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M21 Bard Feedback
sgrantdev
Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 81Cryptic Developer › Cryptic Developer
Greetings everyone and welcome to the show. As you know we have been working on the bard class and now is your chance to try it out before the final curtain falls.
We are looking for feedback on everything so please do not hold back any information. Please try to use this simple format for reporting so we can more easily parse the list and respond in kind.
Bug
While all of our classes play a bit differently the bard stands out due to its perform mechanic. Perform is activated using the TAB key, by default, and allows the bard to play a variety of songs that can enhance, heal, or hurt their targets.
Entering perform mode and executing songs expends the bards resource known as performance.
Songs are a new type of ability that generally can only be used during perform. I say generally because there are ways to execute these abilities without entering perform mode that you will discover as you play the class.
Each song is comprised of a series of notes. The series range from 4 to 7 notes in length and can be referenced in the power description when selected.
There are 8 notes in total and when in perform mode they are mapped to the 1 - 8 keys. When a songs pattern has been entered correctly the corresponding ability will execute and perform mode will end. This method of song casting is referred to as manual play.
While in perform mode the bard has access to 2 new ability slots. The first slot is known as a pin slot. Each song’s note pattern can be seen in the power window. This pattern can also be optionally pinned to the top of the perform UI for easy reference. up to 4 songs can be pinned at a time.
The second new slot is known as a quick play slot. This slot allows the bard to execute a slotted song without having to input that song's pattern. While convenient quick play slots are limited and in various cases some of the bard’s feats and class features require that a song not be slotted and be played manually in order to receive their benefits.
Bard paragon paths are the songblade and the minstrel. The songblade serves in a DPS role and focuses on supplementing the groups power while performing visually stylish moves. The minstrel is a healer who sings ballads that can heal, cleanse, and even make their allies more durable.
One last thing to note. A bard would not be a bard if they were not able to spend their leisure time crafting tunes about their exploits. When out of combat a new mode called free perform can be accessed by holding down the TAB key. In this mode the bard not only has access to the 8 base notes but octaves and accidentals.
So take some time to relax after a day of adventuring and sing a song or two while enjoying a mug of fine ale in Yawning Portal. I look forward to hearing what you all come up with.
Silius
We are looking for feedback on everything so please do not hold back any information. Please try to use this simple format for reporting so we can more easily parse the list and respond in kind.
Bug
- Bug 1
- Bug 2
- Feedback 1
- Feedback 2
- Question 1
- Question 2
While all of our classes play a bit differently the bard stands out due to its perform mechanic. Perform is activated using the TAB key, by default, and allows the bard to play a variety of songs that can enhance, heal, or hurt their targets.
Entering perform mode and executing songs expends the bards resource known as performance.
Songs are a new type of ability that generally can only be used during perform. I say generally because there are ways to execute these abilities without entering perform mode that you will discover as you play the class.
Each song is comprised of a series of notes. The series range from 4 to 7 notes in length and can be referenced in the power description when selected.
There are 8 notes in total and when in perform mode they are mapped to the 1 - 8 keys. When a songs pattern has been entered correctly the corresponding ability will execute and perform mode will end. This method of song casting is referred to as manual play.
While in perform mode the bard has access to 2 new ability slots. The first slot is known as a pin slot. Each song’s note pattern can be seen in the power window. This pattern can also be optionally pinned to the top of the perform UI for easy reference. up to 4 songs can be pinned at a time.
The second new slot is known as a quick play slot. This slot allows the bard to execute a slotted song without having to input that song's pattern. While convenient quick play slots are limited and in various cases some of the bard’s feats and class features require that a song not be slotted and be played manually in order to receive their benefits.
Bard paragon paths are the songblade and the minstrel. The songblade serves in a DPS role and focuses on supplementing the groups power while performing visually stylish moves. The minstrel is a healer who sings ballads that can heal, cleanse, and even make their allies more durable.
One last thing to note. A bard would not be a bard if they were not able to spend their leisure time crafting tunes about their exploits. When out of combat a new mode called free perform can be accessed by holding down the TAB key. In this mode the bard not only has access to the 8 base notes but octaves and accidentals.
