You're reading in a wrong way my post. Meaning of word is done by general consensus and approval. A "mortgage" is exactly a "mortgage" now, but maybe in 100 years it will evolve into something different.
When i wrote "my own" definition of "massive" i just referred to what i read in multiple sources. I'm not really making up something, as you may think. So, it may be wrong, but then it's a battle between 2 different types of use of the same word. It's not a big deal, in phylosophy happens basically everytime.
Many people call their monitor a "computer". Doesn't make it true.
I also just want to point out that if you're defining an MMO as an ability to go into an instance as a party with a large group of people, than Battlefield is an MMO (32 players per team, single instance of the map per server).
Now if you want to use the proper definition, an MMO is any game that is considered a "Massive multiplayer", meaning a considerable number of players per shard. Planetside 2 is an example of an MMO from an FPS perspective. That doesn't fit into your "modern" description of an MMO. No RAIDs there.
But keep calling that monitor a computer.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Yes it is MMO at least big parts. It is true that we lack PvE Raids which I certainly wish will be added to game maybe in an expansion Pack.
That said PvP is NOT limited to some 5vs5. Developers in these Forums have told that there will be support for BIG Battlegrounds! Remember Alterac Valley 40 vs 40 from WOW? I would guess biggest PvP Battlegrounds will be in that class and they will also contain forest and other environment.
This game will not have so insane huge PvP fights as Guild Wars 2 with up to 2000 players in the Mist PvP. However I think that is good that not so big PvP battles will exist since that will give less CPU system requirements.
I will buy later this year a super Haswell Desktop. That said this game should also be playable with a gaming laptop. I think WOW sized Battlegrounds is a good target.
There are also Even in this game and certainly more power progression then silly carebear game Guild Wars 2. This game seems to me more like a MMO then Guild Wars 2! However yes WOW is more MMO like. That said maybe one day day this game will with an expansion pack also get Raids.
Words are made by usage, and are not static in society. Since MMORPG is a word, it may have different definitions that change from time to time, especially in a fast-changing world as gaming industry
.
Have to agree with this. Words especially in the english language are fluid. Here is a simple example the word mouse while retaining its original definition has gained a second one in my lifetime. There was a word that meant happy that has gained another definition.
That is very much a player grown expectation and misunderstanding. As far as a lot of D&D players are concerned they couldn't care about raids. D&D itself is designed to operate between 4-6 members in a party so while the idea of raids works well in something like sieges typical D&D doesn't involve hundreds of players.
Here here.
I really agree with this opinion and have to say well said Abisinisterr
A MMORPG is when there's 2,000 players online at once and you can find and talk to every single one of them if you like in the world...... I remember playing Asheron's Call in its golden years when it had 2,500 people online at peak times and the towns had portal storms (cheap way to do crowd control) people would get teleported out of town to reduce lag if there were too many people in one area LOL
1 huge seamless world... no instancing... complete freedom to go anywhere and do anything... That game was the best... nothing since ever came close for me... played for 3 years daily.... Ah so many memories.. I am actually surprised its still up and running since it first came out in 1999... it's nothing like it was though anymore...
Don't even bother. In his vision Asherons call is the only MMORPG ever made.
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johnny305Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
MMO just means you can interact with massive amounts of players, not that you are in a huge raid. Huge time consuming raids pretty much went the way of the do do bird long ago.
If you can meet up with thousands of players and chat and join a party to play with them then its an MMORPG nowadays.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Darn you!!!! I was going to say that when I first saw this thread yesterday morning! But I told my self "No, your just in a bad mood right now. If you don't have anything constructive to say don't post in this thread. It's not yours to worry about."
Da kitties don't speak for me, deez kitties speak fur us all!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'll Keep this up till beta goes live. I'll improve it soon.
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jaffrojonesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It doesn't seem like it's going to be massively multiplayer.. it seems more like it's just smaller groups or parties going through premade DM scenarios or quests ?
I am very excited about this game. That being said, I don't know if I would say this is a "real mmo". The reason I say this is because I don't think there is massively open world. I think the town is public to all at the same time. It's your social area where you can meet up with people, hang out, shop... so on and so forth. You also get quests there. Once you receive quests and get your team together, you then go to the area where your quest(s) take place, and it's instanced for your group only. I don't think there is an open are where everyone is just out in the world killing monsters. This is the way it seems like it is to me... I could be completely wrong... We who are in beta will know Friday.
That being said, I am happy if that is the way it is. Remember, this is based off of D&D, and D&D isn't about raids. It's about a group of adventurers going on dungeon delves. It's suppose to be a party made up Warrior, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard. Whether the warrior is a Ranger or Paladin, the rogue a Thief or an Assassin, the cleric a Devout Priest or a Battle Cleric and the wizard a Mage or a Necromancer, it's always been about small groups doing big things.
