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Am I bad at tanking or is tanking bad in this game?
misterlaz
Member Posts: 10 Arc User
Let me preface this by saying I just hit level 20, so there is possibly a lot that I have yet to unlock and figure out. If this is a matter of me just not having a proper tanking toolkit, please let me know so that I have something to look forward to. As it stands, I'm considering changing classes to something that doesn't frustrate me so much.
That being said... I come from many many years of tanking in other MMO games, and in this game, it frustrates the hell out of me. In every game I've tanked in, there is this paradigm that the tank holds aggro on as much as he can so that the rest of the group doesn't get their faces eaten off and giving the healer a primary target to focus on healing. You turn on your tank stance, you do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> poor DPS but lots of threat, and all the enemies attack you so that the entire group doesn't die.
This game seems to try to shift that paradigm so as that you do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> poor DPS and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> poor threat UNLESS you have a target marked and are ALWAYS blocking. Sure, you can press R (or whatever you have it bound to) in order to AoE taunt, but that only lasts a few seconds. As soon as your block meter runs out, the mob you had marked forgets you even exist and goes and beats on some random schmo.
Unless a target is marked, this game seemingly has no concept of threat whatsoever. I'm duoing with a friend who is playing a cleric, and she is constantly getting all the aggro despite me doing my best to use my primary attack (which cleaves) and my AoE (first "daily" ability). But despite the fact that I am a tank and have AoE's the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of enemies, they always ignore me and go straight for other party members.
The only thing I have figured out how to successfully tank is ONE target. If he's solo (like a boss) that's fine, but if he has adds or something, I can't do anything to get them to hit me and ignore the rest of the group.
So -- am I bad at tanking, or is this game trying to stray away from the tank having the focus of every enemy there is?
That being said... I come from many many years of tanking in other MMO games, and in this game, it frustrates the hell out of me. In every game I've tanked in, there is this paradigm that the tank holds aggro on as much as he can so that the rest of the group doesn't get their faces eaten off and giving the healer a primary target to focus on healing. You turn on your tank stance, you do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> poor DPS but lots of threat, and all the enemies attack you so that the entire group doesn't die.
This game seems to try to shift that paradigm so as that you do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> poor DPS and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> poor threat UNLESS you have a target marked and are ALWAYS blocking. Sure, you can press R (or whatever you have it bound to) in order to AoE taunt, but that only lasts a few seconds. As soon as your block meter runs out, the mob you had marked forgets you even exist and goes and beats on some random schmo.
Unless a target is marked, this game seemingly has no concept of threat whatsoever. I'm duoing with a friend who is playing a cleric, and she is constantly getting all the aggro despite me doing my best to use my primary attack (which cleaves) and my AoE (first "daily" ability). But despite the fact that I am a tank and have AoE's the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of enemies, they always ignore me and go straight for other party members.
The only thing I have figured out how to successfully tank is ONE target. If he's solo (like a boss) that's fine, but if he has adds or something, I can't do anything to get them to hit me and ignore the rest of the group.
So -- am I bad at tanking, or is this game trying to stray away from the tank having the focus of every enemy there is?
Post edited by misterlaz on
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this skill is a "at will" skill wich charges you to the mob(gap closer with 0 cd), in addition to the dmg u do to the mob u are targeting, you also mark all the mobs that are next to this mob.
tho you are right, tanking in this game is not so balanced.
i dont understand why the aoe taunt can hit only 5 mobs and why Frontline Surg can hit only 3 mobs while cw can hit all the mobs in his range with no limits(wich makes it impossible to take aggro whith big spawns).
btw, at lvl 20 i dont know why u are saying poor *** dmg, with my guardian till lvl 40 i was in the top 2 in most dmg and always number 1 in dmg taken...at low lvls guardian is basicly a god...its getting harder at higher lvls.
- Guardian is a bit lackluster at the earlier instances and zones. What I would suggest doing is not focusing on trying to tank everything, but tanking the mobs with the grey border on their HP or the big *** looking mobs. The small trash will get AoE'd down without issue and should be able to be face tanked by anyone (including your cleric). Once I started to learn this and focus on this, the instances became so much easier to deal with.
