I never said there is dynamic day night cycle. Did you read my post?
I showed how having dynamic day/night cycle is a step backwards from what they are offering.
insert the words "in my opinion" and your response would be better.
IMO, of course.
Looking at Champions Online and STO shows games without day and night cycle. Considering NWO is just a frosted version of those game engines, having a day and night cycle would be added workload that they just didn't budget for.
insert the words "in my opinion" and your response would be better.
...
That would be incorrect.
It is an argument backed by a detailed example.
Also,
Looking at Champions Online and STO shows games without day and night cycle. Considering NWO is just a frosted version of those game engines, having a day and night cycle would be added workload that they just didn't budget for.
If you check the replies from devs, post#35 Gameplay/Mechanics Question3, it says
Q:-Will there be night/day cycle? Or weather? A:-There is weather, but no dynamic day/night cycle. I'm a fan of day/night cycles too, but speaking from an artist's perspective it's a nightmare to set the mood/lighting of an environment if it keeps changing. The tech is certainly there (with its share of graphical problems) because we did it in Champions, so it can be done if it's something players feel would drastically improve the game.
If you read this, in last sentence it says "we already did it in champions" so CO has day/night cycle and engine supports it.
But the question remains - is it worth the effort or will it end up harming the game instead. For adventures take place in day and all npc are not going to stand at the same location during night also.
Hence such situations should be pushed into foundry to protect D&D realism. The dynamic day/night cycle will destroy the realism in game.
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mokahMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That would be incorrect.
It is an argument backed by a detailed example.
Also,
If you check the replies from devs, post#35 Gameplay/Mechanics Question3, it says
Hence such situations should be pushed into foundry to protect D&D realism. The dynamic day/night cycle will destroy the realism in game.
Again...all of this is your opinion. I disagree. I feel day/night cycles in NWN 1&2 add all sorts of realism. Also, you can control day/night cycling with the click of a check box if you are going for a certain mood and don't want the horrors of realistic lighting messing with your adventures.
What is a valid argument to have and something that Cryptic alluded too is the question "is it worth it?"
IMO, yes.
IYO, no.
I also don't remember watching a sunrise or sunset in CO. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure Cryptic version of dynamic is the same as NWN2.
I haven't been able to determine if it is possible to put items in inventory, and to trigger dialog and events off the presence/non-presence of said items. If so, can any items stay in inventory after the instance is left?
Anyone know?
I haven't been able to determine if it is possible to put items in inventory, and to trigger dialog and events off the presence/non-presence of said items. If so, can any items stay in inventory after the instance is left?
Anyone know?
I don't have the time to look it up, but I believe I read a dev quote that said you will be able to do triggers like that, but items will not stay with the character as this didn't work with the reward system. I could be wrong about this though.
This would mean if you had a multi-quest campaign going to say, "carry the one ring to Mordor" you'd have to find away to get the character the ring at the start of each quest... hmm that poses an interesting set of problems.
So you're going with a Cryptic employee saying it limits them artistically, but it's really another reason... ok.
I'm agree that it is more work than it is worth, which I think is the crux of his argument. It is not that it can't be done, but to do well, to fit with the tone and art of a game one needs to spend a great deal of time (i.e. money). It is not as simple as light/dark.
Wow, so much to update and clearly state new things in my FAQ. Edit: Massive reorganization on my Gameplay/Foundry section due to this!
Andy Velasquez: Players will not be able to script companion NPCs in the Foundry at launch. Notice that I said ?at launch?. Cryptic Studios has a long history of supporting our games post launch so this could be something that you might see in expansions moving forward.?
And you thought my potential missions would be hard before? If this is ever done...
Okay, but only once as the real life DM.
*Rubs hands evilly* MUHUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
With all my respect Truthseeker, i would not hold my breath...
Cryptic has also a long history of making promises they don t keep just to keep players around a bit longer...you know giving them hope...what they say and what they do are two different things...but don t worry stormshade will remind us that the game is involving and we should do the same...
They are also pretty good as developing new features which become rapidly useless after the novelty fades away(bridges and ship interiors in STO)
I think some forum members hit the nail on the head...it s all about money...dynamic light cycle is just not worth it working on. Period
Regarding the Foundry features, i would not expect too much at the beginning...and it s going to take time to get more well needed features. i remember the STO one came out so limited that authors had to find "tricks" to overcome its limitations and they still do. I remember that due to a very limited number of prefab building, they had to use some ships interior ones to make do...We all know that the Neverwinter Online foundry will be better but how much...it looks like we ll have much more freedom to create dungeons(tiles) than the outdoors(prefab map)...
From my past experience with Cryptic i am going to stay skeptical until i see facts and i m not going to take their words for granted...
some interesting quotes
Andy Velasquez: The Foundry will be completely free! I?d also like to clarify that we do not have any plans to sell things like monster packs or tile sets to Foundry authors at the moment.
that means you can change your mind? right?