That's not to say there isn't room for more things like raids and huge battles that involve taking castles and things like that, but I don't mind if those things come later.
It is an MMO in the sense that 1000's of players will be on the same server getting together to do things. That is all I need for the first M to be in MMO.
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providenttMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Hmm. The Control Wizard gameplay video thing gave me the impression that the world was indeed open. I agree that's not what D&D is about though and would prefer self-enclosed story-focused adventures.
We'll find out soon though.
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jaffrojonesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Guess I was wrong when I said I thought there were not going to be open world zones to kill monsters in... Here is the link and the quote from the developers...
"Neverwinter, like our previous games, is not a seamless world but rather a collection of persistent zones, instances, arenas and dynamic events. Zones are large persistent areas that contain open world quests, doors to instanced quest areas like sewers and caves, dynamic contests and queued zone events. Each zone has its own large dungeon that requires a group to complete and also ties off the story arc for that zone."
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I can ground up coffee beans, dump them into my french press, pour steaming hot water over them and then strain the resultant liquid into my coffee cup and call it steak. It will still be referred to as a cup of coffee by the other people in my community no matter how obstinate I remain in calling a cup of coffee a steak.
Haha, good one!
Lol, why are people arguing about what MMORPG stands for. It is a very general term and essentially means what is stated. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. The MMO part is extremely simple. It is a game where heaps of people can jump in together. That's it. Nothing to do with raids, open zones, instanced zones, pvp, pve, or whatever else you might make up. It is simply a game where many people can interact online simultaneously. Now, the RPG on the other hand is more up for debate. :P
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
edited February 2013
Neverwinter is a MMORPG and being one has nothing to do with raids. In fact I find it silly that some people find 20 people in a group "massive". You should check out Battlefield then - these 64 vs 64 battle will really shake you up.
In fact I find that finding 5 random people to do a dungeon for an hour is much more "massive" than putting myself in a group of the same 20 people every week for 5-10 hours killing the same bosses and having the same stupid problems over and over again.
I think coop should be part of the MMORPG genre but it should not be forced upon people and organized coop is the worst kind of coop ever as you never meet new people doing it. I think that there should be zone events like in GW2 and Rift and Cryptic already confirmed that there will be events like that in Neverwitner. The other thing that will promote "good" coop is having open world zones where the monsters are really tough to handle on your own. That way you will have natural grouping for players that want to get through this zone. Open a world PvP areas - mix PvP and PvE and you will have even more natural grouping happen on it's own.
Neverwinter is a MMORPG and being one has nothing to do with raids. In fact I find it silly that some people find 20 people in a group "massive". You should check out Battlefield then - these 64 vs 64 battle will really shake you up.
In fact I find that finding 5 random people to do a dungeon for an hour is much more "massive" than putting myself in a group of the same 20 people every week for 5-10 hours killing the same bosses and having the same stupid problems over and over again.
I think coop should be part of the MMORPG genre but it should not be forced upon people and organized coop is the worst kind of coop ever as you never meet new people doing it. I think that there should be zone events like in GW2 and Rift and Cryptic already confirmed that there will be events like that in Neverwitner. The other thing that will promote "good" coop is having open world zones where the monsters are really tough to handle on your own. That way you will have natural grouping for players that want to get through this zone. Open a world PvP areas - mix PvP and PvE and you will have even more natural grouping happen on it's own.
Love your sig. So true and this thread shows it to a T.
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shiaikaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
Hmm. The Control Wizard gameplay video thing gave me the impression that the world was indeed open. I agree that's not what D&D is about though and would prefer self-enclosed story-focused adventures.
We'll find out soon though.
Well, does not Neverwinter allow you to log in with your friends and together stick to do Foundry missions only? You should be able to ignore all the content and just do Foundry quests done by a friend, for example. Right? May include having to walk all over Neverwinter city to quest giver to quest giver but not big deal.
Hmm. The Control Wizard gameplay video thing gave me the impression that the world was indeed open. I agree that's not what D&D is about though and would prefer self-enclosed story-focused adventures.
We'll find out soon though.
Then play the game that way, it is totally your choice. Play the Cryptic provided campaign that is inferred to be like a stand alone RPG. The main campaign after all was developed for a single player/coop game that NW was originally going to be before PWE acquired Cryptic and PWE gave them the option (or required them) to make it into an MMORPG.
