Please correct me if I missed something on the forums (I tried to catch things up). But as I understand it if you make a GWF, and you later want to go Sword and Board style (due to some loot or trades).
You are sorta out of luck for your character.
Or am I missing something in the game setup? This narrow pidgeon-holeing of characters and their feat trees could very well be a disaster.
Having everything defined for a fighter based on a weapon (equipment) choice that is locked in at 1st level is... well... difficult to equate to DnD.
quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Yeah, so far it looks like Great Weapon Fighter and Guardian Fighter are completely different classes, no more related than a Cleric and a Wizard.
It's definitely not an ideal way to do it. Really given the current mechanics, the two Fighters should be renamed (say, to "Slayer" and "Guardian"), and not called "Fighter" at all, but that's not really an option given the weight of PnP tradition.
Of course, I'd rather they dropped the current mechanics, and made GWF and Guardian just different default builds for Fighter, with others possible with customization. But that would probably require an overhaul that they're not willing to do.
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zenzeeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Having everything defined for a fighter based on a weapon (equipment) choice that is locked in at 1st level is... well... difficult to equate to DnD.
Ham
Never played D&D 3.x or 4e? The Table Top game system pushes you (as a Fighter) to pick a weapon and stick with it for all 20-30 levels. This is pure 3-4e D&D.
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denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
That is to be said. Maybe you can choose a very tanky paragon path for your GWF and being able to easily off-tank. Or some defensive feats.
I think it's more than black (tank) and white (gwf pure dps): there are many shades of grey (no, not 30). What we don't know is whether those shades will be viable.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
I'll confirm, treat them as separate classes except for certain Non Weapon skills.
Never played D&D 3.x or 4e? The Table Top game system pushes you (as a Fighter) to pick a weapon and stick with it for all 20-30 levels. This is pure 3-4e D&D.
I played 3.5 for many years and still do and you most certainly can do both sword and board and use a great weapon. In fact you could also have a crossbow, javeling, bow etc as well. You can specialize in multiple weapons as well if you so desired.
As for 4e i really can't say since i played it once and hated every moment of it. Its quite frankly a different game from AD&D, 2, 3 and 3.5.
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I played 3.5 for many years and still do and you most certainly can do both sword and board and use a great weapon. In fact you could also have a crossbow, javeling, bow etc as well. You can specialize in multiple weapons as well if you so desired.
You can do all sorts of things. But you just end up being even more gimped on an already severely gimped class. The mechanics of the fighter in 3.5 strongly encourage specialization.
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denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You can do all sorts of things. But you just end up being even more gimped on an already severely gimped class. The mechanics of the fighter in 3.5 strongly encourage specialization.
I'll second (third?) this notion. The weapon focus feats were just too indispensable for a fighter not to take without hamstringing them. And that means picking one kind of weapon and sticking with it so you get all those weapon focus bonuses.
I've made peace with being pigeon-holed. It's going to happen regardless of how many bad builds that the devs throw in there.
The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
One thing I liked about D&D was that you could specialize in many things, and still be very powerful. As a ranger/shadowdancer, I've used Rapier/Shortsword, with epic weapon focus feats all the way through level 40. A fighter could easily focus in 3-4 weapons, and get all of their epic specialization feats, due to epic feat gains, and still have room for many of the greater strength or greater constitution feats, and other epic goodies fighters can get, such as great cleave and the like. Friends have told me I should just accept that this game isn't really D&D, but something all of its own. I know personally if I don't take it that way, I'll just be disappointed. My preference would be a D&D 3.0 rule set with perhaps a tweaked magic system, but they've gone entirely away from the D&D combat system from what I can tell without actually playing the game. So really, in the end, it's the D&D name on something different. Not necesarily bad, but it could leave a bad taste if you expect to play the system successfully based on prior D&D knowledge.
I am hoping for a Barbarian or they could call it "Barbaric Fighter" in this game, or whatever. Just as long as its something of a duel wielding melee class that can wear medium armor.
Part of this pretty much stems from 4th edition, there is no real fighter class as understood from 3.5. This in actuality makes a great deal of sense, since a fighter that has focused on one way of fighting is going to want to stick with that. Doing sword and board and two handed is a very different experience. I would argue that there should be a range of freedom a great weapon fighter should be able to pick up a shield, but shouldn't expect to be the best at it. For those that play lotro for example think about a champ slotting for shield use or a guardian switching out his sword and shield for a two handed weapon, 4 or so skills are cut off since they are shield dependent. But this is just a casual observance, balance and such things I trust entirely to devs. When things go live I am sure there will be good.
