In PnP they're both defenders.
But that's because Guardian and Great Weapon are just builds (suggested feats and powers chosen at each level) for a class, they are not classes per se. The class is the Fighter, and it's still that way even in 4E.
Well, that's the thing - we've all been expecting something akin to a representation of DnD, specifically 4E. It's become blatantly obvious that we'll get nothing more than a passing semblance, much like how STO has very little Star Trek in it. We'll get some names, some places, some Cryptic imaginings of what we've all seen before, but that's about it.
It makes sense, though - if they gave us a realistic representation of DnD as far as the classes are concerned, we'd have talent trees to deal with. This would be optimal, but it'd be a hell of a lot harder to sell talent trees or even full classes on the C-store this way. The way they're doing it - where the talent tree IS the class - means that they have far more classes to deal with, meaning far more classes to sell after launch.
The fact is, even as dated and crappy as it is, DDO is still the best representation of an actual Dungeons and Dragons game as an MMO. They at least did the classes right.
I just don't understand why we can't take the whole feat system and make a full fledge class system. Some of the Persistant 500+ man servers in NWN1+2 where done really really well, Yes there were <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> op builds and yes there were some really really weak classes. But that is what balancing is for. Plus lets not rank up the levels so darn high.... Here is a thought, (which I know at this point is useless, but whatever.) Take the full list of skills, powers, feats, races, classes. Put in XP penalization for super crosses and pvp handicaps to balance builds. Take the min/maxing out via nerfs on super builds have it so there are good ways and bad way to make characters just like any mmo has, like melee hunter in vanilla wow... If your to stupid to make a good class good that is your own fault.
D&D was always about deep class control and player to character investment.
I just don't understand why we can't take the whole feat system and make a full fledge class system. Some of the Persistant 500+ man servers in NWN1+2 where done really really well, Yes there were <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> op builds and yes there were some really really weak classes. But that is what balancing is for. Plus lets not rank up the levels so darn high.... Here is a thought, (which I know at this point is useless, but whatever.) Take the full list of skills, powers, feats, races, classes. Put in XP penalization for super crosses and pvp handicaps to balance builds. Take the min/maxing out via nerfs on super builds have it so there are good ways and bad way to make characters just like any mmo has, like melee hunter in vanilla wow... If your to stupid to make a good class good that is your own fault.
D&D was always about deep class control and player to character investment.
Cryptic can't do that because it would require them to actually do some work, and they couldn't sell stuff on the C-Store.
We all know they're making more classes. The question is, how much are they going to charge?
New classes in NW will be analogous to new AT's in Champions for about $12, or ships in STO which run from $10 to $25.
They sure won't be free - CO hasn't seen free AT's to my knowledge, and while STO has had a couple of free ships to throw people a bone, there are more ships available in the C-store than can be gotten in-game for free (and better ones, too).
Also, I'm pretty sure I called not only this, but that the Ranger was nowhere to be found. I was called a troll for such, iirc.
You make a good point that CO has so many ATs that have to be paid for in one way or another but also consider that CO was a conversion to free to play where as in Perfect World's other games, which have all been f2p from the start, they never charge for classes or races, at least not to my knowledge and I have at least tried most of them. So I would be much more inclined to expect that new major zones, races and classes will all be free and will come at a reasonably regular clip. What will be charged for will be costumes. custom weapon skins/animations, mounts, exp boosts, new companions, and setting and items that can be used in foundry creations. oh, and you know there will be lockboxes so, yeah, bring on the lock box keys.
You make a good point that CO has so many ATs that have to be paid for in one way or another but also consider that CO was a conversion to free to play where as in Perfect World's other games, which have all been f2p from the start, they never charge for classes or races, at least not to my knowledge and I have at least tried most of them. So I would be much more inclined to expect that new major zones, races and classes will all be free and will come at a reasonably regular clip. What will be charged for will be costumes. custom weapon skins/animations, mounts, exp boosts, new companions, and setting and items that can be used in foundry creations. oh, and you know there will be lockboxes so, yeah, bring on the lock box keys.
As I pointed out more recently, if they weren't going to be putting classes in the C-store, there's absolutely no reason for talent trees to be treated as a class. It would be much easier from a programming perspective for each class to have multiple talents to be chosen at certain levels, much like a real DnD game, than it is for them to make every stock talent tree into its own custom class, with no personalization from levels 1-60. Between that and the fact that every time Cryptic has said they'd have a cosmetic-only store eventually led to a store that's far from it, I can only surmise that classes will be available for purchase, and very quickly.
