denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Specific class gear, hopefully, won't cover ALL gear slots. While it's true that 4e d&d has great item sets that scream "CLERIC" or "PALADIN" when you look at them, in the pnp game there's not something limited by class. There are some items limited by race, though (but general consensus is that they shouldn't be limited at all).
These are mostly my concerns: while it's good that we have tiered sets for all classes, i hope that i will able to wear something else on my cleric, except the usual boring 1h mace.
Itemization, on the other hand, seems pretty well done: they didn't fall into the "healer" trap (aka assigning a stats ONLY for +healz, so healers are kinda gimped outside instances) and clerics will be able to deal at least some damage with +power.
ArP, Power, Critical% and damage are the usual stats covered by every mmo, and i'm happy about them.
I wonder what will be the main stats for Wizards, though...
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
*snip*
ArP, Power, Critical% and damage are the usual stats covered by every mmo, and i'm happy about them.
I wonder what will be the main stats for Wizards, though...
This is what worries me I would rather avoid what every other mmo has for some thing better suited to DnD. I would dislike if they simply ported the same kind of armor say Forsaken World has, it would kind of limit your options.
For example if I was trying to make a crit build on a paladin I would hate to then see all the best crit enhancing gear to be rogue or archer class only.
Example rogues get a "bracer of uber crit" that increases crit by 1000% but alas it's rogue only and then the pally only has access to a bracer of uber crit but that only increases by 500%
It's one thing I like about ddo even though some raid gear is made with one class in mind other classes can use it too like the tharnes goggles or the torq.
It's one thing I like about ddo even though some raid gear is made with one class in mind other classes can use it too like the tharnes goggles or the torq.
Well, this may happen also in NO. Maybe the only class-reserved parts of equipment will be the main ones, and you can switch the others. I don't know, time will tell.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
Well, this may happen also in NO. Maybe the only class-reserved parts of equipment will be the main ones, and you can switch the others. I don't know, time will tell.
Could be but I would awfully enjoy to be able to get in alpha early enough so I could add my input but seems at this rate it's a wash, input is pretty much not listened to IMO if you only are able to get into Beta.
Could be but I would awfully enjoy to be able to get in alpha early enough so I could add my input but seems at this rate it's a wash, input is pretty much not listened to IMO if you only are able to get into Beta.
I really despise class based equipment.
Even then, unless it's a major bug or something Like Ilum in SWTOR that was just horribly broken devs don't listen. I have heard this many times from producers and devlopers:
This isn't their vision it's mine, if they are ever allowed to make a MMO then they can make their vision.
And yes it is always said with a arrogant contemptuous tone; Personally I never understood class based gear as it pigeon holes a lot of possibilities...but you're not going to get them to change it, as the devs are making the game to their likes and desires not ours, all you can do in any game is hope those wants and desires match up with at least some of yours.
Class based gear is bad for the game over all. Part of what made DnD for me was the lack of restrictions. Outside of the standard thieves can't wear plate etc, there should be no restrictions. Class restricted gear leads to everyone of a specific class ending up looking the same. Gear should be something you have to think about, is this +1 BP I'm wearing better than this +3 Chainmail of axeblocking I just found.
This isn't their vision it's mine, if they are ever allowed to make a MMO then they can make their vision.
Personally, I think this is exactly how devs should be. Stick to their vision of the game, rather than trying to please a horde of people who can never be pleased. It's listening to the playerbase that causes games to be watered down until they are indistinguishable from one another.
You like one thing, I like another, Joe over there likes something else, it just goes on and on. Trying to please all of us means it most likely pleases none of us, and it ends up looking like every other game out there as they chase the majority opinion just like everyone else. So yes, please, I hope the devs continue to think 'this is our game, we'll make it how we want it to be.'
Personally, I think this is exactly how devs should be. Stick to their vision of the game, rather than trying to please a horde of people who can never be pleased. It's listening to the playerbase that causes games to be watered down until they are indistinguishable from one another.
You like one thing, I like another, Joe over there likes something else, it just goes on and on. Trying to please all of us means it most likely pleases none of us, and it ends up looking like every other game out there as they chase the majority opinion just like everyone else. So yes, please, I hope the devs continue to think 'this is our game, we'll make it how we want it to be.'
I think this would be true if it weren't for the D&D name being slapped on it. The franchise has set standards, like being able to equip stuff cross-class (at a penalty, of course, but nevertheless). To me, it's not so much trying to please everyone as it is being faithful to the system, and if you truly respect the D&D mechanics and stay true to those, then you won't have a lot of complaints. Most of the ranting might come from people who don't know the rules, are new to D&D, or those who DO just want another MMORPG clone-of-something-that's-already-out.
