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No one is expecting everything in this game to be free
azrael4271
Member Posts: 132 Arc User
Its getting ridiculous how these arguments against cash shop is people want everything for free. I really don't think thats how people are viewing this. Some of these complaints are very valid points and I don't see how its not wanting to give the developer money. Things like the highest tier potion only being available in the cash shop has people irked as it should. Thats something that should be available as a normal drop, the 200 stack of them should be what the cash shop is for to make sure you have them. The respec token is another hot issue. These items aren't something against supporting the developer. I want to support the developer by buying items in the cash shop. I want to buy awesome mounts and companions or even cool armor skins. I just don't want to pay for things that should be included with basic gameplay. I have spent hundreds on LotRO after it went f2p, subscribing sometimes for the bonus to new characters. I don't want this game to be looked at like TOR. Tor is currently the joke among quality mmos as they charge for such simple things. I am already loving this game. I just want it to have a solid reputation with quality entertainment. Theres nothing wrong with that.
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With the game not being released yet, people will always find something they don't like and they will voice their concerns about it. Unfortunately there are a lot of people demanding things to be free and such, but I see this to be the newer generation of gamer, where they want to have everything handed to them on a plate and these will be the same people who will cry out for nerfs on both the pve content and indeed the pvp, when they are being dominated by people.
We never get what we want, but people need to make sure they voice their concerns in a valid and mature manner, so the developers can take their comments into consideration. Also remember that the developers behind NW do not control the cash store and Perfect World haven't made any comment about this and the value of their things that they sell are the same across the board for their other products. Lowering the price for things because a few are not happy that they can't buy a pet or mount, would make many from those other communities cry out in frustration that one set of players are being heard where the others are not.
So you see this is something very difficult to balance, but people need to give it time. Remember Neverwinter is Free 2 Play and as such you do not need to use the Cash Store to be able to progress and challenge others in PvP or to do well in PvE. Just login when your time comes and have fun.
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I never, not once, felt my other potions weren't adequate in all the time I spent testing.
I also don't see respecs being required. There are certain merits to the complaints but many experienced with Cryptic say those things get addressed. Most of the complaints will likely be solved in short order or are nothing more than fearing Cryptic won't continue long standing business practices. If they don't trust me I'll be backing you guys up.
Respecs shouldn't be free or common. They should only be used if you have to. I personally don't see me using a single respec unless Cryptic forces me to in which case they will likely be free.
Remember, we're playing a D&D Game here. It's also an MMO so concessions have to be made and I promise the hardcore D&D player base is making plenty.
The fact you can respec at all is, to many, a concession.
That's my best advice, understand it's not all about money.
It comes down to the fact this is both a D&D game and an MMO, too.
I feel that this is really what Azrael referred to. I've found it a bit difficult to get constructive discussions going, because as he said, half the time you bring up a concern, like the respec tokens here, you are told, "You want everything for free!", even if you reason your take on the matter. Or there are personal attacks, like, "LOL, if you are too dumb to pick the right skills, you should have to pay!". That then causes negative reactions and what started as a constructive debate degenerates to mud slinging.
On a positive note, though, there are plenty of mature, interesting, considerate and respectable folks here with whom you can disagree in a constructive manner without either side going off the deep end. And I find there are more of them here than on the typical MMO-centered forum. So, this is good.
What would you rather, a $60 dollar box game with a $15 monthly subscription where everyone is truly equal? Or a F2P game where the people who don't want to spend a single cent on the game don't have too, and can, with a little more work, get all the stuff as everyone else?
In the end, F2P or not, this game needs money to run. At least here you're getting the option not to spend money. The basic question is do you want to spend money, or have the option not too?
Instead of complaining, thank those people shelling out money on this game. Because of them, your playing for free.
BTW thanks for the friendly edit
Here's the question that folks should be focusing on, "Will the current system in place (Ztore prices in general) promote or hinder community growth?".
I personally think it will hinder growth and stability, so no, I absolutely don't agree with the current price of a respect token.
I love how you mentioned putting yourself in somebody else's shoes. That's what my previous comment is about.
I'm hearing you all out. My point of view is as a D&D Player who grew up loving D&D I don't want respects at all. That's not fair to the MMO Crowd and nor would it work in any MMO, though.
I am absolutely 100% against commonly respec'ing. If you're respec'ing once per week that goes against what I feel D&D is all about.
Some of you look at the game and say MMO, give me MMO respec'ing rules. That's not D&D.
So in my opinion, $5 is beyond reasonable.
It's not reasonable if you can't test out powers, I concede that. It's not reasonable if you have to change because Cryptic made a change to the game.
But it's reasonable if you make a mistake or get bored and want to change things up.
This is completely not true.
I'm expecting Dewdrop Ale to be free!
