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New Combat System Allows for Wonderful Possibilities (PVP)
fuxion
Member Posts: 311 Arc User
To Chris, Ridi & the Team
I was present on the stream when the roadmap for Neverwinter and all the upcoming changes at the time was discussed.
at that time Chris stated that PVP wont get attention just yet and it was accepted with some sadness but not unexpected.
So before i lay out my request i want to compliment the team on the new combat system that has been introduced, it allows variety and unique character builds and the class balancing seem to be better than ever .. i think Rogue needs abit of a rework but the rest seem pretty good so big big thanks !
The new combat system has also led me to put forward this request because with the scaling/balancing that takes place when players enter pvp and does allow alot more of the player base to compete in pvp i believe it has opened up wonderful opportunities for player vs player combat.
I am still of the opinion that the Neverwinter Combat System at its core is still one of the best high action combat systems out there as i have tried many such as Tera , Elder scrolls etc ...
Would you consider to dedicate one whole mod to PVP ??
I think the game and the PVP Engine deserves a revamp now that the crappy history of class balancing has been improved in a major way.
I have spoken to many players and they feel pve content can become boring rather quickly after a new module is released and the initial hype slows down after the first few weeks and they were asking what could be done to keep them playing daily without just grinding rng for days ...something to break the sometimes very tedious, repetitive and often gruesome process.
There is an agreement that PVP is never boring cause each match and team grouping is completely different with solo domination.
Its almost like a game of pool where the orientation of the balls are completely different after each break and strategies and gear setups have to be adjusted quickly ....where vs PVE its the same mechanisms and once you know them there's nothing that stimulates the brain and creative.
Yes there are some matchmaking that does sometimes not allow for a fair balanced match because for example and specifically with the MOD20 clerics are very powerful in terms of heals in PVP and hard to kill so when 1 team has a cleric and the other does not its normally a GG and sometimes a team will be allocate with 2 cleric and opposite team none which is hard to understand but im sure to improve the matchmaking would not be so hard cause it is the one huge issue in the Solo queue PVP system atm.
Theres has been alot of players that have become interested in PVP now tht even though they are not geared to the teeth they can compete if the correct gear setup and playstyle is applied which wasn't possible in the past.
Alot of players have stated that if there is a Duo-Queue where you can at least queue with at least 1 x friend it will definitely make them PVP alot more.
There have been suggestions for a 3v3 Solo and premade Queue
Also a nice suggestion was for a monthly Epic Tournament in a Ancient underground temple in the Jungles of Chult where special rewards can be won by teams (many battle options suggested like 1v1 and Team Setups/Entries
Also a Guild based tournament where Guilds can earn Stronghold and personal rewards from Guild vs Guild battles (can also be done in some epic arena and even allow other players and guild members to watch the match in progress
Theres just so much that is possible and i think a PVP System revamp could draw in a a lot of new players to this game we all love.
There has also been concern that the off-season is too long and that most of the PVP Player base would love to have some sort of PVP competition/reward going on for all those that basically just want to PVP and nothing else.
There was a lot of toxicity in the past but i feel it has subsided a lot from years past even though one will always have the few that will always create some frictions and because the Gamemaster does all reporting of offensive and toxic language as well as malicious and disrespectful play serious and have banned certain players for ignoring warnings a lot has improved ...abit of healthy banter is good and people shouldn't be too sensitive and take things to seriously.
So myself and a lot of players feel there is so much potential to create various ways which players can play vs players to earn game rewards and change things up to strategize and huddle before battles in order to come out on top etc ..instead of from just normal predictable PVE RNG.
I really hope that something like this will be considered rather sooner than later.
Thanks for all the hard work to date !
I was present on the stream when the roadmap for Neverwinter and all the upcoming changes at the time was discussed.
at that time Chris stated that PVP wont get attention just yet and it was accepted with some sadness but not unexpected.
So before i lay out my request i want to compliment the team on the new combat system that has been introduced, it allows variety and unique character builds and the class balancing seem to be better than ever .. i think Rogue needs abit of a rework but the rest seem pretty good so big big thanks !
