I wanted to clarify what you meant with this statement. Unless I misunderstood you, it sounds like you're saying that putting any points in Conqueror means you have to keep putting points in Conqueror, but that's not the case.
The paragon feat trees are not exclusive. That is, if you put points in Conqueror, you can still put points in Tactician or Protector. They're just grouped by theme, and not a commitment to anything. You'll get your final paragon feat point at level 60, and at that point you'll have to pick which capstone feat you want, but the rest of them can be anywhere.
I hear you. I shouldn't type things at 4:30pm on 26 hours of no sleep, lol. There's a lot of black and white in those posts, and a lot of "or" when there doesn't need to be. I get that you can mix and match points, in theory. However, both of those posts were in direct response to this:
When the game gets released I will probably do a guardian fighter with conqueror feats, I will focus on having 18 str at the start and 16 constitution.
Gonna roll a human just because of personal choice so I can customize him a little more with a few heroic feats to boost his strength potential and overall damage and a bit more tankyness.
The reasoning behind this build is not to be a perfect a tank, but a character that if he needs to intimidate an enemy and kill the enemy as fast as possible to save a cleric or a caster.
I don't see the game supporting it. You're reading what I wrote from start to finish, because that's how I wrote it. Let me try it again, starting at the end problem and working backwards (but much more brief): once you decide you want to be a conqueror, who doesn't tank so much as DPS, and you decide upon the conqueror capstone ability to buff your damage done, that does very bad things to your ability to select feats, your ability to select powers, and because of the lack of synergy forces you into certain "choices" while simultaneously causing you to burn feat points in sub-standard skills for your build / intended play style.
Before the paragon trees, I think I did a good job of laying out the problems you'd have, and where you're going to waste points. Once you get to the paragon trees, I overly simplified the choices in order to demonstrate that they are really built really tight around damage mitigation, blocking, and a defensive play style. It's clear, based on the trees, that's how the class was "intended" to be played.
The Protector tree is geared towards defense, which his stated play style is not. The Tactician tree forces you into talents that you might not be using in a higher-DPS role. And some of the other points you could spend in those two trees don't build towards a DPS GF. Here are the benefits of Protector: more defense, more avoidance, more healing on one of our abilities, 5 AC, improved block gauge, more mitigation of defensive talents, higher damage while blocking, or a buff to dailies. Some of those *could* be taken, some of those are absolutely worthless. Again, based on wanting to be a conqueror, and because of the nature of the capstone. The Tactician tree isn't much better, will spare everybody the run down.
If you're looking to be "not a perfect tank" that works by "killing the biggest threat quickly," which SHOULD BE A VIABLE WAY TO PLAY, most of your choices are going to be in the conqueror tree... and they aren't strong. And if you go that route, taking anything that increases your damage along the way, it absolutely railroads you into a particular power layout. Which effectively removes any choice you would have. By virtue of "going conqueror," because of the nature of the capstone and because you need to take damage increasing feats, you are going to waste points all over the place or end up with feats that don't synchronize well with your intended play style at all.
What about using the Temporary HP DPS build down the conqueror line? Gearing yourself out with items that increase your max HP, which in turn boost your temporary HP which in turn boost your DPS. I imagined that being quite viable, but I would have to see the trees again. I should have ss'd them during the last beta weekend.
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lemmingprojectMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited March 2013
just bookmarked ur site.... only bin playing for the beta weekend that just ended.... and loved the fighter..... cw was ok too. but. ya. there is something speciel with the guardian fighter.
I understand now, some of the conqueror feats are just not worth it and put you at constant danger so you can make the most out of them, perhaps the best thing I can do is just spend the heroic feats to get an increase in my strength effectiveness and just focus on going protector feats.
Strength Focus 3/3 Toughness 2/3
Armor Specialization 3/3 Distracting Shield 2/5
Powerful Attack 5/5
Weapon Mastery 3/3 Ubiquitous Shield 2/5
I could spend the remaining heroic feats I have from human on either distracting shield or something else.
