In NWN devs had to plan each dungeon specifically for a level audience and that is completely thrown out the window. Now all devs only have to consider what level audience will be interested in their content and set appropriate boundaries.
NWN1/2 had encounters. That's not new to Neverwinter Online. You could also manually place if you wanted to.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
NWN1/2 had encounters. That's not new to Neverwinter Online. You could also manually place if you wanted to.
You could put any number of encounters you wanted but if you put down <blank> encounter with a level 5-8 difficulty range it was indefinitely level 5-8.
NWO will take any monster and automatically scale the mobs to an appropriate difficulty rating. A cave full of orcs can be run through with level one or level 60 characters and they wouldn't, in theory, be able to tell the difference.
That is my point about scaling. It's not about NWN Encounter or simply "placed" mobs. Each creature is level-less and ability-less until they are assigned a difficulty based on each player/party's level. That feature was not in NWN and if it is in NWN2 then it must have been implemented after launch.
You could put any number of encounters you wanted but if you put down <blank> encounter with a level 5-8 difficulty range it was indefinitely level 5-8.
NWO will take any monster and automatically scale the mobs to an appropriate difficulty rating. A cave full of orcs can be run through with level one or level 60 characters and they wouldn't, in theory, be able to tell the difference.
That is my point about scaling. It's not about NWN Encounter or simply "placed" mobs. Each creature is level-less and ability-less until they are assigned a difficulty based on each player/party's level. That feature was not in NWN and if it is in NWN2 then it must have been implemented after launch.
This would be why I said that it would be impossible to create a module in NWO that required a group to complete, since the game would auto-magically shape the encounters to the player. This in my opinion is not great for the designer, since the story often is reflected in the difficulty of the encounters.
Hard to tell a story about a lich when the player can tromp through as a lvl 1 character. Also, that mod author would get down voted by the community because that put "silly" content up or content that would be rated as out of place. I can see the comment section now: "Who puts a lich in a lvl one adventure! I vote 1 out of 5 stars!"
Mokah - The Grumpy Strumpet
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited October 2012
In PnP, I've thrown dragons, liches, beholders and other powerful things at characters that are less than suggested levels. Now that doesn't mean that they were meant to or were able to kill the beasts. There are many ways to defeat an encounter that doesn't involve killing. Let's just hope, as it is my hope, that there will be ways to convey and do similar in NWO.
In PnP, I've thrown dragons, liches, beholders and other powerful things at characters that are less than suggested levels. Now that doesn't mean that they were meant to or were able to kill the beasts. There are many ways to defeat an encounter that doesn't involve killing. Let's just hope, as it is my hope, that there will be ways to convey and do similar in NWO.
For example. 5 level 3 characters enter a dungeon to find out that it is guarded by a sleeping Dragon. Their exit has been magically sealed via a contingency spell, clues point that the only way to open the exit is to obtain a magical item resting under the dragon's paw. I'm quite sure many of you can theorize some possible outcomes for ways 5 level 3 characters could "defeat" this encounter without having to personally kill the dragon in an engaged encounter.
In PnP, I've thrown dragons, liches, beholders and other powerful things at characters that are less than suggested levels. Now that doesn't mean that they were meant to or were able to kill the beasts. There are many ways to defeat an encounter that doesn't involve killing. Let's just hope, as it is my hope, that there will be ways to convey and do similar in NWO.
Yes, I'm quite aware of that and I asked that very question in the Foundry thread. Never got a good answer however. That is one of the strengths of the NWN/NWN2 modding system, that having access to the scripting systems, we can recreate encounters like you describe.
Using NWO as an example, how would you accomplish such a scenario so that the player felt satisfied at the end of the module?
It's my understanding that you can't award non-combat experience and the end "reward" can't be edited and is calculated by the modules encounter levels. Are such non-combat methods of completing a module being considered? I have asked this in the past and never got an answer. Maybe you know more.
Mokah - The Grumpy Strumpet
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
You could put any number of encounters you wanted but if you put down <blank> encounter with a level 5-8 difficulty range it was indefinitely level 5-8.
That's not how it works, at least in nwn2. You don't put level ranges. You put in possible creatures with min/max number than can spawn in the encounter, and the encounter trigger handles it.