Whether the dev's "vision" of the game is the same as the D&D fanbase's, or even WotC's for that matter, I can't really say.
I think this would be true if it weren't for the D&D name being slapped on it. The franchise has set standards, like being able to equip stuff cross-class (at a penalty, of course, but nevertheless). To me, it's not so much trying to please everyone as it is being faithful to the system, and if you truly respect the D&D mechanics and stay true to those, then you won't have a lot of complaints. Most of the ranting might come from people who don't know the rules, are new to D&D, or those who DO just want another MMORPG clone-of-something-that's-already-out.
Yes and no, I think. Sure it is D&D, but there is a conversion that is happening, from pen and paper to MMO. As with any conversion, which rules get kept, thrown out or modified is a choice the devs will make based on their vision of the game and what they want it to be.
There are many things that happen in an MMO that don't happen in a pnp game, and vice versa. In an MMO, you have to account for massive amounts of players, respawning mobs (I've never been in a pnp game where the goblins assaulting the town stay at the gates forever, even after you've completed the questline to go and raid the goblin village), the inability to limit item acquisition, etc etc etc all the way up to the way death is handled. Not to mention all the player who will cheat and exploit the system in any way they can find.
These things have to be accounted for. So the devs vision is just as vital in a D&D (or any other familiar setting) MMO as it is in a new franchise.
Class based gear is bad for the game over all. Part of what made DnD for me was the lack of restrictions. Outside of the standard thieves can't wear plate etc, there should be no restrictions. Class restricted gear leads to everyone of a specific class ending up looking the same. Gear should be something you have to think about, is this +1 BP I'm wearing better than this +3 Chainmail of axeblocking I just found.
I hate class based gear as well. This is the first real downer of the game so far. Hoefully they change this up and I wouldn't mid seeing a delay release to fix it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
Yes and no, I think. Sure it is D&D, but there is a conversion that is happening, from pen and paper to MMO. As with any conversion, which rules get kept, thrown out or modified is a choice the devs will make based on their vision of the game and what they want it to be.
There are many things that happen in an MMO that don't happen in a pnp game, and vice versa. In an MMO, you have to account for massive amounts of players, respawning mobs (I've never been in a pnp game where the goblins assaulting the town stay at the gates forever, even after you've completed the questline to go and raid the goblin village), the inability to limit item acquisition, etc etc etc all the way up to the way death is handled. Not to mention all the player who will cheat and exploit the system in any way they can find.
These things have to be accounted for. So the devs vision is just as vital in a D&D (or any other familiar setting) MMO as it is in a new franchise.
You're right about the conversion thing. In a perfect conversion, there would still be a turn-based battle system, so at the game's very core, it is changing. But it's unique things about D&D that really matter to the fans. Respawning and dying are basic to video games in general, no matter the genre, but D&D has specific agendas about gear equipment that, in my opinion, are easily converted to MMO gameplay (even an action MMORPG). Same with using magic or placing stats. If you can really step back and look at the basics, much of it can be with surprising accuracy to the franchise's expectations. And if you've been staring at the my-game-my-view screen for too long, you might lose sight of your objective (to please the target audience) and succumb to a superiority complex. Everyone just wants to have fun and enjoy the game, and I think most people are afraid of them taking too much control over things with their own "vision" during the testing phases and not listen to the public they're requesting help from.
Should helping make the game better be a privilege or a right?
You're right about the conversion thing. In a perfect conversion, there would still be a turn-based battle system, so at the game's very core, it is changing. But it's unique things about D&D that really matter to the fans. Respawning and dying are basic to video games in general, no matter the genre, but D&D has specific agendas about gear equipment that, in my opinion, are easily converted to MMO gameplay (even an action MMORPG). Same with using magic or placing stats. If you can really step back and look at the basics, much of it can be with surprising accuracy to the franchise's expectations. And if you've been staring at the my-game-my-view screen for too long, you might lose sight of your objective (to please the target audience) and succumb to a superiority complex. Everyone just wants to have fun and enjoy the game, and I think most people are afraid of them taking too much control over things with their own "vision" during the testing phases and not listen to the public they're requesting help from.
Should helping make the game better be a privilege or a right?
I would say it depends on how you are defining 'making the game better.'
But first, let me take a moment to define my point of view. I have been playing D&D for 30 years now, give or take a few. I have played every edition, from 1st all the way up - until 4th. I know almost nothing about 4th edition. I glanced at the books, did not like what I saw, and walked away. So my perspective is very much an old school view of D&D.