Andy Velasquez: Foundry authors can certainly chain quests together into epic campaigns. However, we will not restrict access to later quests in any given campaign based on requirements to complete earlier quests. That?s because we want to allow users to explore Foundry content on their own terms, as freely as possible.
if you can play the last quest of a 5 quest campaign without playing the 4 before...it s not A campaign Andy, it s called making 5 independent quests following each others.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
I never said there is dynamic day night cycle. Did you read my post?
I showed how having dynamic day/night cycle is a step backwards from what they are offering.
You said day would come as we fight the werewolves.
"The change of day will depend on how much time you take fighting instead of story."
So I can just wait around in the area and day will come according to what you said. Cryptic said that's not going to happen, since there's no daynight cycle.
I'm going with what cryptic says as what's true.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
Hence such situations should be pushed into foundry to protect D&D realism. The dynamic day/night cycle will destroy the realism in game.
Yes, the rogue patiently waiting for nightfall and shadows, not realistic. Waiting for sunrise to weaken the vampires, not realistic. Perpetual night or day, much more realistic!
You said day would come as we fight the werewolves.
"The change of day will depend on how much time you take fighting instead of story."
So I can just wait around in the area and day will come according to what you said. Cryptic said that's not going to happen, since there's no daynight cycle.
Yes, the rogue patiently waiting for nightfall and shadows, not realistic. Waiting for sunrise to weaken the vampires, not realistic. Perpetual night or day, much more realistic!
<p.s. all bears must die in recent bear hunting season yay!!!>
Are you taking my words out of context deliberately or did you not follow the example I gave?
If not then I will explain all of it to you in detail so as to not cause any misunderstanding.
Lets say X MMO has a dynamic day/night cycle while Y MMO has not. And there is some foundry author Z.
So foundry author Z has to make a mission in which, in your words, "the rogue patiently waiting for nightfall".
Now X MMO has dynamic day/night cycle which changes with time so author has no control over it. He writes in a book "you wait for nighttime" but there is no tool for him to make sure the rogue waits for nighttime.
In case the author forces the nighttime, he has no way to judge how much time the players are actually taking to complete X part. If it was a single player or co-op, the author could force them to slow down or wait by sleeping or something - but such mechanics in MMO mean inviting its DOOM as not all players want to wait while playing an MMO (the same reason why MMO don't have slow mo or time stop skills).
Z goes on forums, tells players to pretend that they waited etc etc... just pretending but nothing in game.
~~~~
Now he takes up Y MMO. In Y, he decides that ok, when the rogue is jumping the cliffs, its day. When he reaches halfway on the mountain, its dusk. When he reaches the top of the mountain its almost night so he wait for dark. During dark he sneaks inside the castle.
Here Z has complete control over the daylight. All he has to do is to break the Quest down to different maps. It can even be the same map.
So in game, when player is playing, he climbs the mountain with a map of day sky. Then he sees the bed and a campfire. He goes to campfire where he is told to rest. Player rests/sleeps - and bam! you load next Quest or next map in your campaign. And continue. All the sleep/rest in between the loading screen. The next map has dusk in it. Then the rogue starts climbing next map (which is continuation of previous map). Similarly next map is night map.
~~~~
Whats even better is that the weather effects are not static but dynamic. So you can have rainfall down while climbing in the same map. But day and night are fixed and they quantify your story and your map size.
This shows the insight-fulness of developers when deciding the features of foundry. Its obvious they have used the foundry themselves while making it.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=
If still you say having erratic night day cycle is better storytelling than a static map dependent day or night, please give some detailed example detailing the specifics like above or I have nothing more to say.
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aelthas002Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
I do agree with gillrmn on this. Day/night cycles are nice but when telling a story its better to have accurate control for the author of what time of day or lighting you want it to be. Whether this is by scripting an in story resting spot and using the same map but at night it doesn't really matter. This method works better when actually telling a story instead of having a player wait around for it to turn day or night.
I am not against day/night cycles. I would like them to be implemented at some point even if it is for just the open world maps and not the instanced areas. It would be great to have the option of choosing day/night cycles and/or just having a set time on the map like i know NWN 2 and 1 have. However if its not in Cryptics' budget and if they can spend their time working on something more valuable for the game I believe that is something that can be sacrificed.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I used single quotes when I said it, not double quotes like you did, because I paraphrased since I didn't remember the exact words, I also said 'or something similar'.
In my opinion, your wording was not similar, but different.
To continue the metaphor, your meaning and their meaning are as different as night and day:
Will there be night/day cycle? Or weather?
