Currently, slain party members ARE locked out of the room on the final bosses in dungeons, but not any of the mini-bosses leading up to that point.
Personally, I'd like to see a small gold penalty associated with dying, just so it has a bit of sting and people actually try not to die. But it's okay as it is, too.
I would be ok with a gold penalty if it was based on the gold your currently carrying (and we have banks for gold...I never bothered to check in the beta weekend). That even makes sense thematically to be honest, and it would only be a fairly small loss (affecting the gold you make over the course of a quest, but only that gold as long as you store it before hand.
Something like 10% of total gold per death in a quest....even if you died 10 times you'd still have some gold left heh...but not much.
Iv used in last beta old-gangam-style fast travel method: "die and spawn on spawn point".
Saved alot of time
Good to see it back in mmo, its so RPG-gangam-style, yeah!
With the death system in the beta weekend, I wondered why the devs didnt just let us recall/teleport to the campfires since death served the same purpose. I do think they should have some minor penalty or allow us to recall/teleport (since that is what we will do anyways).
Cheers!
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aesclealMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Great topic.
I'm all for the system how it is now, but what would be great is if we could opt for a wipe'or'win "Elite" option to a quest, where the stakes were higher and so were the rewards. Not that this is anything like "ahem" DDO, but in that game you pick your difficulty level prior to entering a quest. So you can pick Elite as an option and then there is a small difference in the quest, such as restrictions on rest shrine use, monster level/difficulty, and so on. If I'm right, in this game it is more akin to an automated difficulty slider... but it would be really nice if you were given an option to pick an extra hard, wipe/win difficulty. I'd like that option, for sure. Even if I rarely used it. It would be a really great test of your skill, and planning/strategy.
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drwarpeffectMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 71Arc User
edited February 2013
aescleal- I like your choose your difficulty choice a lot as at least a minimum. If there is no penalty for dying it breaks immersion for me as players often do just plain silly tactics in fights. If no penalty, what is there to stop them?
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aesclealMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
aescleal- I like your choose your difficulty choice a lot as at least a minimum. If there is no penalty for dying it breaks immersion for me as players often do just plain silly tactics in fights. If no penalty, what is there to stop them?
Thanks. I have not played the beta yet, so I can only go on what I've read thus far. If there is some sort of penalty (nothing will suit everybody), then I'll remain interested, even if it's on the light side. I just don't personally enjoy the game if coming back from death equals a button click and I'm back in it the fight. But, if quests as they are now do automatically slide up/down in difficulty depending on the # of players in the part and the level of the group, then perhaps there is more to it than we've seen so far in videos or from our current battery of testers.
That said, if Cryptic would allow for a difficulty selection by the party leader then it would be great to see a suggestion like the OP mentions, wipe'or'win, where you can't come back from death until the party is fully wiped, or the end boss is killed (all win requisites are fulfilled). Naturally, the rewards on such a difficulty selection would have to be pretty darn sweet!
And of course, my hope would be that this would be a selectable option such as "Elite" or "Epic" difficulty!
For me, I like the way NW currently does dying EXCEPT, I would like there to be some STORY element that explains why I am re-spawning. Maybe the deity I have chosen to follow "visits" me, scolds me or tells me how I'm needed in the world, and then returns me to life/health at a safe place. The story is more important to me than combat so that's what I would like to see in the game.
hehe , now there would be a interesting death penalty, ever time you die, which ever god (or that too hard angel or devil) you pray too comes in a little 30 secondish (maybe less) cut-scene and then you get the the camp fire. it be great the first few times, but after that you will want to avoid dying:) and the time it takes will stop zergging! (well mostly).
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I am not evil, I am just cursed.
even though I ment it for each encounter of mini-bosses and bosses. I would LOVE an option to have a win or wipe scenario for the entire dungeon.
Naturally not used for leveling. But a group of friends might want to test their might. If you die, you are locked out of the dungeon, but have the option of being in ghost-mode/observing.
Also, mini-bosses wipeORwin can be solved by a applying a circular barrier that works much like the end-boss doors. It'd be funny to see the poor teammember standing just outside the barrier, acting like a cheer-leader.
The question of difficulty though. Got any suggestions for "easy to manipulate" aspects that would increase difficulty.
Or would you be fine with increase mob dmg and health?
Wanre: As is (since we heard that bosses actually WHERE wipeorwin)
Sargtlin: 50% mob hp & dmg
Kla'athe: 50% mob hp & dmg Minibosses puts up a barrier disallowing respawn and rejoining the fight. Longer bleedout by 100%
Sarol'veldruk: 75% mob hp & dmg No respawns, no bleedout. If downed, you only get up again when revived.
