Once raids arrive you will be called a total **** for the pitiful dps you deal, right before they kick you. Maybe not literally but you understand the meaning, gear matters in PvE because that too can be a competitive environment.
Of course if you don't mind under performing in every aspect of the game, then sure, it doesn't matter, but don't expect everyone to have the same view.
Not sure what your comment has to do with my explanation. Never said that gear doesn't matter. Also, if you go by the history of Cryptic's games, raids, in the sense of 20 man content, probably won't happen. We might get 10 man content.
Once raids arrive you will be called a total **** for the pitiful dps you deal, right before they kick you. Maybe not literally but you understand the meaning, gear matters in PvE because that too can be a competitive environment.
Of course if you don't mind under performing in every aspect of the game, then sure, it doesn't matter, but don't expect everyone to have the same view.
LOL with the competition and raids. The guild who burns most cash with resurrect scrolls and health stones wins. Where is the skill when you can replace it with your wallet and rez 100 times during the fight?
I made 800k AD in a day spending roughly 75k AD in a single day. If you don't know how to work with the AH, sounds like personal problem bro bro.
Every time someone uses the Auction House to justify AD > Zen calculations, god kills a kitten.
If everyone relies on the AH to create Zen, it becomes an untenable method of doing so. In terms of systemic accumulation of Zen, only Zen actually injected into the system (ie: created from non-player sources) should be considered. Everything else is essentially working on the basis that for someone to win, someone else has to lose. Following on from this, if (when) everyone realises how much Zen they need, they either quit (no more source of AD to buy your stuff from the AH) or they turn to the AH themselves.
Stop using the AH as a justification for creating Zen without spending cash. It is a short-term situation relying on the lack of knowledge of new players.
Every time someone uses the Auction House to justify AD > Zen calculations, god kills a kitten.
If everyone relies on the AH to create Zen, it becomes an untenable method of doing so. In terms of systemic accumulation of Zen, only Zen actually injected into the system (ie: created from non-player sources) should be considered. Everything else is essentially working on the basis that for someone to win, someone else has to lose. Following on from this, if (when) everyone realises how much Zen they need, they either quit (no more source of AD to buy your stuff from the AH) or they turn to the AH themselves.
Stop using the AH as a justification for creating Zen without spending cash. It is a short-term situation relying on the lack of knowledge of new players.
Wait. how is the zen created from non player sources?
People with Zen feed people with Diamonds, People with Diamonds feed people with Zen. None of the 2 groups get large advantages.
Bam! Stable economy
tbh i think the way they did all this is arranged alot better then some games ive seen. Grinders, goldsellers and all those scumbags actually are slowed down quite big because of them having this system.
Not sure what your comment has to do with my explanation. Never said that gear doesn't matter. Also, if you go by the history of Cryptic's games, raids, in the sense of 20 man content, probably won't happen. We might get 10 man content.
Other players cash shop epics and enchants affect your enjoyment because they are miles ahead of you in the dps charts, and they make sure to let you know it too. Now I understand some people find a super casual guild with super casual players that don't care at all, but that just isn't enjoyable for everyone. If the only competitive option is to drop something like a thousand dollars into an MMO, then it truly is Pay 2 Win (or Pay 2 Compete if you want to be literal about it).
Other players cash shop epics and enchants affect your enjoyment because they are miles ahead of you in the dps charts, and they make sure to let you know it too. Now I understand some people find a super casual guild with super casual players that don't care at all, but that just isn't enjoyable for everyone. If the only competitive option is to drop something like a thousand dollars into an MMO, then it truly is Pay 2 Win (or Pay 2 Compete if you want to be literal about it).
I'm still not affecting your enjoyment of the game. Why should you be concerned about the way I choose to play?
I'm still not affecting your enjoyment of the game. Why should you be concerned about the way I choose to play?
I just explained it. Well, not for you specifically I guess. You personally probably won't have an affect because we are unlikely to ever meet. But as for the whole of the cash shop users, now that one I just explained. I don't know what more you would want.
It's not, I meant to say AD. As in, people who use the AH to farm AD are taking it from other players, not creating it.