For example. 5 level 3 characters enter a dungeon to find out that it is guarded by a sleeping Dragon. Their exit has been magically sealed via a contingency spell, clues point that the only way to open the exit is to obtain a magical item resting under the dragon's paw. I'm quite sure many of you can theorize some possible outcomes for ways 5 level 3 characters could "defeat" this encounter without having to personally kill the dragon in an engaged encounter.
There are ways around it. You may not be able to it exactly but I believe you can do something similar to it in foundry. For example, make a secret doorway using skill checks which bypasses the area where dragon is resting. But we have to see it for ourselves to do it.
There is always a way.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Yes, I'm quite aware of that and I asked that very question in the Foundry thread. Never got a good answer however. That is one of the strengths of the NWN/NWN2 modding system, that having access to the scripting systems, we can recreate encounters like you describe.
Using NWO as an example, how would you accomplish such a scenario so that the player felt satisfied at the end of the module?
It's my understanding that you can't award non-combat experience and the end "reward" can't be edited and is calculated by the modules encounter levels. Are such non-combat methods of completing a module being considered? I have asked this in the past and never got an answer. Maybe you know more.
I highly suggest that you browse through the Dev Tracker. Also, you may wish to do some specific searches for replies by crypticmapolis.
That is disappointing, but at least it's not a "no"
Another question:
Will we be able to design quest that award non-combat rewards, such as talking your way out of a fight or solving a puzzle or answering a riddle? All these are hallmarks of DnD and would be very welcomed as question options.
Combat isn't everything.
You can create entire campaigns without combat if you like. You won't get the usual rewards from drops, but you still get a loot chest at the end regardless.
Unfortunately, as CBT has not yet started, information is minimal at this point but should be starting to ramp up soon. I suggest to relax a bit, keep adding thoughts, opinions and wishes and then when public betas begin, we can really discuss things! ;-)
There are ways around it. You may not be able to it exactly but I believe you can do something similar to it in foundry. For example, make a secret doorway using skill checks which bypasses the area where dragon is resting. But we have to see it for ourselves to do it.
There is always a way.
Are skill checks in? Do you get rewarded for successful skill checks if they are in?
Are skill checks in? Do you get rewarded for successful skill checks if they are in?
We must cultivate patience. Afterall, how much did we knew how much could we mod about last game we modded? For me it was zilch. For this game, we know quite a lot compared to that.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
From what I understood of the video, the missions do NOT scale to player level - the level of the encounter would be set by the player creating the mission.
Yes, you could make a level 1 melee dragon encounter. Would people like it? No. Would you get good ratings and be recognized as a good author or DM? Absolutely not.
Can you use the Foundry to make a level 1 dragon encounter, designed to swindle level 16 players into using their resources right before the level 20 evil wizard bursts into the room sending spells flying? Yes.
The option to create terrible content and great content is provided by the same tools. It's up to the players to RATE the content. Terrible authors who provide silly content that misuses the tools provided to them by the Foundry will, hopefully, be met with low ratings and community backlash. The system also provides incentives to make GOOD content that players love, and a donation system to reward awesome DMs!
Just something very important to note is that while encounters will scale to level you can (and should) put level boundaries on missions.
Obviously a dragon is a general NOOOOOO for a level one character. Good designers will put appropriate level requirements on dungeons/quests which include dragons.
Alternately you can also put caps so that max level characters won't go into a dungeon which has only a handful of goblins.
The scaling feature is something which is there to make sure that:
1-Players don't break content by making it either too easy or hard
2-To make content available for as many or as few players as they want.
While some of you are seeing this as a limitation I see this as a great way to solve the biggest issues with NWN's balancing.
Content will be able to be timeless. In NWN devs had to plan each dungeon specifically for a level audience and that is completely thrown out the window. Now all devs only have to consider what level audience will be interested in their content and set appropriate boundaries.
Of course if you want a hard dungeon you can throw more monsters in it and use the adjustable scale.
I understand the fears that players will make stupidly easy dungeons and put dragons in level one content...
But just how many trolls could possibly make that type of content?
Simply put, Wizards of the Coast signed off on the freedom to tell your story. There are possible uses to putting high level content for low level players to face but this relies on the maturity of the developer.
Honestly it's nothing a PnP DM can't do.
