i agree 100% on the second point if you look at the skills (atleast for trickster rogue) basically you have 4 encounter skills and 3 at will skill imo everyone will go with (flurry & shuriken for at will) but honestly its only like 4 encounter skills and everything else is just the same skills but stronger versions i do not agree with there being a need for more hotkeys because at lvl 20 you unlock the second daily slot making for a total of 6 skills to use if you use your at will nicely those dailies can be done at almost every if not every other group of mobs you fight. i think ive left my main topic and went off into a bit of a rant but basically i think there needs to be more diversity into the encounter skills so that theres more diversity overall other than that im fine how the class has played for me.
Yes, they have confirmed game pads so far. No clue about xbox styled controllers.
It was a bit buggy with my Xbox controller (razer Onza), where after every instance you had to hit "enter" twice to not scroll the Z axis chat box, but overall it rocked for a beta with controller support! I verified my son's logitech PC gamepad worked as well. It took a while to get over the cursorless FPS "Bullseye" and alt key suspend, but with everything it just takes a while to get used to the dynamic of their UI. My only complaint was the large amount of instancing, which made a horse rather useless, as what do you need a horse for if large expansive open areas are uncommon? I look forward to seeing if that was just for the weekend "beta playground", and not what the final product reveals. I loved the fact that the areas and terain weren't cookie-cutter flat, and drab. The sewers looked like they might actually have function as a sewer, (including trash and the like) and the war zones actually looked like a seige had been ongoing for some time with grass growing in bombed out homes, dirt paths which looked rough from troop movement and such, etc... The caves looked realistic unlike most MMO's, with obtuce footpaths, and the like. Overall, I give them a thumbs up for having a great amount of potential, but it does need refining.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No I haven't played the game. As I said, my experience with the game is hours and hours of reading here, watching streams and promo vids from industry folks.
I think my opinions are valid and appropriate for this atmosphere. I've been a hardcore gamer for over 10 yrs in the MMO world. Ran top pvp/progression guilds in nearly 15 games, and have beta tested most of them. Two of those games with the Cryptic stamp on them. I think I have enough experience to be able to look at a game in the capacity I have briefed and form a conclusive opinion on its current state.
Honestly, I'm not trolling. I want to be fully invested in this game, otherwise I wouldn't waste the bandwidth.
The points I brought up are pretty tame and negotiable. The first two articles have quick fixes. I'm hoping the ink hasn't dried and these issues can and will be looked over again.
How do I put this...
Your opinions are always appreciated,
but not always accurate if you don't know the actual gameplay. A lot of people who "speculated" on gameplay like you wrote a lot differently later from their initial "conclusions." Not saying they were the same or different than yours, but their "insight" was based on their perception on what they knew even after what they saw but not what they played.
Thus I respectfully appreciate the feedback, but doubt you have the right perspetive...
Especially when it comes to th 4e setup combined with the action setup of this SPECIFIC game. More on screen powers would literally make this game not work well.
And the claustrophobic comment has NEVER been mentioned on the 12 pages I have read on people that actually played it for the last two days for the Beta test weekend.Dizzy, nauseous from a couple sure, but never claustrophobic.
Respectfully these comments are from those outside looking in, no matter what the experience. As a matter of fact, I fear the "veterans" who are set in looking for certain things whether they realize it or not. I am a good example first brought in kicking and screaming to 4e as it was "wrong" of course...mistake #1. Then my outcry on not "faithfully" following 4e conversion to MMO...wow that would have failed big time. Mistake number two. Then how I thought it would be even with reviewing all videos for months then years especially for things like my FAQ. Even I was wrong once I first played it. As "expert" as I became.
So even I didn't and D&D 34+ years with MMO's around 20+ depending on "what you call MMO" more or less.
Again, my experience isn't yours, but I can say from reading (and even removing) some stuff based on "absolutely certain" predictions people just don't know what it is until they try it. I felt your posting was that speculation, but I took the time to confirm and make sure.
All I ask for you to do is that before being "likely certain."
The point is this: Cryptic is almost there. I realize this is still closed beta. Lots can change. But I saw an interview where a developer said "they don't need everything at launch". I disagree. Somethings are staples for launch. These, IMO, are some of them.
