Haha, if you wanted to stay true to D&D rules, shouldn't you LOSE a level whenever you die?
Only in ad&d. In 3.5 you gained negative levels and in 4e you gain a bad penalty that goes away after a long time.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2012
In the various MMO's I have played on over the years I only wished item degradation on one of them because they had limited items to choose from which caused endless price drops. In those that did include them I really didn't care for the set-ups.
Simply put, if item degradation is included it has to exist for a purpose. And the one thing I hate above everything else: Having to pay real money to prevent items from losing durability when repairing.
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Yeah no matter what NO item degradation simply because you die. It's a stupid mechanic which makes no gaming sense both as a game system and an MMO mechanic.
Yeah no matter what NO item degradation simply because you die. It's a stupid mechanic which makes no gaming sense both as a game system and an MMO mechanic.
As long as you can repair the equipment it actually does make some sense. If you are beat to death by some mob, your equipment must have had some damage. It is not much different then just paying a fee for dieing, just presented differently. The fact that your equipment stays damaged until you can repair it provides a longer penalty then just paying gold the moment you are rezzed.
Using GW2 as an example. If I die, I pay two penalty's. First is to transport to a portal, the other is to repair equipment. If I manage to rally after being beat down and do not die, I still have to pay to have my equipment repaired. This seems logical since I was beaten to a pulp but managed to come out alive. Also, the damage builds. If I get beaten down again before repairing, my equipment is damaged even more.
Einstein - "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
As long as you can repair the equipment it actually does make some sense. If you are beat to death by some mob, your equipment must have had some damage. It is not much different then just paying a fee for dieing, just presented differently. The fact that your equipment stays damaged until you can repair it provides a longer penalty then just paying gold the moment you are rezzed.
Using GW2 as an example. If I die, I pay two penalty's. First is to transport to a portal, the other is to repair equipment. If I manage to rally after being beat down and do not die, I still have to pay to have my equipment repaired. This seems logical since I was beaten to a pulp but managed to come out alive. Also, the damage builds. If I get beaten down again before repairing, my equipment is damaged even more.
I have no problem with item damage...just not the ONLY time is when you die.
What's the so-called "reason" for that? If I barely avoid not getting beaten to death, then by that logic, I should have some equipment damage still. Is there a reason if I survive, I am miraculously able to instantly repair all my stuff somehow able to be damaged this way after a combat with absolutely no listed prior damage? But let's say somehow, it only adds up if somebody dies. Fine. Let's look at "death causes item damage." Honestly.
The same mobs-who horde items like this we must kill to get and their items always miraculously take no damage when we take their stuff then they die-don't take mine if I die (leaving my stuff alone illogically,) then only damage it (and never tried to take it) if I revive? If we're going with a "pretend narrative you can imagine" in a role-playing vein or fantasy vein that is why so, all these sides need to be believed in, not just the "narrative" when you die.
No. We're asked to suspend our disbelief because if we got "damaged" items as rewards, the players would cry "unfair" over realism, and the makers know it's just going to be a mechanical agreement that we're just not showing damage for this.
Just like it's an agreement suggesting a mechanic to show a "damage penalty" only when you died.
It has nothing to do with coming back from death, and I just demonstrated it's not the "wear and tear" of combat. Whether that's right for this game or not I'll leave for another discussion.
Just that item damage for death (only) is outdated and unimaginative as much as MMO companies trying to make new games with only a subscription model: It just isn't believed anymore.
You make a valid point. Of course the players would disappear if they had to pay for all damage. I do like the fact that you are damaged and have to pay when you are down but kill the mob and can rally in GW2. Adds a bit of realism.
Einstein - "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
I have no problem with item damage...just not the ONLY time is when you die.
What's the so-called "reason" for that? If I barely avoid not getting beaten to death, then by that logic, I should have some equipment damage still. Is there a reason if I survive, I am miraculously able to instantly repair all my stuff somehow able to be damaged this way after a combat with absolutely no listed prior damage? But let's say somehow, it only adds up if somebody dies. Fine. Let's look at "death causes item damage." Honestly.
The same mobs-who horde items like this we must kill to get and their items always miraculously take no damage when we take their stuff then they die-don't take mine if I die (leaving my stuff alone illogically,) then only damage it (and never tried to take it) if I revive? If we're going with a "pretend narrative you can imagine" in a role-playing vein or fantasy vein that is why so, all these sides need to be believed in, not just the "narrative" when you die.
No. We're asked to suspend our disbelief because if we got "damaged" items as rewards, the players would cry "unfair" over realism, and the makers know it's just going to be a mechanical agreement that we're just not showing damage for this.
Just like it's an agreement suggesting a mechanic to show a "damage penalty" only when you died.
It has nothing to do with coming back from death, and I just demonstrated it's not the "wear and tear" of combat. Whether that's right for this game or not I'll leave for another discussion.
Just that item damage for death (only) is outdated and unimaginative as much as MMO companies trying to make new games with only a subscription model: It just isn't believed anymore.
When you say damage what klind of damage do you mean?
In DDO for example there are 2 kinds, regular damage from wear n tear as you "use" the item and then there's permanent damage that can occur when you "repair" it at a vendor. I like the system in DDO, it's something you need to keep an eye on but it's not overly onerous either.