The new combat system has also led me to put forward this request because with the scaling/balancing that takes place when players enter pvp and does allow alot more of the player base to compete in pvp i believe it has opened up wonderful opportunities for player vs player combat.
I am still of the opinion that the Neverwinter Combat System at its core is still one of the best high action combat systems out there as i have tried many such as Tera , Elder scrolls etc ...
Would you consider to dedicate one whole mod to PVP ??
I think the game and the PVP Engine deserves a revamp now that the crappy history of class balancing has been improved in a major way.
I have spoken to many players and they feel pve content can become boring rather quickly after a new module is released and the initial hype slows down after the first few weeks and they were asking what could be done to keep them playing daily without just grinding rng for days ...something to break the sometimes very tedious, repetitive and often gruesome process.
There is an agreement that PVP is never boring cause each match and team grouping is completely different with solo domination.
Its almost like a game of pool where the orientation of the balls are completely different after each break and strategies and gear setups have to be adjusted quickly ....where vs PVE its the same mechanisms and once you know them there's nothing that stimulates the brain and creative.
Yes there are some matchmaking that does sometimes not allow for a fair balanced match because for example and specifically with the MOD20 clerics are very powerful in terms of heals in PVP and hard to kill so when 1 team has a cleric and the other does not its normally a GG and sometimes a team will be allocate with 2 cleric and opposite team none which is hard to understand but im sure to improve the matchmaking would not be so hard cause it is the one huge issue in the Solo queue PVP system atm.
Theres has been alot of players that have become interested in PVP now tht even though they are not geared to the teeth they can compete if the correct gear setup and playstyle is applied which wasn't possible in the past.
Alot of players have stated that if there is a Duo-Queue where you can at least queue with at least 1 x friend it will definitely make them PVP alot more.
There have been suggestions for a 3v3 Solo and premade Queue
Also a nice suggestion was for a monthly Epic Tournament in a Ancient underground temple in the Jungles of Chult where special rewards can be won by teams (many battle options suggested like 1v1 and Team Setups/Entries
Also a Guild based tournament where Guilds can earn Stronghold and personal rewards from Guild vs Guild battles (can also be done in some epic arena and even allow other players and guild members to watch the match in progress
Theres just so much that is possible and i think a PVP System revamp could draw in a a lot of new players to this game we all love.
There has also been concern that the off-season is too long and that most of the PVP Player base would love to have some sort of PVP competition/reward going on for all those that basically just want to PVP and nothing else.
There was a lot of toxicity in the past but i feel it has subsided a lot from years past even though one will always have the few that will always create some frictions and because the Gamemaster does all reporting of offensive and toxic language as well as malicious and disrespectful play serious and have banned certain players for ignoring warnings a lot has improved ...abit of healthy banter is good and people shouldn't be too sensitive and take things to seriously.
So myself and a lot of players feel there is so much potential to create various ways which players can play vs players to earn game rewards and change things up to strategize and huddle before battles in order to come out on top etc ..instead of from just normal predictable PVE RNG.
I really hope that something like this will be considered rather sooner than later.
Thanks for all the hard work to date !
3
Comments
This is to be expected in this game, anytime there is a major rework like mod 20 has done, it takes a couple mods for balance to get back to normal.
This mod is a little bit more friendly to undergeared players than the previous one, but we actually lost more players than we gained. This mod is widely perceived as being less fun than the previous mod.
This system does have some areas of potential the devs could use to turn this mod into a decent mod. They started on that with the recent shadowclad fix that made elven battle the main enchantment. But this combat rework was unnecessary and wasn't really worth it.
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In mod 19, the top classes were ranger, rogue, warlock, and fighter. Barbarian hard to say exactly where it places but it was competitive for sure. DPS DC was also competitive though had a higher difficulty curve to do well on it towards the end of mod 19. These classes all had remarkably small gaps inbetween their performances when it came to winning matches. The only 2 weak classes were wizard and paladin. Healers weren't competitive when it came to personal score on leaderboard, but were still strong.
