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New paragons, Third Level, Adaptive Skill Base.

alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 133 Arc User
edited November 2021 in Player Feedback (PC)
@nitocris83 @lassor

Hello everyone, welcome to my distant dream world.

The ideal (Third Level Paragons)

I'm bringing this topic to address an old idea for a new system, it's just a base idea for implementing that system, feel free to leave your opinions or new suggestions for improvement. I present to you the Third Level Paragons, new paragons in the Neverwinter classes, there are no secrets behind this idea, basically assuming that the two current paragons would be identified as first and second level, a new paragon would be released for unlocking after a X amount of Total Item Level. it is not necessarily a paragon superior to the previous ones, there is only a limitation in its unlocking.

First Release Phase (Trial)

Let's say it takes 40k of TIL to release this new pararon's line quest, as with the current Sharandar campaign release, this third paragon line quest would be delivered by your class representative NPC and would give you a generous sequel of quests instantiated to be done alone with help from NPC allies if necessary, with specific skill tests based on your class to be "rated" your gameplay, a way to recognize the technical performance of the player, giving him real challenges, some good ones rewards could be added to quests and at the end of the first release phase a bigger reward as is done in the current adventure system.

I imagine these quests have a very high level of difficulty, based on the role of the active paragon at the time of the quest, (perhaps the completion of these quests need to be done with specific paragons of each class, based on the paragon that has more connection with the new paragon a be unlocked). If you start the quest as a healer, suitable tank NPCs and dps will appear for you to be challenged to keep them alive, quests with check heal appearing from time to time similar to TOMM's, some checks needing X amount of mitigation to keep them alive. NPCs live some tests with direct failure like the trobriand check if he dies it is necessary to restart the quest. The same would be done for a tank with several check tanks and NPC dps and healer to accompany him while he performs all the quests with the various tests that prove his aggro power and resistance, the dps would have dps check in several ways, quests with many red zones to check your power to dodge and manage your stamina, control and clean up large groups of enemies among others, of course the NPC tank and healer in particular need to have adequate artificial intelligence to help. This could also give a “supreme” class/paragon domain title.

The idea here is not to put players in frustrating enemy hit kill situations, but to bring a high level challenge to the line quest's level item, (these quests need to have scaling sync active to challenge everyone with the item much higher level). I understand that all this will take work to get done, configure the 3 quest lines for the 3 game functions and ensure that the NPCs are effective so that this quest can be done solo without being too easy, to the point that anyone can complete it, or very difficult to the point that not even the best players can complete it is not something simple to achieve, but I know it is possible, and after everything is done and a good balance reached the same project can be implemented in future situations in campaign quests, quests of release for 4th level paragons, events and others.

Second Phase of Release (Incorporation)

With all that in place, the player reaches his best performance with his class/paragon and moves on to the second release phase, a second directional line quest is released following to the third level paragon, let's talk more about this second step later on. .
What would this third level paragon be like? Basically they would be paragons that work on the D&D idea of ​​multi-class subclasses. I am not an expert in D&D, but I believe that this system can be well adapted using the concepts I am bringing, I would like to thank anyone who is more experienced in D&D and can contribute with additions to the system.

In a not very thorough research, I was able to discover some concepts of subclasses and I could see that some have as “prerequisite” some level points in multiclass with a certain secondary class.

I'll use as an example the Lasher or Whipper, a subclass that uses whip and can be derived from some classes, what I found most as a recommendation was a Rogue for agile and stealthy combat, with Fighter points to acquire skill in martial weapons that allows the use of the whip, but they probably have other ways to get there. In this case the gameplay of the second phase of release for a Rogue would be a line quest delivered by an NPC Fighter for the Rogue to incorporate his teachings, that NPC would accompany the Rogue to a certain point in the line quest until an NPC Lasher would be introduced into the story. to finish the incorporation phase and release the new paragon to the Rogue.

Problems

Now let's address some problems involved in this idea and possible solutions, I ask that if anyone else has a different solution these problems share with us, as well as if you identify any problem that was not addressed here.

weapons

The weapon factor is a particular problem for this. considering that there are no whips in Neverwinter I thought of 2 solutions for this.