Developers who say this generally end up correcting themselves in retrospective interviews a couple of years after launch.
Personally I think the game looks great so far, it's just the perspective above that I'm commenting on. If they're holding back on the basis that it's an MMORPG with continuing development, then they may or may not need to reevaluate these assumptions. Assumptions that have everything to do with what they know is coming down the pipeline, but absolutely nothing to do with initial impressions of the game at launch that will paint it in a certain light across the industry for years to come.
I actually think Jack Emmert would agree with everything I just typed.
_
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
but not always accurate if you don't know the actual gameplay. A lot of people who "speculated" on gameplay like you wrote a lot differently later from their initial "conclusions." Not saying they were the same or different than yours, but their "insight" was based on their perception on what they knew even after what they saw but not what they played.
His insight is correct on point 1, and doesn't require playing the game if you've watched the videos. Heck, It's even a problem I've had with the game design. Leveling on rails, improve some stuff with talents, but no different or new abilities to be chosen. There's not even an illusion of choice (Choose power 1, 2 or 3, but by level thirty you'll have power 1,2 and 3) which might help.
As far as point 2, that's honestly an opinion more than anything. 8 powers being not enough or repetitive doesn't require play if you watch the 2+ hours each news source put up on livestream.
As to how the world "feels", that's the one point where there's validity to your argument. To get the "feel" of any game world, you have to be using the client and roam around. He may not change his mind, but yeah, how immense or small or whatever is really a perception a video can't grant you. In 20+ years of gaming, no video or screenshot or anything give you the ambiance or feeling of how a world is put together. It's something you have to experience.
0
silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
edited February 2013
Limited character building: I agree that the choices at launch will be somewhat limited. But, as long as they release a steady stream of classes the options will get better and better. And this is something they know that they absolutely MUST do. The biggest unknown here is with their approach of these separate "classes" that are really just build frameworks for a particular core class. Instead of having Fighter with a tree for Guardian and a tree for Great Weapon they built each one as a complete class. When there are finally lots of these variant classes it will be great. This approach has already shown that it can produce great diversity. The difference between the two already existing types of Fighters is much greater than just a few choices from a tree. They are built differently from the ground up. So, eventually this can lead to much more functional diversity. But I would think that building out a complete class progression, adding and re-tagging gear for the new class, etc. will be a big job that may slow down the pace of releasing these classes.
Too little active skills: I completely disagree with this one. In games with multiple expansive hotbars like WoW I found that either many abilities sat unused, or managing them was a task too big to handle while still paying attention to the screen. I wound up focusing on 3 or 4 abilities and ignoring the rest anyway. Just look at the large number of mods available that focused on dynamically rearranging your hotbars to situationally help you get to the ability you needed. There is no way to maintain the fast action feel of this game with many more abilities to manage. We have 2 At-Wills, 2 Dailies, 3 Encounter Powers, the class special ability, the shift utility power, and 3 item hotkey slots. That's 12. Considering how easy it is to visit a campfire or drop a portable altar to rearrange your power choices that is more than enough in my opinion. In fact, the limited power slots actually helps deal with the diversity issue from your first point. By level 20, my Rogue already had more powers than he could slot and they were all still useful and meaningful choices. Powers unlocked at lower levels were not overshadowed or made obsolete by newer unlocks. Since I can only slot 7 choices, my choices may be very different from someone else's. It already appears to be possible, for example, to focus a Trickster Rogue on blade attacks, shadow powers, or even ranged attacks.
Claustrophobic environment: The large open world in games like WoW is really an awesome thing to explore. Once. After the first run through an area travel becomes a time sink, an inconvenience, and just plain not fun. The NW world felt plenty big enough to me in my limited travels so far. As far as instancing goes, I agree that having to switch zones is damaging to immersion. But, otherwise, I like instanced games. They tend to be much more stable and can handle a much much larger number of players on a given shard. I do hope that they have some truly huge zones to explore. And ways to move around them more quickly after the novelty wears off. After all, they can make an instance as big as they want to. From a technology standpoint those huge open continents in WoW are really just big instances. They are just locked down to one copy each.
We want customization, where you can figure out how to maximize your DPS by using the proper skill rotations.
