The thing is that paying real money for a game rewards effort outside the game, instead of in the game. Players who are able to sink a decent amount of money into this game, will get everything MUCH quicker, and you can't deny that. But what really puzzles me is that PWE thinks that this business-model yields the most money. I have no doubt that with some altering the cash-shop, NW will hold on to players for much longer. I mean, the leveling experience is really fun, but when you hit Lv. 60 as a low-paying customer and see people being better than you at almost everything while they barely put more effort in the game itself, you'll quit a lot earlier than when you feel that you can compete with other players by simply being good at the game itself.
Being better how and at what? Having more bags will make me a better player? Having a better companion will make me solo PVE faster? So? You people are amazing
Being better how and at what? Having more bags will make me a better player? Having a better companion will make me solo PVE faster? So? You people are amazing
Being able to make money way faster with profession booster packs and having access to better weapons low-paying customers need to grind ages for will make you better. Some stuff simply demands an insanely long grind.
So far I think the devs are charging money at the right places!
If you want a cool mount, then pay up! If you want a chance at that sweet Nightmare horse mount, then pay up! Want a better companion? Well... either stick to your free one or pay up! Want bigger bags so you don't have to always find a vendor to empty'em? Pay up!
Even the $6 fee to respec seems fair! You should be careful when speccing your character! You should read what each talent ability does and chose it wisely, and if you think you did way too many mistakes, then stop being a cheapskate and pay the $6 fee! Like come on, this game is really well done and you aren't paying $15/month like other MMORPGs! $6 is *nothing*! If you can't afford that, then maybe you should find a better job than MacDonalds or eat a small lunch one day so you can keep the lunch money your dad gave you for a respec!
This game is not expensive to play! Support the developers and buy some stuff every now and then! Running a F2P game is not cheap! It's very expensive! They only do this because they are hoping some people will actually pay so that they can continue allowing F2P players to keep playing too!
Then they should adopt the DDO business model. Period. The VIP sub can be a great source of money. VIP players could re-spec without paying zen. How can i choose a power correctly if I'm playing with my first char? You can't measure a power effectiveness without put three points on it.
No F2P game is free. They usually free if you want a limited experience, in this case the pay items are cosmetic or convenience. You can still play without paying a cent (you get bags and companions through questing and skill kits give quite a few mats and assets not to mention Leadership tasks granting chests et etc).
And best of all, if you don't wanna pay you can go play something else!
But no, if a MMO launches without a bunch of idiots whining, it's not a real launch. Such is the nature of the beast
Yeah the problem is the legitimate concerns are drowned out in the tide of "OMG game is going to Failzorz!!!" The drama trolls pile on to every complaint and end up lumping all the complainers in the same group.
I played STO since early beta and I have seen the exact same people make the exact same post about the game failing and how they were uninstalling and never coming back....yet sixteen hours, seventy two hours, six months later they are still around and still making the same copy and paste hatred.
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
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uriah65Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I blame the WOW .... the generation of gamers that were spawned and weened on that game in combination with the rapidily accelerating death of subscription games has flooded the gamesphere with a plethora of whinny crybabies that want, even DEMAND, everything now, everything free, everything me me me!
And I totally concur with stormdragon, the forums have become the hunting grounds of the whinners and complainers, so much so, that it is difficult to find and discuss the real issues and problems. Want to know why devs have trouble discerning what is or is not a real problem within the game? Just continue perusing these pages, the evidence is there in black and white.
I've spent money in the cash shop, am I now entitled to complain that there is still a pay-to-win system in place or that there are things that could have been done better in the cash shop. I already have the tier 3 horse and the honey badger but that doesn't mean I can't complain that I think that they are over-priced or that again it's a pay-to-win system and that TF2 has a better model that should be considered.
I personally think revenue would be better to raise by instead having a soft cap of level 30 which you have to pay say $20 to remove and then the benefits of the cash shop isn't better (stats wise) gear but rather vanity or offers other benefits that aren't pure stat based improves similar to how TF2 offers gear that records stats, is visually better or what not.
I'm not against expensive vanity items, I am against expensive gear that gives statistical benefits however. I think more could have been done in this system, like gear could be uncrafted to recover some of their components for example. Nightmare boxes could have given more vanity gear and craft materials (rather than simply giving superior gear) as well as giving perhaps other things like mini-game items or what not.