1- Weapons exclusive to paragons, this is a concept that I like the most because it increases the variety of items to farm, basically it's a new weapon that needs to be created, as was done with the bard, however this weapon can only be equipped if the current loadout is a Lasher, there's not much secret and I think it's the easiest way to implement it in Neverwinter.
2- Adaptive Weapons to Paragons, this is a concept that can bring implementation problems and makes things a little less fun in my point of view, but I'll leave the idea here for anyone who wants to guess, basically all our weapons would have the “ power" to automatically transform based on its current paragon, in which case a Rogue changing to a Lasher paragon would have one of his daggers turned into a whip, the stat modifiers and bonuses on at will need to be saved in each weapon mode . it's a concept that is more practical for the player, but harder for devs in my view, and it doesn't make much sense with D&D, so I prefer option 1.

Base Skills

The base skills that we have before releasing the first paragons is a problem, simpler, although Rogue's base skills only use daggers, Lasher can also use them through off hand, that doesn't mean that these base skills don't need to be modified, however other classes may have bigger problems if the base skills have nothing to do with the new 3rd level paragon weapons, these will need a higher level of modification to suit.

I made a comment in a post about tweaks in the wizard where I discussed the idea of ​​adaptive base Skills currently in Neverwinter, regardless of this idea of ​​new paragons, I'll leave it here an excerpt to improve the context of the discussion.

“I've read a lot of posts talking about increasing magnitude and reducing the skills countdown, maybe this is not the best way to work these changes, however some very specific balances in this regard can be successfully resolved, although I believe that some more important swings should be within class mechanics like smolder and rimefire, as well as Class Features and Feats. That said, I bring my suggestion that goes a little further than what I've just said and what I've read in the various posts, and it would probably be interesting to be discussed in all Neverwinter classes. It's about Adaptive Base Skills, (the initials before the paragon), which automatically adapt to the chosen paragons, I'll use a good example in the current game which was the modification made in Warlock's Embrance Vampirc in the mini healer rework in M19, it's a Basic class skill that is modified if Soulweaver paragon is chosen, and remains the same if Hellbrinber is chosen, I must say more appropriate would be a change if Hellbrings was chosen too, at least a magnitude and range change to improve sense of progression, but that is beside the point.

The cleric also gets a bastion change which has modified costs and magnitudes depending on the chosen paragon, I would like things like that to be covered in all the basic skills of the game classes. Let's bring that view into our current topic, we have in the mage basic skills, ice skills and arcane skills, no fire skills, which are unique to TT, and no lightning skills, which are unique to AC. let's use the ice terrain skill, an ice base skill, it could be modified if the Arcanist paragon was chosen, converting the ice element into arcane energy, or turning it into an electric terrain, just like arcane base skills could be converted to fire or ice abilities if the Thaumaturge was chosen. This type of approach would bring more diversity and cohesion to each paragon, making them more suited to larger skill options. I daresay that same concept could be addressed in Class Features Base as well, but perhaps it's more situational. I understand that this would be a lot more work compared to simple changes of magnitude, for example, because in addition to programming new interactions in these changes, there would be the visual issue of these changes to be created, especially if addressed in all classes of the game, but I believe that it would be something very enriching for the game.

I know that many will not agree because they prefer to stay in the comfort zone, but I am a big enthusiast of big changes, especially when they are made thinking about the improvement and success of the game. NOTE: How difficult would it be to program a system that would allow us to walk while casting skills? This would alleviate a lot of time-consuming casting issues and unwanted cancellations.”

This was the post made in the Wizard topic, using the concepts above as a reference I believe that base skills problems can be solved with something close to what I'm going to put below. Please note, the suggestions below are just a guess as to how base Rogue skills might behave in Lasher (changing the name and icon of these skills might be an option).

Stealth (Mechanic): Your meter has two parts, upper (above 50%) and lower (under 50%) both can be turned on and off at any time, your stealth dries up an amount every second it is active.
Enter Stealth to move undetected for a short time, grant combat advantage for 3 seconds, enemies below 20 feet can detect your presence.
Stealthed Above: Stealthing using the upper bar allows you to use additional effects on your skills and consumes a percentage of your bar. being detected by enemies here removes your combat advantage gain and slightly reduces your stealth amount.
Stealthed Below: Stealthing using the lower gauge does not add effect to skills, but regenerates a generous portion of your gauge. being detected by enemies here does not remove your combat advantage gain, extends the effect to 6 seconds, and does not reduce your stealth


Sly Flourish (At-will): Places a blade on the tip of the whip, adding 40 range (skill is still considered melee).

Roll (Shift): The traveled distance is reduced, but a second activation is added, if activated at the end of the animation of the first cast the Lasher can choose a nearby high with his whip to throw himself at him, range of 30 units, for one 50% cost of first cast.

