Hmm, the idea of casting spells without memorizing seems, well, just quite a different than in the previous editions (and really great to make a MMORPG game anyway), but I have a question about the core ruleset of 4e. Does it mean that wizards are limited to learn only two spells per level and they cannot create any new spells? Or they can actually still invent some new effects by the research and/or learn adittional magic, cause that's a bit fuzzy for me.
0
denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
but I have a question about the core ruleset of 4e. Does it mean that wizards are limited to learn only two spells per level and they cannot create any new spells? Or they can actually still invent some new effects by the research and/or learn adittional magic, cause that's a bit fuzzy for me.
Uhm, this kinda falls into Rule 0 imho. Your DM can decide to allow (or deny) access to "personalized" magic. The spellbook, anyway, is fixed to 2 spells per level.
Yes, it's very different from the classical vancian system, but it worked really well, especially for game balance. I can tell you, for instance, that (to keep this kind of balance between casters and non-casters) in d&d next casters get 2 spell slots per day as a cap (the cap in 3.5 was 4 spells per day without bonus slots).
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Hmm, the idea of casting spells without memorizing seems, well, just quite a different than in the previous editions (and really great to make a MMORPG game anyway), but I have a question about the core ruleset of 4e. Does it mean that wizards are limited to learn only two spells per level and they cannot create any new spells? Or they can actually still invent some new effects by the research and/or learn adittional magic, cause that's a bit fuzzy for me.
Since we're using a non Vancian or non-memorization method in 4e and spells are done differently in 4e it's not as simple an answer.
Every class uses powers. Fighters use Exploits for example, and wizards use spells. Both classes still use at will (always available to use every combat round) Encounter (can use once a combat encounter) and Daily (can use once before having to rest 6 hours) Powers. You get short rests between encounters about 5 minutes time, unlike the speed of combat where every round is still (about) six seconds in estimation if you will. Turns have been done away with as a measurement of 10 rounds is one turn, and most things are listed to happen at the beginning/ending of your/the target's turn or round of combat. Minutes are still used of course.
The powers are made for that class and to work with other classes and their roles. For instance a fighter is a defender, a cleric a leader (healer and buffer,) a rogue is a striker and a wizard is a (crowd) controller.
All classes start with two at will (except humans can choose an optional third at-will or a reroll once an encounter ability,) one encounter and one daily power. Your class can choose from a list of different At-will/Encounter/Daily powers to selct once, but you only know that number (two or one) until you rise high enough in level to learn a new Encounter/Daily power which you choose from a list of multiple ones and pick one.
If you find you don't like a power, once a new level, you can retrain a power for another one of that level (or lower if you truly wish.) Or you could choose to retrain a feat or skill instead. Not mandatory mind you, optional. Later, you can even swap low-level powers for higher level powers as you enter Paragon/Epic tiers to have your class be competitive with the enemies. Technically some specialty wizards introduced later in the Fourth Edition called Mages and a similar setup called a Sha'ir DO allow you to have multiple daily powers per level you get a daily power and each extended (6 hour) rest you can choose which daily power you "memorize" and can use. That's about the only "spell memorization" there is in 4e.
Another things wizards automatically get and other classes sometimes do or have to spend a feat to access is they get rituals.
Rituals are much more powerful than the current spells or other class powers currently are, but take longer to "cast" than the at-will, encounter, or daily would be able to do in combat. Often they use skills to "check" how well they perform/last. It's not just for wizards or priests anymore, but sometimes certain classes may be restricted to certain types (such as rangers may only cast nature rituals, etc.) So, for instance, magic missile is now an at will power that shoots a missile unerringly at a target every round if used, but magic mouth is a ritual that takes 10 minutes to cast and set up belonging to Exploration and uses Arcana.
So, the long story short to that question is:
While technically a DM could work with you to make wizard "spell research," what you'd be doing is likely swapping out a power for this newly found one, or acquiring a ritual that is not castable in combat times allowed.
Thank you very much, that was the most comprehensible description of this power-based 4ed system I could have found so far. I'm still not very sure whether I'd like it same like the classical AD&D or the Pathfinder ruleset, but now I think I'm going to give it a try (and finally I know how the actual Neverwinter gameplay should work according to the system ;-) ).