You can even do some alchemical rituals to items that makes these items bound to you and thus non tradable but immune to permanent damage amongst other things. As for death damage I like it, it shows if you die your gears most likely took a beating so it's normal most of it has suffered damage.
I don't see a big deal to this issue if you don't die it's normal wear and tear that your gear"suffers" if you do die then presumable you fought hard and all your gear took more damage before you faceplanted.
Is there actually a specific reason that we need to be immortal ? Just paying a small fee for the resurrection and a teleport seems awful nice for a life and a prospect of reward at the end of a run. Would it not add infinetly to the suspense and coop-factor of a run if people would have to lose if not resurrected in time ? Nowadays a party can wipe and retry bosses almost indefinetly ? I mean i don't want to lose my character but i like it a bit more challenging .. A char's death might end the instance and port him out.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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aesclealMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Or maybe character death is on a timer, your character dies and maybe you can't be resurrected for, say, 15 minutes? Maybe longer? 20? 30? Now that would surely be a penalty. Even 10 minutes would feel like forever, if like DDO there were rez shrines littered all over the place but you still have to wait. You can still play your character, but you significantly slow the progress of your party unless they are capable of moving on without you. Or maybe along with that death timer, you are also removed from the instance. Or if there are shrine everywhere maybe you are teleported back to the last shrine passed (or the entrance to the dungeon).
It may encourage players to log in with a different character to play. If I was solo'ing, I sure would play a different toon rather than wait it out. Or would it just frustrate the average player too much?
Me personally, I'd welcome this. It's be frustrated sure, because I often over extend myself in MMO's and end up as digital roadkill. But I'm also a lover of Pen and Paper D&D from way back (haven't played in a decade or more) and I recall having to think clearly about my next move, and should I die in the course of an adventure, I sat around eating chips and drinking pop until my party could throw my sorry HAMSTER over my pony and lead me back to town, and a temple to be resurrected. Aah, good time! But ya, with voice chat, you still have that... the jokes and smart remarks, the boo's and the complaints about what a dumb@ss move that was. You learn fast and don't repeat!
Just a thought.
Aes
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited November 2012
I actually don't mind the idea of a rez timer. Anything to make the game a little more challenging. I'm not quite hardcore enough for a permadeath for everyone system (like Wizardry Online).
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2012
In my experience longer res timers are much more demotivating than anything else.
The act of dieing alone angers people and I have seen many people simply insta-log because of their death, especially if there's no incentive to stay online.
When this feeling is coupled with a resurection timer then all hell can break lose.
Simply put this is the worst time you could further frustrate the player. I found it's better to let the player do anything other than watch a countdown timer after they die.
Of course this depends on how they implement it and for what purpose. League of Legends breaks this rule but have serious rules in place to keep players from 'rage quitting' and the timers themselves are the virtual key to the game balance. But overall this death punishment has to be carefully implemented into the core of the game and is a horrible choice for the standard MMO.
When you say damage what klind of damage do you mean?
In DDO for example there are 2 kinds, regular damage from wear n tear as you "use" the item and then there's permanent damage that can occur when you "repair" it at a vendor. I like the system in DDO, it's something you need to keep an eye on but it's not overly onerous either.
You can even do some alchemical rituals to items that makes these items bound to you and thus non tradable but immune to permanent damage amongst other things. As for death damage I like it, it shows if you die your gears most likely took a beating so it's normal most of it has suffered damage.
I don't see a big deal to this issue if you don't die it's normal wear and tear that your gear"suffers" if you do die then presumable you fought hard and all your gear took more damage before you faceplanted.
And your example shows a wear and tear option not just a death damages items option. This I can accept as your items damage from actual use. Whether permanent or not, that's another tier in that option.
Is there actually a specific reason that we need to be immortal ? Just paying a small fee for the resurrection and a teleport seems awful nice for a life and a prospect of reward at the end of a run. Would it not add infinetly to the suspense and coop-factor of a run if people would have to lose if not resurrected in time ? Nowadays a party can wipe and retry bosses almost indefinetly ? I mean i don't want to lose my character but i like it a bit more challenging .. A char's death might end the instance and port him out.
From what little we've seen, you use some sort of a raise dead scroll which you (most likely) pay for and it teleports you back to a campfire. (I didn't save the video link as it was part in an entire segment, so if anybody remembers which video showed it and can repost it that would be great.) That's just what you described. If you meant teleport back to the fight, we haven't seen if they have that option or not yet. Based on Cryptic games, we either simply can respawn in a game (like STO) or we lose our progress if we leave and come back, which I hear they are having spawn points in this game. I'm curious if we have a spawn outside the game yet keep your place for 5 minutes like the DDO option instances?
In my experience longer res timers are much more demotivating than anything else.
The act of dieing alone angers people and I have seen many people simply insta-log because of their death, especially if there's no incentive to stay online.
When this feeling is coupled with a resurection timer then all hell can break lose.
Simply put this is the worst time you could further frustrate the player. I found it's better to let the player do anything other than watch a countdown timer after they die.
Of course this depends on how they implement it and for what purpose. League of Legends breaks this rule but have serious rules in place to keep players from 'rage quitting' and the timers themselves are the virtual key to the game balance. But overall this death punishment has to be carefully implemented into the core of the game and is a horrible choice for the standard MMO.