Cloud of Steel (At-will): Receives mild magnitude reduction. adds effect: every third daggers thrown the Lasher whips the target as a bonus action, when it reaches a maximum of 10 stacks the whip does 2 hits of damage instead of 1.

Blade Flurry (Encounter): The magnitude is severely reduced. additional effect after known blade spin, Lasher gains Agile Reflex Stack for each enemy hit for 3 seconds up to a maximum of 10.
The Lasher can cast Blade Flurry again in the next 3 seconds, this time using the whip with a much greater range and the same base magnitude as the blade plus one additional magnitude for each Agile Reflex stack acquired by the blade.

Stealthed Below: In the second cast, enemies hit are lightly pulled closer to the Lasher and the bonus nimble reflex damage is doubled.

Hateful Knives (Daily): The Lasher uses the whip to bind to the enemy causing 1000 magnitude and knocking them down, ending with a dagger that applies 800 magnitude bleed.

Lashing Blade (Encounter): Magnitude slightly reduced, the skill gains 40 range, being cast through the use of the whip, the blade remains embedded in the target for 6 seconds increasing the damage the Lasher deals to that target by 10%. (the continuous skills considered melee).
Stealthed Above: The skill can be cast again within 6 seconds causing the Lasher to use the whip to pull the blade back dealing 30% base damage or 60% if the hit is critical.

Skillful Infiltrator (Class Features): Increases your movement speed by 10%. Adds 2.5% Critical Strike and Deflect (same as we currently have). additional effect: if the second conjugation of the Roll (Shift) is performed, the Lasher receives double this bonus for 5 seconds.

Path of the Blade (Encounter): The skill works the same way initially. additional effect, during the action of the skill the Lasher can hold the TAB button up to 2 times for 3 seconds to regenerate a percentage of his stealth, stamina and HP bar.
Stealthed Above: (Full modification) While holding TAB to activate his regenerations, Lasher can unleash extra attacks with his cone-shaped whip with 100 magnitude AoE damage per hit, maximum 1 hit per 2 seconds.

Tactics (Class Feature): Increases your action point gain by 10%.
Stealthed Below: Activating stealth below doubles your bonus to 20% for 6 seconds.

Whirlwind of Blades (Daily): The lasher does a double spin with his whip dealing 150 magnitude damage for each spin within a 50 radius, bringing enemies closer to the center, 10 feet of approach each spin. at the end of the last spin whips your daggers causing 200 magnitude pushing enemies.
Bonus Effect Increases your damage by 3% for each enemy within 10 feet that is knocked back, up to a maximum of 5 enemies. Duration: 10s

Swift Footwork (Skill): Your Stamina regenerates 5% faster. (nothing to change)

Smoke Bomb (Encounter): A very complete skill and fits well with the idea of ​​Lasher, I think it would not be necessary changes.

Sneak Attack (Class Feature): Increases your movement speed by 15% and increases the recharge rate of your powers by 10% while stealth.
Additional Effect:
Stealthed Below: Your next encounter doesn't remove your stealth. 20 seconds of countdown.

Courage Breaker (Daily): This daily doesn't seem to need modification, maybe some situational buffs based on stealth mechanics.

Cunning Ambusher (Skill): You deal 10% more damage on your first encounter after exiting Stealthed Below or 5% more damage on your first encounter after exiting Stealthed Above.

Bait and Switch (Encounter): Jump backwards by throwing a bait instead that has 50% of your Max Hits and lasts for 10 seconds. The bait will trick enemies up to 20' away, forcing them to attack the bait. Bosses cannot be fooled. Gain Action Points when the range of action against enemies consumes more of your stealth bar.
Stealthed Below: Doubles the AP gain the bait gives you when taking damage and explodes on death or after its duration, slowing down engaged enemies by regenerating their stealth based on the number of enemies hit

Tenacious Concealment (Class Feature): Reduces stealth loss by 20% when using skills or being detected. Increases Stealth regeneration by 10%.

Scoundrel Training (Skill): Adds 1% combat advantage and 1% critical strike.



Warlock The Hexblade was a proposal that I intended to create similar examples as a third paragon with a larger dagger, basically it's a Warlock tank. Warlock's skill structure easily allows for an adaptation with the addition of threat generators in some skills, along with the potential control of Arms of Hadar, an improvement to the mitigation of Blades of Vanquished Armies, perhaps with being possible to use only on yourself , and with a little shared mitigation for those nearby. a stamina defense blocking a blow with a projected version of your dagger repelling enemy blows with a green mist.