So everyone of the same class must use the same rotation? How is that customization?
No, we do NOT want that! Also, "customization" and "rotations" are contradictory and mutually exclusive.
So everyone of the same class must use the same rotation? How is that customization?
No, we do NOT want that! Also, "customization" and "rotations" are contradictory and mutually exclusive.
That's a very good point. Whenever there are multiple skills that do mostly the same thing (simple direct damage for instance) there will ALWAYS be a preferred skill over another. Things like cool downs on the skills only cause you to put the second best skill in the "rotation" because you can't do the best skill all the time. In WoW, most of the rotations were priority lists. e.g.:
1. Are any of my powerful "proc" abilities procc'd? If yes, hit the highest damage one, start over
2. Are any of my powerful cool down ability off cool down? If yes, hit the highest damage one, start over
3. Use my spammable ability
Now there are obviously situational abilities like CC and maybe there's an ability that's only useful as an opener, but probably 90% of the time in battle was spent doing a rotation not very different from above.
Now that's not ONLY a side effect of having many abilities, but the more abilities that you have the more likely there are to be overlaps. The same can happen with few abilities if they don't differentiate themselves; for example if you always want to hit your encounter powers when they're off cool down, you'll end up with a similar monotonous experience to what I described above.
Too little active skills: I completely disagree with this one. In games with multiple expansive hotbars like WoW I found that either many abilities sat unused, or managing them was a task too big to handle while still paying attention to the screen. I wound up focusing on 3 or 4 abilities and ignoring the rest anyway. Just look at the large number of mods available that focused on dynamically rearranging your hotbars to situationally help you get to the ability you needed. There is no way to maintain the fast action feel of this game with many more abilities to manage. We have 2 At-Wills, 2 Dailies, 3 Encounter Powers, the class special ability, the shift utility power, and 3 item hotkey slots. That's 12. Considering how easy it is to visit a campfire or drop a portable altar to rearrange your power choices that is more than enough in my opinion. In fact, the limited power slots actually helps deal with the diversity issue from your first point. By level 20, my Rogue already had more powers than he could slot and they were all still useful and meaningful choices. Powers unlocked at lower levels were not overshadowed or made obsolete by newer unlocks. Since I can only slot 7 choices, my choices may be very different from someone else's. It already appears to be possible, for example, to focus a Trickster Rogue on blade attacks, shadow powers, or even ranged attacks.
Let's go over the buttons:
-2 "At-wills"
-3 "Encounter abilities": 10-20 cds each
-1 "Defensive move"
-2 "Daily powers": mutually exclusive use
-3 "Consumable slots"
Ok, so a player is going to try to form some semblance of a rotation with the 1st three items. Daily powers can be used at most every 2-3 groups from what reviews have said, and from just watching the rate at which the d20 fills. And that's 2-3 group of 6 man content using aoe attacks. Say we have 2 daily powers available to choose from is not relevant to my point. You don't get to use both powers when you've capped daily power. So in my mind that's one situation button. Consumable slots? If you think those are viable as a skill, then I suggest you find a new pastime, lol. Consumables are situational too. So in reality, you'll be cycling 6 buttons for 90% of your combat.
A large assortment of at-wills and encounter powers will remedy some of this. But shorter cds for encounter skills will be essential. I haven't seen the cds on racial abilities but I'm assuming they will have very long cds too. The question is, where will they be slotted?
NW-DT4OV7EXH
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
That's a very good point. Whenever there are multiple skills that do mostly the same thing (simple direct damage for instance) there will ALWAYS be a preferred skill over another. Things like cool downs on the skills only cause you to put the second best skill in the "rotation" because you can't do the best skill all the time. In WoW, most of the rotations were priority lists. e.g.:
1. Are any of my powerful "proc" abilities procc'd? If yes, hit the highest damage one, start over
2. Are any of my powerful cool down ability off cool down? If yes, hit the highest damage one, start over
3. Use my spammable ability
Now there are obviously situational abilities like CC and maybe there's an ability that's only useful as an opener, but probably 90% of the time in battle was spent doing a rotation not very different from above.