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denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I am hoping for a Barbarian or they could call it "Barbaric Fighter" in this game, or whatever. Just as long as its something of a duel wielding melee class that can wear medium armor.
Well, in 4e Barbs use big 2h weapons, usually, but there's also a dual wielding build (WW). I hope they put it in the game, since it's a really fun class to play in pnp.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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zenzeeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I am hoping for a Barbarian or they could call it "Barbaric Fighter" in this game, or whatever. Just as long as its something of a duel wielding melee class that can wear medium armor.
There is no medium armour in 4e. Barbarians (which used both two handed or dual weapons) wore light, typically Hide armour, which with their high dex (on average) benefited them more than heavier armour.
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denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There is no medium armour in 4e. Barbarians (which used both two handed or dual weapons) wore light, typically Hide armour, which with their high dex (on average) benefited them more than heavier armour.
I remember the time before the nerf of Hide Armor Expertise, when RB barbs had the highest armor in the game.
Now you have to invest at least a little in Dex, as you said.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There is no medium armour in 4e. Barbarians (which used both two handed or dual weapons) wore light, typically Hide armour, which with their high dex (on average) benefited them more than heavier armour.
This isincorrect. Medium armor most certainly exists in the game.
This isincorrect. Medium armor most certainly exists in the game.
This is interesting, since it's different from 4e In 4e you have only light armors (cloth-leather-hide, +dex or +int to AC) and heavy armors (chain-scale-plate, no dex bonus).
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
This isincorrect. Medium armor most certainly exists in the game.
I think he/she is just talking about semantics. The 4e does classify all kinds of armor as Light/Heavy.
However that analysis is wrong as prerequisites are not based on that classification. In 4e classes wear armor based on type itself. So instead of saying(for e.g.) that cleric is proficient in heavy or light armor, we say cleric is proficient in armor upto chain.
And Cloth armor<Leather armor<Hide armor<Chainmail<Scale armor<Plate armor
Hence instead of three levels of classification, now you have richer 6 levels of classifications in armor.
So the shallow way to classify armor as light/medium/heavy is not used anymore. It is just used in language to denote armor as heavy/light - not used in mechanics. In mechanics we use 6 levels of classification individually instead of 3.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is interesting, since it's different from 4e In 4e you have only light armors (cloth-leather-hide, +dex or +int to AC) and heavy armors (chain-scale-plate, no dex bonus).
So, does this mean that characters might be able to use more than one kind of armour? Or is knowledge of this sort still covered by the NDA? I know that one of the biggest complaints about armour in most MMOs I play, is that people are restricted to X armour type, and thus a warrior, who would normally wear heavy, cannot equip regular clothing, or a character that would normally wear light armour, would could not wear heavy. I know D&D does, in general, have restrictions based on proficiency, but historically it has always allowed proficiencies to be obtained through feat selection. I'm certain there will be an outcry by a small, though sinificant portion of the community if guardian fighters have to show up to the royal ball in full plate, or if mages are forever restricted to robes.
This only really affects me in that I enjoy playing a dex-based fighter type pretty often, and while the fundamentals of a dex fighter are similar to a rogue, the nuances are different, based on feats and innate class skills/abilities. Dex builds have generally been able to reach the highest AC in previous iterations of PC Neverwinter games, which is really what I'm curious about. Ranger/Shadowdancer, or fighter/rogue with 60-70 AC was fairly easy to get with modest gear, proper buffs, and expertise. And monks were far superior in AC (80-90 range), though much less effective in offence. Such builds tend to be quite unbalancing, as anyone who doesn't fit them is an easy victim to a monster with the AB to hit them, but they are among the most effective AC/AB focused builds.
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So, does this mean that characters might be able to use more than one kind of armour? Or is knowledge of this sort still covered by the NDA? I know that one of the biggest complaints about armour in most MMOs I play, is that people are restricted to X armour type, and thus a warrior, who would normally wear heavy, cannot equip regular clothing, or a character that would normally wear light armour, would could not wear heavy. I know D&D does, in general, have restrictions based on proficiency, but historically it has always allowed proficiencies to be obtained through feat selection. I'm certain there will be an outcry by a small, though sinificant portion of the community if guardian fighters have to show up to the royal ball in full plate, or if mages are forever restricted to robes.
Armor is completely tied to class in Neverwinter. So, yeah, typical MMO armor, not D&D armor. That discussion was about tabletop D&D. We don't know if there might be some way to use another class's armor through feats or something, but I doubt it.