Ul'saruk: 100% mob hp & dmg True wipe or win. If you die, you get locked out of the dungeon/spectator. Bleedout increased 100%
Explanation: Bleedout increased means longer time in bleedout mode. It is fairly short, and a longer time balances the penalites somewhat.
What do you think? Perhaps adding increased frequency of splashes with difficulty. Larger encounters instead of higher dmg and hp. a good mix of fronline and ranged mobs. thats all "easy to change" aspects I can think of beyond Dmg and Hp
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aesclealMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I would suggest that even in a win or wipe scenerio, you should still be able to resurrect your fallen team mates if you are able. So Clerics could rez fallen mates, or anybody with a rez scroll for that matter. But I'd rule out being able to release back to a binding point (campfire, town, quest entry).
Something I both like and dislike in DDO is how death happens. For the most it's okay, but when you die, you both drop a stone, so your team can pick it up and escape to a rest shrine, and also your team mates can see a ghostly translucent version of you still running about. It's great that you are bound to your rez stone, but that fact that you can still be seen is a PITA. Why? Well because you are visual clutter, just hanging around getting in the way. I can't count the number of times I've asked or been asked to move so a stone could be picked up, or somebody found themselves swinging at the ghost of a dead mate, when they should have been attacking a mob.
On the other hand, the system in WoW does a good job at "hiding" you from sight, as though you are truly in another dimension. In WoW it's a two way hide though. You can't see your dead mate, and he/she can't see you either. Even if you are still in the same place. So, I'd be very impressed if death in NWO meant that you are totally invisible to your team. But even better if the dead could still linger around watching how things unfold. Until you are actually raised or release... or in the case of win or wipe, stuck until your team wins or fails as a whole.
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silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
edited February 2013
Copying my comments from another thread on death penalty:
I'm not a fan of most death penalties. Dealing with them either sets you back in time or game currency and feels like losing time actually playing the game. This is not a good way to keep the interest of players. Especially players who can play for free.
I wouldn't mind them doing something like ramping up the rewards for Invoking based on how long you have spent in-game without dying. Something small that caps in a few hours but provides an extra incentive to survive. Carrots are always better game design than sticks.
I wouldn't mind them doing something like ramping up the rewards for Invoking based on how long you have spent in-game without dying. Something small that caps in a few hours but provides an extra incentive to survive. Carrots are always better game design than sticks.
I actually quite enjoy that idea. It's a nice simple incentive to stay alive. There will always be those of us who die often. And in a face paced game like Neverwinter, I'd expect that I'll die plenty of times during my learning curve. I'll just expect that. So penalizing me by taking my gold isn't going to be cool. I know this isn't shared by everyone on these forums, but on the whole, I'd much rather suffer a time penalty (having to release and run back to my corpse) than to give up my gold or items. In DDO your gear suffers damage and you have to pay to repair it. This isn't bad when money is plentiful, but when you are broke, or if you are a player who is always broke, that can be rough.
So ya, I like that carrot idea. It may even make me slow my game down some and think about what I'm doing.
Copying my comments from another thread on death penalty:
Copying my comments from the same other thread as Silvergryph copied his from:
I like the idea of a small stacking bonus that increases as you gain XP without dying. Something like a buff to gold find, or even magic find. I know they already have gold find buffs in the game, you can get them from praying at those shrines to Waukeen using religion skill. They even stack. So giving a small, stacking gold find buff for not dying would be a nice little incentive, but the loss of it would not be a big deal.
Or maybe even a little direct astral diamond reward for each X number of XP earned without dying.
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silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
ok, finally suggestions, instead of arguments about death-penalty in general. I am going to add peoples suggestions to the OP. This together with my current suggestion coupled with aescleals suggestion.
Edit, I re-read your suggestion.
The hardest difficulty I suggested would be Hard-core mode.
But ressurection would be possible in the second to hardest difficulty, since bleed-out never results in death. But releasing and respawning at a save-point is out.
difficulty level 1,2,3: Wanre, Sargtlin, Kla'athe, all allow respawn at savepoint. Only Kla'athe disallows rejoining the fight against a mini-boss.
So, what you are suggesting is actually covered in the Sarol'veldruk difficulty.
My 2 copper on this: if death has no consequence in Neverwinter then this game is going to be very kiddie-like lame. Because weak death penalties (i.e. simply running back to where you were) combined with the ease of the mobs means this game is going to be a cakewalk, blind button-masher where one can simply blindly hold down the left mouse button all the way to the final boss. Nothing more.
Having a death penalty, and mind you I'm not advocating for hardcore or perma-death mechanic, gives the game content a level of difficulty and requires players to have some level of skill at a minimum to be successful a said difficult content. In other words: a challenge.