Perhaps that's why I am having less of a problem with class based gear; in the D&D I am familiar with, while it wasn't called class locked gear or anything of the sort, the classes did not mix their gear. Warriors wore the heaviest armor they could find, thieves for leather because it was the heaviest they could wear without taking penalties to their abilities, and casters wear cloth because they have problems casting in actual armor. It wasn't that warriors or thieves were physically unable to wear robes, there was just no percentage in doing so. So I have no dissonance to class based gear in a D&D game, that is simply going back to the game's roots.
As to privilege or right - I am pretty sure that my making the game better would not be your making the game better. So I don't see how it even gets to privilege or right, because first we need to agree on what better is. And I believe that the whole 'designers listening to players' thing is a very bad idea, and shouldn't happen. Too many cooks spoil the broth, and there is no way to listen to players and not have too many cooks.
I am an author, that's how I pay my bills. When I am writing my books and articles, I do not listen to what people have to say about what I should do, I write what I think is the best story. I have the editors that I have chosen because their vision is the closest to mine, and I do not worry about what anyone else has to say. I have fans who enjoy my work, and I have critics who do not. Just as any game will have fans who enjoy it and critics who do not. I don't try and change my style hoping to gain more readers, because I think releasing what I think is the best product that displays my vision is more important.
And that is what I wish game designers would do as well.
I am an author, that's how I pay my bills. When I am writing my books and articles, I do not listen to what people have to say about what I should do, I write what I think is the best story. I have the editors that I have chosen because their vision is the closest to mine, and I do not worry about what anyone else has to say. I have fans who enjoy my work, and I have critics who do not. Just as any game will have fans who enjoy it and critics who do not. I don't try and change my style hoping to gain more readers, because I think releasing what I think is the best product that displays my vision is more important.
And that is what I wish game designers would do as well.
I won't deny that there are some very good and dedicated niche authors and indie devs out there, but you're generalizing about the industry as a whole. If you look through some of the past threads, you'll see more concern about this game going down the wrong path (PWE standard microtransactions or other financial plans, poor marketing, outcries for fixing animations or other later-unchangable things, PvP debates, etc.) rather than going down the right path.
And there are some pretty damn brilliant (even common sense) ideas from fans. But they don't want to see the game fail due to years and years of development (which could all be in vain) that could change in the blink of an eye, just like what's popular in fashion or even fictional writing.
So you have to ask the devs AND their superiors, "What's most important that this game succeeds?" I've said on multiple occasions, the most important aspect in the MMO industry is about making money, whether it's Cryptic's ideals or PWE's. And what gets them more money is more players. More players means they need to find a common ground that's popular with as many people as possible. And what's popular with as many people as possible MAY NOT be what's standard in D&D.
The question boils down to, which will the devs/pubs pursue: Money or D&D? In-game items/gear is only part of that equation. I'm not saying that their decision have been bad so far; I haven't even played any of the game or seen anything outside the videos. But remember we're talking about PWE and Cryptic's intentions toward the D&D and Forgotten Realms franchise, which many, many, many players don't want to see spoiled. Too many times have there been companies so blinded that even free fan advice could've saved them from the toilet (THQ, Square-Enix, 38 Studios, Sony in general, to name just a few....)
I won't deny that there are some very good and dedicated niche authors and indie devs out there, but you're generalizing about the industry as a whole. If you look through some of the past threads, you'll see more concern about this game going down the wrong path (PWE standard microtransactions or other financial plans, poor marketing, outcries for fixing animations or other later-unchangable things, PvP debates, etc.) rather than going down the right path.
And there are some pretty damn brilliant (even common sense) ideas from fans. But they don't want to see the game fail due to years and years of development (which could all be in vain) that could change in the blink of an eye, just like what's popular in fashion or even fictional writing.
So you have to ask the devs AND their superiors, "What's most important that this game succeeds?" I've said on multiple occasions, the most important aspect in the MMO industry is about making money, whether it's Cryptic's ideals or PWE's. And what gets them more money is more players. More players means they need to find a common ground that's popular with as many people as possible. And what's popular with as many people as possible MAY NOT be what's standard in D&D.
The question boils down to, which will the devs/pubs pursue: Money or D&D? In-game items/gear is only part of that equation. I'm not saying that their decision have been bad so far; I haven't even played any of the game or seen anything outside the videos. But remember we're talking about PWE and Cryptic's intentions toward the D&D and Forgotten Realms franchise, which many, many, many players don't want to see spoiled. Too many times have there been companies so blinded that even free fan advice could've saved them from the toilet (THQ, Square-Enix, 38 Studios, Sony in general, to name just a few....)