As far as the argument that CO and STO were both sub games that transitioned, that doesn't work too well, because both games relied heavily on their C-store well before they transitioned - STO moreso than CO, even though STO was the more popular of the two.
Finally, we already know that races will be in the store - look at the founder bonuses. One's a race that will likely be very popular with the target audience of this game. Every one of those bonuses will be available individually at launch or within two months. Again, Cryptic did the same thing with STO and CO (again, worse with STO), and the only "exclusive" features not available in the C-store are ones that they are legally required to keep exclusive (like the Amazon Borg Bridge Officer or the Walmart 500 XP bonus).
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
To be fair there's a lot of stuff that feels up in the air to long-time followers of this game. Cryptic changing hands, very little information up front.. I mean, heck, we've got 1st edition D&Ds class lineup - Punchy person, healy person, casty person, stabby person. It's exciting for those of us who like what 4th has to offer (Artificer, Warlord, Warlock, etc. etc. etc.) to get some actual confirmation that this game won't just fall by the wayside with a tiny bit of what 4th ed has to offer! I think it's also fair to say that at least some of us are a bit worried about how the game is going to come together.. Will the 'official' developed content last, or will it be a week or two of play and then everything else will be sub-par player created content, focused on min-maxing XP gain or some such, with only a handful coming out weeks later, once dedicated people really start working, that is genuinely fun or well-done. It makes some folks preeetttty worried about the quality and breadth of game that might be coming down the line - worse yet when NWN and NWN2 were some of the most fun games we may have played growing up and all.. I'm not saying I feel the team is way in over their heads, but there's a looooooot of material in 4th ed that many of us would love to see, and so far the tiniest scratch of the surface seems to be on display, with a worrisome focus on "let the players build stuff instead."
Not to mention there's quite a camp of us that would love to see more of the base-rulebook's playable races.. rather than just humans, pointy-eared humans, half-pointed-eared humans, and horned humans. 4th edition has so much neat stuff, we want to see it worked with!
I have had good and bad experiences. But I prefer to wait and see what will happen, not just put arbitrary dates to something that I have no clue as to the plans for. That is why I add the line that they will offer what they can based upon their business models and schedule.
As far as STO goes. I still very much enjoy it. Oh and STO has had a major content upgrade every 3-6 months since launch. It may not be what you think is important, but there is a great deal of effort going into keeping STO an active and thriving game. I dont agree that all of Cryptics efforts are based upon what the audience wants most but having been on the inside of many development efforts there is aways a difference between what the customer wants and what can be realistically be delivered given costs, time, and resources.
We all see the tip of a very large ice burg. Lack of communication makes it look like we are being ignored, but what is happening is that what can be delivered given the business model is being delivered. If you dont like it, dont play, but dont for a second make the people that work hard to deliver enviornments for us all to play in; the bad guys. Instead, if we were to support them and try to help, things might get better, or they might get worse. Either way I will continue to think positively and try to help where I can.
Maybe try to walk, not a mile, but just a few feet in the shoes of the developers and support persons involved in bringing us our entertainment. Then just have fun with it, if your not then why bother. Im not going to pay for a game that I dont enjoy. If you dont enjoy it dont pay for it. Oh wait, its free. Unless you feel like getting a few extra little things out of thier shop to help support the effort. I dont think I have ever went into a movie and had them say. Oh just pay us on the way out, oh and only if you liked it. Come on guys, lets get some perspective.
What are we all complaining about? I few classes that will most likely get added in a few months. If they don't, so what. They commited the crime of not including my favorite class in this first set of five as well. But I'll tell you what. I had a blast playing the ones this weekend. I guess I just want to say. Lets all take a step back and take a realistic look at whats going on.
In PnP they're both defenders.
But that's because Guardian and Great Weapon are just -OPTIONAL- builds (suggested feats and powers chosen at each level) for a class, they are not classes per se. The class is the Fighter, and it's still that way even in 4E.
In this MMO game, they are not. In this game, the GWF is a striker as shown by the video. Since the GFW is not released yet for beta, that's all I can say and con't comment if there will be future defending options or not.
But it's a totally different class than the Guardian Defender even if not in name or as listed for the fighter in 4E PnP D&D. That I can say.
So expect each class BUILD to be essentially a different CLASS not compatible with the other types. So a war and control wizard would NOT likely be trading stuff to each other for example or even possibly like the two fighters here alone have the same possible play-styles even if the PnP lists them both as "controler".
