astral Diamonds for use on the Auction House. I'm flatly stunned that people are defending that ability.
Beyond that, the idea that character respecs are only available in the Zen Store is, IMO, nearly offensive. I've never, ever heard of a MMO doing that, & I think it's a despicable cash grab, especially in a new game where you can bet your bottom dollar that people are going to make build mistakes through simple ignorance of game mechanics.
Fare you well
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
I don't know if you can say it's "p2w" but without even using that "slur"
Can anyone claim for a second they don't sell power?
Serious question, not leading into a troll, but it's something I think we need to start on as a BASIS of discussion.
The claim of selling power requires jumping through some hoops and squinting right. You won't find power available for sell in the Zen store. The convoluted arguement has to do with converting zen to AD and buying things.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
PWE has not given me one single AD. I have 6,600, which I earned in-game.
Again, let me be clear.
A. I don't care about the ability to buy Zen with real money & use Zen to buy cosmetic stuff in the Zen store.
B. I don't like the fact that Astral Diamonds are the only currency usable on the AH, but I can deal with that.
C. I don't care that I can earn Astral Diamonds in-game, & convert them to Zen to buy things in the Zen Store.
D. What I care very much about is the ability to buy Zen, then convert to Astral Diamonds for use on the Auction House. I'm flatly stunned that people are defending that ability.
Beyond that, the idea that character respecs are only available in the Zen Store is, IMO, nearly offensive. I've never, ever heard of a MMO doing that, & I think it's a despicable cash grab, especially in a new game where you can bet your bottom dollar that people are going to make build mistakes through simple ignorance of game mechanics.
We dont play the same game, i see 5 daily quest at 2k AD reward + x2 at this moment. Ignoring gear sold, leadership profession, prayer. If you can't make at the very least even starting at around level 20 not 60 about 20k AD per 4-5 hours sessions. You don't get this game mechanic, i would look at an other game.
Comments
Yes it does.
The claim is that being able to buy gear for money is Pay 2 Win. So why is it any different if the gear if you are paying other players to win and not the company?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
IMO, "pay to win" means putting things into your Cash Shop that allow an "edge" in-game over those who don't pay. I think it's pretty much undeniable that buying weapon & armor enchantments in the Cash Shop gives you an edge over those who don't do so & spend hours & hours farming for their stuff. After all, "time is money, friend."
When you can buy Zen with real money, then convert Zen into Astral Diamonds with which you can buy end-game gear on the AH, that is "pay to win." That is what PWE is doing now.
If your Cash Shop only ever contains cosmetic stuff, & you don't provide any method of converting Cash Shop currency to in-game currency, that's not "pay to win." That is not all that PWE is doing now.
IMO, most of the Cash Shop wouldn't be an issue if you used in-game GOLD to buy stuff from the AH.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
One is a problem because it's encouraged by the company and the other is a problem because it's not actively prevented. Personally, I see them to be quite different if only because preventing what is happening in PoE would require insane work from GGG (and this translates into $ they have to spend) and they appear morally opposed to charging players for in game power.
Pretty much.
In ten years of mmorpg, no single game has been able to stop people from buying advantage, legal or not. Don't bash them if they decided they sell what pirates would sell otherwise. You're problem, with prices, with the fact there's cash shop, with unbalance come because there's people who wants to pay to have an easier time. Thats the real issue, as long as people will want to pay theres always someone willing to sell. No MMO is above this.
I don't actually see it as a problem. If people are going to spend X dollars on some item from the game and do so routinely I think the company should go ahead and make that money rather than see it go off to third parties.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Because I'm not here to interact in-game with a company, & because, IMO, gold-selling is bad whether it's done by third-party sites or the company itself. & make no mistake: the ability to buy Zen & convert it to Astral Diamonds is gold-selling.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
Close your eyes, everything will be fine.
I think it would be perfectly reasonable as long as 1 player could not turn a cash shop purchase into in game currency.
Why do you think they gave huge piles of AD away with packs? It's to encourage high prices. Look at the ingame vendor AD prices sometime. Isn't it like 2 mil for blue armor? AH will get you an epic chest for 50k. PWE obviously wanted more of a demand for AD.
Actually, that's true: my issue is absolutely with lazy, unmotivated people who would rather buy Zen & convert it to Astral Diamonds than play the game.