I started writing this post about 8 months ago, after the release of the M20, but I ended up leaving it aside, as I mentioned so I intended at least to do a more complete exemplification for The Hexblade like I did for p Lasher, but I ended up giving up. and I decided to finish up to where I was and post so as not to lose what I had developed. maybe some Dev likes it and tries to improve this idea for a release.

There are many possibilities for new paragons within the existing classes, and having new weapons for each paragon, including existing ones, with the pretext of adaptive base skills, is something I really like, tell me what you like and what you don't to you within these ideas, remembering that the examples of skill, effects and magnitudes are only figurative for example criteria, if you want to leave with your opinion any suggestions on how one or another skills could be modified in a possible new paragon of your class , feel free.

I thank everyone who read the entire text, and also those who went to comment on their opinions.


NOTE: forgive me for the possible errors of agreement in the text, if this happens it's all google translator's fault :)

Edit: Here are my other posts with suggestions, for those who want to check it out:

1 - REDUCTION OF RNG, PROGRESSION BARS, BESTIARY + MONETIZATION:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1258453/reduction-of-rng-progression-bars-bestiary-monetization

2 - ENCHANTMENT SYSTEM REWORK + NEW MARK SYSTEM:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1261228/enchantment-system-rework-new-mark-system

3 - NEW RACIAL SYSTEM, SEPARATING RACIAL APPEARANCE FROM SKILLS + NEW SLOTS FOR RACE SKILLS:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1260304/new-racial-system-separating-racial-appearance-from-skills-new-slots-for-race-skills

4 - ZARIEL CHALLENGE MASTER'S MOUNT, UPGRADE SUGGESTION + CONCEPTUAL ART.:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1261527/zariel-challenge-masters-mount-upgrade-suggestion-conceptual-art

5 - NEW PARAGONS, THIRD LEVEL, ADAPTIVE SKILL BASE:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1263494/new-paragons-third-level-adaptive-skill-base


Ty all

Comments

  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    I haven't read the whole post yet, so bear that in mind. Adding a third paragon path to classes by itself will take a considerable amount of time to develop and have them very roughly balanced. Noworries has described it as similar to adding 8 (at the time) new classes. With that in mind, this proposal would take a very long time to implement, one that would take away from developing content (notice the lack of content with the introduction of Bard).
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    edited November 2021
    arazith07 said:

    I haven't read the whole post yet, so bear that in mind. Adding a third paragon path to classes by itself will take a considerable amount of time to develop and have them very roughly balanced. Noworries has described it as similar to adding 8 (at the time) new classes. With that in mind, this proposal would take a very long time to implement, one that would take away from developing content (notice the lack of content with the introduction of Bard).

    I completely agree with you, something like this, especially the way I suggested it would take a long time, but it would also be something that would give a new life to the game. Anyway it couldn't be done right now if they wanted to, as you said yourself, the lack of content needs to be stabilized before anything else, and the ascension project should still have things to show us in the near future. after that maybe something bigger like new paragons can be placed in the list of possible projects
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,766 Arc User
    They stripped out one paragon path from each class when they dumbed down the game. I don't see them ever adding them back.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    They stripped out one paragon path from each class when they dumbed down the game. I don't see them ever adding them back.

    I believe you are thinking of feat trees, which they removed 2.5+ of. And most of those really were just false choices.
  • hexngone#5489 hexngone Member Posts: 370 Arc User
    I would like to see them actually bother to add the tooltips for Hunter/Warden/Ranger Feats when in Melee mode *back to the interface* before they change anything else in the paragon/feat system. They have done a great disservice to all Warden players by hiding the powers from the UI/Powers page.

    As was stated above, the third paragon/feat tree was removed before to 'simplify' configuration. I would rather they just leave it thus and fix all the other things that are broken before dreaming about it again.
  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 1,065 Arc User
    edited November 2021
    arazith07 said:

    greywynd said:

    They stripped out one paragon path from each class when they dumbed down the game. I don't see them ever adding them back.

    I believe you are thinking of feat trees, which they removed 2.5+ of. And most of those really were just false choices.
    Yea but the endless possibility/combinations of allotting points made each character unique.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,404 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    greywynd said:

    They stripped out one paragon path from each class when they dumbed down the game. I don't see them ever adding them back.