I'll skip the build suggestions in tabletop effectively altering the role or making a secondary role here as it will confuse people about the MMO which is inspired and not literally from 4e.
If you were to end up min-maxing a fighter for DPS, would you naturally end up with a GWF (or min-maxing for tank, would you end up with the GF)? Most people - whether they like it or not - will end up min-maxing their characters' stats, so in that respect, do you think separating the builds to create a more dynamic "fighter" (in this specific case) with their own set of skills was the best move? (I do, personally)
Alternatively, if you had a free-form "fighter" class for example, do you think you'd be gimped or at a disadvantage if you didn't fully utilize the GWF or GF builds and decided to mix-and-match instead? As a result, do you think you'd be less considered to join a particular group to fill a specific role if you chose to make a mix-and-match fighter rather than utilizing min-max builds like GWF or GF?
Because the way I see it, if they DIDN'T have these builds, people would be making them naturally anyways. Puts the builds in a better perspective than what most comments are portraying them as (restrictive)....
This may also come as a devastating shock to some people, but THE GAME IS NOT FINISHED YET. Did anyone consider the fact that they may, just maybe, put in additional feats, powers, content, weapons, etc. BEFORE the final product is released? It's a lot easier to add stuff than it is to change the mechanics altogether. Maybe they just want to make sure the game works first.....?
Pretend like you were beta testing Super Mario Brothers (NES), but in this version, you only got a single screen that didn't scroll, only 1 mushroom (testing powers), and a goomba (testing battle). Just be glad that this wasn't the black and white "alpha screen test", and that there is a potential great game to be had WHEN IT IS DONE AND READY TO PLAY.
Well I have to agree with the people that are worried. Warrior that cannot change there weapons? The point is that according to what I want to play I will have switch character which mean that I cannot invest in roleplaying one character because its game play will be overly limited. One of the fun of all DD for the wizard was to collect all spell. Look like this will not be the case.
As to theargument if you don't like it don't play it. I would be ok if they were not using a DD licence because they prevent other to develop a different neverwinter based on differ mechanism.
I am a very very good expereince in private server of NWN 1+2 it is what I am looking for and I am afraisd that's not what has been done despide all the good work that have been put into.
Bottom line I got interested in the game out of nostalgy for a past lost. And I think we are a lot.
This may also come as a devastating shock to some people, but THE GAME IS NOT FINISHED YET. Did anyone consider the fact that they may, just maybe, put in additional feats, powers, content, weapons, etc. BEFORE the final product is released? It's a lot easier to add stuff than it is to change the mechanics altogether. Maybe they just want to make sure the game works first.....?
Pretend like you were beta testing Super Mario Brothers (NES), but in this version, you only got a single screen that didn't scroll, only 1 mushroom (testing powers), and a goomba (testing battle). Just be glad that this wasn't the black and white "alpha screen test", and that there is a potential great game to be had WHEN IT IS DONE AND READY TO PLAY.
The game is launching in about three months, dude. What we see is pretty much what we're going to get.
Dwarf if they didnt look so bad this is one of the worse reditions of a dwarf ive ever seen go look at the 3.0 or 3.5 art work much better 4.o art work sucks IMO
Well, that's the thing - we've all been expecting something akin to a representation of DnD, specifically 4E. It's become blatantly obvious that we'll get nothing more than a passing semblance, much like how STO has very little Star Trek in it. We'll get some names, some places, some Cryptic imaginings of what we've all seen before, but that's about it.
It makes sense, though - if they gave us a realistic representation of DnD as far as the classes are concerned, we'd have talent trees to deal with. This would be optimal, but it'd be a hell of a lot harder to sell talent trees or even full classes on the C-store this way. The way they're doing it - where the talent tree IS the class - means that they have far more classes to deal with, meaning far more classes to sell after launch.
The fact is, even as dated and crappy as it is, DDO is still the best representation of an actual Dungeons and Dragons game as an MMO. They at least did the classes right.
In this MMO game, they are not. In this game, the GWF is a striker as shown by the video. Since the GFW is not released yet for beta, that's all I can say and con't comment if there will be future defending options or not.
But it's a totally different class than the Guardian Defender even if not in name or as listed for the fighter in 4E PnP D&D. That I can say.
You realize that by saying,
Well I know they are the same class in the official built of the 4.0 rules the rules that this D&D game is completely based on or rather is suppose to be based on.
Just makes it look like the devs looked at the entire looooooong list of classes and said.... Well lets just build off the same class because simply put it would be Wayyyyy to hard to go threw allllllll those other classes to find one that would fill the same role but in truth be a different class.