In mod 20, the gaps between classes' performance at winning matches is significantly wider than it was in mod 19. Right now, the top class is fighter beyond any shadow of a doubt. Followed by ranger, wizard, and warlock, these 3 are overall pretty close together in performance. Though 2 of these classes, ranger and wizard, probably will fall back down later in the mod, they are partially reliant on temporary things that are likely to be nerfed/fixed. Warlock and fighter will remain the best until they either get direct class nerfs or the PVP meta changes significantly. DPS cleric's placement is currently unknown. Rogue and barbarian this mod are both significantly weaker than those first 4 classes I mentioned, to point where they might not be competitive anymore; the best case scenario is rogue and barbarian are competitive but the difficulty curve for them is unreasonably high compared to the first 4 classes. Healers are OP in general, but cleric healer is noticeably more powerful than the other 2, the gap between warlock healer and cleric healer is getting wider and wider as time goes on and paladin in general still sucks.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Lets start at the truth - You didn't PVP alot with new Mod because you have not found a good build for your Rogue ...and yes Rogue now not as strong and overpowering as previously BUT i agree Rogue needs rework ill give you that.
Regarding your statement (which is completely wrong) there's only 1 Fighter that is really doing well and that is Brutal on his main Fighter which he has played from Mod 5. the rest and most of Fighters are dying like flies.
brutal can kill most players on his weak alts , he is a good player . dont look at one player and skin the rest !
I have seen Control Wizards that wreck 98% of Fighters without them even getting close to them ...top prove what i say go look how little fighters end up on leader board and of the first 100 fighters - Look at their kill death ration only top 3 or 4 have good ratio the rest seem like they are weak paladins not fighters .
The issue here comes from you because you are a TR and tespecially asassin is under perfroming. Wk seemed weak at first but now i have seen some kill 99% of Fighters in 1 Rotation with a well planned and executed rotation on their Wisperknife Rogue. Some Rogues like Quilla can kill almost any class with his Whisperknife Rogue as well.
I do feel very strong that especially Assasin Rogue needs a rework - They should change wk and asssasin - assasin needs more bUrst damage for sure ! sdo yeah i hope they do a revisit and adjust Rogue to be on par
The rest are better (not perfectly) balanced .. im not considering the mount powers im just talking raw ability.
Cleric Sanje which is Cleric Arbiter and heal spec depending can kill 99.5% of Fighters with ease 1v1 , same goes for Pipini a SW who can do same and racks up more kills each game than most almost any Fighter
So ur conclusions are completely wrong.
I have seen cw who cannot be killed by Fighters cause they are running full CC control build which is fantastic cause tht is what a CW should do is control.
Rangers are very strong and can kill more and faster than any class atm especially if grouped with dc and played well for sure.
Anyway ill leave it there for now and remind you that class balancing will never perfect but the core message was to request that PVP be revamped in Neverwinter... i think its very long overdue ..if u wanna wait for perfect class balance youll wait forever
I have spoken to many players and they stated that if the rewards are on par with dungeons they will rather pvp any day cause they get bored of pve... and then the issues around matchmaking and off season period being too long was the other major concerns
What im asking here is for a Mod to be dedicated to PVP.
Class balancing should continue and is always a ongoing process and as alot changes at times which can benefit certain classes more at the time.
If you look at which players for wizard, ranger, warlock, and fighter kept making it to first page on PC, you'll notice how many of them aren't particularly good players. If you watched which classes spent time on page 1 consistently, these 4 classes were much more stable than anything else. The only rogues that made it are the best ones around, and 2 of those didn't keep playing, they just stopped playing to keep their rewards once they got a lucky roll of the dice, you'll also notice how all 3 of those are assassins.
There basically are no skilled fighters on PC, the closest we have is brutal right now. Most of them aren't built right or just plain bad, and even the bad ones were getting page 1 and 2 easily. The moment we got a remotely good one, he plowed ahead of everyone else regardless of their skill. Notice how abnormal brutal's K/D on that fighter is too, 1396 kills/24 deaths isn't normal.
If you look at Xbox, their good fighter literally got 88 wins/38 losses. That ratio for that many games played is insane, he isn't that different from brutal.
If you look at what fighters are capable of doing compared to other classes, it is even more clear they are OP.