I like the idea of your character being incapacitated in place until rezzed or the option to respawn at a savepoint. While waiting for a rez, the screen goes greyscale while the action still goes on but you cannot contribute to it as your character is kneeling or laying down. Once rezzed by another player you have full stats and normal health. But if you respawn, then you have say a 10min debuff for stats combined with increased incoming damage and have to run back to where you were - or something like that.
But these people advocating no death penalty or simply run back to where you were? Wow. Do you also only want enemies to only use fluffy feather pillows to attack your toon with and the game have rose petals laid at your feet for you to guide back to where you were?
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yellatrukMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited February 2013
If you're fighting a boss and your tank dies, you lose. Im sorry but I dont believe in second chances (within the same combat sequence)
But these people advocating no death penalty or simply run back to where you were? Wow. Do you also only want enemies to only use fluffy feather pillows to attack your toon with and the game have rose petals laid at your feet for you to guide back to where you were?
We're just noting that the trend has been to make "death" less and less punitive, that the old school arcade-mentality of "sorry do it all over again" is mercifully dying. Mercifully, because it was a crock, it was just a way for game designers to maximize their content, making it so you had to repeat it over and over again, until was perfected.
Otherwise known as the "slip another quarter in you sucker" design.
I think the game can be challenging without making you repeat entire instances when your tank dies. I also think the tank/heal/DPS model is growing super-tired too, but that's another topic for another time!
I also think, the market has spoken. Fans want massive amounts of content, endless tricks, traps and adventure, without a lot of "sorry go back and do it all over again" 80's style design.
I am not too impressed with people who think they have superior ePeens because they want uber-hardcore games. If you want NO to be more hardcore, self-impose penalties on yourself.
Some of us, believe it or not, have limited time and schedules. We have lives. Which means the idea of investing 11 to 13 hours in a session won't work for us. We have chores and responsibilities, even on weekends. So the few 2 to 3 hours we have, we don't need or want to be particular punitive. That doesn't mean we don't enjoy a good puzzle, or a challenging fight, or having to work as a team, we just don't need or want a game that think it is perfectly okay to smash their players into a pulp, the moment they twitch their left thumb instead of their right.
MMOs have far too much content and its players have far little time in comparison for that model to really work anymore.
If you insist its better, then impart those penalties on yourself. I wager you won't, because just like the rest of us, you'd much rather see what's beyond that next door, rather than repeat the one you already went through.
And I scoff, truly, truly scoff that somehow "hardcore" is superior, smarter or represents more skill. I've said it before, I'll say it again, bragging about your "skills" in a video game is akin to bragging about your "skills" in jerking. Sure, with a lot of practice, you get quite efficient, but it isn't really a skill and really you're just amusing yourself, so it's nothing to envy or admire.
But that harsh reality sends some gamers into a tizzy, because they were raised on "high score" gaming and damn it, their ePeens must be seen and admired. These are the same people who content PVP in MMOs involve "great skill". So again, sorry, but I kinda scoff.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Copying my comments from another thread on death penalty:
I'm not a fan of most death penalties. Dealing with them either sets you back in time or game currency and feels like losing time actually playing the game. This is not a good way to keep the interest of players. Especially players who can play for free.
I wouldn't mind them doing something like ramping up the rewards for Invoking based on how long you have spent in-game without dying. Something small that caps in a few hours but provides an extra incentive to survive. Carrots are always better game design than sticks.
But it is more fun to beat people with sticks than carrots. The carrots just break and cause no real pain. Now a good stick on the other hand......:rolleyes: Oh I mean......nevermind I agree with the ramping up the rewards thing too. That would be cool.
I am not too impressed with people who think they have superior ePeens because they want uber-hardcore games. If you want NO to be more hardcore, self-impose penalties on yourself.
Thanks for generalizing about everyone who likes a challenge in a game. I could generalize in a negative fashion about all people who want to face roll a game too. But it is not worth it and won't sink down to that level. Not everyone that wants a challenge wants it to be some grotesque penalty for death.
And I scoff, truly, truly scoff that somehow "hardcore" is superior, smarter or represents more skill. I've said it before, I'll say it again, bragging about your "skills" in a video game is akin to bragging about your "skills" in jerking. Sure, with a lot of practice, you get quite efficient, but it isn't really a skill and really you're just amusing yourself, so it's nothing to envy or admire.