0
bloodletter24Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 44Arc User
Uhm, this kinda falls into Rule 0 imho. Your DM can decide to allow (or deny) access to "personalized" magic. The spellbook, anyway, is fixed to 2 spells per level.
Yes, it's very different from the classical vancian system, but it worked really well, especially for game balance. I can tell you, for instance, that (to keep this kind of balance between casters and non-casters) in d&d next casters get 2 spell slots per day as a cap (the cap in 3.5 was 4 spells per day without bonus slots).
<removed>. I think that making all classes balanced is HAMSTER. Some classes/builds are tougher than others thats the way it is and always has been in DnD. Just like in forgotten realm books I have read many. Not everyone is walking around like Drizzt Do'urden Some classes/builds you just do not want to mess with. I have been a dm since 1st edition and have played every edition after, tell 4th edition which seems more like a mmo tank/dps/healer/crowd control set up. If I wanted to play a system like that I would play wow. I have had no problem with 3.5 It seems to work even outside pnp such as in the NWN2 server Baldurs gate sword coast chronicals. Yes there is some exploits but so what? Lets take DnD and instead of leaving it three dimensional will make it two diminsional and make all classes the same power level <removed>! <removed>! DnD has never been about balance; its about playing a persona. Rather your class is more powerful then the guy next to you did not mean <removed> it was about playing the character you like. Yes everyone liked to be powerful but some were more powerful than others. You had many factors class level, magic items,wards,stealth,wealth, and so on. If you wanted to be a power build then so be it. If you wanted to be a stealthy but deadly rogue then so be it. If you wanted to play a cleric that was crazy but harnessed great power through his god then so be it. Or perhaps you were a fighter that had become a vampire which made you deadly so what. NO NO NO this is the modern day of everything must be balanced....................... I ask you why?
0
bloodletter24Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 44Arc User
edited December 2012
Wow sounds just like World of war HAMSTER. Iamtruthseeker.
0
denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
this is the modern day of everything must be balanced....................... I ask you why?
Simply because most players don't accept being less powerful that others without a reason. I guess that this says all. Being balanced is the #1 issue of every game (not only tabletop), and your theory that other editions are purposely unbalanced is not coherent with my experience.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
0
bloodletter24Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 44Arc User
edited December 2012
"
Originally Posted by denkasaeba
Simply because most players don't accept being less powerful that others without a reason. I guess that this says all. Being balanced is the #1 issue of every game (not only tabletop), and your theory that other editions are purposely unbalanced is not coherent with my experience.
Then do not play DnD. Ever since I have played DnD some class have been more powerful than others. But each class was unigue in its own way. Take bard for example. They are powerful when it comes to buffing a party but in a one on one encounter with an evil paladin the bard would be wise to run or, have some plan in place to take the paladin down maybe even a powerful magic item. Everyone at my table top played the class they want to play regardless of power level. In my experience 3.5 works just fine. None caster classes just got to find ways to deal with the fact they are not caster. UMD skill+potion or scrolls works just fine. Also I never said that 1st edition and up was purposely unbalanced but not everything was balance out so everyone was the same. What I love about 3.5 is that you can build so many different characters and yes some of them are more powerful. If thats what you want to play then learn how to build its fun. This balance thing is for the lazy that do not want to take the time to learn how to build there characters they just want the system to do it for them. If you are not worried about being the most powerful build out on the market then no worries. It comes down to choices thats what DnD is about not balance between every class. I mean there is so many ways to build in 3.5 you have pve builds and pvp builds Its just an awsome system that in my opinion is not broke. Why fix it? "Less powerful than others without a reason" Reason is learn how to build. I on the other hand need to learn how to do this forum stuff.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Simply because most players don't accept being less powerful that others without a reason. I guess that this says all. Being balanced is the #1 issue of every game (not only tabletop), and your theory that other editions are purposely unbalanced is not coherent with my experience.
