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Why min # of characters should start at more then 2.
wulfster42
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 183 Bounty Hunter
Hi everyone.
I played in the last beta weekend and really enjoyed the game. I bought the founders pack, so I had enough character slots to try all the current available classes.
I have read that it has not been determined yet how many character slots players will have initially at launch. It may be more then 2, but the total number has not been decided yet.
I thought I would post some reasons why it should be more then 2.
First, as was pointed out in other threads, players could just make alternative free accounts to play the other "core" classes. In theory you can make 3 accounts and have 6 total character slots that way. The real advantage then of more character slots is simply being able to have them all on one account, and have access to any other additional content you have purchased for all your characters at once.
It seems to me that having fewer character slots will actually reduce how many account options players will purchase, since they will often want to try the other classes first before investing money in a new slot, which means playing on a different account. Once the do that, they are far less likely to purchase another slot anyway.
I'd suggest the following:
Start all accounts with 3 base character slots (minimum). As an added in game bonus, the first time you get any character on an account to level 40 (mid-high lvl whatever that is)...you gain another character slot.
Additional character slots over that are available in the cash shop.
This could allow players to have 4/5 base characters on a totally free account. If you enjoy the game, you can buy more slots when new classes come out (along with the classes themselves).
What is more, Guardian packs give you full access to all 5 character classes (Eventually), and Hero packs net you a total of 7 slots (you'll still have to pay for the new classes when they come out, but at least you'll have the slots for them).
After playing TERA, I saw what having only a few character slots can do. Yes, I could go and make another account if I want, but I didn't like the game enough to really want to do that (Wasn't a big enough difference in how the classes played for me anyway....it's pretty much ranged characters or melee characters). That caused me to keep deleting characters to try the others, which made me burn out on the early content (it's pretty boring in TERA though...not nearly as fun as NW last weekend).
My point is only that if you have to keep deleting characters to try them all out...when your first starting to play a game (and deciding if you want to invest in it)....it can lead to players repeating the same content and getting bored with it quickly.
I already repeated the early content (1-20 or so) about 4 times last weekend (Tested out different stats with a guardian twice)...and it was still fun for me. Still not everyone is going to feel that way, and having more character slots is only going to help get more people to play the game.
We want he character slots to have some value of course (Especially since it's one of the main things you get from the guardian packs), but at the same time, don't want to stifle new players and make them have to delete characters just to try out all the classes and choose which ones they want to play.
Another option would be to have more or even unlimited character slots, but in order to level past 20 on any character slot past the inital 2, you need to purchase the slot. That would let players try out all the classes and then choose which ones they want to keep playing. That would also work well for new classes being released (allow anyone to play the new class up to 20, but then need to purchase it to keep playing past 20).
I like that idea alot more since it means:
New players can try every class and then choose which they want to keep playing (without ever having to delete them).
Much less likely for players to make multiple accounts (by the time you play 20 levels, it's worth it to buy another slot instead of just playing on another account).
Everyone can try new classes and only purchase them if they enjoy the class.
Additional character slots still have value (so we get something from the founders packs) but it doesn't restrict players who don't have the packs or buy new character slots nearly as much.
So in summary:
I think we should either start off with more character slots, or have additional character slots have a level limit until they are purchased from the store.
If we have more character slots I would suggest 4 base, 5 for guardians and 7 for Heros.
If we have unlimited character slots I would suggest a level limit to all character slots after the initial 2 base, 3 for guardians and 5 for heros.
I played in the last beta weekend and really enjoyed the game. I bought the founders pack, so I had enough character slots to try all the current available classes.
I have read that it has not been determined yet how many character slots players will have initially at launch. It may be more then 2, but the total number has not been decided yet.
I thought I would post some reasons why it should be more then 2.
First, as was pointed out in other threads, players could just make alternative free accounts to play the other "core" classes. In theory you can make 3 accounts and have 6 total character slots that way. The real advantage then of more character slots is simply being able to have them all on one account, and have access to any other additional content you have purchased for all your characters at once.
It seems to me that having fewer character slots will actually reduce how many account options players will purchase, since they will often want to try the other classes first before investing money in a new slot, which means playing on a different account. Once the do that, they are far less likely to purchase another slot anyway.
I'd suggest the following:
Start all accounts with 3 base character slots (minimum). As an added in game bonus, the first time you get any character on an account to level 40 (mid-high lvl whatever that is)...you gain another character slot.
Additional character slots over that are available in the cash shop.
This could allow players to have 4/5 base characters on a totally free account. If you enjoy the game, you can buy more slots when new classes come out (along with the classes themselves).