No, not exactly in fact the ghosts and goblins you see running from "the 5" are all on their way to the Frankenstein Mansion.. but I recently heard it's being switched from a GSORPG... "graveyard smash online role playing game" to an MMORPG "monster mash online role playing game, so there's still hope .. -- Thanks to Boris for the memo!
Well, does not Neverwinter allow you to log in with your friends and together stick to do Foundry missions only? You should be able to ignore all the content and just do Foundry quests done by a friend, for example. Right? May include having to walk all over Neverwinter city to quest giver to quest giver but not big deal.
Then play the game that way, it is totally your choice. Play the Cryptic provided campaign that is inferred to be like a stand alone RPG. The main campaign after all was developed for a single player/coop game that NW was originally going to be before PWE acquired Cryptic and PWE gave them the option (or required them) to make it into an MMORPG.
Absolutely. Wasn't complaining. I'll still play the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the open world portion. Just wouldn't have been my choice.
As much as I miss the old days of early EQ and DAoC where 'raiding' as people define it today didn't really exist I get more concerned about the RPG part of the acronym getting ignored and devalued than the MMO part mutating definitions for some.
Indeed, this is a much more important problem. Roleplaying is dying to expedience and lack of attention span.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Raids? RAIDS?! What do you kids know about raids? Try getting 60 guildies together to run over to NToV, and defend it against another guild trying to leap frog ya, all while getting trained by a bard that no one knows...
LOL Raids.
Oh and yeah Neverwinter is an MMO...the RPG part not so much.
It's silly to think people who want to play a video game should go back to Baldur's Gate or otherwise play older games. The folks who want to play alone or perhaps with one or two friends aren't at fault for the evolution of video games. It seems most games are going online now & I'm sure the producers hope they are "massive". They wouldn't get much money otherwise.
Skyrim is going online. Neverwinter is going online. These are, in my opinion, some of the best games ever. Are people who don't want to play with 40 strangers really supposed to play old, out-dated games moving forward? The progression of gaming is moving in the same direction as much other software - online. It's great that people can play with each other, get into groups, etc. Personally, I like playing with other people. I also enjoy soloing. I don't believe in forced cooperation though. If the developers have half a wit (which it seems like they do), they would avoid this. Not everyone wants that and potential customers may not log on, play, or pay.
The people themselves should be able to make the determination. The ability is there and if enough people want into groups, then great! If someone is sitting around trying to group and nobody wants to, then all that says is that it isn't what people want. It should be their choice. Any time I see people suggesting that because a game is labeled "MMO" then grouping should somehow be mandatory all I can think is this is a horrible self-serving agenda. It reeks of people trying to make others do what they want rather than live and let live, each according to their own style.
To re-iterate, it is my belief that, whether people like it or not, more and more of the modern games are starting to go online. There is likely a large audience of people who may not like to group. If so, then a company that takes them into consideration may stand to make a lot of money. As long as grouping options are available, people who enjoy that style will also have what they want. It is a potential win-win for the developer; however, if they don’t cater to soloist, they are losing that market from the start. That doesn’t sound like a winning strategy to me. If the game is great and lots of people play, then the company may make a lot of money, regardless of whether anyone is grouping at all. The merit of the game itself will decide this. If there are vibrant pugs and large guilds (which I believe there will be), then everyone is happy!
As much as I miss the old days of early EQ and DAoC where 'raiding' as people define it today didn't really exist I get more concerned about the RPG part of the acronym getting ignored and devalued than the MMO part mutating definitions for some.
While I never RP'ed in the sense of what you describe I always considered the RPG portion of the definition to mean: Playing a role within a progression based game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
In my opinion, to make the Massively part od MMORPG appeal to the masses you need to have Solo, Small Group, Large Group and so called Raid content. Everyone has a preference and should not be excluded due to the fact they like to Solo or they want to sit by a forge and craft all day. To each their own.
The Liver is Evil and must be punished!! Drink More Beer!
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mastrshadowMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
A rose by any other name...
It will be whatever it is regardless of what we call it now. Whether you feel it's an MMO or just a MO is to be decided after you play.
It depends on how you define "MMORPG". If you define it in a way that most people in the industry would accept, and in which there are many MMORPGs, then yes. If you define it in a way that most people in the industry wouldn't accept, and in which there are only a couple of MMORPGs and dozens of undefined games in some other genre that's not really named in most places, then it's not.
Define it how you like. Don't expect to see the MMO press leave it out of their coverage of MMORPGs, though, because it meets most people's definition.
Let me define MMORPG: Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Any more questions I'm sure a dictionary can answer.
