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death in Neverwinter
spellwarden
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 357 Bounty Hunter
This is not really a question. I understand how the mechanics work. But it does worry me.
There seems to be little impairment from dying.
Now, don't get me wrong. I like the "bleeding out" mechanic. A CM or DC becomes important to clear the area so that the PC can be raised. But should you die, it is only a question of running back again. And this is where I get concerned.
There are no real wipes, no stress, and no need to be focused. First I hoped that boss-battles atleast would require a full wipe or win before the PC that died, can return to the party (locked doors or something). But that does not seem to be the case. Instead it is just zerg-rush that moffa untill they are down. - This has been informed as being a none-issue for this thread.
I am not one who likes XP loss, gold loss, or the likes. But I do feel that if you fail, you start over again. But I see no stressor in the way the system works. It is, simply put, a death-match mechanic.
If I am wrong, please correct me.
Here are suggestions from (me) posters in this thread, for ease of review
First, suggested difficulty levels
Personally:
Magthere ranks used, lifted from http://teiravon3.com/wiki/index.php/Drow
Wanre: As is (since we heard that bosses actually WHERE wipeorwin)
Sargtlin: 50% mob hp & dmg
Kla'athe: 50% mob hp & dmg Minibosses puts up a barrier disallowing respawn and rejoining the fight. Longer bleedout by 100%
Sarol'veldruk: 75% mob hp & dmg No respawns, no bleedout. If downed, you only get up again when revived.
Ul'saruk: 100% mob hp & dmg True wipe or win. If you die, you get locked out of the dungeon/spectator. Bleedout increased 100%
Explanation: Bleedout increased means longer time in bleedout mode. It is fairly short, and a longer time balances the penalites somewhat. No bleed-out means that you are downed untill someone revives you, no matter the time it takes.
There seems to be little impairment from dying.
Now, don't get me wrong. I like the "bleeding out" mechanic. A CM or DC becomes important to clear the area so that the PC can be raised. But should you die, it is only a question of running back again. And this is where I get concerned.
There are no real wipes, no stress, and no need to be focused. First I hoped that boss-battles atleast would require a full wipe or win before the PC that died, can return to the party (locked doors or something). But that does not seem to be the case. Instead it is just zerg-rush that moffa untill they are down. - This has been informed as being a none-issue for this thread.
I am not one who likes XP loss, gold loss, or the likes. But I do feel that if you fail, you start over again. But I see no stressor in the way the system works. It is, simply put, a death-match mechanic.
If I am wrong, please correct me.
Here are suggestions from (me) posters in this thread, for ease of review
First, suggested difficulty levels
Personally:
Magthere ranks used, lifted from http://teiravon3.com/wiki/index.php/Drow
Wanre: As is (since we heard that bosses actually WHERE wipeorwin)
Sargtlin: 50% mob hp & dmg
Kla'athe: 50% mob hp & dmg Minibosses puts up a barrier disallowing respawn and rejoining the fight. Longer bleedout by 100%
Sarol'veldruk: 75% mob hp & dmg No respawns, no bleedout. If downed, you only get up again when revived.
Ul'saruk: 100% mob hp & dmg True wipe or win. If you die, you get locked out of the dungeon/spectator. Bleedout increased 100%
Explanation: Bleedout increased means longer time in bleedout mode. It is fairly short, and a longer time balances the penalites somewhat. No bleed-out means that you are downed untill someone revives you, no matter the time it takes.
silvergryph wrote: »...
I wouldn't mind them doing something like ramping up the rewards for Invoking based on how long you have spent in-game without dying. Something small that caps in a few hours but provides an extra incentive to survive. Carrots are always better game design than sticks.
firesnakearies wrote: »...
I like the idea of a small stacking bonus that increases as you gain XP without dying. Something like a buff to gold find, or even magic find. I know they already have gold find buffs in the game, you can get them from praying at those shrines to Waukeen using religion skill. They even stack. So giving a small, stacking gold find buff for not dying would be a nice little incentive, but the loss of it would not be a big deal.