First of all, you do not set the monster's levels. You set the difficulty of the monster group. The level itself will be based on the player(s) doing the quest. In the exterior map editor screenshot you can see that the Drow group selected is called Drow - Melee - Hard Difficulty 2. There will be a Drow - Melee - Easy Difficulty and (I'm guessing the name) a Drow - Melee - Normal Difficulty
This means all players would have an equal experience when playing a mission regardless of level (gear is another story).
So your example of a goblin roflstomp wouldn't be possible. The goblins would end up scaling to the maxed level player and provide a similar experience.
Also in STO there's no level cap, just a minimum requirement. The minimum requirement stuff I covered a few posts ago.
This is all based on my experience in STO and not Neverwinter but we can expect the systems to be similar.
Let me see as to what has and has not been publicly addressed.
The system is meant to be scaled, not set level. As stated, easy, medium and hard difficulties for monster groups. Are there some that may only have some of these difficulties? Likely. But even if "easy", the power of say a "dragon" will be daunting for a solo player no matter how it may scale. I can think I've plotted a concept solo fighting with a "scaled enemy" that looked like it really could use a group, so it should be able to be done. Time will tell.
All this written, the open world content does NOT scale and is "set." Foundry open world quests are not available yet and are wishlisted.
For example. 5 level 3 characters enter a dungeon to find out that it is guarded by a sleeping Dragon. Their exit has been magically sealed via a contingency spell, clues point that the only way to open the exit is to obtain a magical item resting under the dragon's paw. I'm quite sure many of you can theorize some possible outcomes for ways 5 level 3 characters could "defeat" this encounter without having to personally kill the dragon in an engaged encounter.
The problem is that in nwo a level 1 solo player can go into your dungeon and everything scales down so he can just kill that level 1 sleeping dragon and move on.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The problem is that in nwo a level 1 solo player can go into your dungeon and everything scales down so he can just kill that level 1 sleeping dragon and move on.
*Again dances with the proprietary monster*
There are certain setups even if "level 1" it will not scale down that much to be easy enough for a solo person to tackle and groups would need to most likely be used even with solo twitch players.
The problem is that in nwo a level 1 solo player can go into your dungeon and everything scales down so he can just kill that level 1 sleeping dragon and move on.
Not if I had the ability to make that dragon invulnerable or just a regular NPC. ;-)
We really should wait until the Public Foundry Tests until we make such speculations however.
The problem is that in nwo a level 1 solo player can go into your dungeon and everything scales down so he can just kill that level 1 sleeping dragon and move on.
In STO the NPC groups you pick set the minimum level requirement of your mission. Example is picking a Borg NPC group makes the mission 41+.
If Neverwinter has the same system then picking a Dragon would set a level requirement of... 21+ (random number)
Or as Zebular says you could make him an NPC and have a non-combat way of passing the dragon
Great thread. Seeing as the Foundry is my main concern for NWO, I'm going to make this thread my first post. I've been skulking in the shadows of this site since it was announced and now have chosen to reveal my deformed face.
The amount of my time I spent getting fatter, sitting in front of my screen and messing around with NWN1 tool set was probably equal to the amount of time it's taking to release this game. I never published anything on the vault because my work wasn't actually very good. Not being a scripter limited me to stealing other peoples ideas and pick and choosing what I liked. But I didn't care because I had more fun making it than playing it.
NWO seems like it's really (for lack of a better word) "dumbing" down the tool set for thick heads like me. This makes me happy and fearful all at once. Just by watching a few foundry videos, I think I have a good grasp of the basics and am excited to jump in with my one remaining foot. But how badly is this "dumbing down" going to hurt and limit content?
This is what I understand:
1: You can make complex conversation strings that can include skill checks. No one knows if a successful check will give a reward. I can see a lot of people making conversation puzzles with this but that could get old fast.
2: You can only customize the appearance and name of your npc/creatures. I THINK you can give them a basic patting route from point A to point B. However you can't touch their stats or abilities. Which makes perfect sence to me.
3: You can make objects you can interact with. But what are the limits to this? Is it going to be limited to just pulling levers to open doors? Does that lever need to be near the door or anywhere in your dungeon?
4: You can not set rewards for your quest but it allows you to place chests? What determines the chests contents?
Other than those 4 things, I'm pretty much in the dark with everything else. So Im going to tell you what I need to create valuable content.