I actually found myself in the beta initiating with lunge and using griffons wrath but I might start using enforced threat as well.
And for some odd reason half of my comment got eaten away, but basically I am thinking in just speccing fully into protector feats while getting the increased damage or decreased cooldowns on my encounter powers from the tactician tree.
If you want to play DPS conqueror, go for it. I'm hopeful that the fix to aggro makes it able to do the job. My concern is that they waste feat points, which makes them overall less efficient than a traditional tanking GF - and that's a shame.
We will see, I always liked the idea of playing offensive and blocking when I need to, having high strength provides me with the ability to block more and deal more damage, so I want to synergize heavily around it, hopefully they will make a few changes to the feats before the game gets released.
I think every class in the game should let you do what you want, and if you want to do it, it should work properly.
I understand now, some of the conqueror feats are just not worth it and put you at constant danger so you can make the most out of them, perhaps the best thing I can do is just spend the heroic feats to get an increase in my strength effectiveness and just focus on going protector feats.
Strength Focus 3/3 Toughness 2/3
Armor Specialization 3/3 Distracting Shield 2/5
Powerful Attack 5/5
Weapon Mastery 3/3 Ubiquitous Shield 2/5
I could spend the remaining heroic feats I have from human on either distracting shield or something else.
I actually found myself in the beta initiating with lunge and using griffons wrath but I might start using enforced threat as well.
Not quite sure why you would want to use enforced threat in pvp. I did exactly what you did with the three succesive blows of griffons and then hit with an anvil. It was very effective for burst. I usually took a target down to half hp with that burst. I then blocked and waited till lunge was up again with 1 griffon stack and 1 anvil to burst again to take another 1/4hp down on the target. They either ran at that point or used a potion. If they ran I used my Daily to improve my dps and become immune to CC to finish them off.
In that case, I'm still not sure why you would use the aoe taunt. I almost feel like a single target dps skill or aoe skill would be more worth while since the only time I typically aoe taunted was on trash mobs. If you are going for dps in your pve build, I'd be sure to dish out as much of it as I could.
Nice logo design, I'll find a way to work it in and give you credit. I'm putting a halt to my own theorycrafting for a bit, seeing what version of things we get in the next playable version of the game. That said, in response to the person about running AoE taunt - it does AoE damage, and forces things to attack you for 6 seconds. With the cleric aggro broken in BW3 and what seemed like a complete inability to hold threat with just DPS, it almost seemed mandatory for me...
I am going to be forced to go for protector feats, I don't want to be sub par guardian fighter
Don't give up on it just because of what I put out there. 1. They can and probably will tidy up the skill trees at some point. 2. It's your play style - as long as you live and hold aggro nobody can really say much.
Just finished reading the thread and both your Character Creation and Beginner's Tanking guides. Love it all! Solid theory, clear and concise, and fun to read!
@bjac9: Don't get demoralized, it's still in Beta so nothing is set in stone.
@tibberton1: I think it might be a good idea to dedicate an article -- or at least a sizable portion of one -- to the proper use of the Block mechanic. I can't think of a single MMO that had a mechanic quite like it, and I admit I struggled to grasp it's full potential during what little time I played GF in BW3.
I've always played tanks in MMO's and I certainly intend to do so again in Neverwinter, so I'll be keeping up with your site. Can't wait to see more!
Nice logo design, I'll find a way to work it in and give you credit. I'm putting a halt to my own theorycrafting for a bit, seeing what version of things we get in the next playable version of the game. That said, in response to the person about running AoE taunt - it does AoE damage, and forces things to attack you for 6 seconds. With the cleric aggro broken in BW3 and what seemed like a complete inability to hold threat with just DPS, it almost seemed mandatory for me...