I have to agree with this, even in DDO where death is not such a big deal we have rage quits because of dying and sometimes not even because they died but someone else in the party did lol
Has to be done carefully, it's been seen again and again in MMO's if the death penalty is to onerous peeps will walk away, if the game was to feature perma-death and full loot pvp then that would be a different story as the target audience would be very different.
GW2 really was brilliant in that it gives you XP for rezzing another player.
Oh I so hate that game for many reasons. Main reason max your character in less then 2 weeks.
Anyway on to topic:
Since this game is not going to be respawn festival we can also have slighly harder death penalties. Maybe Ghost Running like in WOW or something else. We do have trinity more or less in this game like TANKS(Guardian Fighter) and Healers(Cleric) and DPS(Control Wizard and Trickster Rogue... maybe also Ranger at release) and maybe more classes in the future.
I suspect it will not be respawn festival as Guild Wars 2(no thanks!) then we also could have death penalty that feels. Please no ridiculous system where everybody can resurect each other. However Clerics and maybe some other Healer class could resurect slightly so that players could be saved from Death Penalty.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I have to agree with this, even in DDO where death is not such a big deal we have rage quits because of dying and sometimes not even because they died but someone else in the party did lol.
That was a case in which the company chose a poor death mechanic for the gameplay they tried to promote.
Playing that game I literally felt like I wasted time if I or somebody else died on a quest. 10% is a hefty chunk of XP especially if it was your first run-through on the quest but it'sd not something I'd rage quit over.
Again I don't care if it's called bonus XP or not. Dieing was a -10% XP Loss, living was Standard XP.
But that wouldn't be all too bad if any one player's death didn't cause the same amount of loss for everybody in the party. It was like a punch in the gut to every person in the party when any person died...and it just didn't make sense to make a group oriented game cause such division between party members if somebody died.
If a game want's to promote group play they can't punish the entire group for one person's failure; at least not equally.
Each game has to consider what they're aiming to achieve and how best to promote it with their penalties. There's no one size fits all solution to death penalties and it really has to be carefully considered to fit the goals of each and every game and game's gameplay. DDO is a great example of how not to design a death penalty.
That was a case in which the company chose a poor death mechanic for the gameplay they tried to promote.
Playing that game I literally felt like I wasted time if I or somebody else died on a quest. 10% is a hefty chunk of XP especially if it was your first run-through on the quest but it'sd not something I'd rage quit over.
Again I don't care if it's called bonus XP or not. Dieing was a -10% XP Loss, living was Standard XP.
But that wouldn't be all too bad if any one player's death didn't cause the same amount of loss for everybody in the party. It was like a punch in the gut to every person in the party when any person died...and it just didn't make sense to make a group oriented game cause such division between party members if somebody died.
If a game want's to promote group play they can't punish the entire group for one person's failure; at least not equally.
Each game has to consider what they're aiming to achieve and how best to promote it with their penalties. There's no one size fits all solution to death penalties and it really has to be carefully considered to fit the goals of each and every game and game's gameplay. DDO is a great example of how not to design a death penalty.
DDO had a harsher death penalty where dying actually cost you xp but it was removed because of all the moaning about it, as for the 10% loss , it's nothing even on a 3rd lifer it's not a big deal there so much xp in the game.
Btw the 10% loss was not of the standard xp for the quest. The 10% is just a bonus you got for no one dying in the quest same as you can get a bonus to xp for ransacking etc. The 10% bonus was designed to get peeps to slow down and not zerg everything.
I am sorry but anyone that moans about this is just taking the game way to seriously and has forgotten what DnD is all about. DDO's death penalty was fine before they changed it and it's fine like it is now, the reality is that what a good death penalty is is very subjective the same way what is "fun" is subjective.
DDO had a harsher death penalty where dying actually cost you xp but it was removed because of all the moaning about it, as for the 10% loss , it's nothing even on a 3rd lifer it's not a big deal there so much xp in the game.
Btw the 10% loss was not of the standard xp for the quest. The 10% is just a bonus you got for no one dying in the quest same as you can get a bonus to xp for ransacking etc. The 10% bonus was designed to get peeps to slow down and not zerg everything.
I am sorry but anyone that moans about this is just taking the game way to seriously and has forgotten what DnD is all about. DDO's death penalty was fine before they changed it and it's fine like it is now, the reality is that what a good death penalty is is very subjective the same way what is "fun" is subjective.
I absolutely disagree. DDO has SO LITTLE xp, you need to run every quest over and over, especially on a third lifer. The only reason the TR system was implemented was to promote replayability of of older content so that the release of new content could continue at its glacial pace. That game is as grindy as it can get, and the epic XP system only made it worse. Free to play players can't even run the quest on the highest difficulty without running it on the 2 lower settings... grinding the same quest over and over is an inherent part of the game. Rightly so, because the developers can't afford to make enough content that you could level up characters in alternate zones without grinding. Compare this to a game like WoW or GW2, where you can level up characters in totally different parts of the world never seeing the same scenery twice. Even today, after their first ever expansion this year (first ever should be a hint as to how tiny the game is) the size of the DDO world, and therefore variety and availability in XP, just pales in comparison to most modern MMOs. Not getting XP because someone died is a penalty, even if they call it a bonus for surviving. That's just semantics. If DDO wasn't SO grindy, people wouldn't complain about XP penalties and XP/min. The obsession over XP/min is a testament to the lack of content/insanely high XP requirements in the game.