There is weather, but no dynamic day/night cycle. I'm a fan of day/night cycles too, but speaking from an artist's perspective it's a nightmare to set the mood/lighting of an environment if it keeps changing. The tech is certainly there (with its share of graphical problems) because we did it in Champions, so it can be done if it's something players feel would drastically improve the game.
[snip]
Just because a few or some people want day cycles doesn't mean it's cost-effective enough to implement it. I'll explain why next.
As mentioned before, it's costly making artwork work in both a daylight and nighttime cycle (in regards to viewing all objects let alone individual lighting and shading for each object twice in day/night!) You literally double your work sometimes. Besides that, coding for a persistent time cycle and syncing it with each game "city" area (which is actually its own independent "shard" open zone...)well, these reasons are why most often games don't use a persistent cycle. I know some NWO game areas look like they have a "night" cycle" in the open world (that werewolf one) as well as the "day cycle" seen elsewhere. Know that if they have both, you can "select" how the sky is based on pre-made "layers" based on what the STO Foundry can do. Unlike the "ground-based combat missions" before, I know we're going to be seeing a LOT more outdoor effects.
[snip]
So it turns out the devs and I were in agreement. It's not 'artistic integrity,' but developmental hell having your workload multiplied. I'm sure if this game wasn't previously delayed an additional year to make it this MMO, and a lot of money were thrown at Cryptic above what already has been, and they hired a team of devs to focus on this, it could be done. But the people who would be requesting this would have to be notable to make them commit to this.
And respectfully, Foundry missions are instanced, meaning they are outside the persistent day/night cycle even IF day/night was implemented. Now IF they made persistent foundry missions (linked to open worlds) then we could discuss it. But as stories go, we "skip to" the important stuff, meaning we make day night noon dusk, etc via a new map state.
Of course. What he meant was that if you want to set your adventure in certain time - for example say you are fightining werewolves on a full moon night [who would only change in moon] having a day/night cycle will kill that part completely. The change of day will depend on how much time you take fighting instead of story. I fully agree with crypticmapolis here.
Instead, they should allow us to change the day and night by our will - by our choice of map. Having a map changing in a quest (e.g. after a rest) is better realistically speaking.
It's better we all don't have to wait for a literal time to do stuff, and if we did then we'd get to what the real-time to game time ratio was, and how authors could figure out when "published" mods go off when accessed.
It could be done, but since we have story-based events (Uthgar barbarians as werewolves use an open-world at night during a full moon as well as instanced quests,) it's a heck of a lot easier NOT to have a real world time cycle and just "introduce the time of day when the "adventurers arrive and it become an issue."
I don't have the time to look it up, but I believe I read a dev quote that said you will be able to do triggers like that, but items will not stay with the character as this didn't work with the reward system. I could be wrong about this though.
This would mean if you had a multi-quest campaign going to say, "carry the one ring to Mordor" you'd have to find away to get the character the ring at the start of each quest... hmm that poses an interesting set of problems.
Yes I CAN confirm you CAN set people's dialog options to be allowed/visible only on certain conditions, including having a quest or even multiple quest conditions including a quest item or items. It's a drop down and select subgroup drop if certain drop downs are chosen as the STO Foundry can show.
Yes, quest items (to stop exploits) do disappear when you leave a Foundry quest. It's challenging as I plan how to "reintroduce" a quest item in a planned campaign for each quest after it's intro once Foundry testing begins.
Yes, the rogue patiently waiting for nightfall and shadows, not realistic. Waiting for sunrise to weaken the vampires, not realistic. Perpetual night or day, much more realistic!
b:laugh
*Quest narration pop-up*
"You wait until nightfall/daylight before continuing."
Better than literally waiting. Could you imagine the book size if they literally did stories in real time?
Hour four, minute sixteen of the party sleeping....
Are you taking my words out of context deliberately or did you not follow the example I gave?
If not then I will explain all of it to you in detail so as to not cause any misunderstanding.
Lets say X MMO has a dynamic day/night cycle while Y MMO has not. And there is some foundry author Z.
So foundry author Z has to make a mission in which, in your words, "the rogue patiently waiting for nightfall".
Now X MMO has dynamic day/night cycle which changes with time so author has no control over it. He writes in a book "you wait for nighttime" but there is no tool for him to make sure the rogue waits for nighttime.
In case the author forces the nighttime, he has no way to judge how much time the players are actually taking to complete X part. If it was a single player or co-op, the author could force them to slow down or wait by sleeping or something - but such mechanics in MMO mean inviting its DOOM as not all players want to wait while playing an MMO (the same reason why MMO don't have slow mo or time stop skills).
Z goes on forums, tells players to pretend that they waited etc etc... just pretending but nothing in game.
~~~~
Now he takes up Y MMO. In Y, he decides that ok, when the rogue is jumping the cliffs, its day. When he reaches halfway on the mountain, its dusk. When he reaches the top of the mountain its almost night so he wait for dark. During dark he sneaks inside the castle.
