Pay to Progress or not?

deathvids

The astral diamonds. What do you think about the cost of respec'ing, the cost of changing crystals out of the gear and keeping in mind that some instances will have different mechanics? How much of the 2mill astral diamonds (Hero Pack) will be used on top teir items? Is this the kind of game where a player can invest the 200 dollars for the founders pack and then play the game at the cutting edge of progression without investing a ton of real life money?

How will the cost of respecting effect players that wish to PvE and PvP? How will the cost of respecting effect players that want to use specific specs for specific dungeons? How will the cost of changing runes out effect players that change runes for different dungeons or for pvp? Are players forced to spend real life money in order to revive inside of a dungeon?

First paragraph gives the over all question I have. The second paragraph breaks down a few of my concerns but not all.

Any assistance with these questions would be greatly appreciated.

imivo

For a discussion on the respec issue, see this thread. It covers the pros and cons, and what people think about it, fairly extensively.

You make references to needing to spend a ton of real life money to progress. What's this based on? The only stuff in the cash store that is not cosmetic or irrelevant are bag space, the respec tokens and additional character slots. You can earn Astral Diamonds in the game and then even exchange them (in the game-provided exchange place) for Zen, the cash store currency. This way, even the cash-only items are available to players without them having to pay real money.

ADs are used for the auction house, so yes, the 2M may buy gear, but that gear comes from players. So, if you never pay, but find an attractive, desirable item, you can sell it to someone for ADs and then again exchange them for Zen. Free players have access to all content, all zones, even to all future classes. You can attain max level without ever paying. There are no +10 Power Weapons in the cash store while the game only drops +5 Power Weapons.

It's not pay-to-win by my definition of the term. Not even close to it, really. As for my 2M, I don't plan on spending them on gear. Or at all. I think their Zen value will increase after a few weeks, since while in the beginning the demand is probably high, the supply will also be high.

Do keep in mind that while this IS a free game, it still costs money to develop and run. So supportive players will have advantages when it comes to convenience aspects (mostly, they will have it sooner). Complaining about this would miss the point of this being a business. It's not a Christmas gift, it's an alternate business model where you don't have to pay $60 upfront or pay a monthly fee.

ticladesign

I would have preferred a pay upfront, as some mmo's employ business models (Gambling) that either are illigal for the targeted age group or will be now gouverments are looking into some Free to play business models for legal reasons.

But that's just me I'm used to pay for a game and then not be bothered unless it's a yearly Expansion pack like NWN2 did.

deathvids

imivo wrote: »

For a discussion on the respec issue, see this thread. It covers the pros and cons, and what people think about it, fairly extensively.

You make references to needing to spend a ton of real life money to progress. What's this based on? The only stuff in the cash store that is not cosmetic or irrelevant are bag space, the respec tokens and additional character slots. You can earn Astral Diamonds in the game and then even exchange them (in the game-provided exchange place) for Zen, the cash store currency. This way, even the cash-only items are available to players without them having to pay real money.

ADs are used for the auction house, so yes, the 2M may buy gear, but that gear comes from players. So, if you never pay, but find an attractive, desirable item, you can sell it to someone for ADs and then again exchange them for Zen. Free players have access to all content, all zones, even to all future classes. You can attain max level without ever paying. There are no +10 Power Weapons in the cash store while the game only drops +5 Power Weapons.

It's not pay-to-win by my definition of the term. Not even close to it, really. As for my 2M, I don't plan on spending them on gear. Or at all. I think their Zen value will increase after a few weeks, since while in the beginning the demand is probably high, the supply will also be high.

Do keep in mind that while this IS a free game, it still costs money to develop and run. So supportive players will have advantages when it comes to convenience aspects (mostly, they will have it sooner). Complaining about this would miss the point of this being a business. It's not a Christmas gift, it's an alternate business model where you don't have to pay $60 upfront or pay a monthly fee.

Thanks the thread you linked has many opinions and comments that I can get plenty of info from.