Game genres are just as bad as music genres or even stereotypes. Making something fit a certain "genre" does nothing more then limit it's ability to BE ORIGINAL. So stop complaining or caring about whether a game is truly some genre or the other, or use normal words instead of skewed terms to discuss your likes or dislikes for a game.
Is Neverwinter an MMO? Obviously...and MMORPG? It's based on the D&D ruleset...if the RPG can't be tagged along with the MMO, then they're doing it wrong
Comments
Many people call their monitor a "computer". Doesn't make it true.
I also just want to point out that if you're defining an MMO as an ability to go into an instance as a party with a large group of people, than Battlefield is an MMO (32 players per team, single instance of the map per server).
Now if you want to use the proper definition, an MMO is any game that is considered a "Massive multiplayer", meaning a considerable number of players per shard. Planetside 2 is an example of an MMO from an FPS perspective. That doesn't fit into your "modern" description of an MMO. No RAIDs there.
But keep calling that monitor a computer.
That said PvP is NOT limited to some 5vs5. Developers in these Forums have told that there will be support for BIG Battlegrounds! Remember Alterac Valley 40 vs 40 from WOW? I would guess biggest PvP Battlegrounds will be in that class and they will also contain forest and other environment.
This game will not have so insane huge PvP fights as Guild Wars 2 with up to 2000 players in the Mist PvP. However I think that is good that not so big PvP battles will exist since that will give less CPU system requirements.
I will buy later this year a super Haswell Desktop. That said this game should also be playable with a gaming laptop. I think WOW sized Battlegrounds is a good target.
There are also Even in this game and certainly more power progression then silly carebear game Guild Wars 2. This game seems to me more like a MMO then Guild Wars 2! However yes WOW is more MMO like. That said maybe one day day this game will with an expansion pack also get Raids.
.
Have to agree with this. Words especially in the english language are fluid. Here is a simple example the word mouse while retaining its original definition has gained a second one in my lifetime. There was a word that meant happy that has gained another definition.
Here here.
I really agree with this opinion and have to say well said Abisinisterr
1 huge seamless world... no instancing... complete freedom to go anywhere and do anything... That game was the best... nothing since ever came close for me... played for 3 years daily.... Ah so many memories.. I am actually surprised its still up and running since it first came out in 1999... it's nothing like it was though anymore...
So, WoW is also not one. Good to know.
Don't even bother. In his vision Asherons call is the only MMORPG ever made.
If you can meet up with thousands of players and chat and join a party to play with them then its an MMORPG nowadays.
(simplest answer in a while now
Darn you!!!! I was going to say that when I first saw this thread yesterday morning! But I told my self "No, your just in a bad mood right now. If you don't have anything constructive to say don't post in this thread. It's not yours to worry about."
I am very excited about this game. That being said, I don't know if I would say this is a "real mmo". The reason I say this is because I don't think there is massively open world. I think the town is public to all at the same time. It's your social area where you can meet up with people, hang out, shop... so on and so forth. You also get quests there. Once you receive quests and get your team together, you then go to the area where your quest(s) take place, and it's instanced for your group only. I don't think there is an open are where everyone is just out in the world killing monsters. This is the way it seems like it is to me... I could be completely wrong... We who are in beta will know Friday.
That being said, I am happy if that is the way it is. Remember, this is based off of D&D, and D&D isn't about raids. It's about a group of adventurers going on dungeon delves. It's suppose to be a party made up Warrior, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard. Whether the warrior is a Ranger or Paladin, the rogue a Thief or an Assassin, the cleric a Devout Priest or a Battle Cleric and the wizard a Mage or a Necromancer, it's always been about small groups doing big things.
That's not to say there isn't room for more things like raids and huge battles that involve taking castles and things like that, but I don't mind if those things come later.
It is an MMO in the sense that 1000's of players will be on the same server getting together to do things. That is all I need for the first M to be in MMO.
We'll find out soon though.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?23621-Meet-the-developers&p=365691&viewfull=1#post365691
"Neverwinter, like our previous games, is not a seamless world but rather a collection of persistent zones, instances, arenas and dynamic events. Zones are large persistent areas that contain open world quests, doors to instanced quest areas like sewers and caves, dynamic contests and queued zone events. Each zone has its own large dungeon that requires a group to complete and also ties off the story arc for that zone."
Haha, good one!
Lol, why are people arguing about what MMORPG stands for. It is a very general term and essentially means what is stated. Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. The MMO part is extremely simple. It is a game where heaps of people can jump in together. That's it. Nothing to do with raids, open zones, instanced zones, pvp, pve, or whatever else you might make up. It is simply a game where many people can interact online simultaneously. Now, the RPG on the other hand is more up for debate. :P
In fact I find that finding 5 random people to do a dungeon for an hour is much more "massive" than putting myself in a group of the same 20 people every week for 5-10 hours killing the same bosses and having the same stupid problems over and over again.