1: You should be able to string your quests together. Having the second part of your quest being available only after you've been flagged for completing the first.
2: You should be able to strike up a conversation with main baddies before you cut their heads off.
3: Lighting...I need mood lighting.
4: I noticed in some of the boss battles that they would use special abilities after a while. IE: the dude that turns into a werewolf after receiving a certain amount of dmg.
I can see something like this being abused but you want your boss at the end of your quest (if you have one) to stand out from all the others you just killed other than a different set of armor and name.
5: Triggers that teleport you to another trigger. And objects that you can interact with affecting more than one thing in your quest. IE: A lever in room B opens a door in room C while triggering a trap in room D.
Well if I can think of more things I want I will post more later. As for now it's almost 2am and I'm beginning to drool on myself. Please people keep posting anything you know on the Foundry.
Great thread. Seeing as the Foundry is my main concern for NWO, I'm going to make this thread my first post. I've been skulking in the shadows of this site since it was announced and now have chosen to reveal my deformed face.
Hey garbaduke, welcome to the forums I'll try to answer/comment on your points, hope it helps.
1: You can make complex conversation strings that can include skill checks. No one knows if a successful check will give a reward. I can see a lot of people making conversation puzzles with this but that could get old fast.
I don't think anyone's confirmed that skill checks are in the game but it's on the developer wishlist. Personally I don't there will be a reward for skill check but who knows.
The conversation puzzles are put to great use in Star Trek Online, which I expect to happen here. In fact I expect even better puzzles by NW authors once you guys start getting used to it.
2: You can only customize the appearance and name of your npc/creatures. I THINK you can give them a basic patting route from point A to point B. However you can't touch their stats or abilities. Which makes perfect sence to me.
Correct on all fronts. You choose an NPC group type and difficulty (Drow - Melee - Hard) and you can edit each individual actor's costume. Patrolling is about to hit Star Trek Online so we can know how it works when that happens.
3: You can make objects you can interact with. But what are the limits to this? Is it going to be limited to just pulling levers to open doors? Does that lever need to be near the door or anywhere in your dungeon?
Any object you place can be interacted with. Also on social maps there will be pre-set objects to interact with (you won't be able to put your own in social maps). There's no distance limit either.
Interacting with objects (at least in Star Trek) are used to
Advance the story
Make things (objects/npcs) appear/disappear
Start a dialogue pop up
4: You can not set rewards for your quest but it allows you to place chests? What determines the chests contents?
The game will generate the reward based on mission length
Other than those 4 things, I'm pretty much in the dark with everything else. So Im going to tell you what I need to create valuable content.
1: You should be able to string your quests together. Having the second part of your quest being available only after you've been flagged for completing the first.
Multi-part campaigns are known to be in...don't know if you have to play them in order
2: You should be able to strike up a conversation with main baddies before you cut their heads off.
Definitely possible in Star Trek so should be possible in Neverwinter. However the way it works might not be how you expect.
(Disclaimer this is from my experience in STO)
You can't walk up to an enemy who will both be friendly and have a dialogue icon above their head, who will turn into an enemy once the dialogue is done. You'll need to work around it.
One example is having a reach marker slightly in front the enemy's agro range that activates a dialogue so that when you hit the marker the dialogue pops up.
You'll find out that while the Foundry won't have all the features you want, being a bit creative both with your story, and with the foundry tools allows you to do quite a lot.
3: Lighting...I need mood lighting.
Lighting...sucks in the STO Foundry due to lack of objects that provide light. Hopefully it's improved in Neverwinter, that's all I have to say about this
4: I noticed in some of the boss battles that they would use special abilities after a while. IE: the dude that turns into a werewolf after receiving a certain amount of dmg.
I can see something like this being abused but you want your boss at the end of your quest (if you have one) to stand out from all the others you just killed other than a different set of armor and name.
What do you mean by abused? You can place npc groups wherever you want, technically you could make all of them bosses. Don't know how players would like that though lol
5: Triggers that teleport you to another trigger. And objects that you can interact with affecting more than one thing in your quest. IE: A lever in room B opens a door in room C while triggering a trap in room D.
Personally I don't know anything about teleporting, but I can tell you that your multi-function lever is definitely possible.