What items or services do you suggest they "sell"? Keep in mind, it needs to be something important/popular enough not only to pay for the servers to run this game, and pay for all of its production costs, but also turn a profit. What do you think they can do to accomplish this outside of charging for the game and/or monthly subscriptions?
Nobody expects a spanish inquisition. Our chief weapon is surprize, surprize and fear ... our two weapons! Our two chief weapons are surprize and fear and ruthless efficiency ... Er... Amongst our weapons!
This is hard to answer without having access to numbers and statistics, e.g. sales figures for the cash stores of CO and STO.
Personally, I think everything in the beta cash store looked fine and good to me, with exception of the respec token. I do not feel that it has the potential to be a major seller, but worry that it has the potential to turn people off of the game. I have been advertising the game to a few of my friends and without exception having to pay for something as basic as respeccing almost killed their interest single-handedly. And I cannot blame them. I'm committed to this game and spent €268 ($350) on the founder packs, so it is not that I expect everything for free, but the respec token puts me off because I know it will limit an aspect that I enjoy: experimenting with different character builds and tweaking them.
I actually don't know if you really need to force players to pay. If someone enjoys playing and they are having fun, there is a good chance that they will hand over cash -- through positive encouragement. For instance, I won't mind giving them another fifty bucks for a mount, if they release one that appeals to me. But the moment I feel I have to pay five dollars for fixing a character's skills, I will do so with a bitter taste in my mouth, and that may affect future purchases (and word of mouth). There are other essentials, like bag space or character slots that don't trigger that feeling (because you get a lasting improvement, and you get exactly what you want -- with a respec, you may still not be satisfied with your new skills, because you were not able to try them out before).
Looking at us, and many here, we all handed over substantial amounts of cash and we didn't need to be forced to. We spent this much cash and were happy to do so. This is how it is done. It is like buying a fancy car. Respec tokens, however, are as much fun as buying gasoline.
Again, the fact they are there is a major concession already. The fact they are that cheap is another major concession.
I would personally double to triple their price, again because from my point of view I don't want them there at all.
I'm not of the opinion that I want this to make Cryptic/PWE a profit. I do but that's not my point of view.
My point of view is that the cheaper they are the more commonly they'll be used.
The more commonly they are used the less like D&D the game will run.
And then instead of ticking off the MMO players who want to respec daily you'll be ticking off the D&D Community.
There's a balancing act to be had here.
I want there to be better tools to test builds. I want/expect we'll get free respects occassionally.
But common respecs is just as big of a problem from the opposite side of the spectrum.
This, exactly this. People should want to spend money on things they enjoy in the game. Thats all thats really being said. Mounts, companions, skins, cosmetics, large quanities of in game items, exp boosters, crafting boosters, etc. Those are all things that sell very well in other f2p MMO's most of which have free respecs, or respecs that use a small amount of in-game currency. I understand the D&D crowd does not want respecs at all. I can understand that point too. I am fine with paragon points, stat points etc being permanent. I just want access to the skills. I want to try different skills to see if maybe different skills would mesh better together. I've decided one of my character slots will be used for a TR. Now I've watched videos with people building them different ways and as of now I don't know which way I want to build them with skills. I don't like having to reroll to try something new. I get attached to my character. I have an 80 hunter in WoW that I haven't touched in years but I could never delete him because that is my Vanilla toon. I like to spend time on my characters. I don't want them disposable like my characters in D2 were. Everyone in this thread is being mature about this debate which is a breath of fresh air and I greatly appreciate that.
so from your perspective, the game should be more restrictive and less appealing to the larger player-base, making the game a small community of dedicated players who overall bring in less money for development and implementation. Or are you going to single handedly fund all game expansions and upgrades? You're thinking you, you, you, you. Sorry, I really hate to point fingers but the mentality should be we, as a community and what is going to benefit community growth as well as a constant influx of money along with new players.
The average gold earned by players playing 60 hours after level 60.
That would be the only way I would agree to it being less than 5 dollars.
Again to me and many others it's not a cash issue. You shouldn't be respec'ing any more often than once a month, if ever.
That's the true issue. This is the other side of the debate...you shouldn't be respec'ing.
Cryptic getting revenue for respec'ing is simply an extra perk in my eye for abusing the respec system. Respec'ing shouldn't be common.
If it is, there's a problem.
The title of the game is Dungeons and Dragons: Neverwinter.
While it's an MMO it's also D&D. Neither will survive without the other. We all have to compromise.
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I get what your saying about the respect tokens, it quite literally defines what your character is. This is a tough topic - there are a lot of things to consider.
- The DnD vision of the game
- It would be a good money maker, and this is a free to download/play game
- We are buying/farming for something that other MMO's pretty much give away for free (virtually no cost).
It's hard to keep to the vision of the game and allow it period, but they did... To balance it, they wanted it to be a hefty cost. I don't think there is an easy way to do it. They either sacrifice their DnD vision on respecs, make it easy to get them, and hike up the price somewhere else to make up the money lost, or they keep it like it is.
