Glaring issues with the game so far...

nyghoma

I just want to start off saying there's a lot I like from what I have seen so far, but patting Cryptic on the back isn't going to address my issues. This game has huge potential. Action MMO's are the future. So since this game is growing on me from all the streams and vids I've seen, I'd like to point out stuff that needs to be changed.

• Limited character building: Just from what I've been reading from official responses and seen in videos, the character customization for powers/skills/abilities seems limited. Diversity is key. I haven't seen the Paragon paths but just looking at the initial framework, I'm praying its not a preview of what's to come. Players need to be a snowflake. Not cookie cutters. I may be 100% wrong on this since I haven't seen the higher level progression on the character sheet, but I think its a worthy concern. People want depth. Five classes at launch seems narrow. If these classes have a wide range of options beyond their initial layout through the Paragon system then it could work out.
  
  
• Too little active skills: First off, I like a trim UI along with abilities. BUT, I think Cryptic went off the deep end. Two "at-wills", and 3 "encounter" cool downs, is a little short. Watching streams/videos demonstrated how monotonous combat is. I'm fine with the dailies. I understand why there's only 2 at-wills, b/c it ties into the mouse mechanic design. I would be more at ease if they added one or two more active encounter powers to your hotbar, AND put them on a shorter cd. From the looks of it most of the cds have a minimum 10 sec cd, but average in the 14-16 sec range. I read in the FAQ they were supposed to be on a 6-12 sec cd, but I've seen it different so far. Shorter cds will make the combat more interesting and exciting.
  
  
• Claustrophobic environment: I've played 2 Cryptic games in the past, CoV and CO. I know how corralled and segregated their worlds can be. Over-instancing breaks immersion. I remember one of the major reason I quit SWTOR was b/c you got to a point where there was nothing left to do other than loiter the space station, and queue for pvp. That sucked. It was GW all over again. We didn't have a reason to go out in the world and interact with the beautiful landscapes. This problem can be fixed though. Having a large, robust end-game open world zone with dailies, world bosses, dynamic events, etc., would satisfy me. I'm not concerned with the low-level areas too much. They are just a part of the journey, not the destination.

The point is this: Cryptic is almost there. I realize this is still closed beta. Lots can change. But I saw an interview where a developer said "they don't need everything at launch". I disagree. Somethings are staples for launch. These, IMO, are some of them.


/rantoff

ruinedmirage

With regards to the second issue, has there been any word on controller adaptation in beta yet? Has anyone tried it out? Does it work? I know it inevitably will be available, but I was just curious on any immediate feedback. 3rd person action games tend to work best with controllers, in my opinion. Tablets for isometric/point and click, and mouse and keyboard for 1st person.

nyghoma

Yes, they have confirmed game pads so far. No clue about xbox styled controllers.

muzrub333

nyghoma wrote: »

Yes, they have confirmed game pads so far. No clue about xbox styled controllers.

In a live stream by one of the Massively peeps, it was shown that there is an Xbox controller choice. Not sure if it's live for beta, but it would be nice if one of the beta crew would report on that.

ysil6969

My biggest concern is lack of class customization. Especially with the release of the cleric video. Every cleric I play is generally a melee battle cleric, the one in the video looks more like a caster to me. Are we going to have the option of going melee with a cleric if we roll one? Or are we going to be forced into aforementioned cookie cutter classes?

And I have to disagree about low levels being unimportant because their part of the journey not the destination. I don't read a book not caring about the first chapters as long as the end works out.

mrfoxx

yep the diversity is an issue right now. its clear the ui is set up for a controller, thats why you only have 5 skills. that needs to change, and they need to have a lot more skills to chsoe from otherwise every class is going to play exactly the same.

Its going to get very boring very quickly.

hedronlord

Of your points, I only agree with the first. The number of powers is ok, more is not always better, and the environments look good so far.

From what I can tell, Paragon Paths are now talent trees. This is a disappointment to me personally, but this seems to be where much of the character diversity will come from. Paragon Paths were my last hope of being able to put my own spin on characters, but I still think it will be a fun game, just not what I hoped.

bighalsy

This isn't supposed to be some massive, open world MMO. It's based on NWN where the idea is that you're going on specific adventures/quests/stories. Suffice it to say you'll see plenty of variety in the modules produced by Cryptic and by players which will give you more of an open world feel. Personally, I relish the focus and like tighter, more streamlined quests.

paddymaxson

Why has nobody mentioned that the attack animations are really atrocious?

Especially in that devoted cleric trailer
that draw a magic holy spear and throw it repeat loop is goddamn disgusting.

ysil6969

paddymaxson wrote: »

Why has nobody mentioned that the attack animations are really atrocious?

Especially in that devoted cleric trailer
that draw a magic holy spear and throw it repeat loop is goddamn disgusting.