What is more, Guardian packs give you full access to all 5 character classes (Eventually), and Hero packs net you a total of 7 slots (you'll still have to pay for the new classes when they come out, but at least you'll have the slots for them).
After playing TERA, I saw what having only a few character slots can do. Yes, I could go and make another account if I want, but I didn't like the game enough to really want to do that (Wasn't a big enough difference in how the classes played for me anyway....it's pretty much ranged characters or melee characters). That caused me to keep deleting characters to try the others, which made me burn out on the early content (it's pretty boring in TERA though...not nearly as fun as NW last weekend).
My point is only that if you have to keep deleting characters to try them all out...when your first starting to play a game (and deciding if you want to invest in it)....it can lead to players repeating the same content and getting bored with it quickly.
I already repeated the early content (1-20 or so) about 4 times last weekend (Tested out different stats with a guardian twice)...and it was still fun for me. Still not everyone is going to feel that way, and having more character slots is only going to help get more people to play the game.
We want he character slots to have some value of course (Especially since it's one of the main things you get from the guardian packs), but at the same time, don't want to stifle new players and make them have to delete characters just to try out all the classes and choose which ones they want to play.
Another option would be to have more or even unlimited character slots, but in order to level past 20 on any character slot past the inital 2, you need to purchase the slot. That would let players try out all the classes and then choose which ones they want to keep playing. That would also work well for new classes being released (allow anyone to play the new class up to 20, but then need to purchase it to keep playing past 20).
I like that idea alot more since it means:
New players can try every class and then choose which they want to keep playing (without ever having to delete them).
Much less likely for players to make multiple accounts (by the time you play 20 levels, it's worth it to buy another slot instead of just playing on another account).
Everyone can try new classes and only purchase them if they enjoy the class.
Additional character slots still have value (so we get something from the founders packs) but it doesn't restrict players who don't have the packs or buy new character slots nearly as much.
So in summary:
I think we should either start off with more character slots, or have additional character slots have a level limit until they are purchased from the store.
If we have more character slots I would suggest 4 base, 5 for guardians and 7 for Heros.
If we have unlimited character slots I would suggest a level limit to all character slots after the initial 2 base, 3 for guardians and 5 for heros.
Post edited by wulfster42 on
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But it will depend on how much the slots cost.
I completely agree with you here. If I've leveled a character up to level 30-40 and want to play an alt or I'm getting bored, I'd hate to have to delete the character to play an alt I don't know if I'll enjoy, on top of that, I'd hate to have to pay to be able to experiment with classes.
Good suggestion, hope they take it into account.
PvE Enthusiast.
Giving people more character slots as a standard will encourage people to buy those account wide unlocks and whatnot, as they'll see value in such purchases (they will apply to all of those player's characters, not just 2 out of their 6 or so scattered across multiple accounts).
They are that way for a reason. Buy another slot.
Short term thinking at profit-making, as I outlined above.
Or, I could create a new account and play it.
In which case, why would I buy anything account specific if I'm playing two accounts. (Which has been forced upon me somewhat)
PvE Enthusiast.
Ya they want people to BUY more. The inventory bank slot was 40 but during the beta the decreased it to 16 that what it said in the patch notes.
So again I think that this game is going to be a big money grab if you want to do any kind of up grade. We the people playing the game will have the strict minimum unless of course you spend real cash. Don't get me wrong I don't mind spending some cash but to a point. And to always have the bare minimum is getting OLD fast unless you pay.
Yes, short term thinking at profit-making, see above^
I disagree. Impulse buying is extreme and huge numbers of people will make those impulse buys to keep all there characters on the same account if for nothing else for their @ name. CO only gives 2 slots too. Do you think they wouldn't have made a change if it wasn't paying off for them in past titles? It is not short term thinking. I am sure plenty of data has been analyzed to support their ideas. There are probably weekly meetings that analyze customer spending habits and the best way to make more money ( I know there are at my company).
The people who have many characters on their account will be more likely to buy account-wide unlocks, while those who have many characters spread across several accounts almost certainly will not be buying any account unlocks.
Basically it makes more sense to give people a head start on investing into their one account, by giving a larger number of characters to start game with (so people can try all classes and get into game more heavily).
Character slots shouldn't be the focus of what they try to sell. They should focus on selling account-wide unlocks and other things designed for people who are invested into their one account.
The reasons you give is precisely why people will by character slots. Because they want to buy account wide unlocks and want they to apply to all their characters. People who make a second account to get around paying for a character slot are unlikely to spend money in any other area either. People who are willing to spend money do not need to be "tricked" or "encouraged" to spend it. They will on their own.
It actually puts an initial barrier between those that will become tempted to buy account-wide unlocks and those who will anyway.
You're assuming people can't be encouraged to part with their money once they've been given a freebie - this is not the case.