People are going to die. The DDO system of penalizing everyone in the group for the inevitable was stupid. The GW2 system of granting XP for rezzing was brilliant.
I absolutely disagree. DDO has SO LITTLE xp, you need to run every quest over and over, especially on a third lifer. That game is as grindy as it can get, and the epic XP system only made it worse. Free to play players can't even run the quest on the highest difficulty without running it on the 2 lower settings... grinding the same quest over and over is an inherent part of the game. Rightly so, because the developers can't afford to make enough content that you could level up characters in alternate zones without grinding. Compare this to a game like WoW or GW2, where you can level up characters in totally different parts of the world never seeing the same scenery twice. Not getting XP because someone died is a penalty, even if they call it a bonus for surviving. That's just semantics.
Heh I dunno what your talking about maybe you haven't played lately but its not that hard to level even on a third lifer, it's not even necessary to run the same quest more than once if you do elite and keep your bravery bonus going. DDO has a huge amount of XP to work with now. Hell I don't even bother with keeping MY BB bonus going on my second lives as BB is not even needed to hit 20.
Of course there some key quest you do want to repeat as they give huge amounts of xp, like von3 just to name one. For destiny Xp it can be boring but if you want a few level real fast in a destiny you run house of rusted blades, 15k xp or so under 1 min if you have a DD available.
It's not semantics the quest gives so much xp for completion and gives bonuses IF you choose to do them that gives you more xp but everyone wants it all but not to have to do the work. As for wow or gw2 I surely hope this game doesn't end up like those ones.
Oh one last thing as a f2p ( or premium since I have all the packs cept the last 2 that came out) I can assure you you don't need to run a quest higher than norm one the first life, or higher than hard on the 2nd or elite for the 3rd life. This also isn't an issue as on your second life you CAN OPEN on hard and on your 3rd life you CAN open on ELITE.
The open on elite on your first life a little vip advantage.
I will end saying if you consider it a grind running a quest 3 times well lol .....you want to know what real grinding is go play some nice little korean games then 1 year later when your only at like 3/4 the way to max level come and tell me DDO is grindy.
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited November 2012
I quit playing DDO shortly after MOTU came out. Was playing on one of my fourth lifers, and decided I didn't want to do the same missions again... over and over... again. Even with the XP tomes (their existence, again, testifies how little XP is available in the game), I was running every quest E/H and grinding the high XP ones.
And as far as amount of content goes I sure hope this ends up like WoW. That game is HUGE (I've never subbed, by the way, but I did play the beta. Even vanilla had a MUCH larger world than DDO has now).
Comparing DDO to grindy korean games isn't saying much... you're comparing the moss growing atop the stagnant water at the bottom of the barrel to each other.
You seem to have gotten used to the grind of the game in DDO, which is kind of sad. There's a lot of games where grinding simply isn't an issue.
But this is getting off topic. The topic is death penalties - DDO's is a 10% penalty to everyone in the group (even if it's worded as a 10% survival bonus). Bad design.
I quit playing DDO shortly after MOTU came out. Was playing on one of my fourth lifers, and decided I didn't want to do the same missions again... over and over... again. Even with the XP tomes (their existence, again, testifies how little XP is available in the game), I was running every quest E/H and grinding the high XP ones.
And as far as amount of content goes I sure hope this ends up like WoW. That game is HUGE (I've never subbed, by the way, but I did play the beta. Even vanilla had a MUCH larger world than DDO has now).
Comparing DDO to grindy korean games isn't saying much... you're comparing the moss growing atop the stagnant water at the bottom of the barrel to each other.
You seem to have gotten used to the grind of the game in DDO, which is kind of sad. There's a lot of games where grinding simply isn't an issue.
But this is getting off topic. The topic is death penalties - DDO's is a 10% penalty to everyone in the group (even if it's worded as a 10% survival bonus). Bad design.
That's what I'm telling you though I have more than one third lifer and the game isn't like 2 years ago there's no need to repeat the same quest over n over n over, if with a tome of learning you are grinding the the same quests over n over n over you are doing something very very wrong lol.
Point is your saying DDO is lacking Xp and I'm telling you you are flat out wrong, here's a nice tidbit for ya you can max a first life toon just doing the explorers thought that WOULD be grindy and boring.
Would it be nice if ddo had more quest sure it would be but that's another thing and there's no need to exaggerate things. DDO is one of the easiest game to cap that I have played barring gw2 but then that was built for people that suffer from ADD.
Also if I can't compare DDO to a korean game then you can't compare DDO to wow seeing as one is an instanced lobby type game and the other is more of a seamless open world etc etc.
So my point is the death penalty is just fine in DDO because XP is a non issue no matter what life you are on and I'll just add in NWO it should be even bigger non issue seeing as the foundry will grant xp and so we should have plenty of content to run.
I will add I would like to see a similar BONUS to xp for non deaths during a delve. It's something that will require people to work together and keep an eye out for each others back and if they can't do that then they don't deserve the extra XP.
1. exp loss
2. gold loss
3. leave your inventory and armor weapons and gold in the dungeon and find your way back to them.
I like choices
and adding the choice of durability loss and at least temporary stat lowering as 4 and 5.