When stuff like this is said it comes across as terribly bad design, developing and implementation. And while more and more reviews are saying, yeah pretty good game it really has some potential but sheesh clone fever for the classes. Why is there only 4? Because I SWEAR that the GWF and the GF are based off the same class.
While yes 2 different roles of the same classes like dps and tanks can be COMPLETELY different in both play and skill building if you take it from the same base class.... It's the same class. Fine... Change it... Or Maybe we should have had them build from the warlord in stead. NO ONE tied their hands and gave them 4 class descriptions. No one forced them to ignore all other two-handed weapon focused classes. So why did they draw from the same class? It's a complete cop out. and worse yet you are defending them like "WE" are the stupid people and that "WE" don't know what D&D is.
The game is launching in about three months, dude. What we see is pretty much what we're going to get.
Neverwinter is launching completely free to play. Its success and profitability hinges ENTIRELY on continuous content updates to the game, which obviously the devs have expressed their desire to do many times.
And being entirely free to play, if you get bored with lack of content and classes, simply wait until more is added. To me, it's better than waiting a full 4 year development cycle being fed hype the whole time that no game can live up to (see every MMO released in the past 6 years).
Something I've always dreamed about in an MMO is a class that can fight while mounted. Perhaps one day we could see a Mounted Cavalier? That would be cool.
None of what you said actually addressed his main question - why do we have TWO fighter classes that can't switch roles, but NO ranged weapon class whatsoever?
I agree this is a stingy amount of classes to start with and I have no idea why we've got two fighters but no Ranger or Bard
And, no, they didn't have to redo "everything." Far from it, actually - they're still using the Cryptic Engine, seen in Champions and STO. They're still using STO's Foundry, forcing players to make content because they won't. The same story and missions. Heck, the COMBAT's going to be pretty much the same, too. All they did was change the grouping and refine the classes.
Now here you're totally wrong, other that a certain amount of 'quest are quests' that ALL Mmo's have, nothing's the same.
As for the Foundry?
That's letting your players add value to the game a lot faster and sometimes better than the Dev team can. That's not making the players do it, it's allowing them to. Just an aside, CO players are literally begging for this feature even though we know it's a pipe dream.
As for "it's delayed while they do it right," I'd LOVE a link on that, since until I see one, there's absolutely nothing to suggest it won't be a paid class two months post-launch.
I'd be shocked if there were paid classes. It's not a part of the model that seems to have worked for them In CO and as far as I know they don't bother in STO and it's doing great.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
A leader of The Blackwatch Defenders
Neverwinter is launching completely free to play. Its success and profitability hinges ENTIRELY on continuous content updates to the game, which obviously the devs have expressed their desire to do many times.
And being entirely free to play, if you get bored with lack of content and classes, simply wait until more is added. To me, it's better than waiting a full 4 year development cycle being fed hype the whole time that no game can live up to (see every MMO released in the past 6 years).
So, you're saying they should launch a game with no content because they can patch it in? Tell that to every STO player on the Klingon faction, whom have now been waiting over three YEARS for enough PvE to go from level 1 through to max-level, even though they WERE promised it before launch.
As I have said many times, Cryptic's track record in this regard negates your defense of them.
I'd be shocked if there were paid classes. It's not a part of the model that seems to have worked for them In CO and as far as I know they don't bother in STO and it's doing great.
CO's got paid classes - a lot of them - and STO's analogue would be ships, which they sell on the C-store (more powerful than those available in-game) at $25 a pop. This is outside of the ones that can only be obtained via lockboxes with their illegal-in-some-countries drop rate.