Here Z has complete control over the daylight. All he has to do is to break the Quest down to different maps. It can even be the same map.
So in game, when player is playing, he climbs the mountain with a map of day sky. Then he sees the bed and a campfire. He goes to campfire where he is told to rest. Player rests/sleeps - and bam! you load next Quest or next map in your campaign. And continue. All the sleep/rest in between the loading screen. The next map has dusk in it. Then the rogue starts climbing next map (which is continuation of previous map). Similarly next map is night map.
~~~~
Whats even better is that the weather effects are not static but dynamic. So you can have rainfall down while climbing in the same map. But day and night are fixed and they quantify your story and your map size.
This shows the insight-fulness of developers when deciding the features of foundry. Its obvious they have used the foundry themselves while making it.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=
If still you say having erratic night day cycle is better storytelling than a static map dependent day or night, please give some detailed example detailing the specifics like above or I have nothing more to say.
So x+y+z-y+z-x+...wait....or was that x+y+z then X/Y*(y-x)-z...carry the 8...awww <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...
In my opinion, your wording was not similar, but different.
To continue the metaphor, your meaning and their meaning are as different as night and day:
And what I said:
So it turns out the devs and I were in agreement. It's not 'artistic integrity,' but developmental hell having your workload multiplied. I'm sure if this game wasn't previously delayed an additional year to make it this MMO, and a lot of money were thrown at Cryptic above what already has been, and they hired a team of devs to focus on this, it could be done. But the people who would be requesting this would have to be notable to make them commit to this.
If they're baking lighting into placeables themselves, they are limiting builders ("I can't use this tower, it's lit for daytime and my adventure is at night") and adding to their own workload because they have to make multiple versions of a placeable for different light conditions. Then, if they implemented daynight after the fact, they'd have to redo all their placeables to remove baked in lighting.
So they should do it right the first time. Remember, they announced PWE gave them the time to "do it right".
Since I mod a game that has a daynight cycle, let me tell you how complicated it is to use or not use the daynight cycle:
There's a checkbox.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If they're baking lighting into placeables themselves, they are limiting builders ("I can't use this tower, it's lit for daytime and my adventure is at night") and adding to their own workload because they have to make multiple versions of a placeable for different light conditions. Then, if they implemented daynight after the fact, they'd have to redo all their placeables to remove baked in lighting.
So they should do it right the first time. Remember, they announced PWE gave them the time to "do it right".
Since I mod a game that has a daynight cycle, let me tell you how complicated it is to use or not use the daynight cycle:
Lighting for outdoor maps is usually baked into sky artwork files.
Interior maps can have placeable lights in STO (including dynamic ones, like discotheque).
I apologize, but we're beyond opinion. Factually speaking, you're flat wrong.
Please read again. They are doing baking to the SKY layers not the ITEM effects. The Foundry uses sky layers. No tower or any building component for that matter has ANY baked effects. If you want a lighting effect or effects on a building, you will need to add it or them as a separate lighting component (s) just like you would place any item on a map as a separate object, and can place it or them at heights using a y-axis based on x,y,z axes if we're talking about said "tower" height things.
Before we continue (since you seem to be having some comprehension confusion on how this engine works,) have you actually used the Foundry engine before? I actually had to learn how the Foundry worked based on its upcoming release to Neverwinter, and I was a rank amateur with absolutely no module creation experience. Still, I was able to get how the modules work. I recommend if you have not done so to go to star trek online and sign up for a free account. If you take the tutorial, you can get free in game currency (called dilithium) that will allow you to access Foundry slots with no additional game play needed. Or stick around and play there.
I also recommend reading this forum thread here the Tavern UGC here and visiting Kirkfat's Back to Basics Foundry tutorial videos (Chapters 1-4 at the time of this reply) here, (Starbase UGC one of the best Foundry support sites BTW bar none.)
Are you taking my words out of context deliberately or did you not follow the example I gave?
If not then I will explain all of it to you in detail so as to not cause any misunderstanding.
Lets say X MMO has a dynamic day/night cycle while Y MMO has not. And there is some foundry author Z.
So foundry author Z has to make a mission in which, in your words, "the rogue patiently waiting for nightfall".
Now X MMO has dynamic day/night cycle which changes with time so author has no control over it. He writes in a book "you wait for nighttime" but there is no tool for him to make sure the rogue waits for nighttime.
In case the author forces the nighttime, he has no way to judge how much time the players are actually taking to complete X part. If it was a single player or co-op, the author could force them to slow down or wait by sleeping or something - but such mechanics in MMO mean inviting its DOOM as not all players want to wait while playing an MMO (the same reason why MMO don't have slow mo or time stop skills).
Z goes on forums, tells players to pretend that they waited etc etc... just pretending but nothing in game.