Whether this is something MMO companies can effectively mitigate or not is irrelevant to me: what's relevant is that MMO companies wouldn't have to, if MMO player "communities" weren't so full of people who have to pay real money for their in-game success.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
And therein lies the issue - people who call this 'pay 2 win' don't want to have to work for anything, in game or in life. You don't have to spend money to get items, and you don't have to grind either, if you don't want to. But then, you won't see much results.
Selling zen is the only way for people to buy zen, its a 2 way deal. You allow everyone to have access to everything, while being able to make some money to run your game. If you dont like this there's underground less popular lower quality game or subscription based game with gold spammers. If you prefer to not be aware of whats happening in the background.
The items in the zenshop is not in any way, shape or form exclusive to people that use real money to get zen.
If no one could buy AD with Zen then AH prices would be in the 10k-50k range instead of the 500k-1mil range.
Prices would be set by what people could get from quests. Please try and be realistic in your defense at least.
I'm not concerned at all with what's in the zen shop. I just find it laughable that you can conceivably get the best gear in game without ever even grouping with another player.
Selling Zen, itself, is not the problem. Selling Zen & allowing it to be converted into Astral Diamonds, IMO, is the problem.
It wouldn't be a problem at all, if PWE had never created Astral Diamonds in the first place ..... I can't see a single reason for them. Seriously, how many currencies does a MMO need???
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
Quoted for the peeple saying we can grind it.
You can fight it all you want, but it's a waste of effort. Either get over it and embrace it, or just don't even look at these games and find the few niche games that will employ a different business model.
I keep seeing how impossible it is to get AD and yet I easily spent several hundred AD to buy something from the Auction House earlier this week and I didn't use any of the AD from being a guardian and have only transferred 50K of that to character and have more than double that left on the character after I made my purchase.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Could not have articulated my point better. This needs to be seen and understood by more people.
While I love the game, the people defending the cash model are getting really ridiculous with their arguments
I totally agree, i just prefer a game that grab the money around to develop the game instead of seeing pirates and Chinese cheap labour taking it. Their model is not perfect, but game has just been released it's super excitement. Cash shop price are high, i agree, but they gave you lot of AD, their model encourage people to play instead of only buying and run around with nothing to do after.
Exactly game companies have basically given up trying to fight the external market in selling things and are attempting to benefit themselves from that market. It is the wave of the future and frankly is here forever.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Is anyone even disputing that? I imagine most posters in this thread started off by addressing the OP's fairly ludicrous assertion that this isn't a pay to win game.
PWE makes pay to win games, that is approaching a universally held truth.
According to what is Pay to win, your definition included game filled with gold spammers.
No, not really. P2W, to me, requires the game be designed to encourage and facilitate the practice. I have a UI button that leads me to a page where I can spend money to get more powerful in game. Hugely different from gold spammers.
PWE has not given me one single AD. I have 6,600, which I earned in-game.
Again, let me be clear.
A. I don't care about the ability to buy Zen with real money & use Zen to buy cosmetic stuff in the Zen store.
B. I don't like the fact that Astral Diamonds are the only currency usable on the AH, but I can deal with that.
C. I don't care that I can earn Astral Diamonds in-game, & convert them to Zen to buy things in the Zen Store.
D. What I care very much about is the ability to buy Zen, then convert to Astral Diamonds for use on the Auction House. I'm flatly stunned that people are defending that ability.
Beyond that, the idea that character respecs are only available in the Zen Store is, IMO, nearly offensive. I've never, ever heard of a MMO doing that, & I think it's a despicable cash grab, especially in a new game where you can bet your bottom dollar that people are going to make build mistakes through simple ignorance of game mechanics.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
Can anyone claim for a second they don't sell power?
Serious question, not leading into a troll, but it's something I think we need to start on as a BASIS of discussion.
The claim of selling power requires jumping through some hoops and squinting right. You won't find power available for sell in the Zen store. The convoluted arguement has to do with converting zen to AD and buying things.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I've always considered games with gold spammers, leveling schemes, equipment farms etc as Pay 2 win. ::shrug::
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
We dont play the same game, i see 5 daily quest at 2k AD reward + x2 at this moment. Ignoring gear sold, leadership profession, prayer. If you can't make at the very least even starting at around level 20 not 60 about 20k AD per 4-5 hours sessions. You don't get this game mechanic, i would look at an other game.
http://www.hellokittyonline.com/
I don't think there's anything "convoluted" about that argument.
Buy Zen
Convert to AD
Buy from AH
Where's the convolution?
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...