In STO the NPC groups you pick set the minimum level requirement of your mission. Example is picking a Borg NPC group makes the mission 41+.
If Neverwinter has the same system then picking a Dragon would set a level requirement of... 21+ (random number)
This is how I expect things to be in NWO as well. If I want to make content with Romulans, it was automatically X level (I think 30+). So if I made a mission with Romulans players lower than that X level couldn't do the content. There are good and bad aspects of this, for instance I think Klingons should be killing Romulans at the start b:laugh But in terms of NWO, I'd hate to see things mobs like Orcs and such become too limited. We'll have to see how flexible the system is.
This is how I expect things to be in NWO as well. If I want to make content with Romulans, it was automatically X level (I think 30+). .
...
I thought I heard an interview of devs that there is no min level on foundry missions as yet and all the missions scale (i.e. all missions are from lvl 1 to 60). That is why if you put an encounter as elite undead, it would appear as a necromancer in lvl 1 but probably bone dragon at lvl 60. [unless you use mirage thingy ... the costume]
I thought I heard an interview of devs that there is no min level on foundry missions as yet and all the missions scale (i.e. all missions are from lvl 1 to 60). That is why if you put an encounter as elite undead, it would appear as a necromancer in lvl 1 but probably bone dragon at lvl 60. [unless you use mirage thingy ... the costume]
That may be, I certainly haven't followed all of the interviews, so things may have changed. In STO's version I got around the Romulans being too high a level (in my opinion) by taking Federation (which were the lowest level for NPC's against Klingons) and costumed them as Romulans. The only problem here was that they used phasers and not disrupters, but it worked.
That may be, I certainly haven't followed all of the interviews, so things may have changed. In STO's version I got around the Romulans being too high a level (in my opinion) by taking Federation (which were the lowest level for NPC's against Klingons) and costumed them as Romulans. The only problem here was that they used phasers and not disrupters, but it worked.
Yes, I thought that was discussed as one of the changes of NW foundry compared to STO foundry. But I wonder if there would be some limitations on missions also. Certainly open areas should have mobs of different level and there would be places where low players can't go (as it is open world after all). So may be they will change the foundry later to have at least some lowest level depending on highest open area/areas included in it (as they said that npc and barrels etc. from open world can be used for foundry missions.)
But if the missions are only instanced and not involve open areas, then we should have all levels able to play them.
Yes, I thought that was discussed as one of the changes of NW foundry compared to STO foundry. But I wonder if there would be some limitations on missions also. Certainly open areas should have mobs of different level and there would be places where low players can't go (as it is open world after all). So may be they will change the foundry later to have at least some lowest level depending on highest open area/areas included in it (as they said that npc and barrels etc. from open world can be used for foundry missions.)
But if the missions are only instanced and not involve open areas, then we should have all levels able to play them.
I think at least at launch all of the foundry missions will be instanced. that'll be an interesting change if they do make all mobs fully scalable. Though I could see them having a few mobs that don't scale or like you suggested above, show as a different costume completely when they scale too low.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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marenorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2012
From watching the foundry videos, I am sure that I saw quest items being discussed. I believe the example used was a statue. It was an item placed in the environment of the quest, not a reward from a chest. Since the hooks for quests can be set up through NPC's which would involve dialogue, the item found in one quest could be required within the conversation with the following NPC hook for the next quest. I am unsure as to whether the second NPC would be able to verify the players had acquired the item, but you should be able to at least ask the question. Which would provide at least the indication that players should complete a previous quest.
I am trying to figure out the incentive for players to skip quests that are meant to be linked. The loot is system determined so possibly, the final boss might be worth skipping to for loot. Not for me, but I could infer that occurring. I guess the quality of the narrative will determine whether series are played sequentially or not.
I just remembered that some of the persistent maps may change, which may make minimum levels possible. I believe one of the demos was in a persistent area, where the guards were freed from the orc tribe and after completion the environment changed to patrolling city guards. Assuming I am correct that this was a persistent area and that certain NPC's were only available after the change, this would allow at least a modicum of minimum levels for adventures. Although this seems technically somewhat difficult to maintain it may be a flag which determines which shard players are in for the area.
And this is all assumptions I have made from watching the videos and reading the forums.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2012
I'll try to be brief.