Like I've said I like choices.
and I think 5 choices of penalties really makes it easier not to just want to quit on death.
freekimdotcom seems to agree with me.
Also if armor damage is added I want to address 3 things.
1. I think repair should be kind of like Diablo1 where when vendors repair it it takes no permanent damage but if you repair it, unless you are a master blacksmith, it will be repaired but take permanent lowering of max durability after repairing 2-3 times or making it where blacksmithing levels needed to create it vs. lvl of blacksmithing skill when fixing it(this creates a percentage which is told to the player on how likely you are to not permanently damage it while repairing, the game then allows a random percentile roll which decides whether or not it receives permanent damage.)[for example if a smith of lvl1 smithing tries to fix an item that takes lvl50 smithing to create they have only a 5% chance to not cause permanent damage.]
2.The vendor cost of repair will not exceed 10%-25% of the sell price of the hauls you bring in.
Diablo 3 did a horrible job of this at one point as I was just paying repair bills with all my rares and uniques.
3. NO "ethereal" items
ethereal item - slightly to moderately more "powered up" or magical items which can not be repaired.
I absolutely disagree. DDO has SO LITTLE xp, you need to run every quest over and over, especially on a third lifer. The only reason the TR system was implemented was to promote replayability of of older content so that the release of new content could continue at its glacial pace. That game is as grindy as it can get, and the epic XP system only made it worse. Free to play players can't even run the quest on the highest difficulty without running it on the 2 lower settings... grinding the same quest over and over is an inherent part of the game. Rightly so, because the developers can't afford to make enough content that you could level up characters in alternate zones without grinding. Compare this to a game like WoW or GW2, where you can level up characters in totally different parts of the world never seeing the same scenery twice. Even today, after their first ever expansion this year (first ever should be a hint as to how tiny the game is) the size of the DDO world, and therefore variety and availability in XP, just pales in comparison to most modern MMOs. Not getting XP because someone died is a penalty, even if they call it a bonus for surviving. That's just semantics. If DDO wasn't SO grindy, people wouldn't complain about XP penalties and XP/min. The obsession over XP/min is a testament to the lack of content/insanely high XP requirements in the game.
People are going to die. The DDO system of penalizing everyone in the group for the inevitable was stupid. The GW2 system of granting XP for rezzing was brilliant.
Heh I dunno what your talking about maybe you haven't played lately but its not that hard to level even on a third lifer, it's not even necessary to run the same quest more than once if you do elite and keep your bravery bonus going. DDO has a huge amount of XP to work with now. Hell I don't even bother with keeping MY BB bonus going on my second lives as BB is not even needed to hit 20.
Of course there some key quest you do want to repeat as they give huge amounts of xp, like von3 just to name one. For destiny Xp it can be boring but if you want a few level real fast in a destiny you run house of rusted blades, 15k xp or so under 1 min if you have a DD available.
It's not semantics the quest gives so much xp for completion and gives bonuses IF you choose to do them that gives you more xp but everyone wants it all but not to have to do the work. As for wow or gw2 I surely hope this game doesn't end up like those ones.
Oh one last thing as a f2p ( or premium since I have all the packs cept the last 2 that came out) I can assure you you don't need to run a quest higher than norm one the first life, or higher than hard on the 2nd or elite for the 3rd life. This also isn't an issue as on your second life you CAN OPEN on hard and on your 3rd life you CAN open on ELITE.
The open on elite on your first life a little vip advantage.
I will end saying if you consider it a grind running a quest 3 times well lol .....you want to know what real grinding is go play some nice little korean games then 1 year later when your only at like 3/4 the way to max level come and tell me DDO is grindy.
Well, when the TR system came out, no question it was to extend the limited content availability. Now one can argue both sides.
As for content availability per se, I also think it matters if we're talking VIP or free player on their freemium (or the user has paid only for certain areas.) I'd bet the user would claim a lot more grind if they were stuff with the free tier adventurers only.
Finally, in regards to xp bonus or penalty if dying, the group should NEVER be punished for an individual's death. If that means they lose the XP bonus, then fine. But that bonus/penalty should be ported to the individual reward xp multiplier. But that's technically gone.
Bluntly, the original setups for the system releases by Turbine are often...badly done. I can't sugar coat it. Look at the Enhancements for the characters, the Excuse why TR was made (no new or little new content then for many a capped PC,) the Epic XP, etc. If a game is done well, it makes you want to not only play the game, but try different things on it and go to different areas. DDO give the impression of lather, rinse, repeat to any person coming from the popular MMO games sive of content a factor as well (except maybe GW2 which goes too fast to cap which means you finished before rinsing sometimes it seems.) But yes, comparing it to certain Asian-market games is comparing Apples to Kimchee. And be thankful the micro transaction minutiae mandatory buys isn't in the Western world as default so much.
I saw a post on this from last year and saw no answer. Will there be a death penalty of any type? I liked the one in DDO for example where if you were in a dungeon and died your "crystal" would have to be carried to a rest shrine...I thought it was a pretty good system actually. Limited shrines made people be a bit more cautious.
Currently we use Raise Dead scrolls and resurrection scrolls that are spent to revive yourself either where you have fallen or at the last respawn point you visited (depending on which scrolls you have handy). If you expend absolutely all your scrolls, I believe you just release back to a safe zone.
