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athurrpewty
Member Posts: 17 Arc User
Just in case this hasn't been posted a million times already: Please stop down-scaling Lvl 20 VIP players; that would really be the best perk you could offer to a VIP player.
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Well, that was what it was before and the developers made a point/effort to develop a new system to make sure it is not the case except for the toughest content. I am not saying I agree with that.
Now about scaling in general.. Scaling where added to keep players in line, at least to some degree.. Imagine you come with non scaled 70k IL characters in dungeon like Lostmouth. Oneshoting finall boss.. How interesting it would be??
We had this situation in older times. In mod 15, when due buff/debuff end game content, Trial Cradle of death god. The end boss fight where lasting ~5s. Yup, 5 seconds.
So lot of times players who don't have fast SSD drive, they only see starting intro scene and thats it. Once video ends half party already left zone. Cuz fight already ended.
This more less eliminated all dungeon mechanics and etc..
If you want to evaluate how non scaled gameplay would be.. Take you current toon to low level zone.. That's how it would be without scaling down. Would that be interesting?? First 10 times perhaps, after next 12 kinda meh. And after 30 time you beg for real fight. That's how it where, and thats why developers added scaling. Cuz players for half of year begged developers for scaling content.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
What the point to max lv? Well the level up part is just introduction in game, it have no value here at all. Also lv up part is the Original Neverwitnter Storyline, which in past where long, but latter was highly adjusted.
Neverwinter online have 23 modules( expnasions), some remain as campaigns, some old ones got rewoked to Adventures.
Now defy whales and what you think is Fleixing?
Mythic mount is flex? Sorry.
Companions flex? sorry.
having all enchantments as mythic( max) ? sorry.
The only form of flexing where during last winter event time, when players who bough 50k zen, also gained Cunning Mimic companion. And it was not tradable, that was only time it was some sort flexing.. But, now you can buy same companion in AH ( cheaply).
So your talks about flexing is just dont work here.
Now about whales.
Do you assume that small group of players which you consider whales, outpay rest of server? Sorry, that's not how it goes. Do you think having lot of items means he is whale?
I have over 170 companions in my library, none of them where bough with money. All gained via grind, or buying from AH.
Also through time players stockpile refinament required items/materials, so they quickly upgrade new items. So while it's look like rich one who spent money, in reality he spent little to no money for game.
The most spending money are ones who on path to max out their characters and who want do it quickly.
In short whales who constantly spent money for game and flexing, they does not exist here in Neverwinter.
But you are always welcome to become the whale.
For scaling part,, I already explained in my previous post. No fight = boring = players depart to other games.
Also, My rogue 45k IL have no issue in Dragon_vale, and same in Well of Dragons. So it's a suprise to hear how you have issues in Well of dragons.. I have see even 35k IL players in well of dragons and have no issues. So does scaling a problem, or simply player lack combat experiance.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
In scaled content 2 things are changed for your character. Your base HP and base DMG. Nothing more. Your scaled in an attempt to match the monsters. If you want unscaled, do you know what we'll get? Jacked up monsters that pugs don't stand a chance with. Trust me, they're not going to leave the monster difficulty as is if scaling goes away. Many pugs don't stand a chance as it is, but unscaled I would expect to be much worse.
Unlike you new players, we old ones where there, before scaling got implemented.
Sure at first it's seems nice, you big tough one, comes and one shoting enemies. But thats remain fun for first 10 times, after that becomes mehh, and after another 20 times you get bored to point you don't want to play this game anymore.
So do you want that back??
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
It was NICE to feel uber powerful and I spent 9 months hard work, time and effort to get to about 180k power on my Barbarian and to occasionally get top damage score etc So im fairly casual player but that took more than 500 hours and this was when you had to grind through campaigns etc. So yeah the boons took a long time to earn.
When I started NW it took me nearly 2 years to catch up with even close to end game [at about 10hours casual per week] so yes feeling very powerful was something that took time.
I never once saw a one-shot like in those YouTube clips but yes we used to melt Tiamat dragon heads in seconds.
I dont like scaling down, it feels un natural. Just make New content tougher....
And then players complain its too hard...