The problem is that you cannot try out skills, that you cannot have two specs (one for PvP) and that you cannot predict how skills will perform later in the game.
What I don't understand is why it matters to you if other players respec their characters five times a day. How does it affect your playing experience? Is it because respeccing is not covered by the D&D GM materials and it is.a dogmatic concern? I could probably make a long list of aspects of NW that have nothing to do with D&D or go against the spirit. It is not a PnP session, but a MMO with competitive aspects.
I don't disagree.
I only disagree with commonly respec'ing for the sake of being bored or making a mistake.
There's a lot to what makes Dungeons and Dragons, Dungeons and Dragons. It's a rules system, indeed, and it's lore but it's a lot more than that.
One of the parts of D&D which just follows players throughout it all is that every choice you make is meaningful. Most commonly permanent.
If I could choose a motto for D&D it would be "Your choices have consequences."
That's something all versions of D&D have in common. Not only the choice but the consequence. If you choose to attack the village girl you suddenly are being chased out of town and getting hunted for...ages. If you get caught pickpocketing expect some similar fate.
In PnP respec'ing isn't unheard of but it's frowned upon. Often DM's will send players on personal journeys to be able to make the changes they wish to make.
In MMO's permanent consequences don't work for obvious reasons. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences and everything should be forgiven around every corner. That's why players complain many of the storylines are linear. D&D is all about choices...and consequences for those choices.
I concede a lot for the sake of the MMO crowd. I conceded a lot on respec's.
Don't underestimate how deeply it cuts us. We're being rather respectful about it.
You call me a purist. If I was I woudn't be willing to have respecs at all.
I make concessions. You make concessions. That's how compromising works. To me $5 is actually leaning to your side of the fence. You might not be a huge fan of that but I'm not a huge fan of it being $5 myself.
I'm telling you the other side of the fence.
I respect the fact this is an MMO. Please respect the fact this is a D&D game. Claiming one is better than the other won't go anywhere.
Concede your point with regard to compromise. Still, I don't agree with it from a growth perspective. I personally don't care about the prices. I bought two heroes packs, one for myself and one for my wife and then bought a guardian pack for myself on the sly /cough /whistles innocently. I also dropped money on zen. I'll pay the $5 for a respec if I need a token. It doesn't mean I agree with the current system as I see it limiting with regard to building a larger community of other real people to play with. I'd rather not have to depend on my companion or be limited to a certain time of day to play with my buddies in order to have some interaction with other real people. If the Ztore isn't looked at very closely our playbase will become smaller than it need be once the dust settles, dedicated and hardcore yes, but smaller than it really should be. This is overall less income for the game and then less improvements to our gameplay experience.
Have you played 4th Ed D&D, the ruleset that this is based heavily on? I ask because you can respec in D&D 4th, at every level you are allowed to swap a feat, power, skill you want to change. It is called retraining, and is straight up legal by the core rules. Your premise that respeccing then is not what you think of as D&D stems from you not apparently knowing about the 4th Ed ruleset.
That is not really a respec but limited swap of powers.
That is so in order to make the spell/power slots meaningful to you. Just like sorcerer in NWN2 used to get to swap out a few spells when they levelled to kep the spell slots relevant.
Respec like they do in the game is a whole another beast.
In fact, being able to freely swap out your powers is key to the Neverwinter experience. In Neverwinter, versatility is not about re-speccing for every circumstance. Versatility is about choices and sacrifice. You can choose to go with a few core powers at Rank 3 and be best in a limited set of circumstances. Or, you can sacrifice Rank 3 in exchange for more versatility by learning more powers at Rank 1 or 2. Heck, even if you bring all 7 of those powers to Rank 3, that's only 21 points. The other 39 points are for class features and extra powers to swap to for your different builds.
Finding your preferences and learning the powers will take some experimentation, but not necessarily any respecs. In the current point buy system, you are required to have bought every power and class feature at Rank 2 by the time you reach level 30. Aside from the order in which you learn them, there are no power choices to make until after that point. By level 30, you will have a good idea of which of the Heroic Tier powers you want to Rank up to 3. It will most likely not be all of them. That leaves plenty of points for you to experiment with 1 Rank at a time in the Paragon Tier powers. You will have so many more powers than slots to put them in that having a power or two sit unused at Rank 1 will be irrelevant.
If you really want to get rid of that 1 Rank in a power you dislike, or want to move around some points then you will need a respec. But, there is no reason for respecs to be necessary as often as some people have stated. If they give us 1 at level 60 that will probably be enough for most people. And by level 60 you will probably be able to sell a handful of blue or purple drops on the AH to make enough AD to buy 500 ZEN.
Lastly, Cryptic has an excellent track record of giving out free respecs whenever changes are made. If they nerf you or add a new option then they will give you a respec token.
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