Keep in mind that the above may change, but I doubt the death penalty will be harsh or frustrating for players.
0
denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Currently we use Raise Dead scrolls and resurrection scrolls that are spent to revive yourself either where you have fallen or at the last respawn point you visited (depending on which scrolls you have handy). If you expend absolutely all your scrolls, I believe you just release back to a safe zone.
Keep in mind that the above may change, but I doubt the death penalty will be harsh or frustrating for players.
Thanks a lot for the news. This is really good (let's hope the cost of RD scrolls won't fall only on clerics -.-)
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
Currently we use Raise Dead scrolls and resurrection scrolls that are spent to revive yourself either where you have fallen or at the last respawn point you visited (depending on which scrolls you have handy). If you expend absolutely all your scrolls, I believe you just release back to a safe zone.
Keep in mind that the above may change, but I doubt the death penalty will be harsh or frustrating for players.
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
And there we have it folks! No penalty, but multiple options to come back from the dead when you have the scrolls for it! Will we lose our progress if we are out of scrolls and have to release though is an important question (and based on what I have seen in past games, I bet yes.)
Comments
Only in ad&d. In 3.5 you gained negative levels and in 4e you gain a bad penalty that goes away after a long time.
St. Augustinus
Simply put, if item degradation is included it has to exist for a purpose. And the one thing I hate above everything else: Having to pay real money to prevent items from losing durability when repairing.
As long as you can repair the equipment it actually does make some sense. If you are beat to death by some mob, your equipment must have had some damage. It is not much different then just paying a fee for dieing, just presented differently. The fact that your equipment stays damaged until you can repair it provides a longer penalty then just paying gold the moment you are rezzed.
Using GW2 as an example. If I die, I pay two penalty's. First is to transport to a portal, the other is to repair equipment. If I manage to rally after being beat down and do not die, I still have to pay to have my equipment repaired. This seems logical since I was beaten to a pulp but managed to come out alive. Also, the damage builds. If I get beaten down again before repairing, my equipment is damaged even more.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
I have no problem with item damage...just not the ONLY time is when you die.
What's the so-called "reason" for that? If I barely avoid not getting beaten to death, then by that logic, I should have some equipment damage still. Is there a reason if I survive, I am miraculously able to instantly repair all my stuff somehow able to be damaged this way after a combat with absolutely no listed prior damage? But let's say somehow, it only adds up if somebody dies. Fine. Let's look at "death causes item damage." Honestly.
The same mobs-who horde items like this we must kill to get and their items always miraculously take no damage when we take their stuff then they die-don't take mine if I die (leaving my stuff alone illogically,) then only damage it (and never tried to take it) if I revive? If we're going with a "pretend narrative you can imagine" in a role-playing vein or fantasy vein that is why so, all these sides need to be believed in, not just the "narrative" when you die.
No. We're asked to suspend our disbelief because if we got "damaged" items as rewards, the players would cry "unfair" over realism, and the makers know it's just going to be a mechanical agreement that we're just not showing damage for this.
Just like it's an agreement suggesting a mechanic to show a "damage penalty" only when you died.
It has nothing to do with coming back from death, and I just demonstrated it's not the "wear and tear" of combat. Whether that's right for this game or not I'll leave for another discussion.
Just that item damage for death (only) is outdated and unimaginative as much as MMO companies trying to make new games with only a subscription model: It just isn't believed anymore.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
When you say damage what klind of damage do you mean?
In DDO for example there are 2 kinds, regular damage from wear n tear as you "use" the item and then there's permanent damage that can occur when you "repair" it at a vendor. I like the system in DDO, it's something you need to keep an eye on but it's not overly onerous either.
You can even do some alchemical rituals to items that makes these items bound to you and thus non tradable but immune to permanent damage amongst other things. As for death damage I like it, it shows if you die your gears most likely took a beating so it's normal most of it has suffered damage.
I don't see a big deal to this issue if you don't die it's normal wear and tear that your gear"suffers" if you do die then presumable you fought hard and all your gear took more damage before you faceplanted.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
It may encourage players to log in with a different character to play. If I was solo'ing, I sure would play a different toon rather than wait it out. Or would it just frustrate the average player too much?
Me personally, I'd welcome this. It's be frustrated sure, because I often over extend myself in MMO's and end up as digital roadkill. But I'm also a lover of Pen and Paper D&D from way back (haven't played in a decade or more) and I recall having to think clearly about my next move, and should I die in the course of an adventure, I sat around eating chips and drinking pop until my party could throw my sorry HAMSTER over my pony and lead me back to town, and a temple to be resurrected. Aah, good time! But ya, with voice chat, you still have that... the jokes and smart remarks, the boo's and the complaints about what a dumb@ss move that was. You learn fast and don't repeat!
Just a thought.
Aes
The act of dieing alone angers people and I have seen many people simply insta-log because of their death, especially if there's no incentive to stay online.
When this feeling is coupled with a resurection timer then all hell can break lose.
Simply put this is the worst time you could further frustrate the player. I found it's better to let the player do anything other than watch a countdown timer after they die.
Of course this depends on how they implement it and for what purpose. League of Legends breaks this rule but have serious rules in place to keep players from 'rage quitting' and the timers themselves are the virtual key to the game balance. But overall this death punishment has to be carefully implemented into the core of the game and is a horrible choice for the standard MMO.