Also as far as I can currently see, things don't carry over to other characters, so if I raise a second character do I need to really spend another $200 just to get the same vanity items I already have on my main? what about a 3rd or 4th character... With TF2 you class specific things for sure but there are things that work on multiple classes too as well like some hats/vanity gear, weapons and action slot items
amgynMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited May 2013
I have to agree the cash-grab on this game is huge.... they dangle everything infront of you and say you can have it - for a price.
just ask yourself - if they charged Zen for the ability to strafe, would you pay? I mean you can do everything else and you can play the game fine.... but you can't strafe unless you pay. would you?
I'm a gamer since 1985 and i was born in 1981... I'm not complaining about the prices, IMHO this business model will not live much longer... this is why i mentioned the DDO business model. People should choose between play for free or pay a sub to get everything without cash. The DDO business model lives pretty well.
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mutharexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Being able to make money way faster with profession booster packs and having access to better weapons low-paying customers need to grind ages for will make you better. Some stuff simply demands an insanely long grind.
So what you saying is, if I don't pay I can do the same in more time,if I pay I can do it faster. Well it makes sense no?
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mutharexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yeah the problem is the legitimate concerns are drowned out in the tide of "OMG game is going to Failzorz!!!" The drama trolls pile on to every complaint and end up lumping all the complainers in the same group.
I played STO since early beta and I have seen the exact same people make the exact same post about the game failing and how they were uninstalling and never coming back....yet sixteen hours, seventy two hours, six months later they are still around and still making the same copy and paste hatred.
It makes what comes from the forums irrelevant.
Yes, it's a pattern that you see in a lot of places, usually by kids or adults with the emotional stability of a 16 years old with a bad case of acne ....
It's a shame because it drowns all serious and constructive discussion.
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mutharexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have to agree the cash-grab on this game is huge.... they dangle everything infront of you and say you can have it - for a price.
just ask yourself - if they charged Zen for the ability to strafe, would you pay? I mean you can do everything else and you can play the game fine.... but you can't strafe unless you pay. would you?
There is being silly and then.. there is this
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amgynMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
Oh i forgot to add - you can buy the ability to strafe or you can get it for free but you have to do this one thing twice a day, every day for 4 months...
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mutharexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm a gamer since 1985 and i was born in 1981... I'm not complaining about the prices, IMHO this business model will not live much longer... this is why i mentioned the DDO business model. People should choose between play for free or pay a sub to get everything without cash. The DDO business model lives pretty well.
DDO (like many other games) was a P2P that came out, sold boxes and for several months (actually over a year) was fully P2P, THEN moved to FREEMIUM.
NWO is a straight F2P title with no box purchase. Though I wish they made it P2P, at least people would have to pay to spaz all over the forums.....
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mutharexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Oh i forgot to add - you can buy the ability to strafe or you can get it for free but you have to do this one thing twice a day, every day for 4 months...
You realize that the ability to move and bags/mounts/respec are on a completely different level? No? Thought so
So what you saying is, if I don't pay I can do the same in more time,if I pay I can do it faster. Well it makes sense no?
I failed to clarify that my most important point is that this system can't and won't make for a stable, large playerbase. People will just leave if they see that even though they put way more effort in the game itself, some other players will always be faster with everything than you will be if you don't keep on spending. I'd really like this game to become some kind of subscription based one, or with a DDO model. PWE is just digging this game's own grave, altough I can imagine they don't care that much since they can get money from other titles. I am willing to pay, aslong as it's not this kind of system where you have to keep on spending to be efficient.
He isn't being silly... he in fact trying to tell us, with a little naive example, how this dev generation is lost, putting some really stupid ideas inside their games without thinking straight. I know that some decisions comes from the publisher suits, but look at Jay Wilson i.e. ... so many stupid ideas came from this guy and ruined D3. And he had the audacity to call the great Diablo game designer a loser, gth Jay Wilson =|
Is a game dev paradigm... Dev should play more games to absorb some good ideas. And this affirmation comes from a guy who works with games
I would drop 60 bucks right off the bat for this game and 15 dollars a month. However, I have yet to drop a single cent because I haven't had to yet (currently 34) imo, that is pretty awesome.