Based on the feedback from the Devs and from interviews, we have:
XP is decided on the overall difficulty of the enemies you defeat and time you spend questing actively. (No idle XP if you will.) While you are guaranteed a reward scaled to said difficulty in a chest at the end of the adventure, there is always a small chance of getting magic items from defeated enemies dropping it (as well as the normal money and healing stuff.)This last part has been observed in multiple videos.
Foundry Instance enemies scale but stay the same enemy. So a Hard drow melee will be a drow from l1 to 60 and melee, but always be harder than typical drow melees of said scaled level. If you want to costume him or her as a dragon, you can, but the attacks and damage are still going to be based as a scaled hard drow melee. Just for comparison, Developer open world enemies are fixed level and could be "mixed" as per another poster's info, but we can't open-world Foundry.
Individual encounters only give XP for combat defeating. No puzzle or skill checks. While you could make a puzzle no combat mod, you get only xp for the time you spend in it and one chest at the end for completing the mod. Enemies are not currently Foundry "optional" if placed and must all be completed for the quest to update, so it's moot if asking about skipping for loot.
One module cannot affect the outcome of another mod, but you can have quest items "unlock" NPC responses to continue a quest-line in one mod itself. So "Campaign" Mods or a group of related quest mods could be played in any order technically speaking, and it's up to the player to do so in the "correct" order.
Currently all Foundry modules are solo/group co-op instanced but there is a wish-list to make open area and/or PvP Foundry missions. I'm pretty sure devs have shown us quests that happen in the open worlds instead of an instanced world, but if they did, they didn't clarify it was an open world. Then again, we can have instances outside so I could be mistaken.
Currently Foundry Mods are claimed to be all levels but it's not clear (like STO) if there are minimum/maximum "actual" levels that "work" based on the architecture.
Think that covers the main issues brought up. We'll know more once we start beta testing this of course.
Nothing there about propriety monsters such as dragons and such? Truth...
Yes, it was flat out stated that there will be dragons. If I have the time later, or if someone else can dig it up, I'll find the quote and reference. Additionally, some of the Trailers show a dragon under he control of Valindra, who is a lich. See the dragon head avatar everyone has at the moment? That is the dragon I am speaking about which is featured in a trailer with Valindra.
Comments
You could put any number of encounters you wanted but if you put down <blank> encounter with a level 5-8 difficulty range it was indefinitely level 5-8.
NWO will take any monster and automatically scale the mobs to an appropriate difficulty rating. A cave full of orcs can be run through with level one or level 60 characters and they wouldn't, in theory, be able to tell the difference.
That is my point about scaling. It's not about NWN Encounter or simply "placed" mobs. Each creature is level-less and ability-less until they are assigned a difficulty based on each player/party's level. That feature was not in NWN and if it is in NWN2 then it must have been implemented after launch.
This would be why I said that it would be impossible to create a module in NWO that required a group to complete, since the game would auto-magically shape the encounters to the player. This in my opinion is not great for the designer, since the story often is reflected in the difficulty of the encounters.
Hard to tell a story about a lich when the player can tromp through as a lvl 1 character. Also, that mod author would get down voted by the community because that put "silly" content up or content that would be rated as out of place. I can see the comment section now: "Who puts a lich in a lvl one adventure! I vote 1 out of 5 stars!"
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For example. 5 level 3 characters enter a dungeon to find out that it is guarded by a sleeping Dragon. Their exit has been magically sealed via a contingency spell, clues point that the only way to open the exit is to obtain a magical item resting under the dragon's paw. I'm quite sure many of you can theorize some possible outcomes for ways 5 level 3 characters could "defeat" this encounter without having to personally kill the dragon in an engaged encounter.
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Yes, I'm quite aware of that and I asked that very question in the Foundry thread. Never got a good answer however. That is one of the strengths of the NWN/NWN2 modding system, that having access to the scripting systems, we can recreate encounters like you describe.
Using NWO as an example, how would you accomplish such a scenario so that the player felt satisfied at the end of the module?
It's my understanding that you can't award non-combat experience and the end "reward" can't be edited and is calculated by the modules encounter levels. Are such non-combat methods of completing a module being considered? I have asked this in the past and never got an answer. Maybe you know more.