~~~~
Now he takes up Y MMO. In Y, he decides that ok, when the rogue is jumping the cliffs, its day. When he reaches halfway on the mountain, its dusk. When he reaches the top of the mountain its almost night so he wait for dark. During dark he sneaks inside the castle.
Here Z has complete control over the daylight. All he has to do is to break the Quest down to different maps. It can even be the same map.
So in game, when player is playing, he climbs the mountain with a map of day sky. Then he sees the bed and a campfire. He goes to campfire where he is told to rest. Player rests/sleeps - and bam! you load next Quest or next map in your campaign. And continue. All the sleep/rest in between the loading screen. The next map has dusk in it. Then the rogue starts climbing next map (which is continuation of previous map). Similarly next map is night map.
~~~~
Whats even better is that the weather effects are not static but dynamic. So you can have rainfall down while climbing in the same map. But day and night are fixed and they quantify your story and your map size.
This shows the insight-fulness of developers when deciding the features of foundry. Its obvious they have used the foundry themselves while making it.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=
If still you say having erratic night day cycle is better storytelling than a static map dependent day or night, please give some detailed example detailing the specifics like above or I have nothing more to say.
Here's how hard it is to give the Foundry author control over daynight:
A checkbox.
And here is your detailed example of storytelling. I'll use just what you said in your example:
'The werewolves are stronger under the full moon.'
Ok, now here it is with an implemented daynight, where the daynight is crucial to the story:
They grow progressively stronger as night falls and the moon comes out, you must defeat them before they are unstoppable.
It's a countdown timer, except instead of just some timer onscreen, the player is properly immersed because the timer is the environment itself, and it's visible to the pc not just the player, so it's not metagaming. It's vastly more immersive, from a rp perspective. And vastly better from a storytelling perspective, because you show it actually getting dark and the moon rising, instead of just displaying a countdown timer. It adds to the sense of player urgency because it's not obvious exactly how long the player has, raising tension.
Since providing the storytelling purpose of daynight for your very own example took maybe 10 seconds of brainstorming, and it's implementable via a checkbox and also provides superior rp, why would anyone not want to give Foundry authors the option?
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
I apologize, but we're beyond opinion. Factually speaking, you're flat wrong.
Please read again. They are doing baking to the SKY layers not the ITEM effects. The Foundry uses sky layers. No tower or any building component for that matter has ANY baked effects. If you want a lighting effect or effects on a building, you will need to add it or them as a separate lighting component (s) just like you would place any item on a map as a separate object, and can place it or them at heights using a y-axis based on x,y,z axes if we're talking about said "tower" height things.
Before we continue (since you seem to be having some comprehension confusion on how this engine works,) have you actually used the Foundry engine before? I actually had to learn how the Foundry worked based on its upcoming release to Neverwinter, and I was a rank amateur with absolutely no module creation experience. Still, I was able to get how the modules work. I recommend if you have not done so to go to star trek online and sign up for a free account. If you take the tutorial, you can get free in game currency (called dilithium) that will allow you to access Foundry slots with no additional game play needed. Or stick around and play there.
I also recommend reading this forum thread here the Tavern UGC here and visiting Kirkfat's Back to Basics Foundry tutorial videos (Chapters 1-4 at the time of this reply) here, (Starbase UGC one of the best Foundry support sites BTW bar none.)
Ahh, good. I wanted to see someone say both that it's not actually an art problem, and the removal of a feature that's already in their engine (CO does daynight). And then defend the removal of a feature that can be turned on or off by the Foundry author via a checkbox, and can be integral to storytelling as I showed a post above, as an improvement.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Why not encourage Cryptic to do it right, and give Foundry authors the choice?
Here's how hard it is to give the Foundry author control over daynight:
A checkbox.
And here is your detailed example of storytelling. I'll use just what you said in your example:
'The werewolves are stronger under the full moon.'
Ok, now here it is with an implemented daynight, where the daynight is crucial to the story:
They grow progressively stronger as night falls and the moon comes out, you must defeat them before they are unstoppable.
It's a countdown timer, except instead of just some timer onscreen, the player is properly immersed because the timer is the environment itself, and it's visible to the pc not just the player, so it's not metagaming. It's vastly more immersive, from a rp perspective. And vastly better from a storytelling perspective, because you show it actually getting dark and the moon rising, instead of just displaying a countdown timer. It adds to the sense of player urgency because it's not obvious exactly how long the player has, raising tension.
Since providing the storytelling purpose of daynight for your very own example took maybe 10 seconds of brainstorming, and it's implementable via a checkbox and also provides superior rp, why would anyone not want to give Foundry authors the option?
As I said before:-
If still you say having erratic night day cycle is better storytelling than a static map dependent day or night, please give some detailed example detailing the specifics like above or I have nothing more to say.