They have some of the highest DPS and base damage with very little tradeoff for it, they have the best sustain (sustain is the most impactful variable for winning matches right now), great cc (much of which isn't dodgable), low cooldowns, the ability to heal themselves via class powers, can apply pressure from both range and melee, and are really tanky when built right while still being able to kill well.
They can team up with other dps classes to be the most effective combo around, nothing beats a fighter + other DPS class duo at clearing enemies efficiently. They are also excellent at carrying momentum on the team.
WK isn't better than assassin, its actually the other way around in a majority of games this season. You are looking at raw damage per rotation, not who is better for winning more matches overall.
There were a few small parts of that post that were correct:
- Rangers do kill at a really high rate. Pipini is a good SW who kills/outkills most fighters we have (though this is a HAMSTER metric given the severe difference in skill and build). El sanjo is a really good DPS cleric and dps cleric is still strong (I am not sure exactly how strong this mod but strong). Wizard can make themselves tanky enough that even a fighter would have trouble killing them (that doesn't mean fighter isn't OP).
- Rogue does need some work done on it and we both seem to agree it is behind many other classes, but its not specifically assassin that needs that work, its rogue in general. They either need better sustain or much higher dps than they have.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
... you know i play Rogue . HR , Barb , Fighter and Cleric so i have a good overview of classes .. you only really play rogue competitively right ?
The fact is Fighter might be good in 1v1s but most classes can be setup so tht 99.9% of Fighters wont be able to kill them and you are correct when saying CWs especially can be extremely tanky and unkillable .. which is the way i feel CWs should be setup for PVP cause they should be able to survive instead of being glass canons and help control the nodes.
In my opinion , Cleric and CW and now ive seen OPs being setup in a such away tht they can swing a match 180% if for example you have two teams and none a have a Cleric or CW and a player have disconnected (Got kicked) and a Cleric or CW or OP enters the team who get the replacement takes a matter of minutes sometimes seconds even if they a far behind to gain the upper hand and win the match ... Clerics and Control Wizards have the best capabilities to do this as i have seen this happen over and over alot more than any fighter would be able to do.
Not many players play fighters cause you have to play them very well these days with their shield not being to survive in most cases through a whole rotation of an attack ...the stamina(shield) depletes from one encounter normally and once the shield is down fighters are killed very fast if they aren't extremely tanky , thts why 99% of them have a very bad kill/death ratio
Fighter shield is almost useless in PVP and they have no other defense mechanic like a teleport or dodge roll out of harms way.
Brutal is the best Fighter in the game BUT is currently playing his HR ... HRs have the ability to kill any class where this capability does exist for fighter.
Fighter is NOT the strongest class overall atm and the leaderboard and alot of other proof and statistics will confirm that !
With Shadowclad nerf fighters are now alot more vulnerable and alot weaker than before ;; go see and test for yourself
If they are played really well and are geared to the max they can be strong but in general and compared to other classes in amid-level range fighters are very weak...really only at BIS or close to BIS tht they perform really well with correct playstyle and setup.
I've seen many BIS or close to BIS fighters easily killed by much lower item lvl SWs and Rangers.
Rogues and prob Paladins just needs a rework to bring them on par with the rest and should also balance matches better once this is done. I believe tht is the missing element other than a somewhat ineffective matchmaking system tht is required.
I want to re iterate this again - Class balancing will never be perfect and each class will have its opinions on what they feel is true etc and thus its an never ending discussion.
The original post was to improve the PVP System and expand the player base which i think you do support and look at ways for pvp players to always have a pvp option available in order to earn rewards instead of running dungeons ..the rewards should be balanced so time vs effort are rewarded more or less equally.
Because there are alot of players that only want to pvp ... so there should be a system that allows this preference and reward accordingly.
PS ** i want to play my Rogue alot more but i don't cause i feel Rogue got the bad part of the deal with the new MOD and hope the devs adjust accordingly. IMO opinion some of the encounters, powers and feats/features should be switched around between Assassin and WK so it resembles more of what the WK and Executioner paragon paths looked like pre MOD 15 i think it was before it was all changed and also maybe buff mechanics like courage breaker again. Rogues was alot more fun to play before the new paragon paths were introduced. Most classes were improved with those changes imo except Rogues and Paladins i feel have lost out. cause Paladins had a DPS (Justice) path which was completely lost ..sadly
.. Remember Terry
I really think if the Rogue and OP are fixed the balance will be alot closer to where we wish for it to be - Lets hope !