I completely understand that the skill did aoe damage and forced the mobs to attack you. But if you want more bang for your buck Cleave was more effective and no real CD. I was getting off 2-3 cleaves in the time it took for 1 aoe taunt and usually the mobs were dead after that brief time. Thus negating any need to hold aggro.
I completely understand that the skill did aoe damage and forced the mobs to attack you. But if you want more bang for your buck Cleave was more effective and no real CD. I was getting off 2-3 cleaves in the time it took for 1 aoe taunt and usually the mobs were dead after that brief time. Thus negating any need to hold aggro.
On low level trash mobs that may be, and that's assuming they're all bunched up in front of you and not scattered or chasing the Cleric, but especially in dungeon runs most enemies wont go down to a few Cleaves from a Guardian. Enforced Threat is a very powerful ability that wasn't utilized nearly enough in BW3 in my experience. And it even does decent damage that you don't have to aim. I once scored 2 kills with it in the same PvP match!
Well...the only time my friends and I played the game was BW3 and we all made it to an avg of lvl 34. We did all the instances up to and including the Dragon one in the end and cleared the dungeon in our first attempt. Maybe we just had a better understanding on how to control the aggro and mobs but trash grps through the instance gave us no issues. They didn't even really need me for the trash in the dungeon. I actually ran with the aoe taunt for half the dungeon before I gave up. The bonuses for it's use weren't anything for me to consider while running my dps build. I actually held aggro the best on single targets which is probably why we were so successful in the dungeons.
As for using the aoe taunt in pvp...hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Why would use a taunt skill in pvp when it did not force the person to attack you. It only added a mark for a few seconds on the target and did 250 dmg. That is a complete waste of an encounter skill in pvp. The GF in pvp is basically a TR without the huge damage numbers and better survivability. However, GF put out a sustainable single target dps and made most ppl think twice when fighting me 1v1 and 2v1.
As for using the aoe taunt in pvp...hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Why would use a taunt skill in pvp when it did not force the person to attack you. It only added a mark for a few seconds on the target and did 250 dmg. That is a complete waste of an encounter skill in pvp. The GF in pvp is basically a TR without the huge damage numbers and better survivability. However, GF put out a sustainable single target dps and made most ppl think twice when fighting me 1v1 and 2v1.
Soooo gliding right past the part where I find this offensive...
I had literally JUST reached the level where you're allowed into PvP, so I didn't have any other powers to replace it with, or if I did I didn't realize and frankly didn't much care. It worked well enough at that stage of the game, and I won't bother defending it.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I have a question, does the healing done from power effect temporary hit points?
From my experience, no. The temporary hit points were basically an invisible shield. However if I was healed when I had the temporary HP buff, the temporary hp buff was added to the end of my new hp bar.
Edit- I have to ask, can I use your quote on the "About Me" dance comment, with your name as the quoted? I love that explanation ! It's perfect!
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
What is the primary way, other than walking, to get out of red areas? I see threaten rush is a charge, does that have a cooldown or move the fighter very far?
I know as a GWF, I have the class power sprint and a charge. Just curious how the GF deals with it. I'm wanting to try both as a tank.
What is the primary way, other than walking, to get out of red areas? I see threaten rush is a charge, does that have a cooldown or move the fighter very far?
I know as a GWF, I have the class power sprint and a charge. Just curious how the GF deals with it. I'm wanting to try both as a tank.
Unless you can charge to another mob to get out of it, walking is the best way. Some of the red area attacks can be blocked, some can't.
Well...the only time my friends and I played the game was BW3 and we all made it to an avg of lvl 34. We did all the instances up to and including the Dragon one in the end and cleared the dungeon in our first attempt. Maybe we just had a better understanding on how to control the aggro and mobs but trash grps through the instance gave us no issues. They didn't even really need me for the trash in the dungeon. I actually ran with the aoe taunt for half the dungeon before I gave up. The bonuses for it's use weren't anything for me to consider while running my dps build. I actually held aggro the best on single targets which is probably why we were so successful in the dungeons.