So something that you get better at with a lot of practice is not a skill? Hmm ok. Just do me a favor and tell every artisen you meet that they don't have any skill. I mean they may have only spent years practicing and developing their skill to do what they do, but it is not skill. Just because it is a game doesn't mean that someone who excels at it doesn't have skill at it. Football, Basketball, Chess, Soccer, Hockey, and Poker, are all games too. Are people who are really good at them not have skill too? Oh I get it, it is not on a computer or a console so those things can be skills right?
From websters:
Definition of SKILL
1
obsolete : cause, reason
2
a : the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance
b : dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks
3
: a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability
Which one of those does not apply to someone who practices to become better at a video game?
But that harsh reality sends some gamers into a tizzy, because they were raised on "high score" gaming and damn it, their ePeens must be seen and admired. These are the same people who content PVP in MMOs involve "great skill". So again, sorry, but I kinda scoff.
And here is where you try to make anyone who disagrees with you look like a child and invalidate their opinion. Touche well played, nothing like getting that preemptive belittling of anyone who is going to disagree with you.
Oh and before you launch out of that whole 11 to 13 hour argument again, I have less time than you do to spend playing games. But when I do play I would rather not fall sleep face rolling the game.
who knows, perhaps we get a Wimshy-shire as bonus content if we rail against it. Also, there is a thread for difficulty, something they are aware of (loads of critisism came from the beta about this) and are looking at. This thread was ment to be about implementing different difficulties, while allowing for the two ends of all spectrums imaginable carebear-hardcore casual-powergaming (if the dichtonomy even exists, which I would say it doesn't... but that is philosophical)
Ryger5
Ok dude, seriously. You make alot of good points. And I agree with them; some on a personal-preference level, some on a "this is evolution of gaming"-level. But when you start making statements like "the market has spoken", or "slip another dime in sucker-design", you aggravate people (un?)intentionally. (really hope it is unintentionally, and not trolling).
When you make statements connecting a way of approaching games with airs of supperiority, comparing games and some peoples (mine!) enjoyment of them; with jerking off. You work against your chances of making a point.
You sound like you know what you are talking about, atleast that you have given this alot of thought. But I have not seen you change your tone, and you keep on spewing derogatory comparisons on people. Please stop that, and use that seemingly considerable cognition in helping to form ideas instead. Dont work against people in your group, work with them where you can.
Please read the first post, I have updated it with suggestions that allows you to have your way of playing, while it allows me to have mine. I hope that this is enough for you. And if you continue with this tirade, I will call troll on you.
I think the game can be challenging without making you repeat entire instances when your tank dies.
I don't think that anyone is advocating NO should be like that. But if you have classes that can fill dual roles then isn't that a comprimise where you can retain an element of a challenge if your primary defender dies then you can have a secondary class step in and pick up that role perhaps temporarily until the Leader rezzes the primary Defender? That would require some coordination. That would require some level of skill.
The other option is to make roles completely pointless and players can just button-mash the mob(s) or boss til they're dead and it doesn't matter who dies or who lives. A game like that comes down to who can get more attacks in: you or the AI mob. And if the AI mob's animations are inherently slow? Then that's an easy fight and lame content.
I also think, the market has spoken. Fans want massive amounts of content, endless tricks, traps and adventure, without a lot of "sorry go back and do it all over again" 80's style design.
What good is "massive amounts of content" if it's boring to play? And secondly your statement is completely based upon assumption and anecdotal evidence. I could just as easily argue that the market has spoken and fans don't want lame, boring content that is easy to just zerg your way through. You can still have those other elements: tricks, traps, adventure, riddles, etc. and also have meaningful content that has some level of challenge to it that isn't mindlessly boring.
I am not too impressed with people who think they have superior ePeens because they want uber-hardcore games. If you want NO to be more hardcore, self-impose penalties on yourself.
Asking for NO to not be mindlessly boring content does not equal people thinking they have superior ePeens. That's a very broad characterization. You can't paint everyone with the same brush stroke and think that you are being remotely accurate about the people playing NO. Again, this is assumption on your part that advocating some kind of death penalty equals wanting "uber-hardcore games". There are shades of grey in there that show various levels of diversity to those mechanics. They aren't all the same like you're assuming.
Some of us, believe it or not, have limited time and schedules. We have lives. Which means the idea of investing 11 to 13 hours in a session won't work for us. We have chores and responsibilities, even on weekends. So the few 2 to 3 hours we have, we don't need or want to be particular punitive. That doesn't mean we don't enjoy a good puzzle, or a challenging fight, or having to work as a team, we just don't need or want a game that think it is perfectly okay to smash their players into a pulp, the moment they twitch their left thumb instead of their right.
MMOs have far too much content and its players have far little time in comparison for that model to really work anymore.