This is because you are talking very vaguely. So unless you can give an example I have nothing more to say as it is like shooting magic missles in darkness. If you can give specific example which shows that "having erratic night day cycle is better storytelling" other than your only defense of such an option being:
"There is an option to use either static or dynamic"
I don't really have much to say. You can start by asking yourself, where is it that dynamic times in storytelling has a better utility other than just being eyecandy in a foundry content?
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
As I said before:-
This is because you are talking very vaguely. So unless you can give an example I have nothing more to say as it is like shooting magic missles in darkness. If you can give specific example which shows that "having erratic night day cycle is better storytelling" other than your only defense of such an option being:
"There is an option to use either static or dynamic"
I don't really have much to say. You can start by asking yourself, where is it that dynamic times in storytelling has a better utility other than just being eyecandy in a foundry content?
The funny part of what you are writing is that you quoted where I provided a specific storytelling reason for daynight in your very own example (werewolves that are stronger at full moon) where I show that daynight is critical to success/failure of the quest, integral to the story, and serves a gameplay function, is as difficult to implement as a checkbox, and you respond I am being vague.
Would you like a picture of the use daynight checkbox from a toolset that has it?
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2012
Okay, I feel plenty has been said on both sides of the coin for day and night cycles. How about we sit back and let others chime in their opinions instead of just a couple of us arguing back and forth as to which opinion is better.
I was bummed at first being a rogue and all that there was not going to be a night, but then again, if not adding on a night/day cycle get's the game into my greedy little hands faster, so much the better!
This city promises death for the meek, glory for the bold, danger for all, and riches for Jade! Elven Trickster Rogue: Two-bladed elf, tons of stabby stabby and that sort of thing...
| R. A. Salvatore | My Minions | Forgotten Realms Wiki | Elven Translator |
I was bummed at first being a rogue and all that there was not going to be a night, but then again, if not adding on a night/day cycle get's the game into my greedy little hands faster, so much the better!
I believe you are misreading it. They never said it is not going to be night. If you see the first trailer, it is under the moon (Selune be praised). Night would obviously be there as shown in Vellosk videos too.
The question here is about dynamic Vs static night day cycle.
i.e. If you define a map as night, should it always remain night (and thus let you do whole map in nighttime) or it should have dynamic cycle which corresponds to real time as in other MMO games (e.g. in some MMO, a day is equivalent to 6 hours of real time).
At launch, crypticmapolis said that there won't be any automatic night/day cycles (dynamic night/day). So if you define a map as night, it will have night until you load the next map which would have the time of day defined as per that map's setting.
EDIT: Also day/night are not the only enviornmental effects. You know that shadowvar has merged after that magical elf using dark powers opened the portal to shadowvar?
So there ahould be another setting too - of shadovar region's sky.
And eladrin also should have their own kind of maps.
To correctly implement dynamic cycle of night/day would be too complex - remember they will have to change shape of moon with time too - that would mean having at least seven layers of sky burned to a single map. That will increase the loading times for the mas too.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
In a game that has a daynight cycle, they "extra load time" is a single extra texture and object in the gameworld (to handle the sun or moon, depending on what's opposite to starting time for the area). So, functionally zero extra load time.
They said they're doing dynamic weather. If they're doing it right, it would already get dark during rain and such, and clouds could actually be between the player and the sun.
Comments
insert the words "in my opinion" and your response would be better.
IMO, of course.
Looking at Champions Online and STO shows games without day and night cycle. Considering NWO is just a frosted version of those game engines, having a day and night cycle would be added workload that they just didn't budget for.
A step backward? Hardly.
It is an argument backed by a detailed example.
Also,
If you check the replies from devs, post#35 Gameplay/Mechanics Question3, it says If you read this, in last sentence it says "we already did it in champions" so CO has day/night cycle and engine supports it.
But the question remains - is it worth the effort or will it end up harming the game instead. For adventures take place in day and all npc are not going to stand at the same location during night also.
Hence such situations should be pushed into foundry to protect D&D realism. The dynamic day/night cycle will destroy the realism in game.
Again...all of this is your opinion. I disagree. I feel day/night cycles in NWN 1&2 add all sorts of realism. Also, you can control day/night cycling with the click of a check box if you are going for a certain mood and don't want the horrors of realistic lighting messing with your adventures.
What is a valid argument to have and something that Cryptic alluded too is the question "is it worth it?"
IMO, yes.
IYO, no.
I also don't remember watching a sunrise or sunset in CO. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure Cryptic version of dynamic is the same as NWN2.
Anyone know?
I don't have the time to look it up, but I believe I read a dev quote that said you will be able to do triggers like that, but items will not stay with the character as this didn't work with the reward system. I could be wrong about this though.