Or maybe even a little direct astral diamond reward for each X number of XP earned without dying.
Post edited by spellwarden on
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just takes the fun out of playing the game and adds a penalty for no good reason at all.
I get where you're coming from, but the stress of leaving allies behind fighting while hurrying with the hope that my death doesn't cause them to die and then all of us to start over is enough to make me feel bad.
TBH, I know I am gonna get dislikes simply for using the name here. But I like how it worked in D3. Now, there seems little stress or point in trying to revive. The system in place now removes the need or use of the "bleed out" mechanic.
If you fail, try again. Respawn just outside, but if you die, you are dead untill wipe or win. That is all I am saying.
Outside of this, though, there's no real reason not to zerg rush in a Cryptic game.
However, I can't see any way to add death penalties to a casual game like this without it just being a pain in the HAMSTER. I hate res sickness, I hate legwork to get back to the action, I hate xp and gold loss, etc, etc. It won't make the game more exciting fearing these punishments. I'm more interested about whats in the big chest and the end.
But it was not worth the hassle. Especially if I died just while running around and then had to take twenty (real world) minute boat ride to get to a different continent and then carefully sneak my naked HAMSTER to find my corpse and hope it wasn't being camped by some monster so that I could retrieve my gear.
I can appreciate how NO death penalty irks some people, but as I've gotten older, I find I have less patience for time sinks / punishments like even damaged gear that has to be repaired. It's not like I'm NOT going to repair --- I have to ---- so it's just a simple time / money sink. Or to put it another way, it's an ~enjoyment~ sink...
I'm sure there's a compromise between 'zerg' swarms and burdensome death penalties and from what I saw, Neverwinter seems just fine to me (but then, I don't like dying even if there IS no penalty, so I'm unlikely to just zerg zerg zerg).
When you die, you:
are barred from boss-encounters untill the group wins, or dies.
you respawn just outside the boss-doors, and have to wait. OR enter into spectator mode, so you are still entertained. If only to see your comrades fight a loosing battle.
When you die, you don't:
Get an XP cut
Loose gold
Get rez-sickness (less health, mana, dmg, visual impairments, and the likes)
Have to run really far to get back to the fights.
<Edit, so there is no confusion>
Loose gear-integrity (repairing)
have to click through menues
get a harsh word for sucking
or any other shape, flavour, or form of penalty.
The reason:
Because boss-fights that you zerg loose all value as a difficult encounter, something to master.
Roadkilla: If you want no difficulty, no challenge, go play a Dark Side Jedi in Starwarsgalaxies. Since facerolling in any shape or form always kills the player-base.
That's exactly the sort of story that makes me glad those sorts of systems existed. That sounds totally awesome. But it also sounds like something I'd never want to do, haha.
Now, if this was a sandbox game, and we were actually supposed to become part of the world in a meaning full way, then death matters. Alot actually.
yea I thought the same thing. Death penalty was very little if at all. I found myself dying on purpose a few times just to respawn closer to where I need to go.
As much as I hate to say it, I think Wow has the best death penalty - either run back as a ghost or respawn at the graveyard with a 10min debuff.
This was great fun!
Hearing people in Plane of Knowledge begging for a corpse runner because they DC'd at the end of a dungeon and couldn't get their loot back heh!
PvE Enthusiast.
Solo...if you die, you have to refight the battle all together. It doesn't reset everything (you lose potions etc you have used) which actually means you could drain someone dry of potions till they have no chance to finish a boss fight at all anymore. Other then that though, it's like a redo where you just replay the battle until you win. Your character didn't die, you failed at playing through his encounter correctly and you retry until you do it right.
In a party if someone dies other players can help him get back up....but if they dont' do it fast enough in a boss fight, they get restricted from the fight till it's over. If the whole party dies, they all have to do the battle over again.