Yeah, believe it or not, as a married father of two who works as a fulltime manager of ten employees and is on-call after hours, I understand making the most of your time in a MMO. Don't assume all of us are pimply-faced teenagers or college kids living at home off of mom and dad. There are plenty of folks on these boards who are full time parents and full time workers. Believe it or not, don't assume you're the only one on here who is.
If you insist its better, then impart those penalties on yourself. I wager you won't, because just like the rest of us, you'd much rather see what's beyond that next door, rather than repeat the one you already went through.
If imparting those penalties on myself gives me a game that has challenging content that isn't lame and boring to play then yes I will do it. And I can still get to the other side of that door just as easily as you can.
And I scoff, truly, truly scoff that somehow "hardcore" is superior, smarter or represents more skill. I've said it before, I'll say it again, bragging about your "skills" in a video game is akin to bragging about your "skills" in jerking. Sure, with a lot of practice, you get quite efficient, but it isn't really a skill and really you're just amusing yourself, so it's nothing to envy or admire.
But that harsh reality sends some gamers into a tizzy, because they were raised on "high score" gaming and damn it, their ePeens must be seen and admired. These are the same people who content PVP in MMOs involve "great skill". So again, sorry, but I kinda scoff.
Unlike say Atari's Asteroids, there's no "High Score" here in NO to rank players. The skill I'm referring to is what makes the game addictive, enticing, challenging, intriguing. You're confusing the two.
And the gamestyle you are advocating, of simply mashing the same attack buttons over and over and quaffing endless healing potions, I would find boring, lame, meaningless, repetitive and the content no matter how dazzling graphically or immersive the sounds are would be rendered pointless by the hollow gameplay.
I posted in the STO forum when they were considering adding a DP that I really liked the way the original Guild Wars did it. For those of you who didn't play, here's a primer:
Everyone starts out with zero DP.
Every time you die, you take -15 DP, to a maximum of -60 DP.
The amount of DP you have removes that much as a percent of your max health and energy. So, if you have 600 max health (the max you can get in the game), and have -15 DP, you'd only have 510 max HP.
DP can be removed at any time - mapping to a town removes DP completely, certain items available in-game can remove a bit, or just killing enemies removes DP at a slow state.
Killing boss monsters gives you a +2 Morale Boost, which maxes out at +10.
Opposing DP, this would ADD that much as a percent to your max health and energy. Again, if you have 600 max health, with +10 Morale Boost, you'd have 660 HP.
The only way to gain a Morale Boost is to kill bosses, gain Morale from certain items you can buy in-game or to interact with certain items in specific missions or dungeons.
Killing regular mobs gets you up to +1 DP removal. Killing a boss creature gives you +2 DP removal.
I always thought this was a good DP - penalize bad play, but also reward good play.
Comments
I would be ok with a gold penalty if it was based on the gold your currently carrying (and we have banks for gold...I never bothered to check in the beta weekend). That even makes sense thematically to be honest, and it would only be a fairly small loss (affecting the gold you make over the course of a quest, but only that gold as long as you store it before hand.
Something like 10% of total gold per death in a quest....even if you died 10 times you'd still have some gold left heh...but not much.
Saved alot of time
Good to see it back in mmo, its so RPG-gangam-style, yeah!
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest
Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ecy4o6JqLc
With the death system in the beta weekend, I wondered why the devs didnt just let us recall/teleport to the campfires since death served the same purpose. I do think they should have some minor penalty or allow us to recall/teleport (since that is what we will do anyways).
Cheers!
I'm all for the system how it is now, but what would be great is if we could opt for a wipe'or'win "Elite" option to a quest, where the stakes were higher and so were the rewards. Not that this is anything like "ahem" DDO, but in that game you pick your difficulty level prior to entering a quest. So you can pick Elite as an option and then there is a small difference in the quest, such as restrictions on rest shrine use, monster level/difficulty, and so on. If I'm right, in this game it is more akin to an automated difficulty slider... but it would be really nice if you were given an option to pick an extra hard, wipe/win difficulty. I'd like that option, for sure. Even if I rarely used it. It would be a really great test of your skill, and planning/strategy.
Thanks. I have not played the beta yet, so I can only go on what I've read thus far. If there is some sort of penalty (nothing will suit everybody), then I'll remain interested, even if it's on the light side. I just don't personally enjoy the game if coming back from death equals a button click and I'm back in it the fight. But, if quests as they are now do automatically slide up/down in difficulty depending on the # of players in the part and the level of the group, then perhaps there is more to it than we've seen so far in videos or from our current battery of testers.
That said, if Cryptic would allow for a difficulty selection by the party leader then it would be great to see a suggestion like the OP mentions, wipe'or'win, where you can't come back from death until the party is fully wiped, or the end boss is killed (all win requisites are fulfilled). Naturally, the rewards on such a difficulty selection would have to be pretty darn sweet!