Ah right, yeah that's correct, but ultimately over time AD will lose it's value massively anyways. but yeah you'll just be told that's how it is etc etc etc, or it doesn't affect you etc etc etc.
the only real compelling argument I've seen on the matter so far in the opposite side is that there are coalescent wards on the AH with low enough starting bids from 1700 ad to 120k ad that just can't really be argued against really at the time, except for as I stated, the fact that it may be just folks are new and don't know the value of it. And again these are 5 day auctions and only just up on the AH and may grow a LOT.
Still, it's the fact it's selling power (even if said power can be obtained via scalping and grind) and that alone is enough to be wary.
Pay2win:
According to the opinion of the group of people claiming it's pay to win (which somes makes me laugh how they said "i'm gone to another game" "**** this" and has been posting around 150 rant posts in the last two weeks) makes it appears bigger than it is. According to their definition of pay2win, EVERY single MMO game is a pay to win, even the ones without cash shop. Face it, there's always people ready to waste money to be stronger faster, if it's not cash shop it's a gold sellers business. Even BoP item 10 years ago was sold with real money/gold (for a raid spot). Obviously it's not a forum rant to win, because you are missing the double AD weekend. It is all free, most of the thing in cash shop drop, can be acquired or you can get for a small amount of in-game currency a good alternative, or even for free (most of the people agree that the free cleric companion at level 16 is the best companion currently in the game, according to the use companion offers currently to the game), furthermore in-game currency earns in thousand of different ways can be traded for Zen.
Selling power vs other game:
If every slightest advantage or convenience is power for you, play single-player game offline. "LoL has a better business model. Well if you do believe it, you are free to go back, i will not. LoL is 100% free, yes it is, but we all spent money probably more then i would on Neverwinter with their new champion at every 2 weeks + 10$ skins, because it's okay to pay 10$ to have a different colour on 1 single character but not 30$ to have the fastest in-game mount for all your character. Enchants are power, yes, as runes in LoL are power. Both are earned in game or you can buy them with RP, why it would be different.
Making AD/Zen:
Now we hear 2 opinions: It takes years of farming or it takes few days on the auction house. Both are true, it takes maybe years to get a mount if you assume at level 15 you will do the same amount of AD per day for the rest of the year, on the other hand if you are real smart with the auction house or you had the chance to have a big amount of AD at launch you can works your way easily on the auction house within days, but it's gonna last few weeks until prices settled. Truth is in between, if people ranting would use their forum time to get to level 60, do dungeons, do events, prayers for celestial coins,... they would realize it's not that bad, you can expect to do a considerable amount. I think it's reasonable to say with a medium effort you can get around 20 to 50k AD per day. AD:Ratio is dropping, it was at 350:1 so assuming a 35k AD per day that's about 1 dollars per day, and it's double this weekend. And maybe the ratio will continue to drop. So no ones can predict how it would be like in 6 months accurately, the price of zen vs AD will always adapt in a way Zen will be sold at an amount most of the players consider fair (time spent vs money-zen worths in the cash shop). Right now it's chaos, many people threw away their AD, don't know how they could makes money or keeps their AD before buying to see how the market will be. I'm not saying it will be better for sure, but i would be surprised it gets worse.
Prices:
If they do modifications regarding prices, it will not be the Zen or their Cash shop that will change, but the AD ratio gains, i guess double AD this weekend it's to put more AD in the game, Balance will always be done regarding AD gains. So you play to win. Prices are high, yes, but it's not all their fault, fact is people a willing to buy it, if they are not, they will farm it, if it takes too much time, people will not transfer AD into Zen, then people selling Zen will lower their prices or they will increase the AD gain like for this weekend... that's how it works they don't force you to pay or sell or buy any bull****, you can get to 60 with no need for Zen.
Yeah and McDonalds is free because you can steal a burger. You could even get a job there and get one for free that way. It's not Pay 4 Burger at all, even though it is the easiest option. You could even say they don't sell Burger at all, they just sell the convenience of not having to steal one.