Both setups (in a party and solo) rewards skill and allows for battles to need a high level of skill as well to finish. You can't make roadblocks in a game like this (that only 10% of the player base can pass) if every death makes them weaker etc, but by having them just replay the battle over again, you can make it so they need to learn how to defeat hard bosses etc over time. Perhaps 10% of the player base can defeat the enemy the first time, 30% need a few goes at it, 50% need multiple times and some luck to defeat the boss and the last 10% end up needing some help heh.
My point is that this setup really allows you to have skill play a big part in battles without ruining the game for a large percentage of the players. If you die.....you still learned from your previous battle, and you still need to go back in and WIN this time.
If a party wipes (hopefully there will be bosses that make that happen later in the game), then you can all talk about the battle and come up with a better strategy before going back in.
No additional penalties are needed at all. It's the best system I have ever seen to be honest.
Your that guy that wants a button to click that makes you max level and geared out too right?
I think, mercifully, the old days of "put another quarter in and repeat it all over again" are dead. The old scheme where games would maximize their content by forcing you to get it perfect, (otherwise you go back to the chapter start and do it all over again), just doesn't cut it anymore. In fact, games that still have even a smattering of this design, I just toss away as a dodo. Look I liked the Batman Asylum series, but that whole "glide, perfectly 100% onto this small rock outcrop, or die and start all over again from 7 glides ago, that you previously made" - just gets tired. It seems so much like 1983 and not 2013.
Games are so vast and MMOs already require vast amounts of time "to do everything" none of this is really necessary. In D&D, traditionally, there was a "bleed" factor when you were knocked below 0HP, which provided a great deal of time to engineer a heal. It was only when you received a blow so fierce that it took you past -10 (or -CON score later), that death was rather instantaneous.
So D&D has a tradition of being very "heroic" in the sense that characters get massive injuries, but rarely die, and usually a Cleric with soft hands gets you right as rain within minutes.
But I should confess a bias here. I am a role player. This means the "mechanical challenge" of a game are never a thrill for me. I don't ever seek to master being a marquee "thumb and finger twitcher" in any of these games. I'll also confess, that I can only take any combat mechanics for a few hours before my eyes glaze over in boredom. So I grind slowly and in small two-hour doses and take long breaks in-between. During those breaks, I seek out RP, I get more familiar with my character, I "slow down" and let my character live and breathe in the space the game provides. In fact, I am such a Carebear this way, that I've spent years playing some games and have NEVER reached level-cap. In fact, only in City of Heroes have I ever reached level-cap, and that was just one character.
To put that in perspective, I've been playing Warcraft off-and-on since early 2005. 8 years and the highest level character I have is level 70.
So suffice to say, my views on death and XP mechanics the day-to-day grind which is the meat and potatoes for most gamers, is severely skewed. In fact, every time I hear a game is adding more "end-game" content or gear, I shrug. But if the game adds one single emote, or an RP flag, or personal/guild housing and I squee.
So for me, the "death" rules are fine. I always kind of laugh at gamers who preen about their "skills" anyway. I mean, let's face it, bragging about how well you play a video game is akin to bragging about how well you jerk off. There's no real "skills" involved, let's call it "skillz", because truly, these games require more time investment than actual "skill" and whatever "skill" there is, has to be on the same level as the "skill" required to drink a vodka martini without wincing. Sure it takes practice, sure it requires some experience, but it's also something you're doing for your own amusement and pleasure, so, you know, it ain't really something worth bragging about.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Exactly the opposite. I'm the guy that wants a challenge on the way up, and who gets bored with most characters once they are maxed. It's the journey I enjoy, and I want to have a challenging journey. I have played MMO's since the start (and muds before them) and so finding a challenge in an MMO is hard. I'm in the 10% of players that could defeat stuff the first time.
It's rare to find a challenge for long term players when a game has to be built around the average player (so they can actually progress). With a death system like they have in NWO....they can give me a challenge without ruining the game for other players.