Griffeth - GW Fighter - Beholder Shard
Twitch - WoW and NWO Gameplay - YouTube Channel
GF/GWF Gameplay Highlights/Dungeon Runs
GF - Tanks Boss
TR - Dmg on boss
CW - controls adds
GWF - kills adds
Cleric obviously keeps everyone alive.
This to me seems perfect in dungeons. As to your statement for running your duo or even solo, It's hard to keep every mob off your party. Almost impossible it seems. I am still low level GF so I feel your pain. But like Slayer said, I'm either #1 or #2 in damage given and ALWAYS #1 in damage taken. Plus, if you have aggro on other mobs and one is attacking your cleric, just focus on the mob on your cleric. you can take tons of damage. Just takes time to get used to. And once you do get used to it, it's really fun to play and you can start controlling mobs a little better.
Thanks for the responses, guys.
If that's the case, it's a shame that all the armor looks the same. I'm level 20 and I still look like I'm level 1.
But that's a huge tangent from this thread and a topic for another time/forum.
The problem comes in when you have a GF, 3 rogues, and 1 GWF for a dungeon. I've been queued like that more than once. It gets really ugly really fast. Balanced groups with one of each class are ideal.
I feel much better now! :-)
I really hope we get some more tools in the future, because right now I feel like the boss babysitter. "Hey guys I'm going to take this mob and go stand in a corner until you all kill everything else!"
I won't go on a long rant, but it's true. They're absolutely useless in this game.
It's a lot more interesting system to me than just DPS/tank/healer.
The game isn't like CoH at all. Champions online however is somewhat similar to this game, and I am fairly positive Champions and Neverwinter run on the same engine. I have a feeling you are getting those two messed up, the tanks where kind of akward in CO.
Tanks do have threat/aggro holding issues in Champions Online. It had more or less settled into a decent state after a while, but then they put out big combat system changes with the Free-to-Play transition and broke it again. You can make any attack a taunt ability in Champions Online, by slapping an advantage on it - but then you need to make sure you spam those suckers. And even then you'll have issues keeping aggro off the DPSers.
Let's not even talk about tanking in Star Trek Online. It exists as a concept in space combat, but again you have to really really work at it, by basically flying around and desperately AoE'ing everything.
So it's pretty clear that the core Cryptic team that has worked on all three games isn't really keen on the AoE aggro glue-ball style of tanking. I'm of mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, my job's a lot harder as a Guardian Fighter. On the other hand, it's probably more engaging.
Pretty much accurate. Bosses in this game revolve around controlling and killing their adds, alone they are very non-threatening.
To be honest, anyone can take a boss into a corner and tank it just fine. It's silly, but it's possible because the bosses themselves are very slow and telegraphed, so it's easy to recognize when they are going to do something dangerous and dodge away. It's unfortunate, but this causes other classes to become more desirable because they bring more to the table then simply tanking the least threatening element of a boss encounter.
I didn't mean to rant, but it's just the present reality. The durability of the class is there but the overall ability to manipulate enemies isn't, and to be completely honest, you're lot in life shouldn't be limited to just tanking 1 element of a boss encounter; and you certainly shouldn't be second class citizens when it comes to agro.
Of course I could be getting some of the exact details wrong, it's been years, but basically all I am saying is the Aggro magnet tanks in that game where made under Cryptic's watch.
Lemme correct this for you if you don't mind!
GF - Helps control adds (there is no reason to tank bosses, they have no auto attacks to make a tank necesary. TR can avoid the dmg
where as the GF has to sit there and block (take dmg if guard breaks)
TR - Damages and TANKS boss
CW - Controls and kills Adds
GWF - Kills adds
Cleric - Heals and kites in large circles
most bosses have at list 3 aoe attacks with at list 2 seconds cast time, every one can just see it and move away from the red circle.
their auto attacks are very weak, on my gf i find auto attks of bosses hit me for no mroe then 300 dmg, this is a joke.
their strong auto attacks are slow as hell and everyone can avoide them.