Now that's not ONLY a side effect of having many abilities, but the more abilities that you have the more likely there are to be overlaps. The same can happen with few abilities if they don't differentiate themselves; for example if you always want to hit your encounter powers when they're off cool down, you'll end up with a similar monotonous experience to what I described above.
I don't really agree. There are lots of skills that are equally useful in MMOs that come in the form for cds and attacks. It isn't always slotting your top dmg attack. Some attacks with 2ndry effects like debuffs, buffs, life/manataps, dots, movement, CC, etc can be high value to your toon. It depends on how the class is designed. Trivializing pecking order is bad.
NW-DT4OV7EXH
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
but not always accurate if you don't know the actual gameplay. A lot of people who "speculated" on gameplay like you wrote a lot differently later from their initial "conclusions." Not saying they were the same or different than yours, but their "insight" was based on their perception on what they knew even after what they saw but not what they played.
Thus I respectfully appreciate the feedback, but doubt you have the right perspetive...
Especially when it comes to th 4e setup combined with the action setup of this SPECIFIC game. More on screen powers would literally make this game not work well.
I've played games with lack of buttons to push(GW2, TSW, and a slew of single player games). I know the set up. I don't need to play the game to see that. Those games put me to sleep after the first week of watching the same tired animations, from the same 3-5 skills, from nearly a quarter of the population. Its mind boggling that anyone would support having less option, rather than more options. I hate to see an iconic IP/franchise be dumbed down for mass consumption. That just my opinion. I don't know exactly where you stand but I hope you can see my point.
And the claustrophobic comment has NEVER been mentioned on the 12 pages I have read on people that actually played it for the last two days for the Beta test weekend.Dizzy, nauseous from a couple sure, but never claustrophobic.
I saw at least 2 posts in this thread alone from beta testers with the same concern. Some people are ok with a game with one central player hub and a sprinkling of satellites that you can instantly travel to. I personally don't like moving from one "snow-globe" to another. Cryptic has done it in every game they've pushed out to date. I know their model. I realize once you get to the satellite areas they open up a bit. But every video I've seen felt like a game on rails.
Respectfully these comments are from those outside looking in, no matter what the experience. As a matter of fact, I fear the "veterans" who are set in looking for certain things whether they realize it or not. I am a good example first brought in kicking and screaming to 4e as it was "wrong" of course...mistake #1. Then my outcry on not "faithfully" following 4e conversion to MMO...wow that would have failed big time. Mistake number two. Then how I thought it would be even with reviewing all videos for months then years especially for things like my FAQ. Even I was wrong once I first played it. As "expert" as I became.
So even I didn't and D&D 34+ years with MMO's around 20+ depending on "what you call MMO" more or less.
Again, my experience isn't yours, but I can say from reading (and even removing) some stuff based on "absolutely certain" predictions people just don't know what it is until they try it. I felt your posting was that speculation, but I took the time to confirm and make sure.
All I ask for you to do is that before being "likely certain."
Thanks.
I hate to disagree, with you but experience is everything. I know what has worked in MMO's and I know what has doomed MMO's. I know why members of my guild quit games and I know what makes them lose sleep and miss work. I did imply a sort of disclaimer to my original post. People can read into it the way they like.
Ultimately, I want to see this game succeed.
NW-DT4OV7EXH
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
0
silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
This is a good example of what truth was trying to get at. A lot of your judgements are made without the benefit of having played the game. You forget the class special ability I mentioned. This is bound to the Tab key and essentially acts as a different mode. It enhances, but sometimes also greatly alters the functionality of many powers. For example, I believe Stealth adds a stun component to one of the Trickster Rogue encounter powers but Channel Divinity converts the Devoted Cleric's At-Wills to a continuous stream of damage (left click) or healing (right click). This gives us a few more options.
Ok, so a player is going to try to form some semblance of a rotation with the 1st three items.
The point is not to build a boring "rotation". The point is to have a real feel of action combat. On all three classes, I never fell into a routine like that and I never lacked something to actually do. With each group of mobs I was able to assess the situation and use the ability I wanted to. I was able to make the decision quickly and the choices made the combats interesting and different. Using a rotation only requires enough knowledge to lay out your rotation and then the skill to execute the timing correctly. Real action combat like Neverwinter requires much more skill than that and feels much more involving. From your writing, it sounds like that challenge is something you would enjoy.