Then do not play DnD. Ever since I have played DnD some class have been more powerful than others. But each class was unigue in its own way. Take bard for example. They are powerful when it comes to buffing a party but in a one on one encounter with an evil paladin the bard would be wise to run or, have some plan in place to take the paladin down maybe even a powerful magic item. Everyone at my table top played the class they want to play regardless of power level. In my experience 3.5 works just fine. None caster classes just got to find ways to deal with the fact they are not caster. UMD skill+potion or scrolls works just fine. Also I never said that 1st edition and up was purposely unbalanced but not everything was balance out so everyone was the same. What I love about 3.5 is that you can build so many different characters and yes some of them are more powerful. If thats what you want to play then learn how to build its fun. This balance thing is for the lazy that do not want to take the time to learn how to build there characters they just want the system to do it for them. If you are not worried about being the most powerful build out on the market then no worries. It comes down to choices thats what DnD is about not balance between every class. I mean there is so many ways to build in 3.5 you have pve builds and pvp builds Its just an awsome system that in my opinion is not broke. Why fix it? "Less powerful than others without a reason" Reason is learn how to build. I on the other hand need to learn how to do this forum stuff.
4th ed the PnP had all class roles balanced so you weren't ridiculously useless in the beginning/end of your career without some obscure specialization in some area. I can't say whether or not they kept this theme in the upcoming MMO. I'm sure some characters will be more or less powerful than others, but we will be the ones who decide balanced vs OP, and the company will decide from our feedback whether to change said abilities to make the MMO more balanced-the most dangerous thing to try and "adjust" in an MMO post launch.
So, just to try and get if out of my system now....
OP OP OP OP OP OP OP!
NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF!
The good part of playing with the wizard is that you can learn all the spells in the game! You can learn them from scrolls,books, trainers etc.
That is what i want to see so i can feel like a wizard. I don't care about 2,3,4e rules just make learning spells happen like in baldur's gate.
0
denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
"Then do not play DnD. Ever since I have played DnD some class have been more powerful than others. But each class was unigue in its own way. Take bard for example. They are powerful when it comes to buffing a party but in a one on one encounter with an evil paladin the bard would be wise to run or, have some plan in place to take the paladin down maybe even a powerful magic item. Everyone at my table top played the class they want to play regardless of power level. In my experience 3.5 works just fine. None caster classes just got to find ways to deal with the fact they are not caster. UMD skill+potion or scrolls works just fine. Also I never said that 1st edition and up was purposely unbalanced but not everything was balance out so everyone was the same. What I love about 3.5 is that you can build so many different characters and yes some of them are more powerful. If thats what you want to play then learn how to build its fun. This balance thing is for the lazy that do not want to take the time to learn how to build there characters they just want the system to do it for them. If you are not worried about being the most powerful build out on the market then no worries. It comes down to choices thats what DnD is about not balance between every class. I mean there is so many ways to build in 3.5 you have pve builds and pvp builds Its just an awsome system that in my opinion is not broke. Why fix it? "Less powerful than others without a reason" Reason is learn how to build. I on the other hand need to learn how to do this forum stuff.
I'm not new about the concept of min maxing and optimization. I have followed character optimization process since 2nd edition, and, in 4e, i can safely say that I AM wizard class optimization. That said, i still don't agree with you: you think that every class and every build has the same optimization potential. This is wrong on many different levels. For instance, 3.5 a lvel 20 Paladin was complete and utter garbage compared to a melee class with high charisma who took 2 levels in paladin class.
I guess i can say we agree to disagree, to end the discussion. (And please... there is no "pvp" in D&D... it's just a horrible concept for "angry with life" teenagers)
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
0
bloodletter24Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 44Arc User
edited December 2012
DnD as a game around many other players better have pvp. I love pvp in neverwinter night 2 and I am 33 years old. No Im saying the opposite that not all classes can be optimized the same. You go buy neverwinter nights 2 and load up Baldur gate sword coast chronicals and find you a level 20 pure paladin and take him on. You will see that paladins are very dangerous. Even better yet go take on a 30th level Paladin and you will surely die if you do not have the build for it or, know what you need to do to beat the paladin. You must not know the paladins spell selection that well. Also if you are evil you are in even more trouble just look at smite evil. The paladin gets to add his charisma bonus to his ab and does +1 more damage per paladin level. So a 30th level paladin would do +30 damage to his attacks If he crits you um yeah. Paladins are the best melee class in the game. I speak from experience. I have played neverwinter night 2 multi player for over 4 years.