And of course, my hope would be that this would be a selectable option such as "Elite" or "Epic" difficulty!
hehe , now there would be a interesting death penalty, ever time you die, which ever god (or that too hard angel or devil) you pray too comes in a little 30 secondish (maybe less) cut-scene and then you get the the camp fire. it be great the first few times, but after that you will want to avoid dying:) and the time it takes will stop zergging! (well mostly).
Naturally not used for leveling. But a group of friends might want to test their might. If you die, you are locked out of the dungeon, but have the option of being in ghost-mode/observing.
Also, mini-bosses wipeORwin can be solved by a applying a circular barrier that works much like the end-boss doors. It'd be funny to see the poor teammember standing just outside the barrier, acting like a cheer-leader.
The question of difficulty though. Got any suggestions for "easy to manipulate" aspects that would increase difficulty.
Or would you be fine with increase mob dmg and health?
Personally:
Magthere ranks used, lifted from http://teiravon3.com/wiki/index.php/Drow
Wanre: As is (since we heard that bosses actually WHERE wipeorwin)
Sargtlin: 50% mob hp & dmg
Kla'athe: 50% mob hp & dmg Minibosses puts up a barrier disallowing respawn and rejoining the fight. Longer bleedout by 100%
Sarol'veldruk: 75% mob hp & dmg No respawns, no bleedout. If downed, you only get up again when revived.
Ul'saruk: 100% mob hp & dmg True wipe or win. If you die, you get locked out of the dungeon/spectator. Bleedout increased 100%
Explanation: Bleedout increased means longer time in bleedout mode. It is fairly short, and a longer time balances the penalites somewhat.
What do you think? Perhaps adding increased frequency of splashes with difficulty. Larger encounters instead of higher dmg and hp. a good mix of fronline and ranged mobs. thats all "easy to change" aspects I can think of beyond Dmg and Hp
Something I both like and dislike in DDO is how death happens. For the most it's okay, but when you die, you both drop a stone, so your team can pick it up and escape to a rest shrine, and also your team mates can see a ghostly translucent version of you still running about. It's great that you are bound to your rez stone, but that fact that you can still be seen is a PITA. Why? Well because you are visual clutter, just hanging around getting in the way. I can't count the number of times I've asked or been asked to move so a stone could be picked up, or somebody found themselves swinging at the ghost of a dead mate, when they should have been attacking a mob.
On the other hand, the system in WoW does a good job at "hiding" you from sight, as though you are truly in another dimension. In WoW it's a two way hide though. You can't see your dead mate, and he/she can't see you either. Even if you are still in the same place. So, I'd be very impressed if death in NWO meant that you are totally invisible to your team. But even better if the dead could still linger around watching how things unfold. Until you are actually raised or release... or in the case of win or wipe, stuck until your team wins or fails as a whole.
I'm not a fan of most death penalties. Dealing with them either sets you back in time or game currency and feels like losing time actually playing the game. This is not a good way to keep the interest of players. Especially players who can play for free.
I wouldn't mind them doing something like ramping up the rewards for Invoking based on how long you have spent in-game without dying. Something small that caps in a few hours but provides an extra incentive to survive. Carrots are always better game design than sticks.
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I actually quite enjoy that idea. It's a nice simple incentive to stay alive. There will always be those of us who die often. And in a face paced game like Neverwinter, I'd expect that I'll die plenty of times during my learning curve. I'll just expect that. So penalizing me by taking my gold isn't going to be cool. I know this isn't shared by everyone on these forums, but on the whole, I'd much rather suffer a time penalty (having to release and run back to my corpse) than to give up my gold or items. In DDO your gear suffers damage and you have to pay to repair it. This isn't bad when money is plentiful, but when you are broke, or if you are a player who is always broke, that can be rough.
So ya, I like that carrot idea. It may even make me slow my game down some and think about what I'm doing.
Copying my comments from the same other thread as Silvergryph copied his from:
I like the idea of a small stacking bonus that increases as you gain XP without dying. Something like a buff to gold find, or even magic find. I know they already have gold find buffs in the game, you can get them from praying at those shrines to Waukeen using religion skill. They even stack. So giving a small, stacking gold find buff for not dying would be a nice little incentive, but the loss of it would not be a big deal.
Or maybe even a little direct astral diamond reward for each X number of XP earned without dying.
Deja vu... :cool:
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Edit, I re-read your suggestion.
The hardest difficulty I suggested would be Hard-core mode.