Daily powers can be used at most every 2-3 groups from what reviews have said, and from just watching the rate at which the d20 fills. And that's 2-3 group of 6 man content using aoe attacks. Say we have 2 daily powers available to choose from is not relevant to my point. You don't get to use both powers when you've capped daily power. So in my mind that's one situation button. Consumable slots? If you think those are viable as a skill, then I suggest you find a new pastime, lol. Consumables are situational too. So in reality, you'll be cycling 6 buttons for 90% of your combat.
Every 2-3 groups for Dailies is about right for group play for most characters. But you have ways to build your character through feats and gear to increase this rate. It also depends entirely on how you play your character. By level 20, my Trickster Rogue had his daily available on just about every single group of mobs. This took a concentrated effort on my part to create and use combat advantage through positioning and powers. I imagine that would not have been the case for me in a group as others would have been taking out targets before I could milk some action points off of them. But a devoted Cleric in a group who concentrates on healing and builds for it should be able to refill their action points completely on any level appropriate group containing a lieutenant type mini-boss. And I really like the fact that the action point mechanic functions differently depending on the character class, group dynamics and your choices and playstyle.
A large assortment of at-wills and encounter powers will remedy some of this. But shorter cds for encounter skills will be essential. I haven't seen the cds on racial abilities but I'm assuming they will have very long cds too. The question is, where will they be slotted?
Lastly, the cooldowns are not really all that long. You can use gear and slotted enchantments and possibly even feats to shorten them. I didn't really look for feats for this because I had other plans for those. My Trickster Rogue had Encounter Powers slotted with cooldowns in the 6 second range after factoring in his Recovery stat. Never once in all my playtime did I feel I was waiting for a cooldown so that I had something to do.
As far as the racial abilities I played a Human, Half-elf and Dwarf and did not have any clickable racial powers so I am not sure where they would slot. It is possible that none of them are clickable but just procs. I think I would prrefer this.
I hope you play in the open beta and really give it a try. I will be interested to see what you have to say then.
You either copied someone else's post for ur "imo" section or ur reposting it, cus i saw someone else complaining about the same thing and a lot of " after watching videos" or " from reading from other users" ...so much hands on experience to be used when complaining...try the game out first ffs
You either copied someone else's post for ur "imo" section or ur reposting it, cus i saw someone else complaining about the same thing and a lot of " after watching videos" or " from reading from other users" ...so much hands on experience to be used when complaining...try the game out first ffs
Thanks for your brilliant insight and contribution.
NW-DT4OV7EXH
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
This is a good example of what truth was trying to get at. A lot of your judgements are made without the benefit of having played the game. You forget the class special ability I mentioned. This is bound to the Tab key and essentially acts as a different mode. It enhances, but sometimes also greatly alters the functionality of many powers. For example, I believe Stealth adds a stun component to one of the Trickster Rogue encounter powers but Channel Divinity converts the Devoted Cleric's At-Wills to a continuous stream of damage (left click) or healing (right click). This gives us a few more options.
The point is not to build a boring "rotation". The point is to have a real feel of action combat. On all three classes, I never fell into a routine like that and I never lacked something to actually do. With each group of mobs I was able to assess the situation and use the ability I wanted to. I was able to make the decision quickly and the choices made the combats interesting and different. Using a rotation only requires enough knowledge to lay out your rotation and then the skill to execute the timing correctly. Real action combat like Neverwinter requires much more skill than that and feels much more involving. From your writing, it sounds like that challenge is something you would enjoy.
Every 2-3 groups for Dailies is about right for group play for most characters. But you have ways to build your character through feats and gear to increase this rate. It also depends entirely on how you play your character. By level 20, my Trickster Rogue had his daily available on just about every single group of mobs. This took a concentrated effort on my part to create and use combat advantage through positioning and powers. I imagine that would not have been the case for me in a group as others would have been taking out targets before I could milk some action points off of them. But a devoted Cleric in a group who concentrates on healing and builds for it should be able to refill their action points completely on any level appropriate group containing a lieutenant type mini-boss. And I really like the fact that the action point mechanic functions differently depending on the character class, group dynamics and your choices and playstyle.