So take some time to relax after a day of adventuring and sing a song or two while enjoying a mug of fine ale in Yawning Portal. I look forward to hearing what you all come up with.
Silius
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Comments
Performance Mode, out of Combat General playing - 4 Flat ( 4 and the Down Cursor Key) produces no sound at all
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The Songs, particularly those that require full Manual input have considerable and lengthy effects that merit their "complexity".
I say "complexity" since, outside of memorizing the inputs; which I have already done so for a few in a short time; the overall input time is on par and honestly in some cases, less than the Cast time for Encounters of several other classes.
I will also remind that there are to this day, people who cannot play Warlock because it is too "complex" for them.
Not every Class is for every person and that's okay. No-one is forcing anyone to play Bard if they don't feel the class mechanics.
I am btw, terrible with using a K&M and there are so many players who will have input speed and dexterity far greater than mine.
None of the F flats make any noise, regardless of octave.
Same bug as reported by ennileah:
Also bear in mind that console users tend to sit further away from their screens so fiddly detailed things are harder to see or deal with.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
- There does not seem to be any craftable gear for the Bard class in the workshop in any profession (aside from generic things like potions). Also neither the wonderous bazar nor the celestial coins vendors have any Bard gear. I am hoping gear is coming for these sources for the bard? (They are all a great source of transmutes for the other classes, hopefully they will be for the bard too eventually).
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
- only leveled up a bit, and may be it was just lag, but the Bards animations feel unfinished and the character seem to freeze in position sometimes.
- please keep the "manual played songs" to the campfire or taverns, i see no good reason for complicating the combat game play through this, considering you're cutting away content at every damn corner through out the whole game. just keep it simple, Tab -> song plays -> the end.
- i hope the quests with additional bags as reward have been moved from the "vaulted" areas to the ones still in game.
Question: What archetype of damage is the Bard's damage, baseline? I understand there's songs to change that damage type, but what's the main, unaltered damage type for the sake of knowing what ability scores to tweak with? Some things say physical, some say psychic, I'm just unsure which ability scores would help the bard more besides Charisma.
- Animations still need some work to make it more smooth, it's still too rought and it constantly freezes in some positions.
- In performance mode, we're still able to see the life bar and I think would be great if we could see the stamina's bar as well, since we still can dodge even in this mode.
- And about Songblade's forte, I am worried, crit severity is not useful at all. It's already hard enough to cap out some stats with a decent forte, iam just asking please, thing more carefully about this.
Thats all i have for now.
Other things that need a smoother transition:
- Upon entering performance mode, there is a slight delay until you are able to play a note or use a hotkeyed song. Often I missed the first note which led to the song not activating.
- After playing a song, there's a delay until you can use your normal set of powers again. Often you have to specifically use an movement key before you're able to animation cancel.
- You can't animation cancel performance mode (probably intended)
- Holding the At-Will "Reprise" and releasing the mouse button leads to being stuck in place. You can use other abilities, but not move. The stuck duration differs based on at what point during the animation you are releasing the mouse button, but can last up to a second. Sometimes the attack slowly continues to play while stuck. You can use Quickstep to break out of the stuck state.
- The Encounter Dancing Lights often applies it's damage 1-2 second after the initial 0.8 second cast time.
- The Encounter Lunge often applies it's damage a split second after the lunge was completed. It's not much, but noticeable knowing Lunge abilities from other classes.
2, During the bard's sword combo, when it comes to the end there is a portion in which the animation stops for a second before returning to neutral.
3, sometimes animations just don't play at all. When using the Daily power in the training plane, there was just a flash of light and the foe died, but the character didn't move or strike a pose or anything. Just a Flash.
I too wish to be recreated, and to be loved long after my death.
I too wish to be recreated, and to be loved long after my death.
- At Will "Reprise" when you stop using it, the character stands in a odd position for a few seconds.
