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Active combat system - A revolutionary concept for clerics
gillrmn
Member Posts: 7,800 Arc User
The new No-tab targetting system may end up changing the perception of clerics. RaiderZ has this for clerics with only AoE heals. I already heard many players in game saying how they see clerics in new light.
Basically, you don't have F1,F2 keys to select members. You press spell for AoE heal and then use arrow keys (or WSAD) to drag the healing circle along the floor and set it up somewhere within line of sight. It makes healing difficult and not boring.
This makes clerics much difficult than other classes as mages or melee, and arguably more interesting also.
So I can't wait to see a demo of how NW has handled the cleric. I hope it is better and not just boring button F1, button 1 Button F2 button 1 fest.
Basically, you don't have F1,F2 keys to select members. You press spell for AoE heal and then use arrow keys (or WSAD) to drag the healing circle along the floor and set it up somewhere within line of sight. It makes healing difficult and not boring.
This makes clerics much difficult than other classes as mages or melee, and arguably more interesting also.
So I can't wait to see a demo of how NW has handled the cleric. I hope it is better and not just boring button F1, button 1 Button F2 button 1 fest.
Post edited by gillrmn on
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To me the concept of the cleric standing behind the party like a wizard only casting healing spells kind of died with 3.0. In NWN clerics were a force to be reckoned with complete with decent support qualities and a myriad of powerful spells that wizards could envy.
I hope they don't reduce clerics to back their literal 'oh my god' verison of classic D&D. I think the fears of clerics being boring could be easily solved by making them a viable productive class of the group for something more than healing. Of course healing should be a great focus of clerics but add in a bit of divine might and justice and the redundancies are broken just as readily.
That's my view at least. Clerics should be the 'We got this!' inspiration on the team rather than the scared to enter combat class that seems (to me) so prominent in early D&D.
Scenario:
Big boss hits all players with a devastating move.
Cleric calls the teams to group up for max heals.
Everyone but Little Timmy makes it to the area for heals.
Little Timmy gets hit by yet another devastating move and perishes.
From now on Little Timmy is instead called Little Timmy the Late.
I could see this working out well (and not so well!). Also, perhaps the Cleric will take on more of a group leader or coordinator roll instead of the Guardian Fighter?
And yes, I play a Cleric there
Yes, you can. Still, with everyone jumping and rolling around the place, whether you're gonna hit anything with that heal or not is quite often up to chance... (and yeah, I play a cleric there too)
Which is why I tend to use Healing Circle more than Heal, because at least that one the party members can see, and if they choose to not stand/stay in it it's their own choice lol
You can't blame Clerics for your death in RaiderZ to much because the game revolves alot around players avoiding damage by either dodging or blocking, the healing from Clerics just makes it a bit easier not an instant win by default. Healing amounts compared to player HP in RaiderZ is small compared to most other games.
Unfortunately, some people don't see that right away or even at all, and see Clerics as master healers that keep them alive at all times
Right now Clerics (or any class) don't even have the ability to revive others (, though I've read they used to have a skill for it).
I think you already know I also don't like those clerics. RaiderZ is not a good comparison for NW still I used it but only in context of non-tab cleric combat. RaiderZ cleric uses chainmail, hammer and shield (you can use cloth and staff too though). Raiderz had cooldown like our clerics should have, they had a circle of healing with them as center and one moveable AoE heal. It felt similar to what D&D cleric can possibly be.
Take it on faith if I say it was awesome and actually enjoyable. (clleric also had holy smites and stuff though but lets just keep to context of active combat)
@hazroth
Most of the time people don't listen a lot. But such things allow some traditional D&D style - e.g. healing self is much easier so being a tank is sometimes favourable if no defender. No mage - I have low DPS AoE spell. I am versatile! - those things.
So clerics have a greater role (actually like a leader, or jack of all trades).
@franke and vindi
Yeah we drag but people jump like rabbits all the time and can get away. But I hope you agree that it is more challenging than lamely tab targeting and is actually tougher class than wizards or melee.
<Lets just concentrate on non-tab targetting combat rather than the game :-) >
@henzai
Yeah, it is easier to heal those who melee with you (when you yourself melee the boss). This makes cleric traditional 'Fighter who can heal' D&D cleric.
(there are always butts) Also, and this is crucial, add a hotkey, preferably bindable, for "target self". That way you don't have to be a healbot and heal while standing back, but can just run up to the group of people in need of healing and quickly "target self" without really exiting the melee during the entire process. Plus, people will come to expect "heals on cleric" and actually group when in need of one.
Another targeting suggestion would be to make the cursor "stick" to priority targets (with an on/off toggle, of course), like it was done in NWN2 (and worked quite well, I might add). That way, this "action targeting" could be applied to all AoE spells (be it circle, cone or cylinder shaped) and make it easier to actually hit the enemies when attacking or allies when healing, without spending time aiming the spell from the somewhat awkward 3rd-person perspective.