Lastly, the cooldowns are not really all that long. You can use gear and slotted enchantments and possibly even feats to shorten them. I didn't really look for feats for this because I had other plans for those. My Trickster Rogue had Encounter Powers slotted with cooldowns in the 6 second range after factoring in his Recovery stat. Never once in all my playtime did I feel I was waiting for a cooldown so that I had something to do.
As far as the racial abilities I played a Human, Half-elf and Dwarf and did not have any clickable racial powers so I am not sure where they would slot. It is possible that none of them are clickable but just procs. I think I would prrefer this.
I hope you play in the open beta and really give it a try. I will be interested to see what you have to say then.
Now this is the most illuminating post in this thread I've read. Somebody who finally got to the heart of my plight.
I did forget about the class specific skills. It is encouraging to know that we will have options to lower the cds on skills/abilities/powers, including the dailies. Shedding light on my 2nd bullet point puts things into a new perspective for me.
NW-DT4OV7EXH
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
Comments
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It was a bit buggy with my Xbox controller (razer Onza), where after every instance you had to hit "enter" twice to not scroll the Z axis chat box, but overall it rocked for a beta with controller support! I verified my son's logitech PC gamepad worked as well. It took a while to get over the cursorless FPS "Bullseye" and alt key suspend, but with everything it just takes a while to get used to the dynamic of their UI. My only complaint was the large amount of instancing, which made a horse rather useless, as what do you need a horse for if large expansive open areas are uncommon? I look forward to seeing if that was just for the weekend "beta playground", and not what the final product reveals. I loved the fact that the areas and terain weren't cookie-cutter flat, and drab. The sewers looked like they might actually have function as a sewer, (including trash and the like) and the war zones actually looked like a seige had been ongoing for some time with grass growing in bombed out homes, dirt paths which looked rough from troop movement and such, etc... The caves looked realistic unlike most MMO's, with obtuce footpaths, and the like. Overall, I give them a thumbs up for having a great amount of potential, but it does need refining.
How do I put this...
Your opinions are always appreciated,
but not always accurate if you don't know the actual gameplay. A lot of people who "speculated" on gameplay like you wrote a lot differently later from their initial "conclusions." Not saying they were the same or different than yours, but their "insight" was based on their perception on what they knew even after what they saw but not what they played.
Thus I respectfully appreciate the feedback, but doubt you have the right perspetive...
Especially when it comes to th 4e setup combined with the action setup of this SPECIFIC game. More on screen powers would literally make this game not work well.
And the claustrophobic comment has NEVER been mentioned on the 12 pages I have read on people that actually played it for the last two days for the Beta test weekend.Dizzy, nauseous from a couple sure, but never claustrophobic.
Respectfully these comments are from those outside looking in, no matter what the experience. As a matter of fact, I fear the "veterans" who are set in looking for certain things whether they realize it or not. I am a good example first brought in kicking and screaming to 4e as it was "wrong" of course...mistake #1. Then my outcry on not "faithfully" following 4e conversion to MMO...wow that would have failed big time. Mistake number two. Then how I thought it would be even with reviewing all videos for months then years especially for things like my FAQ. Even I was wrong once I first played it. As "expert" as I became.
So even I didn't and D&D 34+ years with MMO's around 20+ depending on "what you call MMO" more or less.
Again, my experience isn't yours, but I can say from reading (and even removing) some stuff based on "absolutely certain" predictions people just don't know what it is until they try it. I felt your posting was that speculation, but I took the time to confirm and make sure.
All I ask for you to do is that before being "likely certain."
Thanks.
Developers who say this generally end up correcting themselves in retrospective interviews a couple of years after launch.
Personally I think the game looks great so far, it's just the perspective above that I'm commenting on. If they're holding back on the basis that it's an MMORPG with continuing development, then they may or may not need to reevaluate these assumptions. Assumptions that have everything to do with what they know is coming down the pipeline, but absolutely nothing to do with initial impressions of the game at launch that will paint it in a certain light across the industry for years to come.
I actually think Jack Emmert would agree with everything I just typed.