In addition we have foundry missions to give us challenges as well. It's really a great system.
In NWO if you die, it's a let down, but not a big one, and you learn from it. You will probably never have players rage quit due to dying and in fact most will probably continue on to finish the quest they started. Meanwhile, they will STILL need to actually defeat the battle that killed them, so skill and effort is still involved.
I think it's the best of all worlds basically.
there aren't any difficult mmo's there are just ones that are not fun to play because of stupid out dated play mechanics that are not needed.
I don't know how well versed you guys are in existencial filosofy and positive psychology, but in short. Without challange, there are many personality-types that feel stagnated, and become borderline depressed. Most skills in life take nothing short of a life-time to hone. But games take a weekend at worst. This progression-process is what made games such a large part of our society. The gathering-mechanic, the leveling process, the competition without pain and sweat.
So no, it is not about jerking off. But more about accepting that we are not the greatest, without feeling like we are useless.
there aren't any difficult mmo's there are just ones that are not fun to play because of stupid out dated play mechanics that are not needed.[/QUOTE]
Um, DDO (dungeons and dragons online) can be quite difficult even for long term vets of the game. It's why I still play it after all these years. I love the difficulty/challenge. You can ruin that by outfitting yourself with uber EQ etc to some degree, but doing quests solo on elite even with decent EQ can still be a challenge.
The death penalty in DDO is just damaged EQ btw, which while annoying isn't a massive road block. I actually played hardcore there for a few years (it's not an option, I just would delete any character that died myself) because it was a blast to play that way.
You don't need a game to enforce a death penalty. If you really want one, make a penalty yourself heh. I think NWO handles it perfectly. The real penalty from death is your time....and that is more then enough usually.
Now, I loved the potential of D3. If people had been forced to play as a team, it would have been a great game. But as usual, the item-heavy games loose the class defenition as it becomes utilizing the micro-management to compleatly changethe combat mechanic. Critical Mass and Wicked Wind Wizzard for example (youtube it if you dont understand what I mean, it is really odd).
In essence, what I am looking for is a game that is geared towards promoting team-play. WoW was good at this after a few years. But the game itself was too floaty, and demanded waaay to much time in grinding to even get close to any of that gameplay.
As for getting through the dungeon, I accept the death-mechanic in NWO, even welcome it party. But I would love to see bossbattles being focused on necessity of team-play, not zerging with endless lives.
Many complained about the bosses in D3, and while I agree, at the same time I think that the mechanic of the bosses, the way it dissallowed joining the fight after you died, the way it used zelda-like patterns of attack, telegraphing heavy attacks and such, was a step in the right direction.
That is all. The rest is nice as it is.
So we should accept that MMO is carebear? then why are you looking at a game that is action oriented? there are other MMO's out now that have all the things you seem to want (GW2 for one). I understand you, but I don't think you understand me.[/QUOTE]
i've played dnd since the 70's and pretty much every other game out there on a computer since the 80's.
troll away and i'll be sure to ignore any more posts from you in the future.
I don't think everyone feels that way, but I certainly enjoy the challenge in a game. If it's too easy, I get bored and move on quickly.
I've played online games since they were all based on college campuses around the world (and even before that on BBs's), and I think one of the biggest draws is the constant mental stimulation and always having a goal, something to strive for.
Thing is, for me, if there is no difficulty or skill needed, then it's like watching paint dry. You are not really actively doing anything and your actions make very little difference.
The early levels in NWO are a bit too easy (I know they get more diff, and by the spell plague area I was having fun), but they go by really fast..so it's no big deal (and it gives new players a way to get used to the game).
Death penalty should NOT be where difficulty comes from in my opinion. Dying is already a negative experience, and you already are going to be loosing effort and time in the process. Adding in additional penalties just makes players more upset and can drive away players who are new to the game or MMO's in general (or just not very skilled, or young and still learning etc).