Other players cash shop epics and enchants affect your enjoyment because they are miles ahead of you in the dps charts, and they make sure to let you know it too. Now I understand some people find a super casual guild with super casual players that don't care at all, but that just isn't enjoyable for everyone. If the only competitive option is to drop something like a thousand dollars into an MMO, then it truly is Pay 2 Win (or Pay 2 Compete if you want to be literal about it).
Here's a thought: get over yourself and just play for fun.
Yeah and McDonalds is free because you can steal a burger. You could even get a job there and get one for free that way. It's not Pay 4 Burger at all, even though it is the easiest option. You could even say they don't sell Burger at all, they just sell the convenience of not having to steal one.
Hey, it's the double standard wont get moved thread
This thread doesn't appear to have descended into schoolyard flame-trolling, like the other one was. Beyond that, it's quite possible that like WoW mods, PWE/Cryptic mods aren't in on weekends.
As for the thread itself, I have rather mixed feelings. I do agree that there are definitely elements of "pay to win" involved, but OTOH I don't think they "ruin" the game, & since I'm not a "competitive" PvE player & since I have RL friends & family to play with, I don't have to care what "competitive" monster-bashers think.
I firmly believe that anyone who would pay a total of $210 just for a freekin' MMO enchant has far more money than brains or common sense, & you know: "a fool & his money are soon parted."
Fare you well
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
Which is pretty much where you veer off from pay for convenience into pay to win.
Player A: Goes into the game and gets to max level in a reasonable time, up until now he's more or less equal to player B, he now has reasonable gear for pvp/pve and opens up his wallet and lets loose with his money, he focuses on maxing his enchants and gear/mount and maxes himself as far as the human wallet can take him.
Player B: does the same but is put off by the price of the items, and is more conservative and decides he's going to wait a bit and see if the aspects of the cash shop are imbalancing, he reads on the forums that he can just PLAY to get the stuff but it will take longer, He comes across player A in a pvp match and due to obvious differences gets creamed. not massively but it's a lot harder due to the advantages that player A has, he decides he's better off waiting to gear up via the optional alternative to cash, ONE YEAR LATER. He has successfully closed the gap "slightly" with player A, who has by this point arguably once again leapt ahead in progress via cash and now that initial large gap is insurmountable (not a definite but possible)
discuss.
Pretty much this. I hit max level yesterday and do you know how long I played this game since then, less than an hour. I was really enjoying PvP and not feeling too disadvantaged due to not paying money (other than the 110% mounts), it was pretty fun even though it is a very old and one dimensional system. I'm currently at GS 8500 with all the PvP gear and some blues, but the gap between me and the people who have paid through the teeth is insurmountable, any class can literally tear me apart in the right circumstances other than other clerics. I'm crit for more than my full health pool by one rogue skill even though I have 27% damage resistance, am sat in my Astral Shield and have Foresight traited and up, but still it's a one shot. It's really killed this game for me. The PvE ques are too long to wait for, I end up logging out of boredom before they even pop, when they do it's a trainwreck or ninja fest.
Pretty much this. I hit max level yesterday and do you know how long I played this game since then, less than an hour. I was really enjoying PvP and not feeling too disadvantaged due to not paying money (other than the 110% mounts), it was pretty fun even though it is a very old and one dimensional system. I'm currently at GS 8500 with all the PvP gear and some blues, but the gap between me and the people who have paid through the teeth is insurmountable, any class can literally tear me apart in the right circumstances other than other clerics. I'm crit for more than my full health pool by one rogue skill even though I have 27% damage resistance, am sat in my Astral Shield and have Foresight traited and up, but still it's a one shot. It's really killed this game for me. The PvE ques are too long to wait for, I end up logging out of boredom before they even pop, when they do it's a trainwreck or ninja fest.