The "reference" I made was a question not a statement. I was looking for a yes or no response, with possibly some extra insight on the topic. It was based mostly on the cost of respec'ing for different dungeons or pvp on a daily basis at max lvl 60.

licourtrix1

Respec'ing for different dungeons or pvp on a daily basis at max lvl 60 isn't needed unless you absolutely MUST min/max every aspect of the game. As it stands right now, there are no "must have skills or class to win this fight" in the game, and hopefully never will be.

imivo

deathvids wrote: »

The "reference" I made was a question not a statement. I was looking for a yes or no response, with possibly some extra insight on the topic. It was based mostly on the cost of respec'ing for different dungeons or pvp on a daily basis at max lvl 60.

One thing to consider is that you don't use all the skills you have spent points on in every setting. You chose what you use and you can change that without actually respeccing. The respec token is pretty much my only concern with the game, so I won't advocate or defend it (I think respeccing should be free, gold-based or require a quest chain), but it's important to not think too much in WoW terms when it comes to skills and respeccing.

But yes, it's a concern, though mine's more about finding a build I like. As I mentioned in the other thread, I'd prefer to buy a cool looking mount for $50 than ten 10 respecs. The former would make me happy, the latter is just a consumable that doesn't really make you feel you got something. I consider respeccing as much of a basic feature in a modern MMORPG as I do whispers/tells. I can appreciate the other side of the argument, though, I just don't share it. (The video linked in the first post of the other thread pretty much sums up my opinion too -- including what he says at the end about the possible alternate ways of looking at it.)

leomutreta

I plan to have a char for pve and another for pvp. So I can focus on the 2 activities without the need for respecs.

jirodyne

deathvids wrote: »

The astral diamonds. What do you think about the cost of respec'ing, the cost of changing crystals out of the gear and keeping in mind that some instances will have different mechanics? How much of the 2mill astral diamonds (Hero Pack) will be used on top teir items? Is this the kind of game where a player can invest the 200 dollars for the founders pack and then play the game at the cutting edge of progression without investing a ton of real life money?

How will the cost of respecting effect players that wish to PvE and PvP? How will the cost of respecting effect players that want to use specific specs for specific dungeons? How will the cost of changing runes out effect players that change runes for different dungeons or for pvp? Are players forced to spend real life money in order to revive inside of a dungeon?

First paragraph gives the over all question I have. The second paragraph breaks down a few of my concerns but not all.

Any assistance with these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Everything would be fine with the AD really, except for 1 tiny little thing that screws it up when you really come down to it. It's the limit that you can refine a day. Farming the max AD a day, you have to do it, everyday, none stop, without buying anything else for over half a year, just to buy the better items. I get to start with 2mill AD, I am probably set for my main character. The other Free noobie people? I pity them. It will be months before they can do anything, let alone farm enough extra AD for the exchange system for Zen. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if it never hits that mark. People will rush to max level, find the dungeons too darn boring at end game with nothing to do, then leave the game.

With the limit in place, the only true free people that will be getting anything, is if they stick around for many months on that one character. With people going to be hitting max level in under 3-4 days in the beginning. It's a grind. A very dull, unrewarding horrible grind.

It's my belief all the problems people have with AD, could simply be solves by either not having Rough AD at all, everything going straight to AD, or you having no limit to Refining. Either works

berserkerkitten8

The one thing about the not so "micro" payments that worries me more than anything is the keys you can buy in the zen store. This is what ultimately drove me away from STO, when every second enemy started dropping lockboxes and a need/greed loot prompt would pop up every single time. There was an incredibly tiny chance to obtain unique ships from said lockboxes, the easiest way to obtain keys was by cash (unless you had millions of energy credits) and whenever a player got lucky and looted one of the rare, sought-after ships, everyone on the entire server would get an onscreen message. "Player X looted cruiser Y from a lockbox!"

I don't like having to spend five bucks on respecs, because I like to experiment with my class and their different abilities as I reach the level cap in order to figure out which spec suits my personal playstyle. I don't think this should be hindered by a payment barrier, but that has been discussed to death elsewhere.