That sums up all the issues with the community right there. :rolleyes:
That was question not a statement.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
I would drop 60 bucks right off the bat for this game and 15 dollars a month. However, I have yet to drop a single cent because I haven't had to yet (currently 34)
Yeah I know a lot of people who are saying the same thing, so much for the "OMGzorz! U Forced to Payzorz!!! Evil!!!" A good friend of mine has been unemployed for the past six months and is having a really rough go of it, he downloaded the game and loves it, I told him over vent that I would mail him a Zen card if he would like. "Why?" he replied everything I'm interested in is free plus I just got a Inferno mount from trading on the auction house.
Some gamers think that if they can't have everything available cheap to free now then PWE is a evil company forcing them to gamble. (yes the Glock is at your head making you buy those keys :rolleyes:) The entire premise is ridiculous yet there is no end of hair pulling about it.
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
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snickxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
The game is a cash grab through and through. It is built on making your life tougher to encourage you to spend.
Now, the game is pretty dull past a moderate amount of time when you realize just how much is cash driven and how many things have been compromised/sacrificed for the cash shop.
Which was probably their plan from the beginning. Launch as an open beta to avoid official reviews and public scrutiny (people do actually hide behind the open beta card), make the 1-20 experience awesome and charge highly inflated rates for stuff on the shop. You make the most return in the shortest space of time before people catch on the game kinda sucks after a few weeks.
Sure, it's free, but since when does "free" mean I have to endure a sub-par moneymaking product? If I wanted that, i'd hit up some Farmville or Simcity Social. This was supposed to be a AAA title from a respected developer. Not a shortlived money making scheme that has poor production quality. (engine, artwork reusing, no real economy, dungeons are copy/paste mechanics and content, foundry is rehashed out of STO)
Disappointing really that Cryptic has had to sink this low to keep afloat. They should have copied the GW2 model and went from there; it was definitely one of the best in the industry.
What devs should learn that time is very precious... People can't play for a entire day anymore, except the kids. Even kids have jobs. 2 million a mount i.e. on AH? Pfff ... They need to be reasonable. Why i should pray 360 days to get a F... angel companion? I just need to login, pray and logout, but this is the crowd they want? Really? You can't make a good build without experimentation...if i need to pay for each respec until i reach a optimal build I'm F...ed lol XD This is why some D2 mods give to you a chance to respec. Where's the fun making the same F... lvl 60 char just because you make bad choices? Nowhere. Instead you gonna play another game a.k.a Dark Souls 2 XD... What I'm trying to say is the devs/publisher in general should think about their decisions without being greedy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...
I want to give them my money but I can't. The nickle and diming is just too much, and I feel like I'm being squeezed out of money, and that makes it feel morally wrong to give them money, even though I enjoy the game very much.
So I'm in a rather conflicted situation here.
Why can't you? Don't you have a Credit/ bank card? Are you Married an need to discuss spending "recreational cash"(a valid reason BTW), don't have the money to spend?
See if you want to spend money on the game, then spend it on what you feel is worth it. I have been having this discussion on MWO. Spend if you can afford it, don't if you can't.
I blame the WOW .... the generation of gamers that were spawned and weened on that game in combination with the rapidily accelerating death of subscription games has flooded the gamesphere with a plethora of whinny crybabies that want, even DEMAND, everything now, everything free, everything me me me!
I blame the farmville generation that have grown accustomed to being nickle and dimed and paying to win. I hate WoW with a passion but your post is ridiculous fanboy nonsense.
Why can't you? Don't you have a Credit/ bank card? Are you Married an need to discuss spending "recreational cash"(a valid reason BTW), don't have the money to spend?
See if you want to spend money on the game, then spend it on what you feel is worth it. I have been having this discussion on MWO. Spend if you can afford it, don't if you can't.
Bingo!
Why ***** about prices, it's like complaining about the weather. I can understand someone not wanting to spend a certain amount for a certain item, what I can't understand is this atavistic need to run to the forums threatening everything up an to firebombing Cryptics offices and insulting anyone who decides to pay for something.
He isn't being silly... he in fact trying to tell us, with a little naive example, how this dev generation is lost, putting some really stupid ideas inside their games without thinking straight. I know that some decisions comes from the publisher suits, but look at Jay Wilson i.e. ... so many stupid ideas came from this guy and ruined D3. And he had the audacity to call the great Diablo game designer a loser, gth Jay Wilson =|
Is a game dev paradigm... Dev should play more games to absorb some good ideas. And this affirmation comes from a guy who works with games
I reckon it has more to do with the producer (PWE) than the devs
The real problem right now for me at 30ish is that I WANT to spend money but there is nothing really for me to spend money on. Maybe if there were small purchases spread out, rather than just large purchases at end-game, people would complain less.