People who are reluctant at first will almost certainly just roll their alts on other accounts, making it even less likely they will ever buy the extra account-wide unlocks. Those same people could've rolled their alts on the one account and become tempted later because they already had a set-up account full of characters.
I said that the first time you get a character to level 40 on an account, you would get another character slot, not every time you reach 40. So basically if you start with (I say 3) characters, when any character on that account reaches 40, you get another character slot. That only ever happens once, bringing you up to a total of 4 character slots.
I have already spent money on this game, and I will certainly spend more in the future. I have spent TONS of money on Dungeons and dragons online (6+ years at 10-15$ a month + additional purchases of turbine points..probably over $1k). I certainly won't mind paying for character slots...but I'm looking at what is best for this game, and what will be the most fun/convenient for the players.
I'd still rather see the whole unlimited characters buy pay to unlock leveling on them past 20 setup. I think that is the best solution since you can then try out new classes etc, and your invested in the character so you won't want to just start a new account.
I rarely purchase things without a chance to try them out first (been burned too many times). I am much more likely to purchase something if I can try it first. If new classes are going to be purchasable for instance, having players be able to play them up to (I say 20, but 10 probably would work) is probably going to get quite a few more people to purchase them in the long run.
Same goes with character classes. You might not know that you really would enjoy playing a monk (if/when they are released), you wouldn't normally purchase that class, but since you can play up 10-20 levels for free...you try it. Amazingly you love the class and want to play more, so you then purchase it.
I think having 3 slots available for all players, and a 4th slot unlocked once any character on an account reaches 40 is a good starting point. From there, I think having an additional 2 character slots available for all accounts with a max level limit of 20. If you purchase a new character slot, the level 20 limit slot becomes a normal character slot and you are awarded a new lvl 20 limit slot.
So initially you get:
3 full character slots and 2 limited character slots.
Reach lvl 40 and you have 4 full character slots and 2 limited character slots.
If you purchase either of the limited character slots (making it a full slot), you gain an additional limited character slot.
You would then have 5 full character slots and 2 limited character slots.
This setup would probably make more money over all then just limiting everyone to 2 character slots and having them purchase more.
In addition to actually making more money selling character slots this way (since people will invest in characters and then want to purchase the slot), you'll also sell more account wide options due to less people making multiple accounts.
So I suggest that more money over all would be made, and players would be much more happy.
Guardians would start with 4 full and 2 limited character slots and Heroes would start with 6 full and 2 limited.
No real reason at all on launch to have more then 5 full character slots, but it future proofs them a bit.
If NO is like CO, the base superhuman system, there are plenty of reasons why people want to keep all their alts on the same account. As you progress your first character you unlock a considerable amount of things account-wide, things that might inspire you to create secondary and tertiary characters.
There is no reason that Cryptic can't do this again, except possibly due to licensing constraints.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
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You are welcome to this opinion, but it has been my experience that what I stated previously is more likely.
My opinion is based on some solid reasoning, yours is not. The very best that could be said for yours is it's just accepting status quo.
On the topic of the limited level slots, I would drop the game immediately once I hit that level limit the first time and not think twice about coming back to it.
DDO for instance has races unlock, classes unlock, better builds (more stat points), the ability to start characters at a higher level (skipping the newbie areas) etc.
All of those are rewards just for playing the game. There are still TONS of things to buy in the DDO store (classes, races etc)...and character slots as well.
As far the standard 2 character slots, I believe DDO starts with 2 for a totally free account, and then goes up to 4 if you ever purchase anything in the store (become premium). I personally like my idea of limited level character slots better then just adding 2more slots if you ever buy anything, since it really lets players get an idea of what they will be paying for, and also makes it much more likely that they will even try those other classes.
I still think it's a bad idea to only have 2 character slots available. I know they are not that expensive to purchase, but I still think you'll actually sell more if you give players a taste of what they would be getting. I think the goal should be to get as many players interested (addicted) in the game as possible. I for instance didn't really enjoy the guardian fighter class much (loved the rogue), I played through it twice (so it wasn't unplayable) but my enjoyment of the game would have been far less if I was stuck only playing the GF and didn't want to delete it since I had spent so much time leveing him up etc. What if I did that with the GuardianF and Priest? I have extra slots so I could play all 3 if I wanted, but as a real new player...I would never have gotten to experience the fun that was playing the trickster rogue. I enjoyed that class WAY more then the other two (it's going to be the character I probably concentrate on the most at launch....with the wizard (ranged for a different feel) as my secondary and Great weapon fighter as my third.