Personally, I'm no huge fan of $40.00 mounts, either. Yes, they just look cool, you can obtain mounts without ever spending a penny, this is all just for the sake of convenience, but to me 40 Dollars is a lot of money and I don't remember any other F2P game where a pony would be anywhere near that price range. Do I suffer an unfair disadvantage if I choose not to buy a mount with cash? Nah. It might take me a while to farm or grind for it or I might have to settle for a boring horse or the armored spider, but the only thing that might suffer is my personal feelgood-factor. Besides, the only thing we have to go by right now is closed beta shop pricing - nothing is set in stone.

But the keys trouble me. If locked chests on NWO work like those on GW2, I don't mind. They contain random temporary boosters, dyes, cosmetic pets, banking and auction NPCs, items for fun and convenience, nothing more. But if NWO ends up putting unique armor sets or otherwise unobtainable items in lockboxes and spams me with ingame messages: "Bob has looted Epic Flame Armor of Awesomeness from Random Lockbox", then I'm out. :eek:

jirodyne

berserkerkitten8 wrote: »

Personally, I'm no huge fan of $40.00 mounts, either. Yes, they just look cool, you can obtain mounts without ever spending a penny, this is all just for the sake of convenience, but to me 40 Dollars is a lot of money and I don't remember any other F2P game where a pony would be anywhere near that price range.

I would like to simply point out that it would take you 84 days farming max AD every singe day, and unable to buy anything else, to get enough AD to get that mount. As long as someone is trading $40 worth of zen for the AD too. Worth it right?!

deathvids

I appreciate all the feed back the community is providing.

I have a few worries but not enough to prevent me from purchasing a Hero's pack in support of NW's future.

Feel free to continue posting your comments or concerns.

berserkerkitten8

jirodyne wrote: »

I would like to simply point out that it would take you 84 days farming max AD every singe day, and unable to buy anything else, to get enough AD to get that mount. As long as someone is trading $40 worth of zen for the AD too. Worth it right?!

Maybe I'm naive, but I still hope they will fix this after the 25th. Like I said, right now all we have to go by is closed beta prices. If I can get a decent mount with gold, through quests or by any means of regular play, I won't mind the optional 40 bucks mounts that much. If the only alternative to spending 40 Dollars will be an 84 days grind fest or using a boring slow mount, it's not okay.

Still, I think it's probably a good idea to wait and see for now. If users feel that they're getting ripped off or that they can't get what they want without paying huge amounts of cash, they'll leave and play something else. I'm sure the guys at PWE are aware of that and I hope they have the common sense to act accordingly. Ahem... we'll see.

jirodyne

berserkerkitten8 wrote: »

Still, I think it's probably a good idea to wait and see for now. If users feel that they're getting ripped off or that they can't get what they want without paying huge amounts of cash, they'll leave and play something else. I'm sure the guys at PWE are aware of that and I hope they have the common sense to act accordingly. Ahem... we'll see.

We can hope...

But both companies have other games, games that have been around longer and making more money. This is just another chance to grab more money from players. So if it fails in under a year from lack of players, what does it matter to them? Probably with all the founder packs sold, they probably already made back most of the money spent paying the people to make the game. They'll just move on to another game.

We will just have to see in 2-3 weeks how the normal free players feel about it.

kotli

jirodyne wrote: »

I would like to simply point out that it would take you 84 days farming max AD every singe day, and unable to buy anything else, to get enough AD to get that mount. As long as someone is trading $40 worth of zen for the AD too. Worth it right?!

Correction it takes 84 days of AD farming to get it if you getting the Character cap of AD/day and the Diamond:Zen ratio is 500:1.
If the Ratio is 50:1 it take 9 days.