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krisgMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
well i very rarely say anything in the forums of any game because most(not all tho) people troll for no reason other then trolling. for those of you who wish this was neverwinter nights1 or 2 you should look at your lore of forgotten realms. neverwinter is a city. and in the case of 4e it is a supplement book for a campaign setting. therefore the name neverwinter is just the setting of the game.this game is about the feel and the setting not necessarily all the goods and bad about dnd. that is why wizards of the coast gave them the okay. they are watching what cryptic does with the setting not the rules of tabletop dnd. everyone who is complaining wishing it was nwn then go play nwn. and on your downtime from that come hang with the rest of us. people are always going to find a reason to complain about one thing or another and things like that is what makes the communities bad in mmorpgs today. hell the game has only had 1 beta weekend and people are already complaining. think about it. when you goto work or school and get b*tched at for no reason your not going to do your best anyways. if you work at fast food and someone is rude to you, you spit in there food. give cryptic time to get the game the way they envisioned it, for they are the ones who are spending time and effort making the game not you. if at launch you dont like the finished product so be it. its free
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kazel63Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
well i very rarely say anything in the forums of any game because most(not all tho) people troll for no reason other then trolling. for those of you who wish this was neverwinter nights1 or 2 you should look at your lore of forgotten realms. neverwinter is a city. and in the case of 4e it is a supplement book for a campaign setting. therefore the name neverwinter is just the setting of the game.this game is about the feel and the setting not necessarily all the goods and bad about dnd. that is why wizards of the coast gave them the okay. they are watching what cryptic does with the setting not the rules of tabletop dnd. everyone who is complaining wishing it was nwn then go play nwn. and on your downtime from that come hang with the rest of us. people are always going to find a reason to complain about one thing or another and things like that is what makes the communities bad in mmorpgs today. hell the game has only had 1 beta weekend and people are already complaining. think about it. when you goto work or school and get b*tched at for no reason your not going to do your best anyways. if you work at fast food and someone is rude to you, you spit in there food. give cryptic time to get the game the way they envisioned it, for they are the ones who are spending time and effort making the game not you. if at launch you dont like the finished product so be it. its free
OMFG +1, with so many meople spitting on the devs's work only after a one-only first beta WE, i could fully understand the devs to hang off their goal of creating new exciting classes, and let the fck of you complaining, with only the core release while u have already paid your guardian and founder's pack....
So let the devs do their job, don't complain about everything, and think of it: we have only ONE beta WE dude.....but yeah, it's fun spitting on other.....fa...
CO's got paid classes - a lot of them - and STO's analogue would be ships, which they sell on the C-store (more powerful than those available in-game) at $25 a pop. This is outside of the ones that can only be obtained via lockboxes with their illegal-in-some-countries drop rate.
I've been playing Co since Beta, so please don't pretend I didn't mention the paid 'classes' in CO. I did say they didn't seem to work out for them, they even stopped the archetype rotation thing because they really weren't selling that well.
And I'm not sure, in fact I'm really sure that Ships aren't classes in STO. Lets be honest, STO has three classes and the ships are like gear. I mean my main STO character has.. ah.. seven of them? I think? So if one character has seven .. lets call em 'mounts' but their far more than that, lets be honest. It's clearly not a class.
In any case the game that does have buy-able 'classes'; CO, doesn't seem to profit by them much. Since the real seller seems to be free form slots that make you -ahem- classless.
My point is, Cryptic does make a lot of strange monetization decisions but they generally don't keep doing ones that don't work.
I do expect to see races for sale, mounts, costumes, lockbox keys, re-specc tokens, bank slots, bag slots, bags and all that kind of stuff for sale. Those seem to sell really well for them, and it's likely they use those here.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
A leader of The Blackwatch Defenders
I've been playing Co since Beta, so please don't pretend I didn't mention the paid 'classes' in CO. I did say they didn't seem to work out for them, they even stopped the archetype rotation thing because they really weren't selling that well.
And I'm not sure, in fact I'm really sure that Ships aren't classes in STO. Lets be honest, STO has three classes and the ships are like gear. I mean my main STO character has.. ah.. seven of them? I think? So if one character has seven .. lets call em 'mounts' but their far more than that, lets be honest. It's clearly not a class.
I didn't say that ships were classes - I said they were the analogue for them. Your abilities in STO are ruled far more by your ship than your class. Even in Ground Combat, your class merely determines what Kits you can equip - not your abilities in any meaningful way.
Combine this with the fact that most of the useful skills are shared between classes and you need to choose your loadout based on your SHIP CHOICE rather than your class, and ships are clearly a class analogue.
How do I know this? I was a pre-order lifer to STO, having been involved in every aspect of beta-testing. I was following Cryptic's development of THAT game since it was announced they had the game. I was well aware of the claims of a "cosmetic-only" cash shop, which lasted all of four months (or launch, if you count the races available at launch that had totally unique attributes).
In any case the game that does have buy-able 'classes'; CO, doesn't seem to profit by them much. Since the real seller seems to be free form slots that make you -ahem- classless.
Yeah, let's just completely disregard the fact that for the longest time, YOU COULDN'T BUY FREEFORM SLOTS. They were reserved solely for Gold players, and the only options free players had was, what? Oh, yeah - CLASSES.
Since there is no analogue to freeform slots in NW, classes will be in the store.
My point is, Cryptic does make a lot of strange monetization decisions but they generally don't keep doing ones that don't work.