[SIGPIC]Captain Electric and the Sapien Spider[/SIGPIC]
"YES, PLEASE"
Vote YES for the Foundry in Champions Online.
@Captain-Electric | CoH/Virtue veteran | Proud new Champion
His insight is correct on point 1, and doesn't require playing the game if you've watched the videos. Heck, It's even a problem I've had with the game design. Leveling on rails, improve some stuff with talents, but no different or new abilities to be chosen. There's not even an illusion of choice (Choose power 1, 2 or 3, but by level thirty you'll have power 1,2 and 3) which might help.
As far as point 2, that's honestly an opinion more than anything. 8 powers being not enough or repetitive doesn't require play if you watch the 2+ hours each news source put up on livestream.
As to how the world "feels", that's the one point where there's validity to your argument. To get the "feel" of any game world, you have to be using the client and roam around. He may not change his mind, but yeah, how immense or small or whatever is really a perception a video can't grant you. In 20+ years of gaming, no video or screenshot or anything give you the ambiance or feeling of how a world is put together. It's something you have to experience.
Too little active skills: I completely disagree with this one. In games with multiple expansive hotbars like WoW I found that either many abilities sat unused, or managing them was a task too big to handle while still paying attention to the screen. I wound up focusing on 3 or 4 abilities and ignoring the rest anyway. Just look at the large number of mods available that focused on dynamically rearranging your hotbars to situationally help you get to the ability you needed. There is no way to maintain the fast action feel of this game with many more abilities to manage. We have 2 At-Wills, 2 Dailies, 3 Encounter Powers, the class special ability, the shift utility power, and 3 item hotkey slots. That's 12. Considering how easy it is to visit a campfire or drop a portable altar to rearrange your power choices that is more than enough in my opinion. In fact, the limited power slots actually helps deal with the diversity issue from your first point. By level 20, my Rogue already had more powers than he could slot and they were all still useful and meaningful choices. Powers unlocked at lower levels were not overshadowed or made obsolete by newer unlocks. Since I can only slot 7 choices, my choices may be very different from someone else's. It already appears to be possible, for example, to focus a Trickster Rogue on blade attacks, shadow powers, or even ranged attacks.
Claustrophobic environment: The large open world in games like WoW is really an awesome thing to explore. Once. After the first run through an area travel becomes a time sink, an inconvenience, and just plain not fun. The NW world felt plenty big enough to me in my limited travels so far. As far as instancing goes, I agree that having to switch zones is damaging to immersion. But, otherwise, I like instanced games. They tend to be much more stable and can handle a much much larger number of players on a given shard. I do hope that they have some truly huge zones to explore. And ways to move around them more quickly after the novelty wears off. After all, they can make an instance as big as they want to. From a technology standpoint those huge open continents in WoW are really just big instances. They are just locked down to one copy each.
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No, we do NOT want that! Also, "customization" and "rotations" are contradictory and mutually exclusive.
That's a very good point. Whenever there are multiple skills that do mostly the same thing (simple direct damage for instance) there will ALWAYS be a preferred skill over another. Things like cool downs on the skills only cause you to put the second best skill in the "rotation" because you can't do the best skill all the time. In WoW, most of the rotations were priority lists. e.g.:
1. Are any of my powerful "proc" abilities procc'd? If yes, hit the highest damage one, start over
2. Are any of my powerful cool down ability off cool down? If yes, hit the highest damage one, start over
3. Use my spammable ability
Now there are obviously situational abilities like CC and maybe there's an ability that's only useful as an opener, but probably 90% of the time in battle was spent doing a rotation not very different from above.
Now that's not ONLY a side effect of having many abilities, but the more abilities that you have the more likely there are to be overlaps. The same can happen with few abilities if they don't differentiate themselves; for example if you always want to hit your encounter powers when they're off cool down, you'll end up with a similar monotonous experience to what I described above.