    I believe you are thinking of feat trees, which they removed 2.5+ of. And most of those really were just false choices.
    Don't forget they also got rid of the Heroic feats (pre-paragon) ... also of which were generally full of false choices.

    Yea but the endless possibility/combinations of allotting points made each character unique.

    You seemed to miss the false choices part.
    Back in the day, the feats that you picked generally were exceedingly good/made the class, or feats you picked because it was the least bad of the options available.

    The point allocation thing also may as well have not mattered aside from having a good feeling of progression. Everyone would maximize a feat or put 0 points into it, with a very small set of exceptions (2-3 points in the CW's Nightmare Wizardry and 1 point into the Conqueror Guardian Fighter's Grit) that I can think of.

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,404 Arc User


    First Release Phase (Trial)

    Let's say it takes 40k of TIL to release this new pararon's line quest, as with the current Sharandar campaign release, this third paragon line quest would be delivered by your class representative NPC and would give you a generous sequel of quests instantiated to be done alone with help from NPC allies if necessary, with specific skill tests based on your class to be "rated" your gameplay, a way to recognize the technical performance of the player, giving him real challenges, some good ones rewards could be added to quests and at the end of the first release phase a bigger reward as is done in the current adventure system.

    I imagine these quests have a very high level of difficulty, based on the role of the active paragon at the time of the quest, (perhaps the completion of these quests need to be done with specific paragons of each class, based on the paragon that has more connection with the new paragon a be unlocked).

    This is good, I like that this would mechanically encourages you to learn your role.



    If you start the quest as a healer, suitable tank NPCs and dps will appear for you to be challenged to keep them alive, quests with check heal appearing from time to time similar to TOMM's, some checks needing X amount of mitigation to keep them alive. NPCs live some tests with direct failure like the trobriand check if he dies it is necessary to restart the quest. The same would be done for a tank with several check tanks and NPC dps and healer to accompany him while he performs all the quests with the various tests that prove his aggro power and resistance, the dps would have dps check in several ways, quests with many red zones to check your power to dodge and manage your stamina, control and clean up large groups of enemies among others, of course the NPC tank and healer in particular need to have adequate artificial intelligence to help. This could also give a “supreme” class/paragon domain title.

    The idea here is not to put players in frustrating enemy hit kill situations, but to bring a high level challenge to the line quest's level item, (these quests need to have scaling sync active to challenge everyone with the item much higher level). I understand that all this will take work to get done, configure the 3 quest lines for the 3 game functions and ensure that the NPCs are effective so that this quest can be done solo without being too easy, to the point that anyone can complete it, or very difficult to the point that not even the best players can complete it is not something simple to achieve, but I know it is possible, and after everything is done and a good balance reached the same project can be implemented in future situations in campaign quests, quests of release for 4th level paragons, events and others.

    I do think that your idea for the tanking and healing quests are going to run into problems with how tanking and healing were fundamentally redesigned in Mod 16.

    Namely, that tank and healer quests wouldn't be as much of a check of player skill, as it would be a check on how good the player's stats are and how cooperative the friendly AI is.


    Second Phase of Release (Incorporation)

    Basically they would be paragons that work on the D&D idea of ​​multi-class subclasses. I am not an expert in D&D, but I believe that this system can be well adapted using the concepts I am bringing, I would like to thank anyone who is more experienced in D&D and can contribute with additions to the system.

    I would just like to point out this wont work, since post Mod 16 NW loves to pretend it is a D&D game, but lacking any mechanical D&D substance to it apart from named references.

    If it actually included some of that mechanical substance into the subclass/gameplay, then you'd have something to work with.


    I'll use as an example the Lasher or Whipper, a subclass that uses whip and can be derived from some classes, what I found most as a recommendation was a Rogue for agile and stealthy combat, with Fighter points to acquire skill in martial weapons that allows the use of the whip, but they probably have other ways to get there. In this case the gameplay of the second phase of release for a Rogue would be a line quest delivered by an NPC Fighter for the Rogue to incorporate his teachings, that NPC would accompany the Rogue to a certain point in the line quest until an NPC Lasher would be introduced into the story. to finish the incorporation phase and release the new paragon to the Rogue.

    [...]

    The weapon factor is a particular problem for this. considering that there are no whips in Neverwinter I thought of 2 solutions for this.