There are ways around it. You may not be able to it exactly but I believe you can do something similar to it in foundry. For example, make a secret doorway using skill checks which bypasses the area where dragon is resting. But we have to see it for ourselves to do it.
There is always a way.
I highly suggest that you browse through the Dev Tracker. Also, you may wish to do some specific searches for replies by crypticmapolis.
Check this one out, for example, which you must have forgotten about as it was a direct reply to your post there, which you even responded to: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=188171&postcount=45
Unfortunately, as CBT has not yet started, information is minimal at this point but should be starting to ramp up soon. I suggest to relax a bit, keep adding thoughts, opinions and wishes and then when public betas begin, we can really discuss things! ;-)
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Are skill checks in? Do you get rewarded for successful skill checks if they are in?
We must cultivate patience. Afterall, how much did we knew how much could we mod about last game we modded? For me it was zilch. For this game, we know quite a lot compared to that.
Let me see as to what has and has not been publicly addressed.
The system is meant to be scaled, not set level. As stated, easy, medium and hard difficulties for monster groups. Are there some that may only have some of these difficulties? Likely. But even if "easy", the power of say a "dragon" will be daunting for a solo player no matter how it may scale. I can think I've plotted a concept solo fighting with a "scaled enemy" that looked like it really could use a group, so it should be able to be done. Time will tell.
All this written, the open world content does NOT scale and is "set." Foundry open world quests are not available yet and are wishlisted.
The problem is that in nwo a level 1 solo player can go into your dungeon and everything scales down so he can just kill that level 1 sleeping dragon and move on.
*Again dances with the proprietary monster*
There are certain setups even if "level 1" it will not scale down that much to be easy enough for a solo person to tackle and groups would need to most likely be used even with solo twitch players.
Not if I had the ability to make that dragon invulnerable or just a regular NPC. ;-)
We really should wait until the Public Foundry Tests until we make such speculations however.
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What about a Frost Giant or a Lich will they be proprietary monsters as well?
In STO the NPC groups you pick set the minimum level requirement of your mission. Example is picking a Borg NPC group makes the mission 41+.
If Neverwinter has the same system then picking a Dragon would set a level requirement of... 21+ (random number)
Or as Zebular says you could make him an NPC and have a non-combat way of passing the dragon
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - [WIP] Commander Rihan
The amount of my time I spent getting fatter, sitting in front of my screen and messing around with NWN1 tool set was probably equal to the amount of time it's taking to release this game. I never published anything on the vault because my work wasn't actually very good. Not being a scripter limited me to stealing other peoples ideas and pick and choosing what I liked. But I didn't care because I had more fun making it than playing it.
NWO seems like it's really (for lack of a better word) "dumbing" down the tool set for thick heads like me. This makes me happy and fearful all at once. Just by watching a few foundry videos, I think I have a good grasp of the basics and am excited to jump in with my one remaining foot. But how badly is this "dumbing down" going to hurt and limit content?
This is what I understand:
1: You can make complex conversation strings that can include skill checks. No one knows if a successful check will give a reward. I can see a lot of people making conversation puzzles with this but that could get old fast.
2: You can only customize the appearance and name of your npc/creatures. I THINK you can give them a basic patting route from point A to point B. However you can't touch their stats or abilities. Which makes perfect sence to me.
3: You can make objects you can interact with. But what are the limits to this? Is it going to be limited to just pulling levers to open doors? Does that lever need to be near the door or anywhere in your dungeon?
4: You can not set rewards for your quest but it allows you to place chests? What determines the chests contents?
Other than those 4 things, I'm pretty much in the dark with everything else. So Im going to tell you what I need to create valuable content.
1: You should be able to string your quests together. Having the second part of your quest being available only after you've been flagged for completing the first.
2: You should be able to strike up a conversation with main baddies before you cut their heads off.
3: Lighting...I need mood lighting.
4: I noticed in some of the boss battles that they would use special abilities after a while. IE: the dude that turns into a werewolf after receiving a certain amount of dmg.
I can see something like this being abused but you want your boss at the end of your quest (if you have one) to stand out from all the others you just killed other than a different set of armor and name.
5: Triggers that teleport you to another trigger. And objects that you can interact with affecting more than one thing in your quest. IE: A lever in room B opens a door in room C while triggering a trap in room D.