- In general the transitions between one animation and another are very abrupt, i believe making this flow more fluid will take away the overall feeling of being "stuck" (not sure if this is the correct term) as the songsblade path seems to have the best mobility in the game so far, but as it is now, it just gives us a feeling of being stuck to the ground.
Bugs:
- Bug 1: The encounter power Contre (?) displays the name says "A Due", which might confuse people with the similarly named feat.
- Bug 2:
- Bug 3: When using Performer and Flourish, you can get "Improvised Flourish", but Flourish does not get a free use and will remain on cooldown.
_________Ballad of the Witch seems to have a display bug where the damage of the power is half of that of Ballad of the Hero. This is contrary to the damage I observe in game, where Ballad of the Witch deals roughy the same damage as Ballad of the Hero, but Witch uses magic damage (Int) and Hero uses physical damage (Str).Edit: Nevermind, not a bug, the tooltip is correct and Ballad of the Witch is intended for use on AoE situations since the procs can trigger on multiple targets, while Ballad of the Hero only works on one.
Feedback:- General Feedback 1: General Thoughts: I find the Bard class is amusing and requires (some) effort to get results, which is a step above other classes. Very well done.
- General Feedback 2: Please state the "random chance" or "reduced damage penalties" or "bonus (x)" percentages for feats, powers, and passives, hiding the chance doesn't do any good for players. I can find out that Performer's inspirational attacks penalty is 50% by doing math/opening the combatlog, but it would be much easier to just state the bonus given.
- Feedback 3: Performance as a resource in long fights:
- Feedback 3: Con Fuco: Could the dev team lower the cast time for this power?
- Feedback 4:Staccato: Could the dev team lower the cast time for hits one/two/three/four down to 0.2/0.35/0.35/0.35 seconds?
- Feedback 5: Contre (Encounter): Can the dev team add notches or a visual effect to see how long the player has been charging it for?
- Feedback 6: Voice Throw: I find this feat to be serviceable, but somewhat underwhelming as a pick. Both Backup Performer and Throw Voice emphasize the bard's versatility by helping out either the tank or healer roles. I find Backup Performer to be the more valuable of the two since it gives some passive heals, doesn't override a song such as Steel March or Blazing Flamenco, and grants healers emergency resources.
- Feedback 7: Elemental Medley: I find this feat to be very weak, when paired against its competition of Battlefield Ostinato. Elemental Medley seems to be intended for a support/DPS type spec where the player constantly swaps between Steel March/Tailwind Mambo/Blazing Flamenco to support their team and Elemental Medley seems to compliment that. However, Performance basically does not regenerate for a whole minute. Not to mention that Elemental Medley's boost of 30 magnitude per second is somewhat weak for the effort required and when compared to the 20% damage buff that Battlefield Ostinato gives.
- Feedback 8: Ballada Colla Voce: I get that A Due is if you want more reliable buffs/support and Ballada Colla Voce is for people planning to go for the Ballad of the Hero/Witch route, but I find this feat to be somewhat weak due to the relatively slow Performance regen of Songblade. Hopefully, improvements to Performance generation should make this feat feel better.
- Feedback 9: Performer and Loremaster: Please please please add paragraphs/more spaces to these descriptions and/or list/bold the effects of each proc. It is very confusing to read these feats.
- Feedback 10: Ballad of the Hero Finisher: It uses the animation and sound of Anvil of Doom, which is very satisfying. However, could the dev team change the animation and impact noise to that of smashing an enemy with the Bard's Lute? It would be very amusing and flavorful to the Bard class.
- Feedback 11: Bard's ability scores: the Bard is a perplexing blend of melee (Steel March, Ballad of the Hero, most of the swordsman encounters) and magic (everything else), but the Bard starts off with good STR (~15 if I recall) and poor INT (8). While ability scores only end up making a +-2% difference at the end of the day, I would suggest starting Bard at equal STR/INT to let the player decide what damage types they want to do, such as mixing/focus on physical/focus on magic/etc.
_____From what I found in long fights, there is no way to generate more Performance on the DPS side, your only option is to let the 3 Performance per every 3 seconds (?) generation rate work in the background.