    1- Weapons exclusive to paragons, this is a concept that I like the most because it increases the variety of items to farm, basically it's a new weapon that needs to be created, as was done with the bard, however this weapon can only be equipped if the current loadout is a Lasher, there's not much secret and I think it's the easiest way to implement it in Neverwinter.

    I was originally going to point out that this would not work.

    Not for a lack of creativity or interest, but due to missing tabletop mechanics: weapons in NW weapons having 0 mechanical distinction between the weapon types.


    weapons

    2- Adaptive Weapons to Paragons, this is a concept that can bring implementation problems and makes things a little less fun in my point of view, but I'll leave the idea here for anyone who wants to guess, basically all our weapons would have the “ power" to automatically transform based on its current paragon, in which case a Rogue changing to a Lasher paragon would have one of his daggers turned into a whip, the stat modifiers and bonuses on at will need to be saved in each weapon mode . it's a concept that is more practical for the player, but harder for devs in my view, and it doesn't make much sense with D&D, so I prefer option 1.

    ... However, that problem was solved by the adapted skills you suggested.

    The new powers suggested generally acknowledge that the subclass's new choice of weapon is mechanically different in function compared to the original class, such as the Whip Rogue's choice of weapon granted extra range/AoE radius on melee attacks, modified daily/encounter powers changing more towards bleed damage/building and consuming stacks of debuffs on enemies, or a new dodge flavored as using your whip like a grappling hook.

    Though I do think some of the changes you suggest are weird and have, such as Cloud of Steel getting a damage reduction (when it already is a weak At-will in terms of damage) or no changes Swift Footwork (are you really going to notice that extra 5% Stamina Regen when other class features are generally more powerful?), but those can be ironed out on a power by power basis.

  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 1,065 Arc User
    edited November 2021
    rjc9000 said:

    arazith07 said:

    greywynd said:

    They stripped out one paragon path from each class when they dumbed down the game. I don't see them ever adding them back.

    I believe you are thinking of feat trees, which they removed 2.5+ of. And most of those really were just false choices.
    Don't forget they also got rid of the Heroic feats (pre-paragon) ... also of which were generally full of false choices.

    Yea but the endless possibility/combinations of allotting points made each character unique.

    You seemed to miss the false choices part.
    Back in the day, the feats that you picked generally were exceedingly good/made the class, or feats you picked because it was the least bad of the options available.

    The point allocation thing also may as well have not mattered aside from having a good feeling of progression. Everyone would maximize a feat or put 0 points into it, with a very small set of exceptions (2-3 points in the CW's Nightmare Wizardry and 1 point into the Conqueror Guardian Fighter's Grit) that I can think of.
    Not everyone maximized a feat, sometimes people would put various combos of points on various things. Also sometimes you couldn't max one and would run out of points before the prior ones were locked. Whether you think those points allocated were worth anything or not is another story, but each character was indeed kind of unique in build back then by virtue of the complex tree system and how it worked and how you could take bonuses from different trees and combine them into one character build, and not the oversimplified cookie-cutter thing we have now.
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    They stripped out one paragon path from each class when they dumbed down the game. I don't see them ever adding them back.

    you must be referring to the 3 lines of feat choices that existed until the M15, although I like to have several possibilities, I believe that many of the options were not very usual, and were not actually paragons. if i had a choice, i would take the current paragon organization with a cleaner version of the old feat lines. but this is already something for another topic who knows. my proposal is new paragon lines in fact
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 133 Arc User

    I would like to see them actually bother to add the tooltips for Hunter/Warden/Ranger Feats when in Melee mode *back to the interface* before they change anything else in the paragon/feat system. They have done a great disservice to all Warden players by hiding the powers from the UI/Powers page.

    As was stated above, the third paragon/feat tree was removed before to 'simplify' configuration. I would rather they just leave it thus and fix all the other things that are broken before dreaming about it again.

    I agree with you that a lot of things have problems, and I support that as many of them are resolved before any big changes, I sincerely believe that if they choose to do something like what I suggested, it would be years of development, as they have the demands. of fresh content to keep too.

    About that third paragon that you mentioned has already been removed, I don't believe it was actually paragons, can anyone confirm if there were actually more than two paragons in each class, or are you talking about the old feats? I play from the M13 and from there to here, I only remember two paragons, and the 3 lines of feats for build
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    arazith07 said:

    greywynd said:

    They stripped out one paragon path from each class when they dumbed down the game. I don't see them ever adding them back.