0
galvayraMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This right here, this is the cancer that kills D&D
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
0
aavariusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
I just want to throw in something I've recently fallen in love with to mix up the PvP discussion. Check out the Overview tab to see what it's all about.
Iam really worried about this .. at 1:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vNMqSWF1aU
You can see wizards spell tree /book or what it is and it has very few spells at diferent level acces .. looks terrible to me .. is kinda like diablo 3 system with very few spells .. whole game concept looks too much similiar to diablo 3. They should focus on copy DDO (which is in my eyes nearly perfect) and not (medicore) D3.
From what i saw in demo presentation, game looks really dumped down to make it for conzole market (and I loved Neverwinter 2). Why only 9 spells to use ? There are hundreds of spells in DDO. Even generic MMOS like WOW has more spells to use. It looks like very action oriented but why is majority of spells on cd then ? I dont like it.
Also the combat walk looks awfull I hope its just pre alpha reason. And why character walk and run so slow ?
I give to a try but my expectation are on almost zero level.
I just checked my 20 lvl Sorc in DDO and she is using 32 spells. So again 9 spells even on cooldowns is pathetic for me. Its not DnD of any kind.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Iam really worried about this .. at 1:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vNMqSWF1aU
You can see wizards spell tree /book or what it is and it has very few spells at diferent level acces .. looks terrible to me .. is kinda like diablo 3 system with very few spells .. whole game concept looks too much similiar to diablo 3. They should focus on copy DDO (which is in my eyes nearly perfect) and not (medicore) D3.
From what i saw in demo presentation, game looks really dumped down to make it for conzole market (and I loved Neverwinter 2). Why only 9 spells to use ? There are hundreds of spells in DDO. Even generic MMOS like WOW has more spells to use. It looks like very action oriented but why is majority of spells on cd then ? I dont like it.
Also the combat walk looks awfull I hope its just pre alpha reason. And why character walk and run so slow ?
I give to a try but my expectation are on almost zero level.
I just checked my 20 lvl Sorc in DDO and she is using 32 spells. So again 9 spells even on cooldowns is pathetic for me. Its not DnD of any kind.
Due to your spelling on several words, I will summarize to make sure I read it properly and not got the wrong word meanings for a few other similar:
You think Diablo 3 is terrible and DDO is perfect for D&D MMOs. You think it's dumbed down (not stuff removed or dumpted down if you will) for the console market (edit: Duhh cooldown my mistake, see answer what at will encounter and daily mean, so no they are not.) And you say graphical MMO's are like WOW and have more spells. The "combat walk" looks auful. Finally you repeat the same thing mentioning 32 over 9 spells.
Firstly if you understand the action MMO on PC's not consoles, then you have your answer. This is not a tab and click combat game, this is an aim and fire combat game. This means not only do you need fewer skills ACTIVCE at any one time to manage running away from enemies and defending with powers and firing with powers, having more requires massive toolbars storing them which I HATED for "spellcasters" on the old click and forget especially ruining the screen space. Literally from the NWO demo I can say any more than 2 at wills 3 encounters two dailies and a utility I would have had difficulty finding where the powers were without a programmed game keyboard/gamepad/joystick.
Secondly, this is using fourth edition, not third in its game design. Not some promise to faithfully reproduce a version and bastardize it as did the end result of the DDO MMO you speak as "perfect" but an honest "inspired by fourth edition game" answer.
Inspired or not this means certain root fundamentals are followed. Like how at will encounter and Daily powers are used (except daily powers are more Limit Break than daily in this game due to the much more encountered events than tabletop would ever have and no pausing for next week's session.)
if you read my FAQ, you'd know this, second post one of the very veryy first questions.
So comparing spells when we all use powers is apples or oranges on two different editions.
Thirdly, assuming you take the time and learn about the 4E powers you get and can switch later as you progress in tabletop, you can swap out this MMO's powers extra powers you have when you rest at campfires. They DO appear to be unlocked at certain levels like most MMO games do, and can be enhanced with specialized trees as most MMO's do.