Scaling is all about making you grind/work more to trick you into thinking you have something to do. I was here before mod 16 and I preferred no scaling. As far as I could tell it never helped new players, but just made more work for everyone. Besides being weaker and losing ground, I now had to have 10 mythic mounts and comps, 5 collars and upgrading new comps every time the old ones are nerfed, etc. Strangely, I can’t ride through most dungeons, but my mount can attack anyway.
New players scaling up in, say, dragon hunts just doesn’t work. They don’t have the mount powers, artifacts, experience and all that they need, so scaling is still unbalanced and never will be balanced. Funny how in the recruitment event, I just blew through everything using an acct mythic mount while seeing new players struggling in those leveling areas. The only time scaling helps new players is when they get to be carried through something like a dragon hunt, and that really isn’t the right kind of help.
So, yeah, I’m for the “boredom” of non-scaling, where it felt like you were getting somewhere. It was an accomplishment. It wasn’t boring because if you wanted something hard, you could try soloing ever harder dungeons or BHEs (Yesterhill is always fun to solo), not to mention having normal and expert versions of most dungeons/trials *and* hardcore mode.
It’s funny, too, how people used to tell others to take off their armor for a challenge, but many didn’t want to. Since, scaling, I’ve seen plenty of people take off their armor so they won’t get poorly scaled, lol. I know no one who likes scaling and plenty are from before mod 16. Instead of the years of work put in on failed scaling, fixing and bringing the Foundry back would’ve done much more for this “boredom”. That was the biggest mistake ever made in this game and it happened right at the same time the mistake of scaling came along.
I am not big fan of current scaling, it's bad implemented and in various cases do not encourage players get better, also it's easy to cheat/bypass it. ( remove few enchantments and your IL goes down, scaling get removed).
However, if I have to choose between current scaling or no scaling. I rather stay with current than get bored in first 10 days.
Now you say it's nce to feel uber powerfull. For some players yes.
But now tell me, what's better, to have OP class, insane OP stats, and face with low lv enemy/creature which can't even fight back. Or you rather face a real challenge and beat it.
I rather have a challange, whcih Is hard to beat, and after completing it feels as acheavement, than making challanages look like a joke. A fight where players presence is not even required. Not much acheavement in such fight.
As example, I still hate that due overbroken ahceavement system, I was not rewarded with titles
Hardcore dungeoner ( Complete all non epic dungeons on HC mode), I done them all on HC mode SOLO.
Epi Hardcore Dungeoneer ( complete all epic version dungeons on HC mode) exlluding CR and mSP, which I have done with party, rest of epic dungeons I done SOLO.
And Hardcore Skirmish runner ( Complete all skirmishes on HC mode) I done them all on HC mode SOLO.
Was it hard. Pff nah. It was a joke.
So how you can consider that as acheavement if enemy does not even have a chance to win against you.
Also what the point to developers add mechanics in dungeon if players due high Raw stats could ignore and walk them through?
Due scaling, players finally started to pay attention to dungeon/trial mechanics. Before that, it was one players army.
Without 200k Power, and 80k other stats. With my non end game geared warlock I was tank, heal and dps, all in one. .IF I get in any x dungeon with pugs. I was not even need to pay attention do any of them died, or they are AFK. Their presence was not Required.
And this Reaper chllenge proved how much playerbased have forgot how to play this game.. Even silly, low/early dungeons for even well geared players where a tough one. All cuz they have never learned these dungeon mechanics, and it was cuz it was not required to learn. You could simply ignore them.
So while current scaling is not great, as long there is no better alternative, I stay with scaling.. Cuz no challange = no drive to get better = bored = looking for other game..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
The fact that the developers thought it necessary to implement because well geared players could easily defeat what was considered high end content has less to do with keeping the game interesting and supposedly "fun" than it does with the lack of class balance and forethought from the outset. The simply reality of the number of major changes to the game in the last 2 years has less to do with the supposed repeat and continued playability of the game and it's boring content than it has to do with the lack of planning and creativity from the beginning.
I would suggest that it's easier to nerf players in content that's beneath their capabilities than it is to actually address class balance and develop meaningful and interesting content. I'm scared to think how many hours were spent on scaling that could have and should have been spent on creating new content or fixing existing problems. When scaling was introduced as the next best thing we were told that it would put an end to players shedding gear to manipulate the effects of scaling. How by using loadouts as a work around or getting one shot by trash mobs in MoTH or ToDG for not changing gear?