Quoted for great truth and justice!
Bravo
And anyone who says they shouldn't listen to the fans really needs to talk to Mr. Smedley or Daniel Erickson for a few hours, while there may be many opinions you usually can see a clear consensus on what most people think is the best thing to do in a given situation...classed based gear being one.
I think class-based gear worked well for FFXI, but it's supposed to be more open in D&D..... just for comparison sake.
0
Options
jaffrojonesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
I am looking forward to this game a lot. A LOT, A LOT. That being said, after that last "dev blog" they better just start beta now, because they are losing a lot of people. That was pretty bad. I am still going to love this game, but they are shooting themselves in the foot.
I am looking forward to this game a lot. A LOT, A LOT. That being said, after that last "dev blog" they better just start beta now, because they are losing a lot of people. That was pretty bad. I am still going to love this game, but they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Heh they have been shooting themselves in the same foot for a couple years now... most of us just chalk up the Alpha give away to yet another false start, as was said on another forum, we figure the marketing person was hired for "other reasons" than experience. :rolleyes:
Heh they have been shooting themselves in the same foot for a couple years now... most of us just chalk up the Alpha give away to yet another false start, as was said on another forum, we figure the marketing person was hired for "other reasons" than experience. :rolleyes:
For example; looking at the beautiful screenshots, I am really wondering what the Minimum system specs will be. That is info that could help me personally decide on certain parts for my upcoming computer build.
Hopefully the specs are high... I think hard core pc gamers generally have higher standards than most. If the game can run on a dinosaur machine from 7 or 8 years that won't be good. My machine being 3 years old I'm looking to put something new together as well.
0
Options
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Allright lemme smooth a few things out, but overall, I agree with the sentiments on this thread.
All people need to be looked at, but everybody can't be pleased.
If they went with a non MMO gamer's definition for the article for example, then they neglected both the hardcore MMO gamer and savvy D&D gamer in tabletop and video games like...well, like me.
But I don't know if this was their intention, just a possible thought. Bluntly, marketing may need to explain the theme of the article's "voice" because it backfired no matter what its intention.
But dumb female references on the outside sites, that's borderline insensitive to women. Heck, I rolelplay a big dumb male fighter, and yet we always seem to have the "bimbo" references. Never a himbo.
No warnings or anything since everything here is fine, just asking to reflect when saying things like this ironically saying the article's talking down yet when they are criticizing this way.
I won't deny that there are some very good and dedicated niche authors and indie devs out there, but you're generalizing about the industry as a whole. If you look through some of the past threads, you'll see more concern about this game going down the wrong path (PWE standard microtransactions or other financial plans, poor marketing, outcries for fixing animations or other later-unchangable things, PvP debates, etc.) rather than going down the right path.
And there are some pretty damn brilliant (even common sense) ideas from fans. But they don't want to see the game fail due to years and years of development (which could all be in vain) that could change in the blink of an eye, just like what's popular in fashion or even fictional writing.
So you have to ask the devs AND their superiors, "What's most important that this game succeeds?" I've said on multiple occasions, the most important aspect in the MMO industry is about making money, whether it's Cryptic's ideals or PWE's. And what gets them more money is more players. More players means they need to find a common ground that's popular with as many people as possible. And what's popular with as many people as possible MAY NOT be what's standard in D&D.
The question boils down to, which will the devs/pubs pursue: Money or D&D? In-game items/gear is only part of that equation. I'm not saying that their decision have been bad so far; I haven't even played any of the game or seen anything outside the videos. But remember we're talking about PWE and Cryptic's intentions toward the D&D and Forgotten Realms franchise, which many, many, many players don't want to see spoiled. Too many times have there been companies so blinded that even free fan advice could've saved them from the toilet (THQ, Square-Enix, 38 Studios, Sony in general, to name just a few....)
Sometime it's not simply profit or purity. Most of the time it's an agonizing compromise between the two when you have people passionate with the theme yet realistic on what will work without throwing bricks of cash and years of more time.
I think class-based gear worked well for FFXI, but it's supposed to be more open in D&D..... just for comparison sake.
Not quite. D&D tabletop 4th ed has classes assigned certain weapon and armor groups (or in wizard a very limited weapon selection and cloth armor only.) While one could make open or universal sets and assign them to "classes" it's a heck of a lot easier to assign a group of options for class restricted system speaking from a MMO development system.
Honestly, it's likely this system was already implemented in the co-op and was too set to completely redo as an open system even with a year's MMO conversion time, but this is pure speculation and has no basis in any shown history.