IMO tanks should be able to help the team by absorbing most of the incoming dmg, tanks shouldn't be able to do 1 thing in the whole dungeon which is tanking 2-3 bosses and when there are no bosses, feel totaly useless(and even in the boss fights u do nothing but moving and avoiding the boss dmg).
they should do somthing or we will find GF a totaly useless class at the high GC runs.
edit:
i must say...GF is an extremly fun class.
as a main tank in every game that i played, i find tanking in this game VERY FUN, but when u cant really convert all this fun to usefulness, its a problem.
and sry for the bad english
It may sound unorthodox to have a dps class tank the boss, but with a 0 cooldown charge that can mark multiple targets, and that AoE taunt, GF's are WAY better suited to pulling adds off the healer, probably the best at it besides a CW.
I gave up reading here. You aren't even into your paragon yet. Please don't waste time posting these type of threads until you've developed your character. Attention Deficit Disorder anyone?
Go play a rogue.
Depends on the boss.
Depends on the group.
Some bosses really dont need a *tank* on them at all. Some your better off putting a tank on adds. Generally in Pugs I'll tank the boss and as many *strong* adds as I can grab. This is B/C I know I can hold the boss and not die. In a group of friends we take it on a boss by boss basis. Some I tank all the time, some I aggro then get on adds, some I let others tank and just deal with adds. Its not as clear cut as Tank > Boss, DPS > Add or the other way around.
All the GF that fail at doing their job are the kind that want to sit tight in a corner with all the mobs and the boss on them and dont move. If that what you were intending to do, well, you rolled the wrong class my friend.
And as many have said, tanking (how I hate using this word for what the GF role is, because it is NOT tanking) in this game is about mobility, interception, stunning/knocking back at the right moment, saving taunts for when the boss summons a gazzillion adds that have nothing in mind than to feast on your white clothed cleric and have the wizards as desert.
Forget about saving the rogues and the GWF, they can handle themselves well and get out of trouble, focus on keeping the adds/boss away from the cleric so that he can do his job and nothing can stop your party!
Edit: I just wanted to add, that there is no ammount of heals or gear that can save you from getting insta gibbed if you have 20+ adds on you. You are simply not supposed to tank in this game, you are supposed to be a guardian!
- DPS cc'ing and focusing down small adds
- you cleric not running towards you if newly spawned adds come his way
- tanking pets not drawing aggro from mobs so that you can keep stuff bunched up
- nobody knocking mobs out of your melee range just because they feel like it
So, yes. Tanking is a mess.
And why the TAB-Mark gets removed as soon as you get hit is beyond me, it basicly makes it the least useful 'class ability' in the game. I'd rather have another encounter ability slot on my guardian any day of the week. : P
Having tanked in several other mmo's over the years, and having tanked in this one at 60 in epic dungeons....most of what folks are saying here is accurate (even when they seem to be contradicting one another).
So, some observations. I have some ideas for solutions at the end, if you want to skip all the reading.
Threat is clearly an issue. The GF has such limited threat generation that it can barely be called a tank. Yeah, they function better as a body guard to the party than a true tank. Clerics generate massive aoe threat, rogues generate massive single target threat, and the GF has some backwards threat mechanics; not the least of which is how the mark functions. Why does the mark generate threat until you get hit? If the idea of the GF is to tank....and you can place marks (single or aoe) that help with threat but then go away as soon as you take damage....then what's the point of the mark? If the GF's role is to take the dmg so the group doesn't...why give their main threat abilities the effect of going away the instant they get dmg'd by mobs? Like a taunt that only works as long as you're not attacked.....a taunt that only works when it doesn't work....ie, mark is broken.
As far as the view of classic aoe threat magnet....that is a more old school rigid way of thinking. I do like that newer mmo's are moving towards dps and healers having to look after themselves more rather than relying on that 1 dude to make or break the fight (though arguably healers in most other mmo's have had to still look after themselves anyway). That said, the GF can tank groups of stuff....sometimes. Enforced threat is good for that, but doesn't last long enough to truly be a viable group tanking ability on it's own.