Finally, this isn't going to be a DDO clone I am sorry to say, so if you're looking for that, my apologies. They are not going to delay another year to do that. If it's a deal-breaker for any of you, I understand and wish you well over on DDO's freemium site.
Well sadly this is not clone of Neverwinter nights series. I am not saying that must be worst or better.
It shows in demo that there are for wizard:
4x daily powers
7x encounter powers
+ several more other powers
This seems to me a little low number to choose from, especialy if they are at different lvl range. It kinda looks like that we will have only 8 powers to choose at lvl 20. I hope I am wrong and I hope it will change to the release.
Well I am not going back to DDO and I have not issue to pay premium account. So I look forward to this. I only hope that free model is NOT the one of paying for reset feet system with 10 usd per each. That would be much worst then to pay premium account. There is nothing worst then to be stuck with one build or pay bucks for every test a new build. Like today I am going pvp = 10 bucks .. tommorow 10 bucks to switch for pve ... nightmare ... well your producer says this to Athene btw ..
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
Yeah having played the 4th ed now for...4 years almost, I can say it follows the system accurately except for the daily and utility powers so it's just a completely different non Vancian method you have to understand, not the spell memorization and learning everybody keeps asking. I have given up trying to explain the learning part here but have hope I can explain the advancement part then.
The tip on a loading screen in the vid posted above talks about dyes being used to change equipment colors. Yeehaw!
I saw a dye pack on a vid screen once, so it seems to be true. We can make our pretty hemp earth tones woodland outfits..I mean Ghillie suits, Ghillie suits! YEAH, RED MEAT AND ALCOHOL AND KILLING STUFF!
Comments
Uhm, this kinda falls into Rule 0 imho. Your DM can decide to allow (or deny) access to "personalized" magic. The spellbook, anyway, is fixed to 2 spells per level.
Yes, it's very different from the classical vancian system, but it worked really well, especially for game balance. I can tell you, for instance, that (to keep this kind of balance between casters and non-casters) in d&d next casters get 2 spell slots per day as a cap (the cap in 3.5 was 4 spells per day without bonus slots).
St. Augustinus
Since we're using a non Vancian or non-memorization method in 4e and spells are done differently in 4e it's not as simple an answer.
Every class uses powers. Fighters use Exploits for example, and wizards use spells. Both classes still use at will (always available to use every combat round) Encounter (can use once a combat encounter) and Daily (can use once before having to rest 6 hours) Powers. You get short rests between encounters about 5 minutes time, unlike the speed of combat where every round is still (about) six seconds in estimation if you will. Turns have been done away with as a measurement of 10 rounds is one turn, and most things are listed to happen at the beginning/ending of your/the target's turn or round of combat. Minutes are still used of course.
The powers are made for that class and to work with other classes and their roles. For instance a fighter is a defender, a cleric a leader (healer and buffer,) a rogue is a striker and a wizard is a (crowd) controller.
All classes start with two at will (except humans can choose an optional third at-will or a reroll once an encounter ability,) one encounter and one daily power. Your class can choose from a list of different At-will/Encounter/Daily powers to selct once, but you only know that number (two or one) until you rise high enough in level to learn a new Encounter/Daily power which you choose from a list of multiple ones and pick one.
If you find you don't like a power, once a new level, you can retrain a power for another one of that level (or lower if you truly wish.) Or you could choose to retrain a feat or skill instead. Not mandatory mind you, optional. Later, you can even swap low-level powers for higher level powers as you enter Paragon/Epic tiers to have your class be competitive with the enemies. Technically some specialty wizards introduced later in the Fourth Edition called Mages and a similar setup called a Sha'ir DO allow you to have multiple daily powers per level you get a daily power and each extended (6 hour) rest you can choose which daily power you "memorize" and can use. That's about the only "spell memorization" there is in 4e.
Another things wizards automatically get and other classes sometimes do or have to spend a feat to access is they get rituals.
Rituals are much more powerful than the current spells or other class powers currently are, but take longer to "cast" than the at-will, encounter, or daily would be able to do in combat. Often they use skills to "check" how well they perform/last. It's not just for wizards or priests anymore, but sometimes certain classes may be restricted to certain types (such as rangers may only cast nature rituals, etc.) So, for instance, magic missile is now an at will power that shoots a missile unerringly at a target every round if used, but magic mouth is a ritual that takes 10 minutes to cast and set up belonging to Exploration and uses Arcana.