And your example shows a wear and tear option not just a death damages items option. This I can accept as your items damage from actual use. Whether permanent or not, that's another tier in that option.
From what little we've seen, you use some sort of a raise dead scroll which you (most likely) pay for and it teleports you back to a campfire. (I didn't save the video link as it was part in an entire segment, so if anybody remembers which video showed it and can repost it that would be great.) That's just what you described. If you meant teleport back to the fight, we haven't seen if they have that option or not yet. Based on Cryptic games, we either simply can respawn in a game (like STO) or we lose our progress if we leave and come back, which I hear they are having spawn points in this game. I'm curious if we have a spawn outside the game yet keep your place for 5 minutes like the DDO option instances?
I have to agree with this, even in DDO where death is not such a big deal we have rage quits because of dying and sometimes not even because they died but someone else in the party did lol
Has to be done carefully, it's been seen again and again in MMO's if the death penalty is to onerous peeps will walk away, if the game was to feature perma-death and full loot pvp then that would be a different story as the target audience would be very different.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Anyway on to topic:
Since this game is not going to be respawn festival we can also have slighly harder death penalties. Maybe Ghost Running like in WOW or something else. We do have trinity more or less in this game like TANKS(Guardian Fighter) and Healers(Cleric) and DPS(Control Wizard and Trickster Rogue... maybe also Ranger at release) and maybe more classes in the future.
I suspect it will not be respawn festival as Guild Wars 2(no thanks!) then we also could have death penalty that feels. Please no ridiculous system where everybody can resurect each other. However Clerics and maybe some other Healer class could resurect slightly so that players could be saved from Death Penalty.
That was a case in which the company chose a poor death mechanic for the gameplay they tried to promote.
Playing that game I literally felt like I wasted time if I or somebody else died on a quest. 10% is a hefty chunk of XP especially if it was your first run-through on the quest but it'sd not something I'd rage quit over.
Again I don't care if it's called bonus XP or not. Dieing was a -10% XP Loss, living was Standard XP.
But that wouldn't be all too bad if any one player's death didn't cause the same amount of loss for everybody in the party. It was like a punch in the gut to every person in the party when any person died...and it just didn't make sense to make a group oriented game cause such division between party members if somebody died.
If a game want's to promote group play they can't punish the entire group for one person's failure; at least not equally.
Each game has to consider what they're aiming to achieve and how best to promote it with their penalties. There's no one size fits all solution to death penalties and it really has to be carefully considered to fit the goals of each and every game and game's gameplay. DDO is a great example of how not to design a death penalty.
Actually just about every XP/grouping mechanic/F2P restriction and microtransaction DDO has is a great example of how not to do things.
DDO had a harsher death penalty where dying actually cost you xp but it was removed because of all the moaning about it, as for the 10% loss , it's nothing even on a 3rd lifer it's not a big deal there so much xp in the game.
Btw the 10% loss was not of the standard xp for the quest. The 10% is just a bonus you got for no one dying in the quest same as you can get a bonus to xp for ransacking etc. The 10% bonus was designed to get peeps to slow down and not zerg everything.
I am sorry but anyone that moans about this is just taking the game way to seriously and has forgotten what DnD is all about. DDO's death penalty was fine before they changed it and it's fine like it is now, the reality is that what a good death penalty is is very subjective the same way what is "fun" is subjective.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
I absolutely disagree. DDO has SO LITTLE xp, you need to run every quest over and over, especially on a third lifer. The only reason the TR system was implemented was to promote replayability of of older content so that the release of new content could continue at its glacial pace. That game is as grindy as it can get, and the epic XP system only made it worse. Free to play players can't even run the quest on the highest difficulty without running it on the 2 lower settings... grinding the same quest over and over is an inherent part of the game. Rightly so, because the developers can't afford to make enough content that you could level up characters in alternate zones without grinding. Compare this to a game like WoW or GW2, where you can level up characters in totally different parts of the world never seeing the same scenery twice. Even today, after their first ever expansion this year (first ever should be a hint as to how tiny the game is) the size of the DDO world, and therefore variety and availability in XP, just pales in comparison to most modern MMOs. Not getting XP because someone died is a penalty, even if they call it a bonus for surviving. That's just semantics. If DDO wasn't SO grindy, people wouldn't complain about XP penalties and XP/min. The obsession over XP/min is a testament to the lack of content/insanely high XP requirements in the game.
People are going to die. The DDO system of penalizing everyone in the group for the inevitable was stupid. The GW2 system of granting XP for rezzing was brilliant.
Heh I dunno what your talking about maybe you haven't played lately but its not that hard to level even on a third lifer, it's not even necessary to run the same quest more than once if you do elite and keep your bravery bonus going. DDO has a huge amount of XP to work with now. Hell I don't even bother with keeping MY BB bonus going on my second lives as BB is not even needed to hit 20.
Of course there some key quest you do want to repeat as they give huge amounts of xp, like von3 just to name one. For destiny Xp it can be boring but if you want a few level real fast in a destiny you run house of rusted blades, 15k xp or so under 1 min if you have a DD available.
It's not semantics the quest gives so much xp for completion and gives bonuses IF you choose to do them that gives you more xp but everyone wants it all but not to have to do the work. As for wow or gw2 I surely hope this game doesn't end up like those ones.