I'm hoping the animations aren't done yet. And that's why the cleric preview took so long. It's the last class to get worked on... ?

hundredhandslap

Guild Wars 2 failed with the "less is more" approach to skills mainly because the CDs were way too long. So after using them all you could do was auto-attack. Hardly what I call "Action". I hope Neverwinter doesn't go the same route. Fewer skills means better designed skills but please don't have us waiting on CDs. I'd rather have short to no CDs with resource management.

paddymaxson

I'm going to be honest. From every MMO Beta I've ever seen/been involved in, only one has ever gotten better animations between beta and release....that was Tabula Rasa, and we all saw how that worked out. I think those animations are indeed /done/

hedronlord

hundredhandslap wrote: »

Guild Wars 2 failed with the "less is more" approach to skills mainly because the CDs were way too long. So after using them all you could do was auto-attack. Hardly what I call "Action". I hope Neverwinter doesn't go the same route. Fewer skills means better designed skills but please don't have us waiting on CDs. I'd rather have short to no CDs with resource management.

lol. That's one hilarious opinion.

pariahoyama

hedronlord wrote: »

lol. That's one hilarious opinion.

Actually he is right.

The lack of powers and the overly trimmed down UI is the #2 reason many people say the game isn't a true MMO. (#1 currently being the lack of diverse "on-the-spot" encounters that the game was touted as having.)

Less can work, but too much less is going to burn people out pretty quickly and turn this into a flash in the pan Asian MMO wannabe. Diversity of actions, customization of appearance and lots of things to do will prevent that burnout or at least stave it off some.

nyghoma

paddymaxson wrote: »

Why has nobody mentioned that the attack animations are really atrocious?

Especially in that devoted cleric trailer
that draw a magic holy spear and throw it repeat loop is goddamn disgusting.

I didn't have a huge problem with the animations. I'll admit I wasn't a big fan of the character combat stances for the wizard and rogue. The wizard looks like he has cerebral palsy, and watching the rogue hunched over gives me a back-ache, lol. Animations will be problematic since there's very little skills used at once.

Have you ever played TSW? Now that is an MMO with atrocious fx.

nyghoma

hundredhandslap wrote: »

Guild Wars 2 failed with the "less is more" approach to skills mainly because the CDs were way too long. So after using them all you could do was auto-attack. Hardly what I call "Action". I hope Neverwinter doesn't go the same route. Fewer skills means better designed skills but please don't have us waiting on CDs. I'd rather have short to no CDs with resource management.

My point, exactly. Spamming 2 attacks for 3/4's of a fight is a snooze.

hundredhandslap

hedronlord wrote: »

lol. That's one hilarious opinion.

Why?

GW2 combat in short bursts of PvP is alright but in PvE it gets old FAST. You literally see 90% of what there is to combat by the time you're level 7. And then there's 73 more levels of it.

Neverwinter looks more dynamic and mobile to me but I really hope it doesn't goes the "MOBA" route. I thought this was an ACTION RPG?

geddings12

the last issue. i feel i might add i feel like it seems at the start theres only one area you can go to ..Neverwinter. it would be nice if they had a town or two outside of Neverwinter you could visit too with like a low level zone outside of the city the problem is it does feel like theres not really a ton of content. Look at Guild Wars 2 ..there was what 5 "low level starting zones?" near each of the 5 cities and you could tp there to any one. The foundry makes up for that in a bit but......the one thing i like about good MMOS is that there still is a lot to see or do at the start, even STO had a few systems you could visit at the start (earth spacedock , deep space nine, memory alpha).

I hope in time more areas will be added.

the main issue i have with the game so far is the lack of camera options for normal (non "inspect" mode) for zooming in and out and an issue with the "events" tab by the mini map keep popping back out when i closed it when i change maps.

also with the nice quest trail icon thing, it would have been nice if it could been used to mark waypoints on your map (like the gate or something) to be able to find it easier.

other then that i like what i see so far. Not let down. just a few issues that i hope they will fix by launch. :-).

horrorscope666

paddymaxson wrote: »

Why has nobody mentioned that the attack animations are really atrocious?

Especially in that devoted cleric trailer
that draw a magic holy spear and throw it repeat loop is goddamn disgusting.

I just haven't got to it, I agree. The models do look stiff. The cleric holding the symbol up like that, looks hookey. Was it TotalBiscuit and his Rouge, when he runs the right arm is in an odd stiff location, super mario'ish or something. I won't say it's a game breaker, but it could be much better and that would do nothing but help. It would make the whole spectacle of combat look more exciting and fluid, where it stands now it has a sort of figurine stature to them.

chili1179

All I can say is wait and see. They are fresh out of alpha, there are tons of new stuff being throw at the game regularly and it will get tweaked and fine tuned, all in time.

Patience. It's a free game.

I would also like to point out that those are not glaring issues, just opinions of what you think is wrong.

horrorscope666

As for the lack of skills, the # of active skills can be ok, but if they haven't they should check out C9/Dragons Nest. There you have limited hot key skills but when you jump and use a skill that is something different. Moving left/right on some skills they work differently. So Lets say one is a Sword Swing. Jump and 1 is a Bash. Left and 1 is a slice. Right and 1 is a hook swing. Things like that. To me that is the next step in action combat, more towards old school fighting games.

ranncore

I think the largest difference you can make in the way your character plays isn't by assigning different passive values during your character's level ups, but by re-arranging the limited skill bar you possess. Having a large variety of active skills to place there, but only having space for a few skills to be used at a time, ensures that even characters who are built similar play very differently according to which skills they bring into the dungeon.

nyghoma

ranncore wrote: »

I think the largest difference you can make in the way your character plays isn't by assigning different passive values during your character's level ups, but by re-arranging the limited skill bar you possess. Having a large variety of active skills to place there, but only having space for a few skills to be used at a time, ensures that even characters who are built similar play very differently according to which skills they bring into the dungeon.