Well, if the people need heals and don't know to behave in a way to make it possible, it's their own damn fault. If the group needs healing, you bet the cleric will heal the group, not the near-death guy who decided to run away.
It is done that way in DDO (for the radiant healing surge and healing aura) and it is actually used more in ordinary situations than "other" healing. And people(at least the clerics) do like it more too.
This was trickier than it sounds because if you lost sight of them via an object (like a pillar or rock) or a boss, you couldn't lock them. Also, if another party member runs in front of your cross hair while trying to lock, say the tank, you'll get them instead and you'll have to drop your locks and try again. With how much combat was constantly shifting and moving, it made it quite fun to play a healer class.
You obviously had your fair share of AoE heals too where you aimed at the ground or were PBAoE.
Tab targeting is okay... A different system would be nice though or at least having a different option as well as the tab target to give more variety and freshness to the system.
Really just want to see more about how the characters are going to look like skill/mechanic wise in general before going too far into this personally
Guild Wars 2: targeted enemies, non-targeted allies. Heals are placed largely as splash results from offense or as ground effects via pools and the like. Healing is greatly watered down in GW2, but that's more from due to the PVP orientation of the game.
Tera: Full powered MMO healing, target locking, but otherwise line of sight based healing. Reasonably convenient for healing a tank, pain in the HAMSTER for healing DPS. Very frustrating system for healers.
DCUO: Smart healing. Heals function as either area effects or group wide heals. An algorithm determines which players need heals first and covers them before spending heals on others.
How it's handled in Neverwinter is going to be very important. Healing is already a very high stress job in an MMO. It requires spending quite a bit of energy watching a UI instead of watching a game. An action based combat system stands to make a hard job that much harder and that less rewarding. Done poorly, the cleric gets to watch a UI and then franticly try to align a targeting reticle to the correct party member, hoping the incorrect member doesn't step in front at the wrong time!
I would strongly, strongly urge to avoid the LOS approach TERA used. Target linking, perhaps, but LOS healing is pretty cruel to the healers. TERA linking with DCUO smart healing, though, might turn the tables into a fun class to play.
Which one is the talent system?
RaiderZ, another PW game that's in open beta right now, uses a talent system and the targeting reticle system like NWO will.
I tried it out just to get a feel for healing with a reticle instead of F keys and Tab, and HOLY MOLY it's fun. It's much more challenging but also feels so much more natural than standing in place cycling through Tab and F.
RaiderZ is really addictive... I really only downloaded it to just tinker with the system to get a quick feel for it... now I'm scoping out gear options, spending time on the talent calculator... lol.
The gameplay is enhanced SO MUCH by the active combat system.
It's a really big step forward for MMOs.
I sincerely hope that the cleric class will follow this paradygm. Then we can talk easily about targeting systems and such.
I hope also that the various paragon paths will follow 4e tradition, bumping one of the various aspects of the class: from the classical "miracle worker" for a player who really loves the healing basics, to the radiant servant, to the warpriest model, just to remain in the player's handbook area.
St. Augustinus
Oh, i've played a Seldarine Dedicate for 6 level in a delve, i know what you mean
St. Augustinus
Raiderz hasn't changed that for anyone what your mentioning has been around the mmo world since eq2 at the very least and from what I have been reading this is not nwn fashion, nor dnd fashion this is standard pw(also most korean mmos use this) and it seems you've missed the idea of a dnd cleric entirely (not to mention dnd in its entirety as nwn is based off this). You still look at bars in any mmo regardless of being able to click them to heal just now you mouseover the player something that has also always been available. The only thing this system does is make it more difficult to target a single player within large combat scenarios as f1,f2,and f3 just guaranteed no mis clicks but healing circles on the ground for aoes please outdated before pw even thought of them. Personal opinion this is the laziest system of healing that requieres no real thought or planning, hey look everyone stand in the circles I throw on the ground. If you want to make people look at a cleric in a new light how about making real dnd/nwn clerics not a circle/aoe spammer that takes no skill or talent which I guarantee will be what the public will get. All in all I have been watching this project from the start with high hopes and all i see is the same old concepts just using different names.
Oh yeah, cause the tab and click or number toolbar heal was soo innovative too.
Look, it's maybe not new, but it's still new to many Western gamers, who could shape the use of the class this way.
Or not.
But I can't say more until I play it, and see how other players react.
What I meant by D&D cleric was the armored cleric who can melee unlike the clothed reverend who stays back and heals and sometimes sprays holy water at undead.
RaiderZ has classical mace-in-da-face cleric. For all my plays in pnp and all my plays with group, old-mage-with-the-staff and mace-in-da-face-cleric are considered the iconic builds of the respective classes.
And that is what RaiderZ encourages/adapts - hammer-in-the-face cleric who throws some spells while fighting and wears chainmail(sometimes shield) - yes the cleric can wear clothes too and handle staff, but the facts it allows chainmail and hamer for clerics while no armor for mages shows that they adapted the D&D cleric.