I didn't need to play past level 20 to know I really wasn't enjoying the Guardian as much, but with only 2 slots....i might have kept playing it. Others might just make another account instead (multiple accounts may have other advantages as well since they may eventually limit the invoking astral diamond bonus...by account instead of character. It also gives you twice the total amount of astral diamonds you can process per day.
I just think there are better ways to set things up then just saying "You have 2 character slots base, pay $20 a pop for more).
Mooshak,
The limited level slots are only after your initial full character slots (with no level limit).
So in other words you'd have just as many full character slots (I'm saying 3 base)...but instead of having to purchase another character slot just to try another class, you can instead play that class up to 20 before needing to purchase the slot.
Since you can actually buy zen with astral diamonds, that also means that players who are spending NO money at all, can make a more informed decision when deciding what to spend it on (both character slots and classes).
If you play for a month to make enough astral diamonds to purchase enough zen to buy 1 character class, it's probably way better for you to be able to test the classes out a bit before making a choice. Anything that keeps players from just making alternative accounts is also a good thing...as again, having more then 1 account makes it that much less likely you will buy account wide upgrades.
So in summary, you don't lose ANYTHING from having limited level character slots, they are just there to allow players to have a chance to test out the other classes...without having to delete their current high level characters first.
Giving 2 slots standard is more then fair for a F2P game. Want more buy more, and upping the standard of 2 slots will do nothing but reduce profits.
Character is what a man is in the dark
I explained why this is not the case. If you're going to answer the least you could do is properly read through the comment you're responding to, and use some reasoning to back your position.
The problem with where you're coming from, though, is that most people won't make multiple accounts just to save five bucks on a character slot.
Besides, if people think that a game is worth not only having more than two characters, but actually going through all the effort to not only make multiple accounts, but remember what characters are on what account, who has what and where, they should cough up some dough.
Demanding more free character slots in a free game is pretty underhanded, childish, selfish and just plain cheap.
Lots of people will make extra accounts to avoid paying for more lots, just to try out the classes - the cost of character slots will modify the percentage of people who circumvent paying for those slots by rolling alts on extra accounts.
If character slots are reasonably priced then it shouldn't be an issue for all but the cheapest of cheapskates, however if the slots are oddly priced then it will be an issue for many more people - and this is when it becomes a matter of whether or not making people buy slots above the 2 standard is actually causing them to lose more money than they could otherwise gain by encouraging people to keep all characters on the one account, then selling account-wide unlocks for various things to these people once they're properly invested in game.
The point is, they should be focusing on selling account-wide unlocks, rather than trying to sell character slots, which rely on people becoming appropriately invested in the game. People will be less invested where the account unlocks only apply to 2 characters at a time, because they'd previously spread their characters out across several accounts while trying each class out in their first dalliance with the game.
There are many more worthwhile things to sell people than character slots. The smarter move is to include several slots to begin with, as it allows people to try more characters which means they've probably spent more time in the game...becoming more attached to the game with each passing hour. This is when you hit them with things they can add to their account to make the game even nicer for them.
The amount of money made by F2P games - almost all of which restrict people to just two character slots for free - suggests that far more people are willing to drop the money for a character slot. Otherwise, they wouldn't offer it.
Now you're arguing based on info you don't have. That's never a good place to be arguing from.
And what, may I ask, gives you the idea that there won't be account-wide unlocks? STO has them. I believe CO has them. I've been more than willing to point out Cryptic's history when it comes to things I don't like, and I'm just as willing to do so with this, too - their own C-store history suggests there will be more than a few account-wide unlocks.
I agree completely. However, there's absolutely no reason to believe that character slots are the only things people will buy in the C-store.
Considering my first point - that all F2P games make a lot of money on character slots while restricting people to just two - this isn't anywhere near accurate.
The only people who'd buy slots when there are plenty to begin with are alt-o-holics. Most MMO players aren't alt-o-holics. Most MMO players will be fine with just two slots to begin with, and of the ones that aren't, most would be fine with buying a slot or two.
You seem to be slightly confused, I said there would be account wide unlocks.
The second point I seem to have to restate is - they should be focusing on selling the account-wide unlocks to people rather than focusing on selling people a way to invest into game in first place (character slots), the people being more likely to buy them if they've got more than two characters already raised on the one account.
Not much point continuing a discussion with you, as you don't seem to be able to interpret my writing very easily.
I would like bank slots, bags, stuff like that account wide unlocks that would be awsome. I have always capped out my allowed amount of toon slots in every mmo i've played. Usually they allow 8 or so. I max out a Tank, Healer, Range and Melee dps and capped tradeskills to the MAX! I do this for the guild.
Anyway... I will just wait to see what they give us and go from there. Have no problems buying character slots. Just hope they not crazy like 20dollars or something.
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