Now about balance -- understanding balance in the current PvP state is very difficult because of the colossal skill gaps between players. How you perceive a class' balance is strongly dependent on who is playing said class. I would be hard pressed to make some sort of power rankings of classes because of this. What I'd say with confidence at this point is that GF is very overpowered because it has the tools to do literally everything and an extremely high base damage, SW brood of hadar daily is very overpowered and GWF seems to be in a bad shape. But then again, no offense, we don't have any good GWF players in PvP atm.
I read at some point that HR has the capability of killing any other class. If you were to match a highly skilled HR with another class played by someone of the same skill, that wouldn't be the case, except for maybe GWF and even a bigger maybe TR. Let's take Rookz (HR) for example. He was able to carry matches throughout the season and was doing well. This gave the impression that HR is in fact very strong and that's not true. That's just a player whose skill and experience are far above those of pretty much anyone else. If PvP had the players it had back in the premade days, he would have struggled. And on the same note, about GF not being the strongest class -- even Brutal already does very good. Now imagine we had an actual good GF. Then you'd see things. And this can be said for most classes.
Leaderboard placements and kda don't tell the whole story, they are in fact not that accurate. That's also because of some shady things players do such as throwing matches. Even being able to consistently "carry" matches is not that great of an indicator, because someone might play at a certain time of the season or day and get into low quality matches that are just filled by PvE players farming rewards. What classes are preferred by players is also not that indicative, since the overall player count is so low and a big part of the leaderboard are just alts.
Overall except for the few things I mentioned in the second paragraph, I'd rather not touch balance. Other things that will inevitably change the meta should be done first. And this goes back to the original post.
i would say HR SW GF and CW if all at BIS and played by equal skill they are pretty much on par and especially with the SC Armour enchant nerf tanky isnt tanky anymore anf thus all these classes bring certain match carrying/winning elements to the node.
IF a GF was a strong as you say 99/9% of the GFs in PVP would do alot better ...most are really terrible and have more deaths than kills , there are only 1 or 2 tht have good skills and play the class well. i myself play many classes and still pug it out on my GF.
Rogues were the one class tht can take care of GF pretty fast although other classes do well too but Rogues are underpowered atm so it seems GF is stronger atm and its not. If you know GF weaknesses its very easy to kill them.
You are correct , there aint very good players atm playing GWF , but Mangroth did well in the few macthes he played so yeah cant really tell
TR & OP need rework for sure and like i said would balance things out i believe ...
The fact is , i think if PVP doenst get proper attention soon , the game will keep loosing big portions of the player base which will be sad ...and i say this not because we have a big PVP players base ..we don't and i have explained the reasons but players will become bored of doing same pve content over and over and over and over and over and leave for more variety ... what the Neverwinter management team should realise is that there is still players like urself that has remained since the early days which shows there is still enough to just just keep those here ... a nice , well thought out and thoroughly tested PVP overhaul will definitely add the variety the game needs .
NO PVE player can complain if a whole mod is dedicated to PVP cause PVP has not received proper attention since those early days .
it would be only fair to rework and upgrade the PVP Engine.
Rogue may catch up some to ranger after I re-test a companion build, but I predict this will only shrink the gap some, not fully catch us up. Until my class gets better sustain or more damage, I can't see us fully catching up. But some of the environmental/meta variables the devs are changing over time will further shrink the gap.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
I appreciate that you tried to offer a positive message to the devs, they probably receive enough negative feedback from all players in this game to harm their motivation. But I don't want to give them the false impression that specific things improved when they actually got worse.
There is an issue with the dev's PVE mindset about rogue that is preventing them from doing much work on us or buffing us in any significant way. A while back, a dev said they feel rogue is where they would like all classes to be. They wanted to scale the other classes down to where rogue was. But all they ended up doing is making it so my class is going to just keep sliding further and further behind as time goes on while the devs fail to bring other classes to where we are. At this point, they need to abandon that plan and actually make changes to rogue like they do other classes, its less work for them to do it this way too.