Let's go over the buttons:
-2 "At-wills"
-3 "Encounter abilities": 10-20 cds each
-1 "Defensive move"
-2 "Daily powers": mutually exclusive use
-3 "Consumable slots"
Ok, so a player is going to try to form some semblance of a rotation with the 1st three items. Daily powers can be used at most every 2-3 groups from what reviews have said, and from just watching the rate at which the d20 fills. And that's 2-3 group of 6 man content using aoe attacks. Say we have 2 daily powers available to choose from is not relevant to my point. You don't get to use both powers when you've capped daily power. So in my mind that's one situation button. Consumable slots? If you think those are viable as a skill, then I suggest you find a new pastime, lol. Consumables are situational too. So in reality, you'll be cycling 6 buttons for 90% of your combat.
A large assortment of at-wills and encounter powers will remedy some of this. But shorter cds for encounter skills will be essential. I haven't seen the cds on racial abilities but I'm assuming they will have very long cds too. The question is, where will they be slotted?
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
I don't really agree. There are lots of skills that are equally useful in MMOs that come in the form for cds and attacks. It isn't always slotting your top dmg attack. Some attacks with 2ndry effects like debuffs, buffs, life/manataps, dots, movement, CC, etc can be high value to your toon. It depends on how the class is designed. Trivializing pecking order is bad.
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
I've played games with lack of buttons to push(GW2, TSW, and a slew of single player games). I know the set up. I don't need to play the game to see that. Those games put me to sleep after the first week of watching the same tired animations, from the same 3-5 skills, from nearly a quarter of the population. Its mind boggling that anyone would support having less option, rather than more options. I hate to see an iconic IP/franchise be dumbed down for mass consumption. That just my opinion. I don't know exactly where you stand but I hope you can see my point.
I saw at least 2 posts in this thread alone from beta testers with the same concern. Some people are ok with a game with one central player hub and a sprinkling of satellites that you can instantly travel to. I personally don't like moving from one "snow-globe" to another. Cryptic has done it in every game they've pushed out to date. I know their model. I realize once you get to the satellite areas they open up a bit. But every video I've seen felt like a game on rails.
I hate to disagree, with you but experience is everything. I know what has worked in MMO's and I know what has doomed MMO's. I know why members of my guild quit games and I know what makes them lose sleep and miss work. I did imply a sort of disclaimer to my original post. People can read into it the way they like.
Ultimately, I want to see this game succeed.
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
The point is not to build a boring "rotation". The point is to have a real feel of action combat. On all three classes, I never fell into a routine like that and I never lacked something to actually do. With each group of mobs I was able to assess the situation and use the ability I wanted to. I was able to make the decision quickly and the choices made the combats interesting and different. Using a rotation only requires enough knowledge to lay out your rotation and then the skill to execute the timing correctly. Real action combat like Neverwinter requires much more skill than that and feels much more involving. From your writing, it sounds like that challenge is something you would enjoy.
Every 2-3 groups for Dailies is about right for group play for most characters. But you have ways to build your character through feats and gear to increase this rate. It also depends entirely on how you play your character. By level 20, my Trickster Rogue had his daily available on just about every single group of mobs. This took a concentrated effort on my part to create and use combat advantage through positioning and powers. I imagine that would not have been the case for me in a group as others would have been taking out targets before I could milk some action points off of them. But a devoted Cleric in a group who concentrates on healing and builds for it should be able to refill their action points completely on any level appropriate group containing a lieutenant type mini-boss. And I really like the fact that the action point mechanic functions differently depending on the character class, group dynamics and your choices and playstyle.
Lastly, the cooldowns are not really all that long. You can use gear and slotted enchantments and possibly even feats to shorten them. I didn't really look for feats for this because I had other plans for those. My Trickster Rogue had Encounter Powers slotted with cooldowns in the 6 second range after factoring in his Recovery stat. Never once in all my playtime did I feel I was waiting for a cooldown so that I had something to do.
As far as the racial abilities I played a Human, Half-elf and Dwarf and did not have any clickable racial powers so I am not sure where they would slot. It is possible that none of them are clickable but just procs. I think I would prrefer this.
I hope you play in the open beta and really give it a try. I will be interested to see what you have to say then.
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Thanks for your brilliant insight and contribution.
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
Now this is the most illuminating post in this thread I've read. Somebody who finally got to the heart of my plight.
I did forget about the class specific skills. It is encouraging to know that we will have options to lower the cds on skills/abilities/powers, including the dailies. Shedding light on my 2nd bullet point puts things into a new perspective for me.
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.