If I wanted to play with numbers I'd go back to accounting and playing with spreadsheets. I don't consider number crunching to be part of my rpg experience, it never was in any of the dozens of games I've played over the last 30 years.
Hey, I'm all for Cryptic making money to pay their bills and keep the game going but expecting me to pay to regain what was taken away with changes and reworks to gear, companions, refinement, combat etc isn't the best way to ensure economic sustainability in my opinion. It's simply not that good a game to redo hours and hours of grinding or worse paying real money to get back to what I had before. Nor is releasing content that isn't ready to play unless you like working around bugs or things that simply don't work at all. Isn't that what the preview servers are for, to get feedback and address problems identified by the player base before release? We're not talking about a new startup company, the game has been around for years and yet we continue to see errors and bugs and an almost total lack of quality control in the product that's released to live servers.
There's an old saying, "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail" Or my personal favorite "never time to do it right but always time to do it again" From my perspective, both are applicable to my Neverwinter experience thus far.
When I started playing this game Life-steal was a big problem almost completely negating the need for healers. Does that surprise anyone who has played any other game? To me that demonstrates minimal consideration of the consequences of only 2 states for hit points, full or none. The fact that it took years to address speaks more of the lack of creativity, forethought and planning than it does of players exploiting what the game offers and complaining about the lack of challenge. Instead of scaling why not create levels of difficulty, it was there for Demo and Master Demo so it is possible? Why not now? I don't disagree that players should know mechanics or suffer but I think offering levels of difficulty is a much better option than scaling.
As for recent releases, offering mythic gear for completing at least 100 dragon hunts, (rngeesus willing), isn't just short sighted and boring but how many people are going to do it for more than one character they would like to play? As for me I avoid scaled content as much as possible and have no intention of ever killing 100 or more dragons on any character I play for gear that will likely be outdated and obsolete with the release of the next mod. Maybe it's my fault for not having an addictive personality but thinking that the more time I spend online will increase the chances of me financially supporting the game isn't just wrong it's completely missing the point of why I play rpg's in the first place. I play for fun, a distraction from real life. I don't need my play time in Neverwinter to remind me of working for a living. I'd willingly and happily pay for a quality product that respects the time I invest and offers rewards suitable for my efforts in overcoming interesting and challenging content. Sadly, it's just not Neverwinter. And please don't ask why I continue to play, I haven't yet met anyone who deserves or is entitled to an answer.
And honestly I cant understand why your toon would have such a hard time in WoD - could you explain a bit more and maybe we could help you a bit more?
Item Level? Class? paragon path?
I could well be wrong but I suspect it is about your stat balance.
There are 2 parts in the build that makes the character strong.
1. item level which gives you higher HP and damage in non-scaled content.
2. stat percentage that gives you healthy build for both scaled and non-scaled content.
#2 is the part that players should pay the most attention. #1 can hide #2 problem in non-scaled content.
Higher item level does not give you a stronger character if it has significant negative effect to #2.
Higher item level usually makes #2 worse if not careful picking proper stat. Bad #2 gives character hard time in scaled content and somewhat in non-scaled content.
For those who has separated loadout for scaled content, they would rearrange stat to boost #2 in that loadout.
If you want to, you can show us your main stats screen shot. Some can point out what can be improved.
e.g. something like this for the screen shot:
As many have stated, there´s more to a veteran player which gets downscaled than mere stats: artifact/mount/companion/item proc powers, boons, etc. And I remember fighting those mobs as a newbie, and still see new (or low IL upscaled) players taking a multiple of my time to kill the same mobs (while taking damage which I didn´t) in scaled content.
I don´t mind changing statistics between scaled and non-scaled content because I don´t need maxed statistics 24/7. This game is well playable without maxed stats.
And in the end, it´s the result that matters: being scaled down doesn´t make it deadly content but a little bit more challenging than being able to stand afk in a bunch of mobs. In real D&D, they´d roll a natural 20 every now and then
Maybe running unscaled dungeons is an option, but it offers lower rewards because it's understood the time spent within the dungeon will be less. Then people can run it, solo it, whatever to their hearts content! And those of us who don't like steamrolling through, and appreciate the scaling and the way it encourages roles and teamwork, can run things the way we prefer it!