Oh one last thing as a f2p ( or premium since I have all the packs cept the last 2 that came out) I can assure you you don't need to run a quest higher than norm one the first life, or higher than hard on the 2nd or elite for the 3rd life. This also isn't an issue as on your second life you CAN OPEN on hard and on your 3rd life you CAN open on ELITE.
The open on elite on your first life a little vip advantage.
I will end saying if you consider it a grind running a quest 3 times well lol .....you want to know what real grinding is go play some nice little korean games then 1 year later when your only at like 3/4 the way to max level come and tell me DDO is grindy.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
And as far as amount of content goes I sure hope this ends up like WoW. That game is HUGE (I've never subbed, by the way, but I did play the beta. Even vanilla had a MUCH larger world than DDO has now).
Comparing DDO to grindy korean games isn't saying much... you're comparing the moss growing atop the stagnant water at the bottom of the barrel to each other.
You seem to have gotten used to the grind of the game in DDO, which is kind of sad. There's a lot of games where grinding simply isn't an issue.
But this is getting off topic. The topic is death penalties - DDO's is a 10% penalty to everyone in the group (even if it's worded as a 10% survival bonus). Bad design.
That's what I'm telling you though I have more than one third lifer and the game isn't like 2 years ago there's no need to repeat the same quest over n over n over, if with a tome of learning you are grinding the the same quests over n over n over you are doing something very very wrong lol.
Point is your saying DDO is lacking Xp and I'm telling you you are flat out wrong, here's a nice tidbit for ya you can max a first life toon just doing the explorers thought that WOULD be grindy and boring.
Would it be nice if ddo had more quest sure it would be but that's another thing and there's no need to exaggerate things. DDO is one of the easiest game to cap that I have played barring gw2 but then that was built for people that suffer from ADD.
Also if I can't compare DDO to a korean game then you can't compare DDO to wow seeing as one is an instanced lobby type game and the other is more of a seamless open world etc etc.
So my point is the death penalty is just fine in DDO because XP is a non issue no matter what life you are on and I'll just add in NWO it should be even bigger non issue seeing as the foundry will grant xp and so we should have plenty of content to run.
I will add I would like to see a similar BONUS to xp for non deaths during a delve. It's something that will require people to work together and keep an eye out for each others back and if they can't do that then they don't deserve the extra XP.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
I would be fine with having it be a choice between my original three
and adding the choice of durability loss and at least temporary stat lowering as 4 and 5.
Like I've said I like choices.
and I think 5 choices of penalties really makes it easier not to just want to quit on death.
freekimdotcom seems to agree with me.
Also if armor damage is added I want to address 3 things.
1. I think repair should be kind of like Diablo1 where when vendors repair it it takes no permanent damage but if you repair it, unless you are a master blacksmith, it will be repaired but take permanent lowering of max durability after repairing 2-3 times or making it where blacksmithing levels needed to create it vs. lvl of blacksmithing skill when fixing it(this creates a percentage which is told to the player on how likely you are to not permanently damage it while repairing, the game then allows a random percentile roll which decides whether or not it receives permanent damage.)[for example if a smith of lvl1 smithing tries to fix an item that takes lvl50 smithing to create they have only a 5% chance to not cause permanent damage.]
2.The vendor cost of repair will not exceed 10%-25% of the sell price of the hauls you bring in.
Diablo 3 did a horrible job of this at one point as I was just paying repair bills with all my rares and uniques.
3. NO "ethereal" items
ethereal item - slightly to moderately more "powered up" or magical items which can not be repaired.
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Well, when the TR system came out, no question it was to extend the limited content availability. Now one can argue both sides.
As for content availability per se, I also think it matters if we're talking VIP or free player on their freemium (or the user has paid only for certain areas.) I'd bet the user would claim a lot more grind if they were stuff with the free tier adventurers only.
Finally, in regards to xp bonus or penalty if dying, the group should NEVER be punished for an individual's death. If that means they lose the XP bonus, then fine. But that bonus/penalty should be ported to the individual reward xp multiplier. But that's technically gone.
Bluntly, the original setups for the system releases by Turbine are often...badly done. I can't sugar coat it. Look at the Enhancements for the characters, the Excuse why TR was made (no new or little new content then for many a capped PC,) the Epic XP, etc. If a game is done well, it makes you want to not only play the game, but try different things on it and go to different areas. DDO give the impression of lather, rinse, repeat to any person coming from the popular MMO games sive of content a factor as well (except maybe GW2 which goes too fast to cap which means you finished before rinsing sometimes it seems.) But yes, comparing it to certain Asian-market games is comparing Apples to Kimchee. And be thankful the micro transaction minutiae mandatory buys isn't in the Western world as default so much.
Currently we use Raise Dead scrolls and resurrection scrolls that are spent to revive yourself either where you have fallen or at the last respawn point you visited (depending on which scrolls you have handy). If you expend absolutely all your scrolls, I believe you just release back to a safe zone.
Keep in mind that the above may change, but I doubt the death penalty will be harsh or frustrating for players.
Thanks a lot for the news. This is really good (let's hope the cost of RD scrolls won't fall only on clerics -.-)
St. Augustinus
Great sounds good to me!
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Yeah, i hope so. I'm sick of bringing candles for all the raid party, if you know what i mean
St. Augustinus