Knight's Valor should theoretically help, but it doesn't....it's most useful as a supplement to the cleric aoe heal/shield (for those unfamiliar, at 3 ranks it can redirect 50% of the party's dmg to the GF 50% of the time if always used on c/d). The paragon tree spec for it increases the GF's dmg resist by 5% when using it and increases dmg and threat of Enforced Threat, so those 2 together help with party survivability. KV it supposed to generate threat based on a portion of dmg that was redirected; but the issue is that the cleric aoe heal/shield mitigates so much dmg most of the time, that enough is never redirected to the GF to help with threat for diddly squat. Again, it's more like a bodyguard ability....and supplements the cleric aoe, especially since it is party wide rather than a circle, so people outside the cleric circle can still get some protection.
Then there's the shield stab at will. Ok, this one works to a degree....you repeatedly stab a single target (or group if you can get mobs close enough together) and you can hold aggro pretty well. Until you have to move. Or until your guard breaks. Which is every 3-5 seconds in a boss fight. Most epic dungeon bosses have some really big hits that if you try to eat will break the guard in 1-2 hits, then you can't stab and the boss faces the rogue or cleric and proceeds to puke out aoe's. So then you try to move instead....and stop stabbing....and you lose threat and the boss turns on the cleric or rogue etc etc. Another semi broken tanking mechanic. More useful if you can get trash grouped up using enforced threat, then stab the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of it and hold trash to keep them off the cleric while it's dps'd.
So, the GF has a bit of an identity crisis. Is it a tank or not? Is it a bodyguard or not? If it's a tank it needs to have way more threat generation, at least for a single target. If it's a body guard, it needs more ability to keep groups of trash off the party. Still though, this is beta, and the point of beta is to address issues like this (hopefully).
So, some solutions:
1) Replace the stupid mark ability with some kind of a real taunt. Something that when used in conjunction with dmg can help generate enough threat to at least hold a single target. That way you can at least tank a boss and not have to worry about losing threat the moment you try to face him or reposition. Or at least make it so the mark lasts a predetermined time regardless, and doesn't cancel on dmg. A tank that loses threat the moment it's attacked is a totally broken tank mechanic.
2) Take the heroic feat that increases threat by 5/10/15% and change it to something like 25/50/75% threat, so the GF can actually generate threat. This alone would have a huge impact on functionality, and at the same time not result in any drastic changes to the class mechanics.
3) Change the Knight's Valor so that instead of generating threat based on a portion of redirected dmg, it generates threat by redirecting a portion of the threat from each protected target. That way it can "leech" threat from a target, or prevent them from generating as much threat, and at the same time help the GF build threat. Just enough so that when used in conjunction with other abilities the GF can hold threat on at least a reasonable portion of the mobs.
I don't think you really know what ADD is =(. Notice that he ponders his frustration and is seeking an outside perspective to understand himself and the class. Unlike you, who already "gave up" reading, he has the patience and wisdom to ponder and figure out why. If anything, your lack of ability keep on reading because of your frustration, and your decision to give up on him to turn your attention to another topic, is closer to the definition of ADD than the OP's behavior.
In other words, don't be a jerk because he seems like a nice guy!
This is pretty much spot on, But random queue is anything but perfect....
3 Rogues, Tank, GWF
2 CW, Rogue, GWF, Tank
and so on...
I also must assume that if they are underpowered, Crytpic will be tweaking the classes over time anyway.
While it may be true that in the lower levels, there isnt a huge need for a tank to tank the boss, this becomes far less so at higher levels.
I recently did the mad dragon dungeon, and holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that boss NEEDS a tank to hold its aggro. I was holding its attention for ages, down to about 1.5 of its health, and then another large group of ads spawned, I though id make it easier on the healer by grabbing the big pit fiend guy as well as the dragon, this was a mistake, I couldn't handle that much DPS and went down, little within 1 minute (we'd been fighting this boss for 10 mins) they were all dead, they couldn't handle the dragons AoEs, you need a tank for that :P
I'm enjoying the tanking though, I like that its different, its very tactical, I have to know just how much I can tank and to keep there AoEs away from the group