I blame the farmville generation that have grown accustomed to being nickle and dimed and paying to win. I hate WoW with a passion but your post is ridiculous fanboy nonsense.
Well if it is it's fanboy nonsense that is shared by a great many developers as it was a big topic of discussion at last years GDC, we are living in the most self entitled, petty generation in history. They are more concerned what other people have than what they have and automatically view something as evil if it isn't free.
Perfect example I teach advanced network principles part time at our local community college, one student there who is barely Nineteen, received a patent for two pieces of software he created in High School and is now very well off, He is automatically hated at the school by a majority of the students because of it. I asked one student why he didn't like him. "He has more money than I do" was his answer, I was boggled by the admission of it.
And before you say that you don't care who has what maybe you don't, but a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of the crying on this forum stems from the fact that some people for whatever reason can't afford things they want, but instead of being okay with that they scream "I can so afford it, I just think it's stupid and the people who pay are fools!!"
I see a lot of crying, but I don't actually see anyone going away over the cash shop. That in itself speaks volumes.
Comments
Being better how and at what? Having more bags will make me a better player? Having a better companion will make me solo PVE faster? So? You people are amazing
Being able to make money way faster with profession booster packs and having access to better weapons low-paying customers need to grind ages for will make you better. Some stuff simply demands an insanely long grind.
Then they should adopt the DDO business model. Period. The VIP sub can be a great source of money. VIP players could re-spec without paying zen. How can i choose a power correctly if I'm playing with my first char? You can't measure a power effectiveness without put three points on it.
Sorry for my bad grammar.
Yeah the problem is the legitimate concerns are drowned out in the tide of "OMG game is going to Failzorz!!!" The drama trolls pile on to every complaint and end up lumping all the complainers in the same group.
I played STO since early beta and I have seen the exact same people make the exact same post about the game failing and how they were uninstalling and never coming back....yet sixteen hours, seventy two hours, six months later they are still around and still making the same copy and paste hatred.
It makes what comes from the forums irrelevant.
And I totally concur with stormdragon, the forums have become the hunting grounds of the whinners and complainers, so much so, that it is difficult to find and discuss the real issues and problems. Want to know why devs have trouble discerning what is or is not a real problem within the game? Just continue perusing these pages, the evidence is there in black and white.
I personally think revenue would be better to raise by instead having a soft cap of level 30 which you have to pay say $20 to remove and then the benefits of the cash shop isn't better (stats wise) gear but rather vanity or offers other benefits that aren't pure stat based improves similar to how TF2 offers gear that records stats, is visually better or what not.
I'm not against expensive vanity items, I am against expensive gear that gives statistical benefits however. I think more could have been done in this system, like gear could be uncrafted to recover some of their components for example. Nightmare boxes could have given more vanity gear and craft materials (rather than simply giving superior gear) as well as giving perhaps other things like mini-game items or what not.
Also as far as I can currently see, things don't carry over to other characters, so if I raise a second character do I need to really spend another $200 just to get the same vanity items I already have on my main? what about a 3rd or 4th character... With TF2 you class specific things for sure but there are things that work on multiple classes too as well like some hats/vanity gear, weapons and action slot items
just ask yourself - if they charged Zen for the ability to strafe, would you pay? I mean you can do everything else and you can play the game fine.... but you can't strafe unless you pay. would you?
So what you saying is, if I don't pay I can do the same in more time,if I pay I can do it faster. Well it makes sense no?
Yes, it's a pattern that you see in a lot of places, usually by kids or adults with the emotional stability of a 16 years old with a bad case of acne ....
It's a shame because it drowns all serious and constructive discussion.
There is being silly and then.. there is this
Oh i forgot to add - you can buy the ability to strafe or you can get it for free but you have to do this one thing twice a day, every day for 4 months...
DDO (like many other games) was a P2P that came out, sold boxes and for several months (actually over a year) was fully P2P, THEN moved to FREEMIUM.