Anyway I done the math based on the ingame price of up ranking mounts it cost more to upgrade a basic ingame mount using AD that selling it for Zen. In fact it cost so much to upgrade a mount from basic to rank 3 in game as of BW4 that you can buy the most costly mount and companion from the Zen store and still have some Zen left over, this is at the worse conversion ratio of 500:1.

warpet

it is not pay to progress it is play or pay to progress but only if u wont to have all the best stuff, if u dont u can easy play just few hours a day and have fun

silvergryph

kotli wrote: »

Correction it takes 84 days of AD farming to get it if you getting the Character cap of AD/day and the Diamond:Zen ratio is 500:1.
If the Ratio is 50:1 it take 9 days.

And this is with only one character. The ZEN you buy on the exchange is account based so alts can be used to farm as well. Even if it's just log one in and Invoke every hour. I would also like to point out that it ignores what will be the primary source of AD for higher level characters: the Auction House. I will be making way more than 24k AD per day on the Auction House.

berserkerkitten8

silvergryph wrote: »

And this is with only one character. The ZEN you buy on the exchange is account based so alts can be used to farm as well. Even if it's just log one in and Invoke every hour. I would also like to point out that it ignores what will be the primary source of AD for higher level characters: the Auction House. I will be making way more than 24k AD per day on the Auction House.

So, provided I find enough stuff to put up for sale and people buy it all, there is no limit to the amount of AD I can make each day by using the auction house? And I can instantly trade these diamonds for Zen if I want to?

silvergryph

berserkerkitten8 wrote: »

So, provided I find enough stuff to put up for sale and people buy it all, there is no limit to the amount of AD I can make each day by using the auction house? And I can instantly trade these diamonds for Zen if I want to?

Yes. And these are already refined AD.

berserkerkitten8

silvergryph wrote: »

Yes. And these are already refined AD.

That is really, really awesome. Thanks for taking the time to point that out.

dcoy1

warpet wrote: »

it is not pay to progress it is play or pay to progress but only if u wont to have all the best stuff, if u dont u can easy play just few hours a day and have fun

You just said "its not pay to progress" , then in the next sentence said it was. Are you a politician??

hopeless2

berserkerkitten8 wrote: »

So, provided I find enough stuff to put up for sale and people buy it all, there is no limit to the amount of AD I can make each day by using the auction house? And I can instantly trade these diamonds for Zen if I want to?

Yes, playing the auction will probably be the best way to make AD and not by farming it.

jetah

dcoy1 wrote: »

You just said "its not pay to progress" , then in the next sentence said it was. Are you a politician??

You can play the whole game without spending a penny. You can get free zen via the offers (link in my sig).

As a poster above stated it's better to sell AD then to use it to upgrade that 2g mount to Rank 3.

Rough Astral Diamonds -> Astral Diamonds is limited to 24k per day per characters.
Astral Diamonds is unlimited via the AH as long as people are refining.
You'll refine all your rAD every time you level.
Free AD from events like Skirmishes and others (these are Event based and may happen limited times a day).

dcoy1

jetah wrote: »

You can play the whole game without spending a penny. You can get free zen via the offers (link in my sig).

As a poster above stated it's better to sell AD then to use it to upgrade that 2g mount to Rank 3.

Rough Astral Diamonds -> Astral Diamonds is limited to 24k per day per characters.
Astral Diamonds is unlimited via the AH as long as people are refining.
You'll refine all your rAD every time you level.
Free AD from events like Skirmishes and others (these are Event based and may happen limited times a day).

Thank you for the info. But does it in any way change that the poster I quoted contradicted himself? Which is all I was commenting on. Once again people with packs tripping over themselves to "prove" their not paying to gain an edge, lol.

jetah

dcoy1 wrote: »

Thank you for the info. But does it in any way change that the poster I quoted contradicted himself? Which is all I was commenting on. Once again people with packs tripping over themselves to "prove" their not paying to gain an edge, lol.

pay to progress would mean that you get the classic form of the game for free. then you pay for new locations/class/race/etc. an example would be WoW offers a free demo for characters to advance from 1 to 20. after 20 you must pay to progress further. This is a long stretch, i know, but it's the best example I can make.

I feel my hero and guardian packs give the advantage of not having to way 6 months to get a rank 3 mount. I dont have to wait another x months to get a rank 4* companion (i'm talking about a purple companion here, but nothing official has been stated about what quality the companion from the founders' pack are).