This would mean if you had a multi-quest campaign going to say, "carry the one ring to Mordor" you'd have to find away to get the character the ring at the start of each quest... hmm that poses an interesting set of problems.
I'm agree that it is more work than it is worth, which I think is the crux of his argument. It is not that it can't be done, but to do well, to fit with the tone and art of a game one needs to spend a great deal of time (i.e. money). It is not as simple as light/dark.
With all my respect Truthseeker, i would not hold my breath...
Cryptic has also a long history of making promises they don t keep just to keep players around a bit longer...you know giving them hope...what they say and what they do are two different things...but don t worry stormshade will remind us that the game is involving and we should do the same...
They are also pretty good as developing new features which become rapidly useless after the novelty fades away(bridges and ship interiors in STO)
I think some forum members hit the nail on the head...it s all about money...dynamic light cycle is just not worth it working on. Period
Regarding the Foundry features, i would not expect too much at the beginning...and it s going to take time to get more well needed features. i remember the STO one came out so limited that authors had to find "tricks" to overcome its limitations and they still do. I remember that due to a very limited number of prefab building, they had to use some ships interior ones to make do...We all know that the Neverwinter Online foundry will be better but how much...it looks like we ll have much more freedom to create dungeons(tiles) than the outdoors(prefab map)...
From my past experience with Cryptic i am going to stay skeptical until i see facts and i m not going to take their words for granted...
some interesting quotes
that means you can change your mind? right?
if you can play the last quest of a 5 quest campaign without playing the 4 before...it s not A campaign Andy, it s called making 5 independent quests following each others.
"The change of day will depend on how much time you take fighting instead of story."
So I can just wait around in the area and day will come according to what you said. Cryptic said that's not going to happen, since there's no daynight cycle.
I'm going with what cryptic says as what's true.
b:laugh
Are you taking my words out of context deliberately or did you not follow the example I gave?
If not then I will explain all of it to you in detail so as to not cause any misunderstanding.
Lets say X MMO has a dynamic day/night cycle while Y MMO has not. And there is some foundry author Z.
So foundry author Z has to make a mission in which, in your words, "the rogue patiently waiting for nightfall".
Now X MMO has dynamic day/night cycle which changes with time so author has no control over it. He writes in a book "you wait for nighttime" but there is no tool for him to make sure the rogue waits for nighttime.
In case the author forces the nighttime, he has no way to judge how much time the players are actually taking to complete X part. If it was a single player or co-op, the author could force them to slow down or wait by sleeping or something - but such mechanics in MMO mean inviting its DOOM as not all players want to wait while playing an MMO (the same reason why MMO don't have slow mo or time stop skills).
Z goes on forums, tells players to pretend that they waited etc etc... just pretending but nothing in game.
Now he takes up Y MMO. In Y, he decides that ok, when the rogue is jumping the cliffs, its day. When he reaches halfway on the mountain, its dusk. When he reaches the top of the mountain its almost night so he wait for dark. During dark he sneaks inside the castle.
Here Z has complete control over the daylight. All he has to do is to break the Quest down to different maps. It can even be the same map.
So in game, when player is playing, he climbs the mountain with a map of day sky. Then he sees the bed and a campfire. He goes to campfire where he is told to rest. Player rests/sleeps - and bam! you load next Quest or next map in your campaign. And continue. All the sleep/rest in between the loading screen. The next map has dusk in it. Then the rogue starts climbing next map (which is continuation of previous map). Similarly next map is night map.
Whats even better is that the weather effects are not static but dynamic. So you can have rainfall down while climbing in the same map. But day and night are fixed and they quantify your story and your map size.
This shows the insight-fulness of developers when deciding the features of foundry. Its obvious they have used the foundry themselves while making it.
I am not against day/night cycles. I would like them to be implemented at some point even if it is for just the open world maps and not the instanced areas. It would be great to have the option of choosing day/night cycles and/or just having a set time on the map like i know NWN 2 and 1 have. However if its not in Cryptics' budget and if they can spend their time working on something more valuable for the game I believe that is something that can be sacrificed.
In my opinion, your wording was not similar, but different.
To continue the metaphor, your meaning and their meaning are as different as night and day:
And what I said:
So it turns out the devs and I were in agreement. It's not 'artistic integrity,' but developmental hell having your workload multiplied. I'm sure if this game wasn't previously delayed an additional year to make it this MMO, and a lot of money were thrown at Cryptic above what already has been, and they hired a team of devs to focus on this, it could be done. But the people who would be requesting this would have to be notable to make them commit to this.
And respectfully, Foundry missions are instanced, meaning they are outside the persistent day/night cycle even IF day/night was implemented. Now IF they made persistent foundry missions (linked to open worlds) then we could discuss it. But as stories go, we "skip to" the important stuff, meaning we make day night noon dusk, etc via a new map state.