This only really affects me in that I enjoy playing a dex-based fighter type pretty often, and while the fundamentals of a dex fighter are similar to a rogue, the nuances are different, based on feats and innate class skills/abilities. Dex builds have generally been able to reach the highest AC in previous iterations of PC Neverwinter games, which is really what I'm curious about. Ranger/Shadowdancer, or fighter/rogue with 60-70 AC was fairly easy to get with modest gear, proper buffs, and expertise. And monks were far superior in AC (80-90 range), though much less effective in offence. Such builds tend to be quite unbalancing, as anyone who doesn't fit them is an easy victim to a monster with the AB to hit them, but they are among the most effective AC/AB focused builds.
I doubt there will be a DEX-based Fighter option in Neverwinter. You won't get one unless they specifically release a DEX-based Fighter class. I don't think you'll even have the option of making DEX your highest stat at character creation as a Fighter. Last I saw, you just get a choice of two arrays, and both place the highest in your class's primary stat (STR for the Fighter classes that will be in at launch).
Basically, unlike the Neverwinter Nights games, Neverwinter has almost nothing to do with D&D mechanics, of any edition. Its ties are lore and terminology, and little else.
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bloodsuckingparasiteMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
It's a shame seeing a game that had so many possibilities being turned into a game with so few. They really should change it so a character can use a wider amount of equipment. Perhaps treating the classes themselves as archetypes then allowing us to pick the subclass (Great weapon fighter or Guardian). Then perhaps there could be an NPC that allows us to change or subclass if we don't like it or perhaps by having different gear it'd change the role of character. So if you have a greatsword, you're classified as a striker and if you go S&B you are classified as a guardian. At this point it seems like they're tieing abilities to the weapons the class uses, so based on the equipment used it'd change the available abilities the player could use.
However, that's just from what I can see at first glance, maybe things will be different.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Dexterity can play a part with both Fighters but NDA means I can't specify. And yes, armor is class specific and not done as per the D&D 4E PH for all classes. That's as much as I can detail.
Dexterity can play a part with both Fighters but NDA means I can't specify. And yes, armor is class specific and not done as per the D&D 4E PH for all classes. That's as much as I can detail.
Oh, I don't doubt that Dexterity plays a role for Fighters (secondary stats seems to be something they're keeping from 4E), just that there won't be Dex-based Fighters in the way they are possible in 3.X (and hence NWN and DDO).
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denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Oh, I don't doubt that Dexterity plays a role for Fighters (secondary stats seems to be something they're keeping from 4E), just that there won't be Dex-based Fighters in the way they are possible in 3.X (and hence NWN and DDO).
Well, not even tempest fighter is dex based in 4e. It's still Str based with a strong dex secondary.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Oooo...does that mean we cant be a dual wielding fighter?
There is no announced dual wielding Fighter class for Neverwinter. So no, not yet. It'll probably be a while, if ever, since dual wielding Ranger will probably come first.
Although, in 4E, a Ranger can be built to be almost indistinguishable from a dual-wielding Fighter, thematically, so a separate dual-wielding Fighter class might be redundant in Neverwinter.
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lordarkaineMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 9Arc User
There is no announced dual wielding Fighter class for Neverwinter. So no, not yet. It'll probably be a while, if ever, since dual wielding Ranger will probably come first.
Although, in 4E, a Ranger can be built to be almost indistinguishable from a dual-wielding Fighter, thematically, so a separate dual-wielding Fighter class might be redundant in Neverwinter.
That's really not the case as Rangers and Fighters would still have unique abilities that the other does not. 4th edition is much more Ability-oriented and much less Feat-oriented than 3rd edition. The characters one can create with 3e could certainly make a ranger indistinguishable from a fighter, but 4e has more flavor than just your feat choices.
Slayer is also a Dex and Str based fighter in 4e PnP, an excellent dps class for both melee and range but they tend to wear leather / hide armour and have very low health due to low Con.
I am surprise this wasn't choose over the 2 handed fighter to give more options to players. Although if I am cynical 2H fighter is restricted purely to 2handed weapons and thus is less work in terms of animation and coding.
Comments
It's definitely not an ideal way to do it. Really given the current mechanics, the two Fighters should be renamed (say, to "Slayer" and "Guardian"), and not called "Fighter" at all, but that's not really an option given the weight of PnP tradition.
Of course, I'd rather they dropped the current mechanics, and made GWF and Guardian just different default builds for Fighter, with others possible with customization. But that would probably require an overhaul that they're not willing to do.
Never played D&D 3.x or 4e? The Table Top game system pushes you (as a Fighter) to pick a weapon and stick with it for all 20-30 levels. This is pure 3-4e D&D.
I think it's more than black (tank) and white (gwf pure dps): there are many shades of grey (no, not 30). What we don't know is whether those shades will be viable.