As for using the aoe taunt in pvp...hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Why would use a taunt skill in pvp when it did not force the person to attack you. It only added a mark for a few seconds on the target and did 250 dmg. That is a complete waste of an encounter skill in pvp. The GF in pvp is basically a TR without the huge damage numbers and better survivability. However, GF put out a sustainable single target dps and made most ppl think twice when fighting me 1v1 and 2v1.
My system (I laid it out in another thread) was charge the biggest threat target, AoE taunt once for damage and 6 seconds of control, shield up and stab the target I wanted to hold threat on. Usually, before the 6 seconds was up, the smaller garbage was well in hand. Also, sitting on the AoE taunt to burn it when a boss dumps a bunch of adds worked well for me, in keeping them off the healer. To each their own.
And no, once you have other options, you wouldn't want an AoE taunt on your bar for PvP. Your method of addressing that, however, was pretty rude and largely unnecessary.
Im not quite sure how it was rude...all I did was laugh at what the person was doing in pvp and then ask a rhetorical question. Also the aoe taunt in pve...well if I am tanking a boss pulling all the adds just drops my shield bar faster and pulls the adds so they circle up around me forcing me to take more damage and then the cleric in the party has to spam heals to keep me alive and therefor pulls additional aggro. What happens then is that the boss as well as the adds focus on the cleric and a party can wipe when that happens. Why not just let the adds go since like you said they were fairly simple to manage?
Comments
I hear you. I shouldn't type things at 4:30pm on 26 hours of no sleep, lol. There's a lot of black and white in those posts, and a lot of "or" when there doesn't need to be. I get that you can mix and match points, in theory. However, both of those posts were in direct response to this:
I don't see the game supporting it. You're reading what I wrote from start to finish, because that's how I wrote it. Let me try it again, starting at the end problem and working backwards (but much more brief): once you decide you want to be a conqueror, who doesn't tank so much as DPS, and you decide upon the conqueror capstone ability to buff your damage done, that does very bad things to your ability to select feats, your ability to select powers, and because of the lack of synergy forces you into certain "choices" while simultaneously causing you to burn feat points in sub-standard skills for your build / intended play style.
Before the paragon trees, I think I did a good job of laying out the problems you'd have, and where you're going to waste points. Once you get to the paragon trees, I overly simplified the choices in order to demonstrate that they are really built really tight around damage mitigation, blocking, and a defensive play style. It's clear, based on the trees, that's how the class was "intended" to be played.
The Protector tree is geared towards defense, which his stated play style is not. The Tactician tree forces you into talents that you might not be using in a higher-DPS role. And some of the other points you could spend in those two trees don't build towards a DPS GF. Here are the benefits of Protector: more defense, more avoidance, more healing on one of our abilities, 5 AC, improved block gauge, more mitigation of defensive talents, higher damage while blocking, or a buff to dailies. Some of those *could* be taken, some of those are absolutely worthless. Again, based on wanting to be a conqueror, and because of the nature of the capstone. The Tactician tree isn't much better, will spare everybody the run down.
If you're looking to be "not a perfect tank" that works by "killing the biggest threat quickly," which SHOULD BE A VIABLE WAY TO PLAY, most of your choices are going to be in the conqueror tree... and they aren't strong. And if you go that route, taking anything that increases your damage along the way, it absolutely railroads you into a particular power layout. Which effectively removes any choice you would have. By virtue of "going conqueror," because of the nature of the capstone and because you need to take damage increasing feats, you are going to waste points all over the place or end up with feats that don't synchronize well with your intended play style at all.
I hope that's more clear.
guardianfighter.com
Strength Focus 3/3 Toughness 2/3
Armor Specialization 3/3 Distracting Shield 2/5
Powerful Attack 5/5
Weapon Mastery 3/3 Ubiquitous Shield 2/5
I could spend the remaining heroic feats I have from human on either distracting shield or something else.
I actually found myself in the beta initiating with lunge and using griffons wrath but I might start using enforced threat as well.