* I'm assuming that Ranks will be 1-Common, 2-Uncommon, 3-Rare, 4-Epic.

colhatick

Technically, having to buy a new expansion is paying to progress.

dcoy1

Still off topic lol. I didn't say anywhere in this thread the game was pay to progress man. But your anxiousness to argue the point is still amusing to me ).

warpet

dcoy1 wrote: »

You just said "its not pay to progress" , then in the next sentence said it was. Are you a politician??

:O never said u have to pay ,and whats wrong whit politicians not like they lie and steel?:rolleyes:

oreoz2573

jirodyne wrote: »

I would like to simply point out that it would take you 84 days farming max AD every singe day, and unable to buy anything else, to get enough AD to get that mount. As long as someone is trading $40 worth of zen for the AD too. Worth it right?!

uh, actually yes.

Cuz you save 40.00. Even if it does take you longer cuz you're spending AD on other things the answer is still yes.

Saving a chunk of money like that will always be worth it.

krafen

Before you get too excited about making bundles of AD on the auction house, keep in mind that somebody needs to be farming all those AD. Initially, there will be a surplus of AD due to the founder packs. As those are spent, it will increasingly be just farmed AD that are available.

Also, based on what we saw in BW4, reaching the 24K daily cap will be difficult at best. There were a few daily quests that awarded several thousand total, if you did them all. Invoking gave maybe a few hundred, if you got any at all. Leadership can provide a little. They may add a few more sources for launch, but I suspect it may be a while before 24K/day is really feasible.

revengeance77

This entire post is pointless for the following reasons:
1. Guildwars 2 is a Buy to play, 0 monthly charge game. They have the EXACT same micro transaction in game store setup.
2. Players are able to buy astral gems with in game currency. Astral Gems are used to purchase in game store items, and Auction house items.
3. While people would be able to buy plenty of in game perks/convenience items, you can't buy end game gear, or pvp gear. Yeah you can buy intro tier gear, but if you want the sweet top tier gear, you have to earn it.
4. Most of the people I know that purchased the Hero of the North pack (like me) just wanted access to FOUNDRY to make content as soon as possible. OR they are content progressive players that are in a progressive raid guild looking to clear content first.
5. The only thing I can use to early cap with Astral gems is my crafting (by choosing instant complete craft) for a boat load of astral gems. At the higher tiers it would be so much that you best have a fortune to click away to top tier crafting.
6. Even with #5 being possible, the game still uses the SWTOR gathering/crafting system, so ANYONE can craft and gather easily. No one should be out farming mats, because all you have to do is keep your gatherers/crafters on cooldown. SUPER easy mode.

dcoy1

revengeance77 wrote: »

This entire post is pointless for the following reasons:
1. Guildwars 2 is a Buy to play, 0 monthly charge game. They have the EXACT same micro transaction in game store setup.
2. Players are able to buy astral gems with in game currency. Astral Gems are used to purchase in game store items, and Auction house items.
3. While people would be able to buy plenty of in game perks/convenience items, you can't buy end game gear, or pvp gear. Yeah you can buy intro tier gear, but if you want the sweet top tier gear, you have to earn it.
4. Most of the people I know that purchased the Hero of the North pack (like me) just wanted access to FOUNDRY to make content as soon as possible. OR they are content progressive players that are in a progressive raid guild looking to clear content first.
5. The only thing I can use to early cap with Astral gems is my crafting (by choosing instant complete craft) for a boat load of astral gems. At the higher tiers it would be so much that you best have a fortune to click away to top tier crafting.
6. Even with #5 being possible, the game still uses the SWTOR gathering/crafting system, so ANYONE can craft and gather easily. No one should be out farming mats, because all you have to do is keep your gatherers/crafters on cooldown. SUPER easy mode.

Good post. I would love to see a link to a dev post or anything with more info on end game gear being something you have to earn by completing content. You also mentioned people looking to clear raid content first. Some more info on that would be awesome.