(See, I make it clear on my replies too if it's my opinion or speculation.)
Hopefully the specs are high... I think hard core pc gamers generally have higher standards than most. If the game can run on a dinosaur machine from 7 or 8 years that won't be good. My machine being 3 years old I'm looking to put something new together as well.
From what I have seen on the Cryptic games, expect your dual core to be your middle of the line with better specs (especially video card and RAM) offering more beautiful graphics and more processor to be able to handle it more smoothly. Yes, technically, if somebody's able to get the STO or CO to run on their system, it's likely NWO will work also, but how WELL it will look and run is a whole other discussion.
However, the company still hasn't released an official minimum/current specs, just based on prior experience with their game clients.
But dumb female references on the outside sites, that's borderline insensitive to women. Heck, I rolelplay a big dumb male fighter, and yet we always seem to have the "bimbo" references. Never a himbo.
And now whenever I see truth post the first thing that is going to come to mind is 'Heh. Himbo.'
Go on addressing the points, but not sure I completely agree with the 'Classes are boxed into their equipment'. They start out that way, sure, but then you have things like racial proficiencies and feats that let you deviate quickly. That is part of the fun.
Example? Swordmage with a polearm, whaaa? Oh, because a Glaive is a H.Blade/Polearm. Problem solved. Now go pick up some polearm feats. Or (to be more vanilla 4e) a dwarf rogue with a warhammer.
If it wasn't for all the spreadsheet gaming from D&D twinks and munchkins we wouldnt have the card game Munchkin. Obviously there is a market for it!
Actually most of the negative comments are more towards the pointless blog and the horrible PR work which it is. When you don't provide any sort of details to promote the game and everyone has to base past title performances then yeah... there are gonna be a bunch of naysayers. If Cryptic seriously wants to promote the game then they need to produce some quality PR work.
Hopefully the specs are high... I think hard core pc gamers generally have higher standards than most. If the game can run on a dinosaur machine from 7 or 8 years that won't be good. My machine being 3 years old I'm looking to put something new together as well.
That would be <ridiculous>. You'll be singling out the majority of you customers, hard-core gamers are the very minority. Specs should be moderate like GW2 specs but certainly not high specs.
0
Options
denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That would be <ridiculous>. You'll be singling out the majority of you customers, hard-core gamers are the very minority. Specs should be moderate like GW2 specs but certainly not high specs.
I agree, MMORPG shouldn't have high end hardware requirements.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
Allright lemme smooth a few things out, but overall, I agree with the sentiments on this thread.
All people need to be looked at, but everybody can't be pleased.
If they went with a non MMO gamer's definition for the article for example, then they neglected both the hardcore MMO gamer and savvy D&D gamer in tabletop and video games like...well, like me.
But I don't know if this was their intention, just a possible thought. Bluntly, marketing may need to explain the theme of the article's "voice" because it backfired no matter what its intention.
But dumb female references on the outside sites, that's borderline insensitive to women. Heck, I rolelplay a big dumb male fighter, and yet we always seem to have the "bimbo" references. Never a himbo.
No warnings or anything since everything here is fine, just asking to reflect when saying things like this ironically saying the article's talking down yet when they are criticizing this way.
'Nuff said.
.
Interesting considering my wife was the one who sent me the image, it was more about intelligence (or lack thereof) how the industry works and situations I found myself in at both QOL and Turbine than gender. However I do see how someone could take it the wrong way.
The thing is Truth; no matter how much we complain about this incredibly inept marketing, Cryptic keeps pointing the boat into the rocks...it isn't going to end well.
Hopefully the specs are high... I think hard core pc gamers generally have higher standards than most. If the game can run on a dinosaur machine from 7 or 8 years that won't be good. My machine being 3 years old I'm looking to put something new together as well.
One of the first reasons NWN2 was a failure was the rediculously high end specs, that at the time only the newest and most expensive machines could run on minimum specs. At the time Pixel shader 3.0 was nearly brand new and was only seen on the $300+ vid cards, so most players had to wait a year or more to even afford to get a card that would run the minimum vid card specs not to mention the processor specs too, which were really high end as well.
Interesting considering my wife was the one who sent me the image, it was more about intelligence (or lack thereof) how the industry works and situations I found myself in at both QOL and Turbine than gender. However I do see how someone could take it the wrong way.
The thing is Truth; no matter how much we complain about this incredibly inept marketing, Cryptic keeps pointing the boat into the rocks...it isn't going to end well.
Truly the course boggles me too. I'll let marketing explain it directly or through one of their media groups.