    I believe you are thinking of feat trees, which they removed 2.5+ of. And most of those really were just false choices.
    Don't forget they also got rid of the Heroic feats (pre-paragon) ... also of which were generally full of false choices.

    Yea but the endless possibility/combinations of allotting points made each character unique.

    You seemed to miss the false choices part.
    Back in the day, the feats that you picked generally were exceedingly good/made the class, or feats you picked because it was the least bad of the options available.

    The point allocation thing also may as well have not mattered aside from having a good feeling of progression. Everyone would maximize a feat or put 0 points into it, with a very small set of exceptions (2-3 points in the CW's Nightmare Wizardry and 1 point into the Conqueror Guardian Fighter's Grit) that I can think of.
    those old choices, they could still be good, but one thing you talked about was the sense of progression that was really important.

  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    I like the general principle of what you're aiming at here, we could do with more solo-play goals outside of campaigns but my initial reservation is that it's complicated and would most likely take a ton of work and if I'm being totally honest, I'm not sure Cryptic in its current meta is capable of pulling it off without accidentally wrecking everything else.

    Perhaps a similar but simpler path would be for them to aim at specialisation within the current system where a few new powers are added but you have to choose & can only unlock a small number of them. That may bring back the interesting build specialisations that we lost when they removed the old system?

    For more of a challenge, they could link the obtaining of these skills to quests instead of just level (an old thing I miss from GW1).
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  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:



    I do think that your idea for the tanking and healing quests are going to run into problems with how tanking and healing were fundamentally redesigned in Mod 16.

    Namely, that tank and healer quests wouldn't be as much of a check of player skill, as it would be a check on how good the player's stats are and how cooperative the friendly AI is.

    I believe that even post M16 it would be possible to do quests with these types of tests, but in fact the AI would need to be worked very well for this to be possible, but these specific tests in quest could be done more easily, despite the need to update the game AI in the future
    rjc9000 said:

    I would just like to point out this wont work, since post Mod 16 NW loves to pretend it is a D&D game, but lacking any mechanical D&D substance to it apart from named references.

    If it actually included some of that mechanical substance into the subclass/gameplay, then you'd have something to work with.

    That's true, that's why I'd like to see more D&D elements in practice with choices in players' hands.
    rjc9000 said:

    ... However, that problem was solved by the adapted skills you suggested.

    The new powers suggested generally acknowledge that the subclass's new choice of weapon is mechanically different in function compared to the original class, such as the Whip Rogue's choice of weapon granted extra range/AoE radius on melee attacks, modified daily/encounter powers changing more towards bleed damage/building and consuming stacks of debuffs on enemies, or a new dodge flavored as using your whip like a grappling hook.

    Though I do think some of the changes you suggest are weird and have, such as Cloud of Steel getting a damage reduction (when it already is a weak At-will in terms of damage) or no changes Swift Footwork (are you really going to notice that extra 5% Stamina Regen when other class features are generally more powerful?), but those can be ironed out on a power by power basis.

    I think adaptive weapons can really be a solution, but I still think that option 1 with unique weapons for each paragon could really bring more attractiveness to the farm and builds issue, however for that it would be necessary to maybe take a step back as far as weapons are concerned, precisely to improve their visual and functional characteristics to better suit this possible system.

    As for the question of skills, in fact some things may sound extreme, maybe because I don't have such a deep knowledge of D&D. even so, this part of skills was written just to illustrate possibilities, as you mentioned, just work more focused on these skills to better suit the gameplay.

    Thank you very much for your collaboration, if you have any ideas that could improve this suggestion, please post here. even though I don't really believe that this can generate any practical results, I still hope that some Dev sees this with the affection that Neverwinter deserves.
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 133 Arc User

    rjc9000 said:

    arazith07 said:

    greywynd said:

    They stripped out one paragon path from each class when they dumbed down the game. I don't see them ever adding them back.

    I believe you are thinking of feat trees, which they removed 2.5+ of. And most of those really were just false choices.
    Don't forget they also got rid of the Heroic feats (pre-paragon) ... also of which were generally full of false choices.

    Yea but the endless possibility/combinations of allotting points made each character unique.

    You seemed to miss the false choices part.
    Back in the day, the feats that you picked generally were exceedingly good/made the class, or feats you picked because it was the least bad of the options available.