And for some odd reason half of my comment got eaten away, but basically I am thinking in just speccing fully into protector feats while getting the increased damage or decreased cooldowns on my encounter powers from the tactician tree.
guardianfighter.com
I think every class in the game should let you do what you want, and if you want to do it, it should work properly.
Did this for you, you could try and put it on your page.
Not quite sure why you would want to use enforced threat in pvp. I did exactly what you did with the three succesive blows of griffons and then hit with an anvil. It was very effective for burst. I usually took a target down to half hp with that burst. I then blocked and waited till lunge was up again with 1 griffon stack and 1 anvil to burst again to take another 1/4hp down on the target. They either ran at that point or used a potion. If they ran I used my Daily to improve my dps and become immune to CC to finish them off.
guardianfighter.com
Don't give up on it just because of what I put out there. 1. They can and probably will tidy up the skill trees at some point. 2. It's your play style - as long as you live and hold aggro nobody can really say much.
guardianfighter.com
@bjac9: Don't get demoralized, it's still in Beta so nothing is set in stone.
@tibberton1: I think it might be a good idea to dedicate an article -- or at least a sizable portion of one -- to the proper use of the Block mechanic. I can't think of a single MMO that had a mechanic quite like it, and I admit I struggled to grasp it's full potential during what little time I played GF in BW3.
I've always played tanks in MMO's and I certainly intend to do so again in Neverwinter, so I'll be keeping up with your site. Can't wait to see more!
guardianfighter.com
I completely understand that the skill did aoe damage and forced the mobs to attack you. But if you want more bang for your buck Cleave was more effective and no real CD. I was getting off 2-3 cleaves in the time it took for 1 aoe taunt and usually the mobs were dead after that brief time. Thus negating any need to hold aggro.
On low level trash mobs that may be, and that's assuming they're all bunched up in front of you and not scattered or chasing the Cleric, but especially in dungeon runs most enemies wont go down to a few Cleaves from a Guardian. Enforced Threat is a very powerful ability that wasn't utilized nearly enough in BW3 in my experience. And it even does decent damage that you don't have to aim. I once scored 2 kills with it in the same PvP match!
As for using the aoe taunt in pvp...hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Why would use a taunt skill in pvp when it did not force the person to attack you. It only added a mark for a few seconds on the target and did 250 dmg. That is a complete waste of an encounter skill in pvp. The GF in pvp is basically a TR without the huge damage numbers and better survivability. However, GF put out a sustainable single target dps and made most ppl think twice when fighting me 1v1 and 2v1.
Soooo gliding right past the part where I find this offensive...
I had literally JUST reached the level where you're allowed into PvP, so I didn't have any other powers to replace it with, or if I did I didn't realize and frankly didn't much care. It worked well enough at that stage of the game, and I won't bother defending it.
Edit- I have to ask, can I use your quote on the "About Me" dance comment, with your name as the quoted? I love that explanation ! It's perfect!
I know as a GWF, I have the class power sprint and a charge. Just curious how the GF deals with it. I'm wanting to try both as a tank.
Responded on site. Responding here as well - go for it.
guardianfighter.com
Unless you can charge to another mob to get out of it, walking is the best way. Some of the red area attacks can be blocked, some can't.
guardianfighter.com
My system (I laid it out in another thread) was charge the biggest threat target, AoE taunt once for damage and 6 seconds of control, shield up and stab the target I wanted to hold threat on. Usually, before the 6 seconds was up, the smaller garbage was well in hand. Also, sitting on the AoE taunt to burn it when a boss dumps a bunch of adds worked well for me, in keeping them off the healer. To each their own.
And no, once you have other options, you wouldn't want an AoE taunt on your bar for PvP. Your method of addressing that, however, was pretty rude and largely unnecessary.
guardianfighter.com
Hopefully this is well cited/quoted
Edit: Well..for some reason I can't get it to show up -_-