So you have to ask the devs AND their superiors, "What's most important that this game succeeds?" I've said on multiple occasions, the most important aspect in the MMO industry is about making money, whether it's Cryptic's ideals or PWE's. And what gets them more money is more players. More players means they need to find a common ground that's popular with as many people as possible. And what's popular with as many people as possible MAY NOT be what's standard in D&D.
Then an easy way to lift many of the complaints and angst about the game is to remove the D&D name. The Devs are free to make whatever game they wish to make money but a game that has Neverwinter and D&D attached to it already comes with certain expectations. They use the name for selling the game and not that I have heard any Devs say this but have seen many besides above quote try to say it in their defense, that maybe D&D won't sell or won't translate. The aswer is easy then don't make a game with those names if you don't want the expectations that come with it. Personally, I think they did want those expectations.
Comments
These are mostly my concerns: while it's good that we have tiered sets for all classes, i hope that i will able to wear something else on my cleric, except the usual boring 1h mace.
Itemization, on the other hand, seems pretty well done: they didn't fall into the "healer" trap (aka assigning a stats ONLY for +healz, so healers are kinda gimped outside instances) and clerics will be able to deal at least some damage with +power.
ArP, Power, Critical% and damage are the usual stats covered by every mmo, and i'm happy about them.
I wonder what will be the main stats for Wizards, though...
St. Augustinus
This is what worries me I would rather avoid what every other mmo has for some thing better suited to DnD. I would dislike if they simply ported the same kind of armor say Forsaken World has, it would kind of limit your options.
For example if I was trying to make a crit build on a paladin I would hate to then see all the best crit enhancing gear to be rogue or archer class only.
Example rogues get a "bracer of uber crit" that increases crit by 1000% but alas it's rogue only and then the pally only has access to a bracer of uber crit but that only increases by 500%
It's one thing I like about ddo even though some raid gear is made with one class in mind other classes can use it too like the tharnes goggles or the torq.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Well, this may happen also in NO. Maybe the only class-reserved parts of equipment will be the main ones, and you can switch the others. I don't know, time will tell.
St. Augustinus
Could be but I would awfully enjoy to be able to get in alpha early enough so I could add my input but seems at this rate it's a wash, input is pretty much not listened to IMO if you only are able to get into Beta.
I really despise class based equipment.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Even then, unless it's a major bug or something Like Ilum in SWTOR that was just horribly broken devs don't listen. I have heard this many times from producers and devlopers:
This isn't their vision it's mine, if they are ever allowed to make a MMO then they can make their vision.
And yes it is always said with a arrogant contemptuous tone; Personally I never understood class based gear as it pigeon holes a lot of possibilities...but you're not going to get them to change it, as the devs are making the game to their likes and desires not ours, all you can do in any game is hope those wants and desires match up with at least some of yours.
Personally, I think this is exactly how devs should be. Stick to their vision of the game, rather than trying to please a horde of people who can never be pleased. It's listening to the playerbase that causes games to be watered down until they are indistinguishable from one another.
You like one thing, I like another, Joe over there likes something else, it just goes on and on. Trying to please all of us means it most likely pleases none of us, and it ends up looking like every other game out there as they chase the majority opinion just like everyone else. So yes, please, I hope the devs continue to think 'this is our game, we'll make it how we want it to be.'
I think this would be true if it weren't for the D&D name being slapped on it. The franchise has set standards, like being able to equip stuff cross-class (at a penalty, of course, but nevertheless). To me, it's not so much trying to please everyone as it is being faithful to the system, and if you truly respect the D&D mechanics and stay true to those, then you won't have a lot of complaints. Most of the ranting might come from people who don't know the rules, are new to D&D, or those who DO just want another MMORPG clone-of-something-that's-already-out.
Whether the dev's "vision" of the game is the same as the D&D fanbase's, or even WotC's for that matter, I can't really say.
Yes and no, I think. Sure it is D&D, but there is a conversion that is happening, from pen and paper to MMO. As with any conversion, which rules get kept, thrown out or modified is a choice the devs will make based on their vision of the game and what they want it to be.
There are many things that happen in an MMO that don't happen in a pnp game, and vice versa. In an MMO, you have to account for massive amounts of players, respawning mobs (I've never been in a pnp game where the goblins assaulting the town stay at the gates forever, even after you've completed the questline to go and raid the goblin village), the inability to limit item acquisition, etc etc etc all the way up to the way death is handled. Not to mention all the player who will cheat and exploit the system in any way they can find.
These things have to be accounted for. So the devs vision is just as vital in a D&D (or any other familiar setting) MMO as it is in a new franchise.