Yeah, its been done before in MMOs. TSW and GW2 limited its actives too. I still think its a mistake.

Its the right idea to trim actives, but find a happy medium. If you have to spam the same 2 attacks for 10-12 sec in every 15 sec interval, ppl will get bored. Shorten the cds to the degree that the FAQ described and it will fix part of the problem. 6-12 sec cd aren't too bad. I can make a nice rotation without putting you to sleep.

Look I've played both LOTRO and WoW where I had 5 full hotbars (yes 60 hotkeys) of skills and items to click.

It was absurd.

I can keep track of all of that, but it does detract from the fun factor. It was a labor. Nobody wants to spend more time looking at hotbars then the rest of your screen.

Some minor tweaking will fix this if Cryptic isn't too stubborn.

hedronlord

pariahoyama wrote: »

Actually he is right.

The lack of powers and the overly trimmed down UI is the #2 reason many people say the game isn't a true MMO. (#1 currently being the lack of diverse "on-the-spot" encounters that the game was touted as having.)

Less can work, but too much less is going to burn people out pretty quickly and turn this into a flash in the pan Asian MMO wannabe. Diversity of actions, customization of appearance and lots of things to do will prevent that burnout or at least stave it off some.

I don't know quite how many is many to you, but the vast majority of both professional and public literature on the subject disagrees. Go to nearly any site and everybody seem to think that its a "true" MMO.

hundredhandslap wrote: »

Why?

GW2 combat in short bursts of PvP is alright but in PvE it gets old FAST. You literally see 90% of what there is to combat by the time you're level 7. And then there's 73 more levels of it.

Neverwinter looks more dynamic and mobile to me but I really hope it doesn't goes the "MOBA" route. I thought this was an ACTION RPG?

As I have no idea how much of the game you have played, and I can't rate your experiences by my own, but if you think that you know all about combat at level 7, its hard for me to believe you played it much. Certainly the gist is clear by then, but there is so much to the combat. Its very deep, but deceptively so.

Some games throw legions of skills the player and task them with choosing which power to use at a certain time. Other give only a few and task the player to choose WHEN to use those powers. I like both, but prefer the latter. You may prefer the former. But GW2 is not a failure by any method I know of.


That said, I do not want to derail the thread from its purpose.

iamtruthseeker

Little confused if the OP actually played the game. If not, will respectfully ask to try it before stating the opinions there. If they have carry on.

gillrmn

iamtruthseeker wrote: »

Little confused if the OP actually played the game. If not, will respectfully ask to try it before stating the opinions there. If they have carry on.

Almost nailed it i think.

hundredhandslap

From the animations that I've seen, I think they're good, but I agree some of them are a bit stiff. What stands out is how each character and action has weight to it and how each skill has definite impact. That already puts animation above most other MMOs. My Greatweapon Fighter is going to have so much fun with the physics system.

I DON'T like the Wizard animations, though. It looks like they're doing Kung Fu. I figured they'd have a staff or something more Wizardy.

arkonagade

I thought the wizard had more AOE, almost all skills are single target, only played it to 9 though, maybe it has AOE later

jivundus

hundredhandslap wrote: »

From the animations that I've seen, I think they're good, but I agree some of them are a bit stiff. What stands out is how each character and action has weight to it and how each skill has definite impact. That already puts animation above most other MMOs. My Greatweapon Fighter is going to have so much fun with the physics system.

I DON'T like the Wizard animations, though. It looks like they're doing Kung Fu. I figured they'd have a staff or something more Wizardy.

I wonder if this is in response to some wizard spells requiring somatic components.

nyghoma

iamtruthseeker wrote: »

Little confused if the OP actually played the game. If not, will respectfully ask to try it before stating the opinions there. If they have carry on.

No I haven't played the game. As I said, my experience with the game is hours and hours of reading here, watching streams and promo vids from industry folks.

I think my opinions are valid and appropriate for this atmosphere. I've been a hardcore gamer for over 10 yrs in the MMO world. Ran top pvp/progression guilds in nearly 15 games, and have beta tested most of them. Two of those games with the Cryptic stamp on them. I think I have enough experience to be able to look at a game in the capacity I have briefed and form a conclusive opinion on its current state.

Honestly, I'm not trolling. I want to be fully invested in this game, otherwise I wouldn't waste the bandwidth.

The points I brought up are pretty tame and negotiable. The first two articles have quick fixes. I'm hoping the ink hasn't dried and these issues can and will be looked over again.

nyghoma

gillrmn wrote: »

Almost nailed it i think.

Fanboy.....:p