Pretty much this. I hit max level yesterday and do you know how long I played this game since then, less than an hour. I was really enjoying PvP and not feeling too disadvantaged due to not paying money (other than the 110% mounts), it was pretty fun even though it is a very old and one dimensional system. I'm currently at GS 8500 with all the PvP gear and some blues, but the gap between me and the people who have paid through the teeth is insurmountable, any class can literally tear me apart in the right circumstances other than other clerics. I'm crit for more than my full health pool by one rogue skill even though I have 27% damage resistance, am sat in my Astral Shield and have Foresight traited and up, but still it's a one shot. It's really killed this game for me. The PvE ques are too long to wait for, I end up logging out of boredom before they even pop, when they do it's a trainwreck or ninja fest.
Well that's the problem. Your average players who haven't spent a fortune haven't made it to endgame yet. The players who spent $1000 and leveled to 60 in one day most likely out number all the level 60s who got there for free.
The MMO model has come a long way since the early days when people would complain that they were not as powerful as those who spent hours and hours grinding each day and raiding the highest dungeons in the game for the 'top' end gear.
Now, instead, you can bust out your wallet and instead of spending hours raiding for the best items, you can spend cash instead.
Sounds like pay to win to me.
The problem is, is that the people who put effort into the game should not be penalized because someone has a bigger credit card. That is the problem. If anyone wants to spend hours and days grinding the same dungeons/raid mobs for the best gear that's fine. But if player B opens up his wallet and can be as geared as player A in half the time with less time invested in his character, and less time involved in building skill...that's not as fine.
P2W items never should be in a cash shop. Pay to proceed items should not be either.
Take Lotro...they allow people to BUY inventory space (in vault/bank space) with GOLD until you have reach 120 slots. THEN you can purchase 15 additional slots x 2 (for a total of 30). You get 5 bags to begin with, and a 6th you can purchase for YOUR ENTIRE ACCOUNT. Not just ONE of your 6 initial toons, but the WHOLE ACCOUNT. That means across each server as well!!!!!!!
Also, in most other games, bags are either sold at high price or crafted by the players. None of this having to BUY with ZEN in a cash shop. This is the sticking point for me, and my sole grating issue (as I am not max level) with PW business model.
No I won't be leaving just yet, but I'll probably take a break and see if things get better/worse. I'm guessing the latter when they start adding to the cash store. This definitely isn't instilling me with the confidence to hand over any money though.
Pay to Win is when you can buy something to get an edge over someone else who doesn't have/use the option to pay.
Every single thing in the cash shop can be acquired without paying a single cent. All it takes is time. You want to get something faster, or not spend the time and effort to get it, you can buy it. How is that different than the guy who farmed for 4 hours and got something?
.
.
There is no advantage any player can get over another exclusively through paying real money. The best they can get is to save some time before getting an item.
.
.
This is no different than the no-lifers playing the game 20 hrs a day and getting top items before the majority of other players - and by the way are still WAY more frequent than any hardcore paying player.
I call it: PAY FOR CONVIENCE (P4C for short) but this works too.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
Comments
Not sure what your comment has to do with my explanation. Never said that gear doesn't matter. Also, if you go by the history of Cryptic's games, raids, in the sense of 20 man content, probably won't happen. We might get 10 man content.
Centurion maximus92
12th Legion, Romulan Republic
12th Fleet
=\/= ================================ =\/=
LOL with the competition and raids. The guild who burns most cash with resurrect scrolls and health stones wins. Where is the skill when you can replace it with your wallet and rez 100 times during the fight?
AD > Zen is lipservice. It's not a feasible long term method of functional gameplay.
If everyone relies on the AH to create Zen, it becomes an untenable method of doing so. In terms of systemic accumulation of Zen, only Zen actually injected into the system (ie: created from non-player sources) should be considered. Everything else is essentially working on the basis that for someone to win, someone else has to lose. Following on from this, if (when) everyone realises how much Zen they need, they either quit (no more source of AD to buy your stuff from the AH) or they turn to the AH themselves.
Stop using the AH as a justification for creating Zen without spending cash. It is a short-term situation relying on the lack of knowledge of new players.
Wait. how is the zen created from non player sources?
Bam! Stable economy
tbh i think the way they did all this is arranged alot better then some games ive seen. Grinders, goldsellers and all those scumbags actually are slowed down quite big because of them having this system.