So, the long story short to that question is:
While technically a DM could work with you to make wizard "spell research," what you'd be doing is likely swapping out a power for this newly found one, or acquiring a ritual that is not castable in combat times allowed.
<removed>. I think that making all classes balanced is HAMSTER. Some classes/builds are tougher than others thats the way it is and always has been in DnD. Just like in forgotten realm books I have read many. Not everyone is walking around like Drizzt Do'urden Some classes/builds you just do not want to mess with. I have been a dm since 1st edition and have played every edition after, tell 4th edition which seems more like a mmo tank/dps/healer/crowd control set up. If I wanted to play a system like that I would play wow. I have had no problem with 3.5 It seems to work even outside pnp such as in the NWN2 server Baldurs gate sword coast chronicals. Yes there is some exploits but so what? Lets take DnD and instead of leaving it three dimensional will make it two diminsional and make all classes the same power level <removed>! <removed>! DnD has never been about balance; its about playing a persona. Rather your class is more powerful then the guy next to you did not mean <removed> it was about playing the character you like. Yes everyone liked to be powerful but some were more powerful than others. You had many factors class level, magic items,wards,stealth,wealth, and so on. If you wanted to be a power build then so be it. If you wanted to be a stealthy but deadly rogue then so be it. If you wanted to play a cleric that was crazy but harnessed great power through his god then so be it. Or perhaps you were a fighter that had become a vampire which made you deadly so what. NO NO NO this is the modern day of everything must be balanced....................... I ask you why?
Simply because most players don't accept being less powerful that others without a reason. I guess that this says all. Being balanced is the #1 issue of every game (not only tabletop), and your theory that other editions are purposely unbalanced is not coherent with my experience.
St. Augustinus
Then do not play DnD. Ever since I have played DnD some class have been more powerful than others. But each class was unigue in its own way. Take bard for example. They are powerful when it comes to buffing a party but in a one on one encounter with an evil paladin the bard would be wise to run or, have some plan in place to take the paladin down maybe even a powerful magic item. Everyone at my table top played the class they want to play regardless of power level. In my experience 3.5 works just fine. None caster classes just got to find ways to deal with the fact they are not caster. UMD skill+potion or scrolls works just fine. Also I never said that 1st edition and up was purposely unbalanced but not everything was balance out so everyone was the same. What I love about 3.5 is that you can build so many different characters and yes some of them are more powerful. If thats what you want to play then learn how to build its fun. This balance thing is for the lazy that do not want to take the time to learn how to build there characters they just want the system to do it for them. If you are not worried about being the most powerful build out on the market then no worries. It comes down to choices thats what DnD is about not balance between every class. I mean there is so many ways to build in 3.5 you have pve builds and pvp builds Its just an awsome system that in my opinion is not broke. Why fix it? "Less powerful than others without a reason" Reason is learn how to build. I on the other hand need to learn how to do this forum stuff.
4th ed the PnP had all class roles balanced so you weren't ridiculously useless in the beginning/end of your career without some obscure specialization in some area. I can't say whether or not they kept this theme in the upcoming MMO. I'm sure some characters will be more or less powerful than others, but we will be the ones who decide balanced vs OP, and the company will decide from our feedback whether to change said abilities to make the MMO more balanced-the most dangerous thing to try and "adjust" in an MMO post launch.
So, just to try and get if out of my system now....
OP OP OP OP OP OP OP!
NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF!
Much better!
That is what i want to see so i can feel like a wizard. I don't care about 2,3,4e rules just make learning spells happen like in baldur's gate.
I'm not new about the concept of min maxing and optimization. I have followed character optimization process since 2nd edition, and, in 4e, i can safely say that I AM wizard class optimization. That said, i still don't agree with you: you think that every class and every build has the same optimization potential. This is wrong on many different levels. For instance, 3.5 a lvel 20 Paladin was complete and utter garbage compared to a melee class with high charisma who took 2 levels in paladin class.