St. Augustinus
// What we do Alive // ToRN \\ Echoes in Eternity \\
The 19th Battalion
"Captain's Company"
[CURRENTLY RECRUITING]
I played 3.5 for many years and still do and you most certainly can do both sword and board and use a great weapon. In fact you could also have a crossbow, javeling, bow etc as well. You can specialize in multiple weapons as well if you so desired.
As for 4e i really can't say since i played it once and hated every moment of it. Its quite frankly a different game from AD&D, 2, 3 and 3.5.
You can do all sorts of things. But you just end up being even more gimped on an already severely gimped class. The mechanics of the fighter in 3.5 strongly encourage specialization.
As 3.5 is different from ad&d and 2nd edition.
St. Augustinus
I'll second (third?) this notion. The weapon focus feats were just too indispensable for a fighter not to take without hamstringing them. And that means picking one kind of weapon and sticking with it so you get all those weapon focus bonuses.
I've made peace with being pigeon-holed. It's going to happen regardless of how many bad builds that the devs throw in there.
Well, in 4e Barbs use big 2h weapons, usually, but there's also a dual wielding build (WW). I hope they put it in the game, since it's a really fun class to play in pnp.
St. Augustinus
There is no medium armour in 4e. Barbarians (which used both two handed or dual weapons) wore light, typically Hide armour, which with their high dex (on average) benefited them more than heavier armour.
I remember the time before the nerf of Hide Armor Expertise, when RB barbs had the highest armor in the game.
Now you have to invest at least a little in Dex, as you said.
St. Augustinus
This isincorrect. Medium armor most certainly exists in the game.
This is interesting, since it's different from 4e In 4e you have only light armors (cloth-leather-hide, +dex or +int to AC) and heavy armors (chain-scale-plate, no dex bonus).
St. Augustinus
However that analysis is wrong as prerequisites are not based on that classification. In 4e classes wear armor based on type itself. So instead of saying(for e.g.) that cleric is proficient in heavy or light armor, we say cleric is proficient in armor upto chain.
And Cloth armor<Leather armor<Hide armor<Chainmail<Scale armor<Plate armor
Hence instead of three levels of classification, now you have richer 6 levels of classifications in armor.
So the shallow way to classify armor as light/medium/heavy is not used anymore. It is just used in language to denote armor as heavy/light - not used in mechanics. In mechanics we use 6 levels of classification individually instead of 3.
Brain HAMSTER that is correct.
This only really affects me in that I enjoy playing a dex-based fighter type pretty often, and while the fundamentals of a dex fighter are similar to a rogue, the nuances are different, based on feats and innate class skills/abilities. Dex builds have generally been able to reach the highest AC in previous iterations of PC Neverwinter games, which is really what I'm curious about. Ranger/Shadowdancer, or fighter/rogue with 60-70 AC was fairly easy to get with modest gear, proper buffs, and expertise. And monks were far superior in AC (80-90 range), though much less effective in offence. Such builds tend to be quite unbalancing, as anyone who doesn't fit them is an easy victim to a monster with the AB to hit them, but they are among the most effective AC/AB focused builds.
Armor is completely tied to class in Neverwinter. So, yeah, typical MMO armor, not D&D armor. That discussion was about tabletop D&D. We don't know if there might be some way to use another class's armor through feats or something, but I doubt it.
I doubt there will be a DEX-based Fighter option in Neverwinter. You won't get one unless they specifically release a DEX-based Fighter class. I don't think you'll even have the option of making DEX your highest stat at character creation as a Fighter. Last I saw, you just get a choice of two arrays, and both place the highest in your class's primary stat (STR for the Fighter classes that will be in at launch).
Basically, unlike the Neverwinter Nights games, Neverwinter has almost nothing to do with D&D mechanics, of any edition. Its ties are lore and terminology, and little else.
However, that's just from what I can see at first glance, maybe things will be different.
Oh, I don't doubt that Dexterity plays a role for Fighters (secondary stats seems to be something they're keeping from 4E), just that there won't be Dex-based Fighters in the way they are possible in 3.X (and hence NWN and DDO).
Well, not even tempest fighter is dex based in 4e. It's still Str based with a strong dex secondary.
St. Augustinus
This is what I'm hoping for in a future release.
There is no announced dual wielding Fighter class for Neverwinter. So no, not yet. It'll probably be a while, if ever, since dual wielding Ranger will probably come first.
Although, in 4E, a Ranger can be built to be almost indistinguishable from a dual-wielding Fighter, thematically, so a separate dual-wielding Fighter class might be redundant in Neverwinter.
I am surprise this wasn't choose over the 2 handed fighter to give more options to players. Although if I am cynical 2H fighter is restricted purely to 2handed weapons and thus is less work in terms of animation and coding.