Elf Control Wizard - Dragon
Other players cash shop epics and enchants affect your enjoyment because they are miles ahead of you in the dps charts, and they make sure to let you know it too. Now I understand some people find a super casual guild with super casual players that don't care at all, but that just isn't enjoyable for everyone. If the only competitive option is to drop something like a thousand dollars into an MMO, then it truly is Pay 2 Win (or Pay 2 Compete if you want to be literal about it).
I'm still not affecting your enjoyment of the game. Why should you be concerned about the way I choose to play?
Centurion maximus92
12th Legion, Romulan Republic
12th Fleet
=\/= ================================ =\/=
I just explained it. Well, not for you specifically I guess. You personally probably won't have an affect because we are unlikely to ever meet. But as for the whole of the cash shop users, now that one I just explained. I don't know what more you would want.
Ah right, yeah that's correct, but ultimately over time AD will lose it's value massively anyways. but yeah you'll just be told that's how it is etc etc etc, or it doesn't affect you etc etc etc.
the only real compelling argument I've seen on the matter so far in the opposite side is that there are coalescent wards on the AH with low enough starting bids from 1700 ad to 120k ad that just can't really be argued against really at the time, except for as I stated, the fact that it may be just folks are new and don't know the value of it. And again these are 5 day auctions and only just up on the AH and may grow a LOT.
Still, it's the fact it's selling power (even if said power can be obtained via scalping and grind) and that alone is enough to be wary.
Fact is:
Pay2win:
According to the opinion of the group of people claiming it's pay to win (which somes makes me laugh how they said "i'm gone to another game" "**** this" and has been posting around 150 rant posts in the last two weeks) makes it appears bigger than it is. According to their definition of pay2win, EVERY single MMO game is a pay to win, even the ones without cash shop. Face it, there's always people ready to waste money to be stronger faster, if it's not cash shop it's a gold sellers business. Even BoP item 10 years ago was sold with real money/gold (for a raid spot). Obviously it's not a forum rant to win, because you are missing the double AD weekend. It is all free, most of the thing in cash shop drop, can be acquired or you can get for a small amount of in-game currency a good alternative, or even for free (most of the people agree that the free cleric companion at level 16 is the best companion currently in the game, according to the use companion offers currently to the game), furthermore in-game currency earns in thousand of different ways can be traded for Zen.
Selling power vs other game:
If every slightest advantage or convenience is power for you, play single-player game offline. "LoL has a better business model. Well if you do believe it, you are free to go back, i will not. LoL is 100% free, yes it is, but we all spent money probably more then i would on Neverwinter with their new champion at every 2 weeks + 10$ skins, because it's okay to pay 10$ to have a different colour on 1 single character but not 30$ to have the fastest in-game mount for all your character. Enchants are power, yes, as runes in LoL are power. Both are earned in game or you can buy them with RP, why it would be different.
Making AD/Zen:
Now we hear 2 opinions: It takes years of farming or it takes few days on the auction house. Both are true, it takes maybe years to get a mount if you assume at level 15 you will do the same amount of AD per day for the rest of the year, on the other hand if you are real smart with the auction house or you had the chance to have a big amount of AD at launch you can works your way easily on the auction house within days, but it's gonna last few weeks until prices settled. Truth is in between, if people ranting would use their forum time to get to level 60, do dungeons, do events, prayers for celestial coins,... they would realize it's not that bad, you can expect to do a considerable amount. I think it's reasonable to say with a medium effort you can get around 20 to 50k AD per day. AD:Ratio is dropping, it was at 350:1 so assuming a 35k AD per day that's about 1 dollars per day, and it's double this weekend. And maybe the ratio will continue to drop. So no ones can predict how it would be like in 6 months accurately, the price of zen vs AD will always adapt in a way Zen will be sold at an amount most of the players consider fair (time spent vs money-zen worths in the cash shop). Right now it's chaos, many people threw away their AD, don't know how they could makes money or keeps their AD before buying to see how the market will be. I'm not saying it will be better for sure, but i would be surprised it gets worse.
