Whats the point of Guardian Fighters?

brachra200

So, having experienced my first dungeon, One has to ask what the point of guardian fighters even is? Am I supposed to be a tank?

Sure I can take damage like a beast, Sure i deal Decent damage which equals Decent threat + taunts etc...

But apparently a level 16 Rogue and a 17 Control wizard can 2man anything in the instance, and every class in the game Out-threats a Guardian....

No trolling "Learn to play", This is flat out HAMSTER at how Useless tanks in this game are, and how little tools to not fail they give us.

execetera

The first dungeon isn't exactly a great example to ever set standards by.

knightfalz

You can be a tank. The Guardian Fighter is the best at tanking single, dangerous foes. There are also those that focus on making DPS builds for them. The game gets harder as you go along. On my GWF, I noticed it start to shift a fair bit when I got above 30. It took awhile to adjust to it.

brachra200

Define "Shifts a fair bit" like, will i gain the ability to actually generate threat and do my job? I mean i cant help the morons who go LUL and run off and pull everytyhing until they die, then yell at me to "do my job"..... But it feels like i am a useless class in groups, Little to no ability to gain threat, Barely hold aggro on anything past your 3second Taunt thing, and I do damage like it already went out of style...

bottlehands

Nope they designed the class to be useless.

brachra200

Aside from the ******* above me's totally helpful comment, What I mean is....Do i ever see the ability to tank "Groups" of things? It bothers me to just let Adds run all over and rip apart fellow group members.

knightfalz

brachra200 wrote: »

Aside from the ******* above me's totally helpful comment, What I mean is....Do i ever see the ability to tank "Groups" of things? It bothers me to just let Adds run all over and rip apart fellow group members.

The Guardian Fighter is the best at tanking single, dangerous foes.

The Great Weapon Fighter is the sturdy fellow that zips about taking out adds.

So, in dangerous content, it's a team effort between the two.

brachra200

Okay so then it could be said that eventually the ability for Every other class in the game to laughably tank Anything (including final bosses) will go away?

knightfalz

Yes, it could.

brachra200

Hmm...as in, Your not sure?

flynnetar

High level GF here. Yes, you can tank. However, you should be doing it already.

For instance, Mark is not a taunt. Stab is.

knightfalz

As in.... Yes... you could say that... As in... Yes... that would be accurate.

GF have the ability to be stationary in dangerous places (red patches), and still take very limited damage with the shield up. A GWF would be better off moving out of dangerous places as he can not mitigate the damage as well.

This allows the GF to occupy the most dangerous place, right in front of the big bad, and work at keeping aggro on him. This keeps a lot of damage off the rest of the party. The GWF will zip about taking out as may adds as he can while avoiding as many red zones as he can, to further protect others from damage. He can take a good bit of damage, but not like the GF can. The shield gives very strong damage mitigation.

korv0x

Biggest benefit of the GF that goes unmentioned is that he enables bosses to be kept relatively in one place rather than spinning around cleaving the dps. This means everyone (not just the rogue) gets reliable attacks of opportunity on it, which will contribute more dps than having an extra dps in there.

And later leveling dungeons and max level content (40+) most boss mobs will nearly one shot a wizard or two shot a rogue. You really need a dedicated tank at that point.

brachra200

That helps alot, and @Flynnetar... Mark could be used as a "taunt" of sorts if it was combined with the Threat generation feat that can be added to it. I mean +66% Threat generation when mark is active doesn't hurt.

brachra200

Really appreciate all the responses im getting. Because if at one point i wasnt going to be able to "Tank" then i was just going to Reroll DPS. I've been tanking since EQ1, through EQ2/WoW,SWTOR/ you name it....I dont want the ability to do so taken away from me, I guess if i had to find another game i would have, glad i dont though

rkv13

Yes, Guardians are useful -- more than that they can be powerful. It takes time and effort to learn the class but if you keep playing and watch other Guardian Fighters you'll see good ones out there who know the subtler mechanics that really work.

By my observation you'll never be a real AoE Tank. Neverwinter differs from WoW, Warhammer and many other MMOs in this way, but GFs and everyone else too must simply get used to it. A competent GF can and will keep aggro on whatever target(s) he chooses, but there are often/always adds that are out of his effective range. That means Clerics will be taking the aggro (heals generate aggro on everything within a radius of the event) and must either tank it (which requires the right build) or receive aid from other classes. TR's can turn aside from the big enemy for a short time and clear the adds quickly, CW's can disable the adds and nuke them down, and GWF's in particular are suited to AoE threat generation.

zajurat

OP, judging by your sentences, you are or were a WoW player.