In NWO there are some things I'm not thrilled about. I'd like to see more character customization (more control over starting stats, more choices on level up etc)...but the death system I think is great. It allows SKILL to play a large role in combat..and penalizes lack of skill simply by making players improve those skills. It's perfect.
There's a reason you DON'T see many games built like that. They would fail instantly.
I still boggle at the time I "invested" in playing Everquest "back in the day"... I simply cannot imagine how I had enough free time to do raids that required, like, multiple HOURS and such insane coordination. Now-a-days, the casual market is where the money is, so the game's going to have minimal roadblocks to fun, and death of your character is NOT fun, regardless of the penalty. A more severe penalty will just drive more players away, faster.
I think we accept that the market has spoken, that games mired in the design of "constant repetition of the same content, until you get it 100% right", are starting to wither and die. Games that rely on collaboration and are becoming more focused on exploration, story and interaction are slowly gaining.
You can call that "Carebear" if you want. I am personally, quite comfortable with that term.
But I always kind of gagged on the idea that all games, even RPGs are competitive. When RPGs first splashed onto the gaming scene in the 70's, their unique quality was that they were NOT competitive.
You ask why a Carebear would play an "action MMO"? I ask why a competitive gamer would play an RPG. I mean, surely, there's a plethora of FPS games, that are all about "my ePeen is greater than yours".
Obviously, there's a myriad of taste and play styles out there. I don't contend mine is superior to anyone's. I am a lollygag role player. I have no business claiming I'm superior to anyone.
I can log in for hours and hours and not accrue a single penny of XP. In fact, as I tire of the mechanics, this becomes more and more what I tend to do. The mechanics of video games generally bore me after a while. I can generally only manage a few hours before my eyes glaze. For me, it's repetitive, it's not very challenging and usually it's only "challenge" is to twitch a thumb or a finger slightly faster than you did the first time you tried it. YAWN.
But some gamers get off on power-gaming, ascending to cap as fast as possible, then collecting all the best gear at cap, as fast as possible. Goody for those power-gamers!
My only criticism of power-gaming philosophy is two-fold. The first is, they sometimes consider themselves superior to all other gamers. The second is, given that superiority, they tend to believe they are the only kind of gamer that matters, going so far as to believe all other gaming styles "aren't playing the game right".
Which tends to lead to phrases like, "Why are you even playing this game? Go play this other game, that I have a great deal of disdain for!"
Not all of us play MMOs to be "uber". It's not that we're "uber" enough in real life, it's just that we value escapism more than competitive zeal.
And quite frankly, what the video market is learning, is that there are far, far more of us than previously realized. In fact, I'd say the common theme of video game culture these last few years, is a slow migration away from ePeen, alpha-male competitions, (the slow erosion of 4chan culture along with it), and a general inclusion of all kinds of gamers, old, young, male, female and across the globe.
That means games have to cater to all kinds of play styles. Good games do that and I believe that NO has found a superb balance. The Foundry, is a clear example, that some of us don't just play these games to become "uber". Some of us view these games as creative expression. That doesn't make us superior, not one little iota, but we're also a vital part of the gaming industry today. We spend money just like everyone else, in fact, I think TSW proved nicely, that role players are excellent cash cows. Give them a new, groovy hate to wear and RPers tend to cough up their debit cards with reckless abandon.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
All games have this option. It's called deleting your character when you die. I've done it in many games. It's quite fun to play a character with the knowledge that if you die, it's permanent. It's also a great way to extend how long you'll spend playing a game as well.
But it's an option, so players who want it (like me sometimes) can choose it themselves. Forcing it on others makes no sense at all. It's about what YOU enjoy, not forcing everyone else to play the same way as you.
If you want to put a bigger penalty on death in NWO, just throw away 10% of your total gold each time you die. Unless things change later on a majority of EXP comes from quests in NWO.....so just go randomly kill monsters for an hour or two to make up the exp you would have lost when you died if there was an exp penalty.
You can always create your own death penalties.