I hate class based gear as well. This is the first real downer of the game so far. Hoefully they change this up and I wouldn't mid seeing a delay release to fix it.
Character is what a man is in the dark
You're right about the conversion thing. In a perfect conversion, there would still be a turn-based battle system, so at the game's very core, it is changing. But it's unique things about D&D that really matter to the fans. Respawning and dying are basic to video games in general, no matter the genre, but D&D has specific agendas about gear equipment that, in my opinion, are easily converted to MMO gameplay (even an action MMORPG). Same with using magic or placing stats. If you can really step back and look at the basics, much of it can be with surprising accuracy to the franchise's expectations. And if you've been staring at the my-game-my-view screen for too long, you might lose sight of your objective (to please the target audience) and succumb to a superiority complex. Everyone just wants to have fun and enjoy the game, and I think most people are afraid of them taking too much control over things with their own "vision" during the testing phases and not listen to the public they're requesting help from.
Should helping make the game better be a privilege or a right?
I would say it depends on how you are defining 'making the game better.'
But first, let me take a moment to define my point of view. I have been playing D&D for 30 years now, give or take a few. I have played every edition, from 1st all the way up - until 4th. I know almost nothing about 4th edition. I glanced at the books, did not like what I saw, and walked away. So my perspective is very much an old school view of D&D.
Perhaps that's why I am having less of a problem with class based gear; in the D&D I am familiar with, while it wasn't called class locked gear or anything of the sort, the classes did not mix their gear. Warriors wore the heaviest armor they could find, thieves for leather because it was the heaviest they could wear without taking penalties to their abilities, and casters wear cloth because they have problems casting in actual armor. It wasn't that warriors or thieves were physically unable to wear robes, there was just no percentage in doing so. So I have no dissonance to class based gear in a D&D game, that is simply going back to the game's roots.
As to privilege or right - I am pretty sure that my making the game better would not be your making the game better. So I don't see how it even gets to privilege or right, because first we need to agree on what better is. And I believe that the whole 'designers listening to players' thing is a very bad idea, and shouldn't happen. Too many cooks spoil the broth, and there is no way to listen to players and not have too many cooks.
I am an author, that's how I pay my bills. When I am writing my books and articles, I do not listen to what people have to say about what I should do, I write what I think is the best story. I have the editors that I have chosen because their vision is the closest to mine, and I do not worry about what anyone else has to say. I have fans who enjoy my work, and I have critics who do not. Just as any game will have fans who enjoy it and critics who do not. I don't try and change my style hoping to gain more readers, because I think releasing what I think is the best product that displays my vision is more important.
And that is what I wish game designers would do as well.
I won't deny that there are some very good and dedicated niche authors and indie devs out there, but you're generalizing about the industry as a whole. If you look through some of the past threads, you'll see more concern about this game going down the wrong path (PWE standard microtransactions or other financial plans, poor marketing, outcries for fixing animations or other later-unchangable things, PvP debates, etc.) rather than going down the right path.
And there are some pretty damn brilliant (even common sense) ideas from fans. But they don't want to see the game fail due to years and years of development (which could all be in vain) that could change in the blink of an eye, just like what's popular in fashion or even fictional writing.
So you have to ask the devs AND their superiors, "What's most important that this game succeeds?" I've said on multiple occasions, the most important aspect in the MMO industry is about making money, whether it's Cryptic's ideals or PWE's. And what gets them more money is more players. More players means they need to find a common ground that's popular with as many people as possible. And what's popular with as many people as possible MAY NOT be what's standard in D&D.
The question boils down to, which will the devs/pubs pursue: Money or D&D? In-game items/gear is only part of that equation. I'm not saying that their decision have been bad so far; I haven't even played any of the game or seen anything outside the videos. But remember we're talking about PWE and Cryptic's intentions toward the D&D and Forgotten Realms franchise, which many, many, many players don't want to see spoiled. Too many times have there been companies so blinded that even free fan advice could've saved them from the toilet (THQ, Square-Enix, 38 Studios, Sony in general, to name just a few....)
Quoted for great truth and justice!
Bravo
And anyone who says they shouldn't listen to the fans really needs to talk to Mr. Smedley or Daniel Erickson for a few hours, while there may be many opinions you usually can see a clear consensus on what most people think is the best thing to do in a given situation...classed based gear being one.
Heh they have been shooting themselves in the same foot for a couple years now... most of us just chalk up the Alpha give away to yet another false start, as was said on another forum, we figure the marketing person was hired for "other reasons" than experience. :rolleyes:
LOL this is very true. Nicely said.