So tell me this. You are rerolling a new tank. You're queuing for normal Deadmines (around lv 18) and got in, only to find 10 minutes later, the whole group actually doesn't need you and mow down the whole instance all the way to last boss, since you can't keep aggro because you don't have enough tanking skills at your level.

After that, you go to forum and HAMSTER about you being useless, asking whats the point of having tank and screaming that end game raids will not need tanks at all only because of your epeen hurts from running 18 dungeon.

Tell me now, how rich is that?

pyke1

zajurat wrote: »

OP, judging by your sentences, you are or were a WoW player.

So tell me this. You are rerolling a new tank. You're queuing for normal Deadmines (around lv 18) and got in, only to find 10 minutes later, the whole group actually doesn't need you and mow down the whole instance all the way to last boss, since you can't keep aggro because you don't have enough tanking skills at your level.

After that, you go to forum and HAMSTER about you being useless, asking whats the point of having tank and screaming that end game raids will not need tanks at all only because of your epeen hurts from running 18 dungeon.

Tell me now, how rich is that?

About as rich as... you are an idiot. Generalizations are a Logical Fallacy. Look it up, moron.

picuira

yeah... i would hope you tried that at vanilla wow ^^ it'd be fun to see a deadmines wipe...

mconosrep

pyke1 wrote: »

About as rich as... you are an idiot. Generalizations are a Logical Fallacy. Look it up, moron.

Technically what he said was a parallel, and not a generalization

Either way, his point still stands - at lower levels in both WOW and NWO tanks are not needed, whereas at later level dungeons they are.

cdrbrigade

Last night I got a Most damage taken and most dps out.I was definitely surprised.(Tank here)

perfectself82

brachra200 wrote: »

No trolling "Learn to play", This is flat out HAMSTER at how Useless tanks in this game are, and how little tools to not fail they give us.

This is a pretty bold statement considering you only just ran the very first dungeon.

The dynamics of group play change as you level. Early dungeons are pretty easy/forgiving, as they should be, but higher level dungeons become much less so. This is the norm for most games really, if you have ever played another MMO you should know the first few dungeons are generally pretty facerolltastic.

zajurat wrote: »

OP, judging by your sentences, you are or were a WoW player.

So tell me this. You are rerolling a new tank. You're queuing for normal Deadmines (around lv 18) and got in, only to find 10 minutes later, the whole group actually doesn't need you and mow down the whole instance all the way to last boss, since you can't keep aggro because you don't have enough tanking skills at your level.

After that, you go to forum and HAMSTER about you being useless, asking whats the point of having tank and screaming that end game raids will not need tanks at all only because of your epeen hurts from running 18 dungeon.

Tell me now, how rich is that?

This guy gets it. He lacks tact, but he gets it.

pyke1 wrote: »

About as rich as... you are an idiot. Generalizations are a Logical Fallacy. Look it up, moron.

You sound mad. Confused and mad. I suggest checking your jimmies for ruffles.

brachra200

I understand your point Zajurat, as trollish and childish as it may be... But at least the mechanics of tanking were still there around the time of deadmines when i did them. And if i remember correctly, whenever someone tried to bum-rush the bosses by themselves they got killed rather quickly. a tank may not have been "NEEDED" but it was still a step above having some random dps try to tank everything.

simply put, may not have been necessary but the mechanic was still there.


Also, why does everybody have to compare everything to WoW? I mean ****, i remember installing EQ1 on release day...Remember playing the MMO neverwinter nights before that "Yes there was an mmo named Neverwinter before this one" WoW isnt the only MMORPG on the planet guys. Im sure if i tried i could find a problem with every game i play, but were not talking about WoW here...were talking about this game, and this situation. so whats the point in trolling me about any other game?

xanthell

So, my rant now. I'm a lvl 20 GF and I think is single target threat gen is adequate. If you played eq1, neverwinter nights, and wow before wrath of the lich you'd realize that not all tanks were meant to be button smash hold all the mobs, faceroll. It will take skill and the right spec/moves to tank in neverwinter and I love it. I am only at the low skirmish and instance but I'm constantly taking 3xs + more damage then the next, usually 4th on damage chart. It's not an aoe tank, the aoe taunt is not used for tanking it used to get mobs off the healer. Quit QQing and start working on strategys to tank. It works, trust me.

perfectself82

brachra200 wrote: »

I understand your point Zajurat, as trollish and childish as it may be... But at least the mechanics of tanking were still there around the time of deadmines when i did them. And if i remember correctly, whenever someone tried to bum-rush the bosses by themselves they got killed rather quickly. a tank may not have been "NEEDED" but it was still a step above having some random dps try to tank everything.

simply put, may not have been necessary but the mechanic was still there.