    The point allocation thing also may as well have not mattered aside from having a good feeling of progression. Everyone would maximize a feat or put 0 points into it, with a very small set of exceptions (2-3 points in the CW's Nightmare Wizardry and 1 point into the Conqueror Guardian Fighter's Grit) that I can think of.
    Not everyone maximized a feat, sometimes people would put various combos of points on various things. Also sometimes you couldn't max one and would run out of points before the prior ones were locked. Whether you think those points allocated were worth anything or not is another story, but each character was indeed kind of unique in build back then by virtue of the complex tree system and how it worked and how you could take bonuses from different trees and combine them into one character build, and not the oversimplified cookie-cutter thing we have now.
    Even though I miss the old feats tree and its possibilities, I like the current model a little, I just really think it's very simplified, the fact that there were no feates before the release of paragons is also a bit annoying, even though it stayed less bad with the leveling change.

    I would imagine if the current game feat system was improved, to go from T1 to T10 instead of the current T1 to T5. and adding a third line of options would help a little to better single out each player, as we would have 30 choices instead of 10.

    These feats changes could come along with the new paragons, since there is the proposal of adaptive base skills to paragons which would change a lot the existing dynamics of the feats.

    However we must remember that unfortunately, despite the current feat system not very simple, there are still irrelevant options in many classes, feats that even if you want a lot and tweaking your build around it, you can't make it work well and this is a real problem.

    In short my Neverwinter utopia, we would have:
    - 3 possible choices of Paragons.
    - Weapons unique for base class and for each paragon with specific synergies.
    - 3 lines of feat in each paragon with 10 feats in each line, totaling 30 feats.
    - Adaptive base skills based on your chosen paragon.
    - Removing Feats and class Features that are directly linked to a skill and adding generated situation options, making the build less crashed.

    oh! It's a new inventory in a new tab just for equipment and if possible separate the items that are part of a loadout, it would be very interesting for our builds hahaha

  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    I like the general principle of what you're aiming at here, we could do with more solo-play goals outside of campaigns but my initial reservation is that it's complicated and would most likely take a ton of work and if I'm being totally honest, I'm not sure Cryptic in its current meta is capable of pulling it off without accidentally wrecking everything else.

    Perhaps a similar but simpler path would be for them to aim at specialisation within the current system where a few new powers are added but you have to choose & can only unlock a small number of them. That may bring back the interesting build specialisations that we lost when they removed the old system?

    For more of a challenge, they could link the obtaining of these skills to quests instead of just level (an old thing I miss from GW1).

    I totally agree with you and that makes me very sad, that's why I started the post saying that this is a dream. Honestly speaking I believe they are capable of doing everything I mentioned, even if it takes years. The latest changes to the M19 mini healer rework, new mount system, M20 with new combat system and new companion system, and M21 with new class, leveling and campaign systems modification, showed a number of totally different things that can be done , even so, some bugs will always appear along with all of this. However, being able to do it and wanting to do it are totally different things. I think all these suggestions are unproductive from a business perspective, as much as there is room to add monetizations in some parts, the force needed to make this real is what shouldn't make it possible, and I very much regret all of this as Neverwinter was the MMORPG that I loved playing the most until today.

    Hope is the last one that dies after all, and I also know that a lot of what I suggested can be done in a more simplified way, which I don't like at all, I'm much more in favor of complete reconstructions of a system like the one in combat system, rather than an attempt at superficial improvement using the system that already exists, as this ends up prolonging some problems instead of solving them, besides limiting the possibility of real updates for the game in the long run.

    I keep dreaming because that's what I have left :)
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,766 Arc User


    you must be referring to the 3 lines of feat choices that existed until the M15, although I like to have several possibilities, I believe that many of the options were not very usual, and were not actually paragons. if i had a choice, i would take the current paragon organization with a cleaner version of the old feat lines. but this is already something for another topic who knows. my proposal is new paragon lines in fact

    Then let me simplify: don't expect them to add any complexity to the game after they've spent all this time ripping it out of the game.
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  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    greywynd said:


    you must be referring to the 3 lines of feat choices that existed until the M15, although I like to have several possibilities, I believe that many of the options were not very usual, and were not actually paragons. if i had a choice, i would take the current paragon organization with a cleaner version of the old feat lines. but this is already something for another topic who knows. my proposal is new paragon lines in fact

    Then let me simplify: don't expect them to add any complexity to the game after they've spent all this time ripping it out of the game.
    I don't really expect it, but as there were a lot of changes in the development team, which ended up bringing a lot of new and more complex things to the game, it gives me a slight hope for a distant future, maybe 4 to 5 years from now, but from fact I don't expect much more today.
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