This is a perplexing problem because the Songblade seems to want players to sing different songs to react to situations, but lacks the ability to quickly recover Performance. The only option the player has to generate more Performance/reduce Performance costs is the Musician's Flow passive, which makes it a near mandatory passive to use by default.
Since the Bard is about flashy, performance based combat, I'd suggest allowing the Songblade to restore Performance by default through the following:
1 Performance per Stamina consumed while blocking with Contre.
3 Performance for using a non Inspirational encounter power
10 Performance for using Flourish
5 Performance for successfully playing a song with the notes
10 Performance for landing the Hero's/Witch's Finale on targets
I'd also suggest making Musician's Flow a guaranteed proc with an internal cooldown, such as guaranteed proc once every 15 seconds, rather than a random chance proc on every song.
I'd also suggest allowing Advancing Parry to restore 3 Performance every time you dodge and/or Deflect an attack.
While the animations are amusing, I find that the basic Reprise at-will is much more potent for AoE clears due to its faster swing speed and ability to spam more magnitude procs from songs.
From what I'm looking at, the Fleche At-will is a generic high damage ranged at-will for more castery bards, and Staccato is supposed to be used to spam procs from the various songs such as Ballad of the Hero's/Witch's 100 magnitude procs. However, Fleche casts at the same rate, if not faster than 2nd/3rd/4th hits of Staccato (0.6/0.8/0.8 for hits 1/2/3 of Fleche versus 0.3/0.8/0.8/0.8 for Staccato by my checking).
So why would I pick Staccato if Fleche casts faster/the same rate, is a ranged attack (meaning I don't need to get close to enemies), and Fleche seems to deal 3x as much damage? By speeding up the Staccato At-will, you make it a stronger choice for fishing for for procs on Staccato, while leaving the higher damage Fleche for players who don't plan to use Ballad of the Hero/Witch.
Something similar to the 25/50/75 notches on the Fighter's Vengeance meter, or the sparkling effects on the Barbarian Sentinel's charged up Sentinel Slash.
Whereas Voice Throw, while helpful, is only good for tanks struggling with aggro. This only occurs in the first 10 seconds of combat (unless the tank doesn't know which powers to use for aggro) or if the tank dies (which usually results in the tank using a hard taunt).
I'd suggest letting Voice Throw refill a tank's Stamina by 15/grant 5% damage reduction for 10 seconds in addition to its usual effect of extra aggro generation.
I would suggest allowing Elemental Medley to reduce the cost of using Blazing Flamenco/Steel March/Tailwind Mambo by 25 Performance, and grant a stacking 2.5% damage buff per stack of Elemental Medley. The reduction to Performance just gives enough leeway for the Bard to have enough Performance to have another song ready to use and the damage buff grants a further incentive to swap between songs.
Questions:
I found myself enjoying Bard *because* it is a class whose mechanics/feats/passives/powers distinctly affect how you play, which is more than I can say for most other class mechanics in PvE.
Most of the pre-existing classes have a problem of their powers all doing the same thing, but their only distinction being some slight alterations to damage, cooldowns, or a CC effect. Most classes' feats/passives that are about adding more numbers to your pre-existing your abilities or about picking the least bad out of all the existing options, rather than adding *distinction* to playing the class.
I think many people would enjoy the other classes if they had the same amount of mechanics as Bard.
- A-sharp (6 sharp) should be the same pitch as B flat (7-flat), but it isn't.
- B-flat is playing as A, not A-sharp. B-flat shouldn't sound like A-natural.
- A-sharp does not play on the upper octave at all.
Comment/SuggestionGrab a piano (and someone who knows which keys are which notes
The notes we should be able to play are
Currently, you can play a few notes of a ballad/song, stop Performing, and you can finish the song at a later time. However, if you wait too long, then notes will disappear and you need to re-play the entire song from the beginning. How long do these notes remain played before the player must re-input the entire song from the beginning?
Same question as above, basically, but for when the player is out of combat.