As for freeform, I'm talking about what's selling now, not then. But no, ships aren't classes, aren't comparable to classes, and aren't analogous to them either.
Anyway we'll find out soon enough if they're selling classes or not.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
A leader of The Blackwatch Defenders
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lawltaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 3Arc User
As for freeform, I'm talking about what's selling now, not then.
As I said, that completely removes any and all points of comparison, since NW won't have anything similar to freeform classes.
But no, ships aren't classes, aren't comparable to classes, and aren't analogous to them either.
Okay then, play STO with whatever ship you want without any forethought on your ship's loadout or Bridge Officer compliment. If they aren't analogous to classes in any way, and are nothing more than gear, this won't matter at all.
Anyway we'll find out soon enough if they're selling classes or not.
Agreed. Just don't whine or backpedal when they're on there.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
A leader of The Blackwatch Defenders
In addition, I do again point right at that video where the developer, when asked directly "what will be pay and what will be free" didn't even say "I can't say at this time" but instead gave what sounded to me like a pre-wrote speech designed to redirect and obfuscate.
I'm not going to argue the point much. Promise. Yeah, Cryptic will probably give away the archer, like you said...but I can feel it in my bones...Cryptic will also charge for future classes, races and content, simply because fluff and convenience can only go so far. I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is lack of clear, concise communication. I mean, it's not like someone's trying to steal their product and ideas away from them. Cryptic is doing nothing innovating here with NWO.
Oh, and the way around the "we won't sell classes and races" statement is easy for Cryptic/PW. Just put them into lockboxes and sell the keys to open said lockboxes. Call this a hunch based upon past performance.
At this point in time, I remain hopefully skeptical and VERY watchful of what they say.
Even though this forum <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dosen't deserve it, and every post he's made so far on the forums has been to bad-mouth the game, the devs, or his unfounded expectations of being hammered for money, I'll post this for everyone else's sake: http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieltack/2013/03/10/andy-velasquez-talks-neverwinter/
Oh look at that, it's from last month, now shut your mouth, little boy, and stop griping about something you haven't had to invest in to enjoy.
Excerpt:
What sort of things will be in the cash shop? What's monetization model look like?
We are very excited to say that we are 100% free-to-play, beyond that we also don’t have a box price. Even more than that we don’t have content or classes that are tucked away behind pay gates either. So if you want to you can enjoy the entirety of the game without paying anything!
"A True Friend Stabs You in the Front."
~Oscar Wilde~
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Comments
Well, that's the thing - we've all been expecting something akin to a representation of DnD, specifically 4E. It's become blatantly obvious that we'll get nothing more than a passing semblance, much like how STO has very little Star Trek in it. We'll get some names, some places, some Cryptic imaginings of what we've all seen before, but that's about it.
It makes sense, though - if they gave us a realistic representation of DnD as far as the classes are concerned, we'd have talent trees to deal with. This would be optimal, but it'd be a hell of a lot harder to sell talent trees or even full classes on the C-store this way. The way they're doing it - where the talent tree IS the class - means that they have far more classes to deal with, meaning far more classes to sell after launch.
The fact is, even as dated and crappy as it is, DDO is still the best representation of an actual Dungeons and Dragons game as an MMO. They at least did the classes right.
D&D was always about deep class control and player to character investment.
Cryptic can't do that because it would require them to actually do some work, and they couldn't sell stuff on the C-Store.
You make a good point that CO has so many ATs that have to be paid for in one way or another but also consider that CO was a conversion to free to play where as in Perfect World's other games, which have all been f2p from the start, they never charge for classes or races, at least not to my knowledge and I have at least tried most of them. So I would be much more inclined to expect that new major zones, races and classes will all be free and will come at a reasonably regular clip. What will be charged for will be costumes. custom weapon skins/animations, mounts, exp boosts, new companions, and setting and items that can be used in foundry creations. oh, and you know there will be lockboxes so, yeah, bring on the lock box keys.
All die, so die well.
As I pointed out more recently, if they weren't going to be putting classes in the C-store, there's absolutely no reason for talent trees to be treated as a class. It would be much easier from a programming perspective for each class to have multiple talents to be chosen at certain levels, much like a real DnD game, than it is for them to make every stock talent tree into its own custom class, with no personalization from levels 1-60. Between that and the fact that every time Cryptic has said they'd have a cosmetic-only store eventually led to a store that's far from it, I can only surmise that classes will be available for purchase, and very quickly.