Also, why does everybody have to compare everything to WoW? I mean ****, i remember installing EQ1 on release day...Remember playing the MMO neverwinter nights before that "Yes there was an mmo named Neverwinter before this one" WoW isnt the only MMORPG on the planet guys. Im sure if i tried i could find a problem with every game i play, but were not talking about WoW here...were talking about this game, and this situation. so whats the point in trolling me about any other game?

Offering a parallel or direct comparison between two games in the same genre with very similar overall theme is not trolling.

WoW was obviously not the first MMO but it was (and still is) the most popular and widely known western style MMO, that is why people make direct comparisons and references to it when discussing other games within the same genre. When EQ came out we all compared it to MUDs, when WoW came out we all compared it to EQ, and so on and so forth until today everything is compared to WoW because WoW is the elephant in the room. I could compare Neverwinter to DDO or Warhammer if it makes you feel better? I could compare it to City of Heroes in the same way. Early content does not require strong tanking mechanics because low level tanks don't have access to the tools they would need to complete such content. If we rush to give tanks all their tanking skills in the first 10-20 levels we will make solo content slow and tedious because you can't kill a mob with aggro management skills :P

Dungeons should have a progression, ideally each one will offer a new challenge and teach you to use the tools at your disposal as you gain them. Not just for tanks, but for every role. Whether or not Neverwinter has done this perfectly is of course debatable, I think they have done rather well personally. To run one dungeon and then come and say tanks are useless or that they should retune the early game dungeons so that tanks have a greater impact is pretty silly. The mechanics are meant to be forgiving, not every tank has 15 years of tanking experience to fall back on.

brachra200

I will agree, it is a bit overkill for me to say tanks are useless this early in the game.... I am making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. So with that section of my OP removed, my question was still valid "Does it get better?" which I did get quite a few good answers to.

And as for the comparing everything to WoW thing, its just a thing im tired of hearing honestly. Anything and everything MMO based that comes out nowadays im getting tired of seeing chat filled with "WoW clone" etc. But you're right, A WoW clone is an EQ clone is a Mud clone...etc....

Either way, Thank you all for the help.

quiickteds

I was thinking the same thing at the beginning of the game, at around 10-20 I was starting to think I made a bad decision choosing a tank, but I'd never maxed a tank before in an MMO so I decided to go with it. When I reached the higher levels, I started to notice I was gaining alot more threat than I was before aswell as being able to deal with damage + dealing decent damage also. When I reached 60 (earlier today) and entered some epic dungeons, I found I was really a tank. I was keeping threat, dealing great damage and also absorbing ALOT of damage. The tank is a good role, I understand it lacks at the beginning but towards the end they're great fun.

frychikn

honest GF just seems like garbage.

most other classes get some awesome mechanic at 10.... GF get a ****ing mark...

like really? i guess some people find that fun... i dont even know..

kerrigan666

I am having the same problems. I am GF lvl 26 now and did the this instance 3 times so far. Whenever I have a rogue in my pt with equal lvl i cannot hold aggro no matter what. He will be getting aggro almost half the fight at the boss. I have changed a lot of my gear from defence to damage, my talents are all + threat and still i can't seem to be able to keep the boss on me at all times. Being a low lvl, I wanna ask if it gets easier later on. I have tanked in a lot of games, but never have i seen such a terrible tank class at least early on. Please tell me if at high levels i will be able to hold aggro at the very least just on bosses. If not, i will stop wasting time and reroll a rogue

brachra200

frychikn wrote: »

honest GF just seems like garbage.

most other classes get some awesome mechanic at 10.... GF get a ****ing mark...

like really? i guess some people find that fun... i dont even know..

All *****ing aside on my part, I just have a feeling the "Tanking" world is not for you... This is why Tanks are hard to find in most MMORPG's, it takes a certain type of person to want to just stand there and get beat on while everyone else has fun ... Funny when you think about it, Me coming on here *****ing explains my worry, If you remove a tanks ability to be a tank....then hes basically useless :P which is what i was worried about. but Maybe tanking isnt your thing.

pinchz

It doesn't change in T2 epic dungeons. You're better off bringing another cleric instead of a GF.