But ressurection would be possible in the second to hardest difficulty, since bleed-out never results in death. But releasing and respawning at a save-point is out.
difficulty level 1,2,3: Wanre, Sargtlin, Kla'athe, all allow respawn at savepoint. Only Kla'athe disallows rejoining the fight against a mini-boss.
So, what you are suggesting is actually covered in the Sarol'veldruk difficulty.
Having a death penalty, and mind you I'm not advocating for hardcore or perma-death mechanic, gives the game content a level of difficulty and requires players to have some level of skill at a minimum to be successful a said difficult content. In other words: a challenge.
I like the idea of your character being incapacitated in place until rezzed or the option to respawn at a savepoint. While waiting for a rez, the screen goes greyscale while the action still goes on but you cannot contribute to it as your character is kneeling or laying down. Once rezzed by another player you have full stats and normal health. But if you respawn, then you have say a 10min debuff for stats combined with increased incoming damage and have to run back to where you were - or something like that.
But these people advocating no death penalty or simply run back to where you were? Wow. Do you also only want enemies to only use fluffy feather pillows to attack your toon with and the game have rose petals laid at your feet for you to guide back to where you were?
Wipe and try again!
We're just noting that the trend has been to make "death" less and less punitive, that the old school arcade-mentality of "sorry do it all over again" is mercifully dying. Mercifully, because it was a crock, it was just a way for game designers to maximize their content, making it so you had to repeat it over and over again, until was perfected.
Otherwise known as the "slip another quarter in you sucker" design.
I think the game can be challenging without making you repeat entire instances when your tank dies. I also think the tank/heal/DPS model is growing super-tired too, but that's another topic for another time!
I also think, the market has spoken. Fans want massive amounts of content, endless tricks, traps and adventure, without a lot of "sorry go back and do it all over again" 80's style design.
I am not too impressed with people who think they have superior ePeens because they want uber-hardcore games. If you want NO to be more hardcore, self-impose penalties on yourself.
Some of us, believe it or not, have limited time and schedules. We have lives. Which means the idea of investing 11 to 13 hours in a session won't work for us. We have chores and responsibilities, even on weekends. So the few 2 to 3 hours we have, we don't need or want to be particular punitive. That doesn't mean we don't enjoy a good puzzle, or a challenging fight, or having to work as a team, we just don't need or want a game that think it is perfectly okay to smash their players into a pulp, the moment they twitch their left thumb instead of their right.
MMOs have far too much content and its players have far little time in comparison for that model to really work anymore.
If you insist its better, then impart those penalties on yourself. I wager you won't, because just like the rest of us, you'd much rather see what's beyond that next door, rather than repeat the one you already went through.
And I scoff, truly, truly scoff that somehow "hardcore" is superior, smarter or represents more skill. I've said it before, I'll say it again, bragging about your "skills" in a video game is akin to bragging about your "skills" in jerking. Sure, with a lot of practice, you get quite efficient, but it isn't really a skill and really you're just amusing yourself, so it's nothing to envy or admire.
But that harsh reality sends some gamers into a tizzy, because they were raised on "high score" gaming and damn it, their ePeens must be seen and admired. These are the same people who content PVP in MMOs involve "great skill". So again, sorry, but I kinda scoff.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
But it is more fun to beat people with sticks than carrots. The carrots just break and cause no real pain. Now a good stick on the other hand......:rolleyes: Oh I mean......nevermind
Thanks for generalizing about everyone who likes a challenge in a game. I could generalize in a negative fashion about all people who want to face roll a game too. But it is not worth it and won't sink down to that level. Not everyone that wants a challenge wants it to be some grotesque penalty for death.
So something that you get better at with a lot of practice is not a skill? Hmm ok. Just do me a favor and tell every artisen you meet that they don't have any skill. I mean they may have only spent years practicing and developing their skill to do what they do, but it is not skill. Just because it is a game doesn't mean that someone who excels at it doesn't have skill at it. Football, Basketball, Chess, Soccer, Hockey, and Poker, are all games too. Are people who are really good at them not have skill too? Oh I get it, it is not on a computer or a console so those things can be skills right?
From websters:
Definition of SKILL
1
obsolete : cause, reason
2
a : the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance
b : dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks
3
: a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability
Which one of those does not apply to someone who practices to become better at a video game?
And here is where you try to make anyone who disagrees with you look like a child and invalidate their opinion. Touche well played, nothing like getting that preemptive belittling of anyone who is going to disagree with you.
Oh and before you launch out of that whole 11 to 13 hour argument again, I have less time than you do to spend playing games. But when I do play I would rather not fall sleep face rolling the game.