As far as the argument that CO and STO were both sub games that transitioned, that doesn't work too well, because both games relied heavily on their C-store well before they transitioned - STO moreso than CO, even though STO was the more popular of the two.
Finally, we already know that races will be in the store - look at the founder bonuses. One's a race that will likely be very popular with the target audience of this game. Every one of those bonuses will be available individually at launch or within two months. Again, Cryptic did the same thing with STO and CO (again, worse with STO), and the only "exclusive" features not available in the C-store are ones that they are legally required to keep exclusive (like the Amazon Borg Bridge Officer or the Walmart 500 XP bonus).
QFT thank you.
Not at launch.
In this MMO game, they are not. In this game, the GWF is a striker as shown by the video. Since the GFW is not released yet for beta, that's all I can say and con't comment if there will be future defending options or not.
But it's a totally different class than the Guardian Defender even if not in name or as listed for the fighter in 4E PnP D&D. That I can say.
So expect each class BUILD to be essentially a different CLASS not compatible with the other types. So a war and control wizard would NOT likely be trading stuff to each other for example or even possibly like the two fighters here alone have the same possible play-styles even if the PnP lists them both as "controler".
I'll skip the build suggestions in tabletop effectively altering the role or making a secondary role here as it will confuse people about the MMO which is inspired and not literally from 4e.
This may also come as a devastating shock to some people, but THE GAME IS NOT FINISHED YET. Did anyone consider the fact that they may, just maybe, put in additional feats, powers, content, weapons, etc. BEFORE the final product is released? It's a lot easier to add stuff than it is to change the mechanics altogether. Maybe they just want to make sure the game works first.....?
Pretend like you were beta testing Super Mario Brothers (NES), but in this version, you only got a single screen that didn't scroll, only 1 mushroom (testing powers), and a goomba (testing battle). Just be glad that this wasn't the black and white "alpha screen test", and that there is a potential great game to be had WHEN IT IS DONE AND READY TO PLAY.
As to theargument if you don't like it don't play it. I would be ok if they were not using a DD licence because they prevent other to develop a different neverwinter based on differ mechanism.
I am a very very good expereince in private server of NWN 1+2 it is what I am looking for and I am afraisd that's not what has been done despide all the good work that have been put into.
Bottom line I got interested in the game out of nostalgy for a past lost. And I think we are a lot.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
***yawn***
The game is launching in about three months, dude. What we see is pretty much what we're going to get.
I wasn't aware of a release date. What was it again?
Exactly...
You realize that by saying,
Well I know they are the same class in the official built of the 4.0 rules the rules that this D&D game is completely based on or rather is suppose to be based on.
Just makes it look like the devs looked at the entire looooooong list of classes and said.... Well lets just build off the same class because simply put it would be Wayyyyy to hard to go threw allllllll those other classes to find one that would fill the same role but in truth be a different class.
When stuff like this is said it comes across as terribly bad design, developing and implementation. And while more and more reviews are saying, yeah pretty good game it really has some potential but sheesh clone fever for the classes. Why is there only 4? Because I SWEAR that the GWF and the GF are based off the same class.
While yes 2 different roles of the same classes like dps and tanks can be COMPLETELY different in both play and skill building if you take it from the same base class.... It's the same class. Fine... Change it... Or Maybe we should have had them build from the warlord in stead. NO ONE tied their hands and gave them 4 class descriptions. No one forced them to ignore all other two-handed weapon focused classes. So why did they draw from the same class? It's a complete cop out. and worse yet you are defending them like "WE" are the stupid people and that "WE" don't know what D&D is.
Neverwinter is launching completely free to play. Its success and profitability hinges ENTIRELY on continuous content updates to the game, which obviously the devs have expressed their desire to do many times.
And being entirely free to play, if you get bored with lack of content and classes, simply wait until more is added. To me, it's better than waiting a full 4 year development cycle being fed hype the whole time that no game can live up to (see every MMO released in the past 6 years).
I agree this is a stingy amount of classes to start with and I have no idea why we've got two fighters but no Ranger or Bard
Now here you're totally wrong, other that a certain amount of 'quest are quests' that ALL Mmo's have, nothing's the same.
As for the Foundry?
That's letting your players add value to the game a lot faster and sometimes better than the Dev team can. That's not making the players do it, it's allowing them to. Just an aside, CO players are literally begging for this feature even though we know it's a pipe dream.
I'd be shocked if there were paid classes. It's not a part of the model that seems to have worked for them In CO and as far as I know they don't bother in STO and it's doing great.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
A leader of The Blackwatch Defenders
Look at the beta timelines for CO and STO - three or four beta weekends, a two-week open beta and launch, all within three months.