NWO is a straight F2P title with no box purchase. Though I wish they made it P2P, at least people would have to pay to spaz all over the forums.....
You realize that the ability to move and bags/mounts/respec are on a completely different level? No? Thought so
I failed to clarify that my most important point is that this system can't and won't make for a stable, large playerbase. People will just leave if they see that even though they put way more effort in the game itself, some other players will always be faster with everything than you will be if you don't keep on spending. I'd really like this game to become some kind of subscription based one, or with a DDO model. PWE is just digging this game's own grave, altough I can imagine they don't care that much since they can get money from other titles. I am willing to pay, aslong as it's not this kind of system where you have to keep on spending to be efficient.
He isn't being silly... he in fact trying to tell us, with a little naive example, how this dev generation is lost, putting some really stupid ideas inside their games without thinking straight. I know that some decisions comes from the publisher suits, but look at Jay Wilson i.e. ... so many stupid ideas came from this guy and ruined D3. And he had the audacity to call the great Diablo game designer a loser, gth Jay Wilson =|
Is a game dev paradigm... Dev should play more games to absorb some good ideas. And this affirmation comes from a guy who works with games
That sums up all the issues with the community right there. :rolleyes:
That was question not a statement.
Yeah I know a lot of people who are saying the same thing, so much for the "OMGzorz! U Forced to Payzorz!!! Evil!!!" A good friend of mine has been unemployed for the past six months and is having a really rough go of it, he downloaded the game and loves it, I told him over vent that I would mail him a Zen card if he would like. "Why?" he replied everything I'm interested in is free plus I just got a Inferno mount from trading on the auction house.
Some gamers think that if they can't have everything available cheap to free now then PWE is a evil company forcing them to gamble. (yes the Glock is at your head making you buy those keys :rolleyes:) The entire premise is ridiculous yet there is no end of hair pulling about it.
Actually saw that afterward my bad.
Now, the game is pretty dull past a moderate amount of time when you realize just how much is cash driven and how many things have been compromised/sacrificed for the cash shop.
Which was probably their plan from the beginning. Launch as an open beta to avoid official reviews and public scrutiny (people do actually hide behind the open beta card), make the 1-20 experience awesome and charge highly inflated rates for stuff on the shop. You make the most return in the shortest space of time before people catch on the game kinda sucks after a few weeks.
Sure, it's free, but since when does "free" mean I have to endure a sub-par moneymaking product? If I wanted that, i'd hit up some Farmville or Simcity Social. This was supposed to be a AAA title from a respected developer. Not a shortlived money making scheme that has poor production quality. (engine, artwork reusing, no real economy, dungeons are copy/paste mechanics and content, foundry is rehashed out of STO)
Disappointing really that Cryptic has had to sink this low to keep afloat. They should have copied the GW2 model and went from there; it was definitely one of the best in the industry.
See if you want to spend money on the game, then spend it on what you feel is worth it. I have been having this discussion on MWO. Spend if you can afford it, don't if you can't.
I blame the farmville generation that have grown accustomed to being nickle and dimed and paying to win. I hate WoW with a passion but your post is ridiculous fanboy nonsense.
Bingo!
Why ***** about prices, it's like complaining about the weather. I can understand someone not wanting to spend a certain amount for a certain item, what I can't understand is this atavistic need to run to the forums threatening everything up an to firebombing Cryptics offices and insulting anyone who decides to pay for something.
That is just beyond the pale.
I reckon it has more to do with the producer (PWE) than the devs
Well if it is it's fanboy nonsense that is shared by a great many developers as it was a big topic of discussion at last years GDC, we are living in the most self entitled, petty generation in history. They are more concerned what other people have than what they have and automatically view something as evil if it isn't free.
Perfect example I teach advanced network principles part time at our local community college, one student there who is barely Nineteen, received a patent for two pieces of software he created in High School and is now very well off, He is automatically hated at the school by a majority of the students because of it. I asked one student why he didn't like him. "He has more money than I do" was his answer, I was boggled by the admission of it.
And before you say that you don't care who has what maybe you don't, but a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of the crying on this forum stems from the fact that some people for whatever reason can't afford things they want, but instead of being okay with that they scream "I can so afford it, I just think it's stupid and the people who pay are fools!!"
I see a lot of crying, but I don't actually see anyone going away over the cash shop. That in itself speaks volumes.