I guess i can say we agree to disagree, to end the discussion. (And please... there is no "pvp" in D&D... it's just a horrible concept for "angry with life" teenagers)
St. Augustinus
This right here, this is the cancer that kills D&D
You can see wizards spell tree /book or what it is and it has very few spells at diferent level acces .. looks terrible to me .. is kinda like diablo 3 system with very few spells .. whole game concept looks too much similiar to diablo 3. They should focus on copy DDO (which is in my eyes nearly perfect) and not (medicore) D3.
From what i saw in demo presentation, game looks really dumped down to make it for conzole market (and I loved Neverwinter 2). Why only 9 spells to use ? There are hundreds of spells in DDO. Even generic MMOS like WOW has more spells to use. It looks like very action oriented but why is majority of spells on cd then ? I dont like it.
Also the combat walk looks awfull I hope its just pre alpha reason. And why character walk and run so slow ?
I give to a try but my expectation are on almost zero level.
I just checked my 20 lvl Sorc in DDO and she is using 32 spells. So again 9 spells even on cooldowns is pathetic for me. Its not DnD of any kind.
Due to your spelling on several words, I will summarize to make sure I read it properly and not got the wrong word meanings for a few other similar:
You think Diablo 3 is terrible and DDO is perfect for D&D MMOs. You think it's dumbed down (not stuff removed or dumpted down if you will) for the console market (edit: Duhh cooldown my mistake, see answer what at will encounter and daily mean, so no they are not.) And you say graphical MMO's are like WOW and have more spells. The "combat walk" looks auful. Finally you repeat the same thing mentioning 32 over 9 spells.
Firstly if you understand the action MMO on PC's not consoles, then you have your answer. This is not a tab and click combat game, this is an aim and fire combat game. This means not only do you need fewer skills ACTIVCE at any one time to manage running away from enemies and defending with powers and firing with powers, having more requires massive toolbars storing them which I HATED for "spellcasters" on the old click and forget especially ruining the screen space. Literally from the NWO demo I can say any more than 2 at wills 3 encounters two dailies and a utility I would have had difficulty finding where the powers were without a programmed game keyboard/gamepad/joystick.
Secondly, this is using fourth edition, not third in its game design. Not some promise to faithfully reproduce a version and bastardize it as did the end result of the DDO MMO you speak as "perfect" but an honest "inspired by fourth edition game" answer.
Inspired or not this means certain root fundamentals are followed. Like how at will encounter and Daily powers are used (except daily powers are more Limit Break than daily in this game due to the much more encountered events than tabletop would ever have and no pausing for next week's session.)
if you read my FAQ, you'd know this, second post one of the very veryy first questions.
So comparing spells when we all use powers is apples or oranges on two different editions.
Thirdly, assuming you take the time and learn about the 4E powers you get and can switch later as you progress in tabletop, you can swap out this MMO's powers extra powers you have when you rest at campfires. They DO appear to be unlocked at certain levels like most MMO games do, and can be enhanced with specialized trees as most MMO's do.
Finally, this isn't going to be a DDO clone I am sorry to say, so if you're looking for that, my apologies. They are not going to delay another year to do that. If it's a deal-breaker for any of you, I understand and wish you well over on DDO's freemium site.
It shows in demo that there are for wizard:
4x daily powers
7x encounter powers
+ several more other powers
This seems to me a little low number to choose from, especialy if they are at different lvl range. It kinda looks like that we will have only 8 powers to choose at lvl 20. I hope I am wrong and I hope it will change to the release.
Well I am not going back to DDO and I have not issue to pay premium account. So I look forward to this. I only hope that free model is NOT the one of paying for reset feet system with 10 usd per each. That would be much worst then to pay premium account. There is nothing worst then to be stuck with one build or pay bucks for every test a new build. Like today I am going pvp = 10 bucks .. tommorow 10 bucks to switch for pve ... nightmare ... well your producer says this to Athene btw ..
I saw a dye pack on a vid screen once, so it seems to be true. We can make our pretty hemp earth tones woodland outfits..I mean Ghillie suits, Ghillie suits! YEAH, RED MEAT AND ALCOHOL AND KILLING STUFF!