I think coop should be part of the MMORPG genre but it should not be forced upon people and organized coop is the worst kind of coop ever as you never meet new people doing it. I think that there should be zone events like in GW2 and Rift and Cryptic already confirmed that there will be events like that in Neverwitner. The other thing that will promote "good" coop is having open world zones where the monsters are really tough to handle on your own. That way you will have natural grouping for players that want to get through this zone. Open a world PvP areas - mix PvP and PvE and you will have even more natural grouping happen on it's own.
Love your sig. So true and this thread shows it to a T.
Then play the game that way, it is totally your choice. Play the Cryptic provided campaign that is inferred to be like a stand alone RPG. The main campaign after all was developed for a single player/coop game that NW was originally going to be before PWE acquired Cryptic and PWE gave them the option (or required them) to make it into an MMORPG.
No, not exactly in fact the ghosts and goblins you see running from "the 5" are all on their way to the Frankenstein Mansion.. but I recently heard it's being switched from a GSORPG... "graveyard smash online role playing game" to an MMORPG "monster mash online role playing game, so there's still hope .. -- Thanks to Boris for the memo!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeZftK2kO6U
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Absolutely. Wasn't complaining. I'll still play the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the open world portion. Just wouldn't have been my choice.
Indeed, this is a much more important problem. Roleplaying is dying to expedience and lack of attention span.
LOL Raids.
Oh and yeah Neverwinter is an MMO...the RPG part not so much.
/open can o worms
Skyrim is going online. Neverwinter is going online. These are, in my opinion, some of the best games ever. Are people who don't want to play with 40 strangers really supposed to play old, out-dated games moving forward? The progression of gaming is moving in the same direction as much other software - online. It's great that people can play with each other, get into groups, etc. Personally, I like playing with other people. I also enjoy soloing. I don't believe in forced cooperation though. If the developers have half a wit (which it seems like they do), they would avoid this. Not everyone wants that and potential customers may not log on, play, or pay.
The people themselves should be able to make the determination. The ability is there and if enough people want into groups, then great! If someone is sitting around trying to group and nobody wants to, then all that says is that it isn't what people want. It should be their choice. Any time I see people suggesting that because a game is labeled "MMO" then grouping should somehow be mandatory all I can think is this is a horrible self-serving agenda. It reeks of people trying to make others do what they want rather than live and let live, each according to their own style.
To re-iterate, it is my belief that, whether people like it or not, more and more of the modern games are starting to go online. There is likely a large audience of people who may not like to group. If so, then a company that takes them into consideration may stand to make a lot of money. As long as grouping options are available, people who enjoy that style will also have what they want. It is a potential win-win for the developer; however, if they don’t cater to soloist, they are losing that market from the start. That doesn’t sound like a winning strategy to me. If the game is great and lots of people play, then the company may make a lot of money, regardless of whether anyone is grouping at all. The merit of the game itself will decide this. If there are vibrant pugs and large guilds (which I believe there will be), then everyone is happy!
You do realize the lack of or inclusion of raids means nothing to the definition of an MMO.
The proper definition is a game which is persistant, online, supporting many players on a server like structure. Nothing else and nothing more.
Character is what a man is in the dark
Not to be blunt, but i couldn't care less. This is what i read in numerous thread in MMO-Champion.
I thought it was consensus. It is not ---> /shrug.
St. Augustinus
While I never RP'ed in the sense of what you describe I always considered the RPG portion of the definition to mean: Playing a role within a progression based game.
Character is what a man is in the dark
It will be whatever it is regardless of what we call it now. Whether you feel it's an MMO or just a MO is to be decided after you play.
It depends on how you define "MMORPG". If you define it in a way that most people in the industry would accept, and in which there are many MMORPGs, then yes. If you define it in a way that most people in the industry wouldn't accept, and in which there are only a couple of MMORPGs and dozens of undefined games in some other genre that's not really named in most places, then it's not.
Define it how you like. Don't expect to see the MMO press leave it out of their coverage of MMORPGs, though, because it meets most people's definition.
Game genres are just as bad as music genres or even stereotypes. Making something fit a certain "genre" does nothing more then limit it's ability to BE ORIGINAL. So stop complaining or caring about whether a game is truly some genre or the other, or use normal words instead of skewed terms to discuss your likes or dislikes for a game.
Is Neverwinter an MMO? Obviously...and MMORPG? It's based on the D&D ruleset...if the RPG can't be tagged along with the MMO, then they're doing it wrong