Kingslayer74: They have their opinions. While I personally agree with you on what you state, derogatory statements against carebear-gaming is best expressed in this thread called: Give me hello kitty mode
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?57641-Give-me-hello-kitty-mode!
who knows, perhaps we get a Wimshy-shire as bonus content if we rail against it. Also, there is a thread for difficulty, something they are aware of (loads of critisism came from the beta about this) and are looking at. This thread was ment to be about implementing different difficulties, while allowing for the two ends of all spectrums imaginable carebear-hardcore casual-powergaming (if the dichtonomy even exists, which I would say it doesn't... but that is philosophical)
Ryger5
Ok dude, seriously. You make alot of good points. And I agree with them; some on a personal-preference level, some on a "this is evolution of gaming"-level. But when you start making statements like "the market has spoken", or "slip another dime in sucker-design", you aggravate people (un?)intentionally. (really hope it is unintentionally, and not trolling).
When you make statements connecting a way of approaching games with airs of supperiority, comparing games and some peoples (mine!) enjoyment of them; with jerking off. You work against your chances of making a point.
You sound like you know what you are talking about, atleast that you have given this alot of thought. But I have not seen you change your tone, and you keep on spewing derogatory comparisons on people. Please stop that, and use that seemingly considerable cognition in helping to form ideas instead. Dont work against people in your group, work with them where you can.
Please read the first post, I have updated it with suggestions that allows you to have your way of playing, while it allows me to have mine. I hope that this is enough for you. And if you continue with this tirade, I will call troll on you.
I don't think that anyone is advocating NO should be like that. But if you have classes that can fill dual roles then isn't that a comprimise where you can retain an element of a challenge if your primary defender dies then you can have a secondary class step in and pick up that role perhaps temporarily until the Leader rezzes the primary Defender? That would require some coordination. That would require some level of skill.
The other option is to make roles completely pointless and players can just button-mash the mob(s) or boss til they're dead and it doesn't matter who dies or who lives. A game like that comes down to who can get more attacks in: you or the AI mob. And if the AI mob's animations are inherently slow? Then that's an easy fight and lame content.
What good is "massive amounts of content" if it's boring to play? And secondly your statement is completely based upon assumption and anecdotal evidence. I could just as easily argue that the market has spoken and fans don't want lame, boring content that is easy to just zerg your way through. You can still have those other elements: tricks, traps, adventure, riddles, etc. and also have meaningful content that has some level of challenge to it that isn't mindlessly boring.
Asking for NO to not be mindlessly boring content does not equal people thinking they have superior ePeens. That's a very broad characterization. You can't paint everyone with the same brush stroke and think that you are being remotely accurate about the people playing NO. Again, this is assumption on your part that advocating some kind of death penalty equals wanting "uber-hardcore games". There are shades of grey in there that show various levels of diversity to those mechanics. They aren't all the same like you're assuming.
Yeah, believe it or not, as a married father of two who works as a fulltime manager of ten employees and is on-call after hours, I understand making the most of your time in a MMO. Don't assume all of us are pimply-faced teenagers or college kids living at home off of mom and dad. There are plenty of folks on these boards who are full time parents and full time workers. Believe it or not, don't assume you're the only one on here who is.
If imparting those penalties on myself gives me a game that has challenging content that isn't lame and boring to play then yes I will do it. And I can still get to the other side of that door just as easily as you can.
Unlike say Atari's Asteroids, there's no "High Score" here in NO to rank players. The skill I'm referring to is what makes the game addictive, enticing, challenging, intriguing. You're confusing the two.
And the gamestyle you are advocating, of simply mashing the same attack buttons over and over and quaffing endless healing potions, I would find boring, lame, meaningless, repetitive and the content no matter how dazzling graphically or immersive the sounds are would be rendered pointless by the hollow gameplay.
Everyone starts out with zero DP.
Every time you die, you take -15 DP, to a maximum of -60 DP.
The amount of DP you have removes that much as a percent of your max health and energy. So, if you have 600 max health (the max you can get in the game), and have -15 DP, you'd only have 510 max HP.
DP can be removed at any time - mapping to a town removes DP completely, certain items available in-game can remove a bit, or just killing enemies removes DP at a slow state.
Killing boss monsters gives you a +2 Morale Boost, which maxes out at +10.
Opposing DP, this would ADD that much as a percent to your max health and energy. Again, if you have 600 max health, with +10 Morale Boost, you'd have 660 HP.
The only way to gain a Morale Boost is to kill bosses, gain Morale from certain items you can buy in-game or to interact with certain items in specific missions or dungeons.
Killing regular mobs gets you up to +1 DP removal. Killing a boss creature gives you +2 DP removal.
I always thought this was a good DP - penalize bad play, but also reward good play.