Prices:
If they do modifications regarding prices, it will not be the Zen or their Cash shop that will change, but the AD ratio gains, i guess double AD this weekend it's to put more AD in the game, Balance will always be done regarding AD gains. So you play to win. Prices are high, yes, but it's not all their fault, fact is people a willing to buy it, if they are not, they will farm it, if it takes too much time, people will not transfer AD into Zen, then people selling Zen will lower their prices or they will increase the AD gain like for this weekend... that's how it works they don't force you to pay or sell or buy any bull****, you can get to 60 with no need for Zen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKnBFspCtx4
Here's a thought: get over yourself and just play for fun.
OMG
Tried to be funny; failed miserably.
Thank you. You just made me realize that you know best what is fun for everyone. Such a relief to have you here guiding us.
No problem.
How's getting over yourself working out for ya? Oh wait, you haven't started yet.
looks to me like both of you are just spamming now.
I will happily say that McDonald's does not sell burgers at all. I'm not sure what those things actually are, but "burgers" they are not.
This thread doesn't appear to have descended into schoolyard flame-trolling, like the other one was. Beyond that, it's quite possible that like WoW mods, PWE/Cryptic mods aren't in on weekends.
As for the thread itself, I have rather mixed feelings. I do agree that there are definitely elements of "pay to win" involved, but OTOH I don't think they "ruin" the game, & since I'm not a "competitive" PvE player & since I have RL friends & family to play with, I don't have to care what "competitive" monster-bashers think.
I firmly believe that anyone who would pay a total of $210 just for a freekin' MMO enchant has far more money than brains or common sense, & you know: "a fool & his money are soon parted."
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
Pretty much this. I hit max level yesterday and do you know how long I played this game since then, less than an hour. I was really enjoying PvP and not feeling too disadvantaged due to not paying money (other than the 110% mounts), it was pretty fun even though it is a very old and one dimensional system. I'm currently at GS 8500 with all the PvP gear and some blues, but the gap between me and the people who have paid through the teeth is insurmountable, any class can literally tear me apart in the right circumstances other than other clerics. I'm crit for more than my full health pool by one rogue skill even though I have 27% damage resistance, am sat in my Astral Shield and have Foresight traited and up, but still it's a one shot. It's really killed this game for me. The PvE ques are too long to wait for, I end up logging out of boredom before they even pop, when they do it's a trainwreck or ninja fest.
Can I have your stuff?
He never said he was leaving?
Well that's the problem. Your average players who haven't spent a fortune haven't made it to endgame yet. The players who spent $1000 and leveled to 60 in one day most likely out number all the level 60s who got there for free.
So?
/10char
Now, instead, you can bust out your wallet and instead of spending hours raiding for the best items, you can spend cash instead.
Sounds like pay to win to me.
The problem is, is that the people who put effort into the game should not be penalized because someone has a bigger credit card. That is the problem. If anyone wants to spend hours and days grinding the same dungeons/raid mobs for the best gear that's fine. But if player B opens up his wallet and can be as geared as player A in half the time with less time invested in his character, and less time involved in building skill...that's not as fine.
P2W items never should be in a cash shop. Pay to proceed items should not be either.
Take Lotro...they allow people to BUY inventory space (in vault/bank space) with GOLD until you have reach 120 slots. THEN you can purchase 15 additional slots x 2 (for a total of 30). You get 5 bags to begin with, and a 6th you can purchase for YOUR ENTIRE ACCOUNT. Not just ONE of your 6 initial toons, but the WHOLE ACCOUNT. That means across each server as well!!!!!!!
Also, in most other games, bags are either sold at high price or crafted by the players. None of this having to BUY with ZEN in a cash shop. This is the sticking point for me, and my sole grating issue (as I am not max level) with PW business model.
No I won't be leaving just yet, but I'll probably take a break and see if things get better/worse. I'm guessing the latter when they start adding to the cash store. This definitely isn't instilling me with the confidence to hand over any money though.
I call it: PAY FOR CONVIENCE (P4C for short) but this works too.
Character is what a man is in the dark