We just had our first beta. It'll launch within the next three months.
So, you're saying they should launch a game with no content because they can patch it in? Tell that to every STO player on the Klingon faction, whom have now been waiting over three YEARS for enough PvE to go from level 1 through to max-level, even though they WERE promised it before launch.
As I have said many times, Cryptic's track record in this regard negates your defense of them.
CO's got paid classes - a lot of them - and STO's analogue would be ships, which they sell on the C-store (more powerful than those available in-game) at $25 a pop. This is outside of the ones that can only be obtained via lockboxes with their illegal-in-some-countries drop rate.
OMFG +1, with so many meople spitting on the devs's work only after a one-only first beta WE, i could fully understand the devs to hang off their goal of creating new exciting classes, and let the fck of you complaining, with only the core release while u have already paid your guardian and founder's pack....
So let the devs do their job, don't complain about everything, and think of it: we have only ONE beta WE dude.....but yeah, it's fun spitting on other.....fa...
I've been playing Co since Beta, so please don't pretend I didn't mention the paid 'classes' in CO. I did say they didn't seem to work out for them, they even stopped the archetype rotation thing because they really weren't selling that well.
And I'm not sure, in fact I'm really sure that Ships aren't classes in STO. Lets be honest, STO has three classes and the ships are like gear. I mean my main STO character has.. ah.. seven of them? I think? So if one character has seven .. lets call em 'mounts' but their far more than that, lets be honest. It's clearly not a class.
In any case the game that does have buy-able 'classes'; CO, doesn't seem to profit by them much. Since the real seller seems to be free form slots that make you -ahem- classless.
My point is, Cryptic does make a lot of strange monetization decisions but they generally don't keep doing ones that don't work.
I do expect to see races for sale, mounts, costumes, lockbox keys, re-specc tokens, bank slots, bag slots, bags and all that kind of stuff for sale. Those seem to sell really well for them, and it's likely they use those here.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
A leader of The Blackwatch Defenders
I didn't say that ships were classes - I said they were the analogue for them. Your abilities in STO are ruled far more by your ship than your class. Even in Ground Combat, your class merely determines what Kits you can equip - not your abilities in any meaningful way.
Combine this with the fact that most of the useful skills are shared between classes and you need to choose your loadout based on your SHIP CHOICE rather than your class, and ships are clearly a class analogue.
How do I know this? I was a pre-order lifer to STO, having been involved in every aspect of beta-testing. I was following Cryptic's development of THAT game since it was announced they had the game. I was well aware of the claims of a "cosmetic-only" cash shop, which lasted all of four months (or launch, if you count the races available at launch that had totally unique attributes).
Yeah, let's just completely disregard the fact that for the longest time, YOU COULDN'T BUY FREEFORM SLOTS. They were reserved solely for Gold players, and the only options free players had was, what? Oh, yeah - CLASSES.
Since there is no analogue to freeform slots in NW, classes will be in the store.
And your point ignores basic facts to exist.
As for freeform, I'm talking about what's selling now, not then. But no, ships aren't classes, aren't comparable to classes, and aren't analogous to them either.
Anyway we'll find out soon enough if they're selling classes or not.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
A leader of The Blackwatch Defenders
As I said, that completely removes any and all points of comparison, since NW won't have anything similar to freeform classes.
Okay then, play STO with whatever ship you want without any forethought on your ship's loadout or Bridge Officer compliment. If they aren't analogous to classes in any way, and are nothing more than gear, this won't matter at all.
Agreed. Just don't whine or backpedal when they're on there.
Don't take it so seriously when you are wrong :P
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
A leader of The Blackwatch Defenders
Even though this forum <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dosen't deserve it, and every post he's made so far on the forums has been to bad-mouth the game, the devs, or his unfounded expectations of being hammered for money, I'll post this for everyone else's sake:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieltack/2013/03/10/andy-velasquez-talks-neverwinter/
Oh look at that, it's from last month, now shut your mouth, little boy, and stop griping about something you haven't had to invest in to enjoy.
Excerpt:
What sort of things will be in the cash shop? What's monetization model look like?
We are very excited to say that we are 100% free-to-play, beyond that we also don’t have a box price. Even more than that we don’t have content or classes that are tucked away behind pay gates either. So if you want to you can enjoy the entirety of the game without paying anything!
~Oscar Wilde~
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/videos/gameID/634/videoId/3021
Start the video at 1 minute in.