Well if I can think of more things I want I will post more later. As for now it's almost 2am and I'm beginning to drool on myself. Please people keep posting anything you know on the Foundry.
Hey garbaduke, welcome to the forums
I don't think anyone's confirmed that skill checks are in the game but it's on the developer wishlist. Personally I don't there will be a reward for skill check but who knows.
The conversation puzzles are put to great use in Star Trek Online, which I expect to happen here. In fact I expect even better puzzles by NW authors once you guys start getting used to it.
Correct on all fronts. You choose an NPC group type and difficulty (Drow - Melee - Hard) and you can edit each individual actor's costume. Patrolling is about to hit Star Trek Online so we can know how it works when that happens.
Any object you place can be interacted with. Also on social maps there will be pre-set objects to interact with (you won't be able to put your own in social maps). There's no distance limit either.
Interacting with objects (at least in Star Trek) are used to
The game will generate the reward based on mission length
Multi-part campaigns are known to be in...don't know if you have to play them in order
Definitely possible in Star Trek so should be possible in Neverwinter. However the way it works might not be how you expect.
(Disclaimer this is from my experience in STO)
You can't walk up to an enemy who will both be friendly and have a dialogue icon above their head, who will turn into an enemy once the dialogue is done. You'll need to work around it.
One example is having a reach marker slightly in front the enemy's agro range that activates a dialogue so that when you hit the marker the dialogue pops up.
You'll find out that while the Foundry won't have all the features you want, being a bit creative both with your story, and with the foundry tools allows you to do quite a lot.
Lighting...sucks in the STO Foundry due to lack of objects that provide light. Hopefully it's improved in Neverwinter, that's all I have to say about this
What do you mean by abused? You can place npc groups wherever you want, technically you could make all of them bosses. Don't know how players would like that though lol
Personally I don't know anything about teleporting, but I can tell you that your multi-function lever is definitely possible.
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - [WIP] Commander Rihan
This is how I expect things to be in NWO as well. If I want to make content with Romulans, it was automatically X level (I think 30+). So if I made a mission with Romulans players lower than that X level couldn't do the content. There are good and bad aspects of this, for instance I think Klingons should be killing Romulans at the start b:laugh But in terms of NWO, I'd hate to see things mobs like Orcs and such become too limited. We'll have to see how flexible the system is.
That may be, I certainly haven't followed all of the interviews, so things may have changed. In STO's version I got around the Romulans being too high a level (in my opinion) by taking Federation (which were the lowest level for NPC's against Klingons) and costumed them as Romulans. The only problem here was that they used phasers and not disrupters, but it worked.
But if the missions are only instanced and not involve open areas, then we should have all levels able to play them.
I think at least at launch all of the foundry missions will be instanced. that'll be an interesting change if they do make all mobs fully scalable. Though I could see them having a few mobs that don't scale or like you suggested above, show as a different costume completely when they scale too low.
I am trying to figure out the incentive for players to skip quests that are meant to be linked. The loot is system determined so possibly, the final boss might be worth skipping to for loot. Not for me, but I could infer that occurring. I guess the quality of the narrative will determine whether series are played sequentially or not.
I just remembered that some of the persistent maps may change, which may make minimum levels possible. I believe one of the demos was in a persistent area, where the guards were freed from the orc tribe and after completion the environment changed to patrolling city guards. Assuming I am correct that this was a persistent area and that certain NPC's were only available after the change, this would allow at least a modicum of minimum levels for adventures. Although this seems technically somewhat difficult to maintain it may be a flag which determines which shard players are in for the area.
And this is all assumptions I have made from watching the videos and reading the forums.
Based on the feedback from the Devs and from interviews, we have:
Think that covers the main issues brought up. We'll know more once we start beta testing this of course.
Yes, it was flat out stated that there will be dragons. If I have the time later, or if someone else can dig it up, I'll find the quote and reference. Additionally, some of the Trailers show a dragon under he control of Valindra, who is a lich. See the dragon head avatar everyone has at the moment? That is the dragon I am speaking about which is featured in a trailer with Valindra.
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No you most definitely stole the dragon from her and put it into the signature you made for me.
First and Second Gameplay Trailers with a blue dragon in it.
I would think that one in the second trailer is Lorragauth the Chained Wyrm, but I could be wrong.