Any fix would need to be based on player choice, and isolating these conditions based on dungeon group vs individual players, to have it work though. A group with a mix of scaled/unscaled wouldn't be fun for either side to go with. One would complain about the performance of some of the players, the other would complain about being left behind.
Edit: I guess this isn't addressing the fact that your post is about zones! I actually think campaign areas and advanced dungeons/epic trials shouldn't have any scaling whatsoever. They are considered "end game content" and you should be able to use your full stats, imo, to help your party along. Some campaign areas might get "boring" but if you are progressing the way you should, it's rare someone running an area is that overleveled once you get to the point where you are simply grinding out item level to raise your stats.
For dungeons = upscaling enemies is only solution.
The master expedition in mod 16 proved that it can be done in such way.
Players could run basic( non scaled) epxedition runes, but obviously no additional reward from chest. Or,
do run scaled versions by adding runes. Each rune increased difficulty, so party could choose how much increase it.
And with x3 runes you have chance to do watcher( weapon set) fight.
Also if there is decent reward, then players would do these dungeons, even in upscaled version. The Reapers Challenge proved that.
Now when comes donwscaling as current implementation. Look from this view point.
Players who done ToMM or zariel, when it was new content. It was desing for that previous IL/stats, and these trials acted as challenge.
Now imagine players without downscaling get with current mod end game gear there? It would not be a challenge. This eliminate acheavement for players who did them at that time. All their acheavements and acomplishments get trashed down.
It was hard content and now some casuals beating them.
I think contents should bring challenges, that they where desing for. Thats for dungeon and even open world content.
The big heroic encounter for example are desing for multi player level challenge. But now without scaling some random player doing them solo.
Also for everyone need to remmeber, that for time where hard to get party. Cuz no one wanted to play tank/heal. Who needed them if in most of game content due high stats enemies can't harm you anyways. Which also where causing class disbalance( never ending issue).
But, well in the end majority of players have to decide.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
There's ways to make content more challenging. There's Reapers, hardcore mode, and the newest endgame content. I'm a casual player in that I play this game for fun, once a week or so, for pretty limited time. I've still worked hard to get where I am and I shouldn't be told there's some content I'm just not going to be able to ever do. That's a really damaging mindset, honestly, in a game like this. It chases people away because to build up to the level where they can play with friends who are more advanced, players have to go through the (extremely grindy) process of getting there.
That's why the option of scaled vs unscaled runs, even on endgame content, would fix a LOT of problems in my opinion. Training runs could be unscaled so that less experienced players can be carried through and shown the mechanics without completely destroying any chance of the entire dungeon/trial to pass if they can't put up enough dps or perfectly perform mechanics. There's some trials I'd just like to see but I haven't been able to find a chance to try. It isn't worth it to waste everyone's time on a player who hasn't done it before.
Content is a part of the game. Completing it is also a part of the game - it isn't a status symbol. If you want a status symbol, then by all means, track up damage on the charts or farm things like the band of air. dungeons and trials should be doable, at the very least, by the people who meet the specified item level. Since that is so often not the case, allowing higher level players to make up the difference while lower level ones learn seems like a good compromise to me.
(The other argument is that when those dungeons and trials came out, the rewards were the best in the game. That's no longer the case - so the effort to get them adjusts to fit as well. I'm not against scaling. I just think the idea that 'hard content needs to stay exactly as hard as it was when it came out' is pretty limiting on a game with endless vertical progression)
The definition of Balance has to change.
1. Thou Shalt not Nerf the players and return them to their level 80 status.
2. Thou Shalt not Nerf the player's equipment and return it to level 80 status.
3. Thou Shalt Read the 5(e) Rules. (Note: When a Dragon roars they may stun the PC for up to 1 minute, If you save or if the minute expires during the fight - The player is Immune to Dragon's Roar until the next Game day.)
4. Thou shalt increase hp of the monsters to Balance the new damage done by the players and reward the players with better reward chests.
5. To make it a little more fair for all, Thou Shalt increase the hp of the players below end game level (about 70k IL) by up to 10% to compensate them for doing end game content.