It's better we all don't have to wait for a literal time to do stuff, and if we did then we'd get to what the real-time to game time ratio was, and how authors could figure out when "published" mods go off when accessed.
It could be done, but since we have story-based events (Uthgar barbarians as werewolves use an open-world at night during a full moon as well as instanced quests,) it's a heck of a lot easier NOT to have a real world time cycle and just "introduce the time of day when the "adventurers arrive and it become an issue."
Yes I CAN confirm you CAN set people's dialog options to be allowed/visible only on certain conditions, including having a quest or even multiple quest conditions including a quest item or items. It's a drop down and select subgroup drop if certain drop downs are chosen as the STO Foundry can show.
Yes, quest items (to stop exploits) do disappear when you leave a Foundry quest. It's challenging as I plan how to "reintroduce" a quest item in a planned campaign for each quest after it's intro once Foundry testing begins.
*Quest narration pop-up*
"You wait until nightfall/daylight before continuing."
Better than literally waiting. Could you imagine the book size if they literally did stories in real time?
Hour four, minute sixteen of the party sleeping....
So x+y+z-y+z-x+...wait....or was that x+y+z then X/Y*(y-x)-z...carry the 8...awww <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...
TIME PASSES!
So they should do it right the first time. Remember, they announced PWE gave them the time to "do it right".
Since I mod a game that has a daynight cycle, let me tell you how complicated it is to use or not use the daynight cycle:
There's a checkbox.
I apologize, but we're beyond opinion. Factually speaking, you're flat wrong.
Please read again. They are doing baking to the SKY layers not the ITEM effects. The Foundry uses sky layers. No tower or any building component for that matter has ANY baked effects. If you want a lighting effect or effects on a building, you will need to add it or them as a separate lighting component (s) just like you would place any item on a map as a separate object, and can place it or them at heights using a y-axis based on x,y,z axes if we're talking about said "tower" height things.
Before we continue (since you seem to be having some comprehension confusion on how this engine works,) have you actually used the Foundry engine before? I actually had to learn how the Foundry worked based on its upcoming release to Neverwinter, and I was a rank amateur with absolutely no module creation experience. Still, I was able to get how the modules work. I recommend if you have not done so to go to star trek online and sign up for a free account. If you take the tutorial, you can get free in game currency (called dilithium) that will allow you to access Foundry slots with no additional game play needed. Or stick around and play there.
I also recommend reading this forum thread here the Tavern UGC here and visiting Kirkfat's Back to Basics Foundry tutorial videos (Chapters 1-4 at the time of this reply) here, (Starbase UGC one of the best Foundry support sites BTW bar none.)
A checkbox.
And here is your detailed example of storytelling. I'll use just what you said in your example:
'The werewolves are stronger under the full moon.'
Ok, now here it is with an implemented daynight, where the daynight is crucial to the story:
They grow progressively stronger as night falls and the moon comes out, you must defeat them before they are unstoppable.
It's a countdown timer, except instead of just some timer onscreen, the player is properly immersed because the timer is the environment itself, and it's visible to the pc not just the player, so it's not metagaming. It's vastly more immersive, from a rp perspective. And vastly better from a storytelling perspective, because you show it actually getting dark and the moon rising, instead of just displaying a countdown timer. It adds to the sense of player urgency because it's not obvious exactly how long the player has, raising tension.
Since providing the storytelling purpose of daynight for your very own example took maybe 10 seconds of brainstorming, and it's implementable via a checkbox and also provides superior rp, why would anyone not want to give Foundry authors the option?
"There is an option to use either static or dynamic"
I don't really have much to say. You can start by asking yourself, where is it that dynamic times in storytelling has a better utility other than just being eyecandy in a foundry content?
Would you like a picture of the use daynight checkbox from a toolset that has it?
Thanks,
~Zeb
PWE Community Moderator
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The question here is about dynamic Vs static night day cycle.
i.e. If you define a map as night, should it always remain night (and thus let you do whole map in nighttime) or it should have dynamic cycle which corresponds to real time as in other MMO games (e.g. in some MMO, a day is equivalent to 6 hours of real time).
At launch, crypticmapolis said that there won't be any automatic night/day cycles (dynamic night/day). So if you define a map as night, it will have night until you load the next map which would have the time of day defined as per that map's setting.
EDIT: Also day/night are not the only enviornmental effects. You know that shadowvar has merged after that magical elf using dark powers opened the portal to shadowvar?
So there ahould be another setting too - of shadovar region's sky.
And eladrin also should have their own kind of maps.
To correctly implement dynamic cycle of night/day would be too complex - remember they will have to change shape of moon with time too - that would mean having at least seven layers of sky burned to a single map. That will increase the loading times for the mas too.
They said they're doing dynamic weather. If they're doing it right, it would already get dark during rain and such, and clouds could actually be between the player and the sun.