- The feat "Backup Performer" is impossible to utilize in combat because you can only enter perform mode with 100 performance. Since it does not cancel other songs the order of play would be an Elemental Song followed by Reinvigorating Carol. With the max of 150 performance it could be possible, but you cannot enter performance mode again after playing the first song although you still have 50 performance for Reinvigorating Carol.
> The most obvious case is holding the At-Will Reprise. You cannot animation cancel at that point.
>
> Other things that need a smoother transition:
>
> - Upon entering performance mode, there is a slight delay until you are able to play a note or use a hotkeyed song. Often I missed the first note which led to the song not activating.
> - After playing a song, there's a delay until you can use your normal set of powers again. Often you have to specifically use an movement key before you're able to animation cancel.
> - You can't animation cancel performance mode (probably intended)
> - Holding the At-Will "Reprise" and releasing the mouse button leads to being stuck in place. You can use other abilities, but not move. The stuck duration differs based on at what point during the animation you are releasing the mouse button, but can last up to a second. Sometimes the attack slowly continues to play while stuck. You can use Quickstep to break out of the stuck state.
> - The Encounter Dancing Lights often applies it's damage 1-2 second after the initial 0.8 second cast time.
> - The Encounter Lunge often applies it's damage a split second after the lunge was completed. It's not much, but noticeable knowing Lunge abilities from other classes.
Just came back from Icespire Peak and fighting the last boss in Frozen Heart I could hardly dodge any AoE attack because Quickstep would not activate properly. Not that it mattered, but it was evident that the Bard is way more unresponsive when it comes to animation cancelling. Usually you can cancel any cast at any time.
Quickstep itself has a slight delay and at least the animation plays a split second after the keyboard was pressed. The Bard in this state will be unplayable or at least very annoying to manage in endgame content.
I am honestly asking. Was this class created with the console players in mind? The reason for this question is that i saw that most powers have no target, just press a buttom and hope ppl is close enough.
Feedback:
In the support path i trully feel that needing to stop, tab, put the song manually (to get the better result), tab again and repeat it's way dangerous.
This is a fast paced game. Unless using a macro in a gamer mouse or a controller, this is a class not very pc friendly (for the average player). Most dungeons/trials requires you to move a lot, and as a healer you need to move a lot more and keep an eye on everyone and the surroundings.
Just imagine, ppl is low and you Tab to start pressing numbers, but you are rushed because they can die any moment so you screw it in the manual imput, and before try again you need to move away asap cuz mechanic or red floor.. A party member is going to die. Boreworm that is a healer check it's a hell of falling rocks, aoe dmg and robots that may and will cancel your performance. Tong has the stun that can only be cleanse from the hud but not from the toon. TOMM? Zariel? This is a game where most dungeons requires your party to move around A LOT, and having a toon that FORCE you to stop and make a manual input to get the better results at the risk of getting killed or a party wipe it's not a good match for the meta.
And from the "aestetic" view, let's be honest. One thing is going "6 8 6 6 8 6" and another is going "686686!!!!!!".. This will only HAMSTER most ppl making them turn off the sound effect.
My suggestion it's, change the "manual input" for "put this song in 1, then press 1 to play it", making the song play the numbers it requires in a "fluent" way so it sounds melodic (make it a cast that take like 1-2 seconds).
You could change it to play it automatic as pasives (some powers already have the duration to be considered pasives imo).
The class has potential, kinda reminds me of a cleric pre mod 16 mixed with a little warlock flavor. But the support path doesn't feel pc friendly.
Soulweaver: The Lovely Red
Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour
- Likely not a bug as such (see feedback): Opening transmute packs for bards results in "[Error] You already have all the items in this package" Assuming it's because they don't exist, yet.
Feedback
- Bard transmutes, specifically weapons are lacking across existing formats. Likely that you're well aware and working on but wanted to say just incase.
- e.g. Existing packs such as, elemental, ensorcelled, gloomwrought. I ran my bard through elemental evil campaign to check the weapon transmute pack that's reward at completion and it's the same
- On the Undermountain quest "A Revenant's Arrangement" you cannot play any notes while transformed. Only songs on a quick slot seem to work.
Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
The following feedback is for the Minstrel Paragon.
Bugs:
Feedback:
The HoTs (Heal over time) from Rejuvinating Carol should stack like healing word when used by 2 different clerics.
However the damage buffs granted by Blaze Flamenco, Tailwind Mambo and Steel March, should not stack.
[Combat (Self)]You must wait longer after playing a song
This should be removed as it prevents you from being able to use any other powers, and I have been unable to heal people due to this delay. Other healers have a cooldown between casting the same skill, however you can use other powers during this period.
I would like to see there be no delay between playing a song to using another power, and then putting a small 1-2 second cooldown on that song preventing it from being played again quickly, to make it in-line with the other healers.
Another idea would be to change the functionality to grant 200 performance over 10 seconds with a shorter (2 seconds) channeling / cast speed, making it closer to how the other healers mana regeneration powers work.
- Feedback: Dancing Lights: Can you guys change the name of Dancing Lights to Vicious Mockery?
Feedback: MinstrelVicious Mockery is a flavorful and well loved cantrip (well, cantrip in 5e) given to Bard in D&D.
While Dancing Lights is an encounter and not an at-will (at-wills would be a better synonym for cantrips, which can be used infinitely), Dancing Light's effect is a rough approximate for Vicious Mockery, a spell that deals (small) damage and makes enemies have a harder time killing your allies.
This isn't essential to change, but might be a good way to better tie in the Bard promotionally with the D&D license.
Note: I am not *as* experienced in healing in general when compared to others, so you may take my opinions with some salt. But I wanted to give my impressions based off what I noticed/saw.
As a Minstrel, you will have one of your slots locked to Arpeggio for its healing, leaving only one slot available to damage things.
If you want to deal single target damage you pick Fleche.
If you want to deal AoE damage. Reprise also hits multiple enemies and has better magnitude per second [35*4/(0.25+0.4+0.35+0.74)]= 80.4 MPS for Reprise versus 70/1=70 MPS for Phantasmal Concerto).
I also don't find the ability to attack and move to be a benefit on Concerto.
If you plan on moving around, you are either trying to run to deal with a mechanic (you shouldn't be slowing down to get a bit of cheeky chip damage in), you are moving between packs of mobs (everything is dead and you have no need to concerto), or are trying to dodge (which means you want to take the Quickstep tactical power and not attack things). The only thing I found Concerto to be good for is for its wider area of effect, which makes it better than Reprise if you can hit more than 4 targets (245 MPS on Reprise versus 70 MPS on Concerto).
I would suggest making Phantasmal Concerto have some other special effect besides being able to attack and move, such as lowering the magnitude of concerto to 50, but cause targets hit by Concerto to suffer a damage increasing debuff (I'd suggest +1% incoming damage per hit of Concerto, maximum 5 stacks, duration per stack 5 seconds).
There are other feats that allow players to play want players to play chip damage healer, but the problem is that it costs resources in a game about specialization and in a role that is all about resource conservation.
Why should you waste the equivalent of 1 song's worth of resources (40 magnitude * 3 =120 Performance) for some extra chip damage on a spec that isn't going to be optimized for dealing damage?
If your team is struggling to kill things, you will need the extra resources to keep them alive, not waste on some slight chip damage.
If your chip damage makes difference in fights such as for DPS checks, that means that your team needs to work on doing the mechanics, not that playing chip damage healer is valuable.
If your team can afford to have you screw around with the attack, your team kills things so quickly that your chip damage is redundant to begin with.
I would suggest improving Art of War by have the Improved Dancing Lights effect increase the -outgoing damage debuff to 10%, such that it serves a distinct purpose in the Minstrel's kit as a something to prepare against big hits/tank checks. I would also lower the bonus damage and resource costs accordingly, such as reducing the bonus damage on the final hit of Fleche to 75 and reducing the Dancing Lights Enhanced effect to 250 magnitude, but lower the resource cost of the final hit of Dancing Lights to 20 Performance per finishing hit.