[/SIGPIC]
The Older Gamers (25+) - Never too old to play games
Hopefully the specs are high... I think hard core pc gamers generally have higher standards than most. If the game can run on a dinosaur machine from 7 or 8 years that won't be good. My machine being 3 years old I'm looking to put something new together as well.
All people need to be looked at, but everybody can't be pleased.
If they went with a non MMO gamer's definition for the article for example, then they neglected both the hardcore MMO gamer and savvy D&D gamer in tabletop and video games like...well, like me.
But I don't know if this was their intention, just a possible thought. Bluntly, marketing may need to explain the theme of the article's "voice" because it backfired no matter what its intention.
But dumb female references on the outside sites, that's borderline insensitive to women. Heck, I rolelplay a big dumb male fighter, and yet we always seem to have the "bimbo" references. Never a himbo.
No warnings or anything since everything here is fine, just asking to reflect when saying things like this ironically saying the article's talking down yet when they are criticizing this way.
'Nuff said.
Sometime it's not simply profit or purity. Most of the time it's an agonizing compromise between the two when you have people passionate with the theme yet realistic on what will work without throwing bricks of cash and years of more time.
Not quite. D&D tabletop 4th ed has classes assigned certain weapon and armor groups (or in wizard a very limited weapon selection and cloth armor only.) While one could make open or universal sets and assign them to "classes" it's a heck of a lot easier to assign a group of options for class restricted system speaking from a MMO development system.
Honestly, it's likely this system was already implemented in the co-op and was too set to completely redo as an open system even with a year's MMO conversion time, but this is pure speculation and has no basis in any shown history.
(See, I make it clear on my replies too if it's my opinion or speculation.)
From what I have seen on the Cryptic games, expect your dual core to be your middle of the line with better specs (especially video card and RAM) offering more beautiful graphics and more processor to be able to handle it more smoothly. Yes, technically, if somebody's able to get the STO or CO to run on their system, it's likely NWO will work also, but how WELL it will look and run is a whole other discussion.
However, the company still hasn't released an official minimum/current specs, just based on prior experience with their game clients.
Thank you and carry on.
And now whenever I see truth post the first thing that is going to come to mind is 'Heh. Himbo.'
Go on addressing the points, but not sure I completely agree with the 'Classes are boxed into their equipment'. They start out that way, sure, but then you have things like racial proficiencies and feats that let you deviate quickly. That is part of the fun.
Example? Swordmage with a polearm, whaaa? Oh, because a Glaive is a H.Blade/Polearm. Problem solved. Now go pick up some polearm feats. Or (to be more vanilla 4e) a dwarf rogue with a warhammer.
If it wasn't for all the spreadsheet gaming from D&D twinks and munchkins we wouldnt have the card game Munchkin.
Actually most of the negative comments are more towards the pointless blog and the horrible PR work which it is. When you don't provide any sort of details to promote the game and everyone has to base past title performances then yeah... there are gonna be a bunch of naysayers. If Cryptic seriously wants to promote the game then they need to produce some quality PR work.
That would be <ridiculous>. You'll be singling out the majority of you customers, hard-core gamers are the very minority. Specs should be moderate like GW2 specs but certainly not high specs.
I agree, MMORPG shouldn't have high end hardware requirements.
St. Augustinus
Interesting considering my wife was the one who sent me the image, it was more about intelligence (or lack thereof) how the industry works and situations I found myself in at both QOL and Turbine than gender. However I do see how someone could take it the wrong way.
The thing is Truth; no matter how much we complain about this incredibly inept marketing, Cryptic keeps pointing the boat into the rocks...it isn't going to end well.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
One of the first reasons NWN2 was a failure was the rediculously high end specs, that at the time only the newest and most expensive machines could run on minimum specs. At the time Pixel shader 3.0 was nearly brand new and was only seen on the $300+ vid cards, so most players had to wait a year or more to even afford to get a card that would run the minimum vid card specs not to mention the processor specs too, which were really high end as well.
Truly the course boggles me too. I'll let marketing explain it directly or through one of their media groups.
Yeah I think we both know that isn't going to happen.
Then an easy way to lift many of the complaints and angst about the game is to remove the D&D name. The Devs are free to make whatever game they wish to make money but a game that has Neverwinter and D&D attached to it already comes with certain expectations. They use the name for selling the game and not that I have heard any Devs say this but have seen many besides above quote try to say it in their defense, that maybe D&D won't sell or won't translate. The aswer is easy then don't make a game with those names if you don't want the expectations that come with it. Personally, I think they did want those expectations.