They should probably abolish stealth loss upon taking damage if they want to help our sustain, this was supposed to have already happened in mod 16 when they changed stealth to only be slowed upon taking damage, but they left in the stealth loss upon taking damage by mistake and they still haven't fixed that. The base duration of our stealth recharge is also really long now compared to what it used to be set to before mod 16. We also need to no longer be as reliant on CA and crit sev to fill in for not having enough base damage.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
The reason I rank hunter 1st is because the support it contributes to team (group cc), its highest consistent damage among all classes, and mobility (to enter combat and leave combat fast). I feel it a little easier to win games as well as kill any other class in 1v1 on HR than GF (sure it will die more but not by too many times). In terms of 1v1, a good HR can almost 100% control other classes if enemies do not have shield or elven. Like literally can do 6 seconds control with eyes closing (with 25% ap daily first to gurantee daze) without being hit, then use marauders's escape to keep distance then wait for next rotation. If a HR pass certain "level" then should easily dominates most of all other classes with the "first control" advantage and do the rest of rotation without being quite touched. Hunter relie a lot on if you can do your rotation correctly, and once you pass certain level you can dominates most of the other classes. That is why many people call HR broken.
The hard time for HR comes if other players have ways to mitigate the "first control" advantage. For example against good GF, then it will require HR to predict well on other's power. Even against the most tanky GF which is just built for 1v1 good HR should still have advantage if can predict well, but that will rely a lot of your knowledge of other class and others' play habbit. I tried 1v1 with one of the best built and tanky GF and still killed him with a ratio of 2:1 in massive 1v1 test and the only death I get is because of his undogeble toad+ daily combo. The reason I can dominate that tanky GF is because I know too well about GF's timing. Against good GF it requires much more prediction, because HR is not able to make use of the"first control" advantage anymore and dies easily if have bad timing in dodging other's attack if control power are in cooldown. The other disadvantage is when HR get ganked 1v2, it can easily die if enemy has good burst because good HR usually build squishy for more offensive stats and to proc the ribcage stacks easier, but considering overall damage and team contribution HR should be ranked 1st in carrying team undoubtly, especially if HR pass certain level in its own knowledge.
GF ranked 2nd. It is very good in domination because It has 2nd best burst damage within 2 seconds frame to one rotate people which is just behind WK TR, as well as its ability to mitigate control power (with shield). It is very easy to dominates enemies if enemies dont have good timing, however against good players it requires very precise timing and movement. GF is easy to make people think it is easy to play but it is really not. To play decent is not hard but to dominates good players it is really not easy. The biggest advantage of GF is once you landed the initial control power you should one rotate most squishy classes within 2 seconds. Their consistent damage is good too but not that amazing especially if you build too tanky (encounter cooldown is around 10 seconds). Teammate support is a little bit lacking. A good GF rely a lot on initial control and predicting other's dodge time; Similarly to beat a GF it will rely a lot on your timing too. If GF miss their daily or first control encounter they can not really do much on other good players for quite a long time, so if others can predict GF well it will give GF very hard time. The highly skilled GF vs less skilled GF really makes a lot of difference against other good players. Most good players should dodge 80%+ of a bad GF's encounter and kill GF without taking much damage. Against a good GF it requires a lot on predicting and dodging the initial control power of GF. It is hard to fight 1v1 against a good GF if you just use the stamina blindly without counting cooldown time. However, GF is very hard to play because there is no way to mitigate burst damage especially when players with 3k magnitude mount ganking you; so a lot of time GF is like a punch bag on node. A good offensive GF need to kill enemies first before they punch you long enough to make you fall so your precision and timing determines how you perform. Since you can not mitigate burst damage, a lot of times your HP will be around 10%-20% when killing enemy, so GF needs to fight with pressure. GF has daily to regen the health but again it depends on if your can land your encounter following it and if you use too many of that daily you will miss a lot of damage and chance to one rotate enemy from your dps daily. I only know one GF in PS4 and one GF in xbox that performs really well. Most of the other GFs either builds tanky and cant help clear node at all, or are like glass-canon with bad timing to cast the combo.
CW is a little better than SW because of the mirage weapon+ constant cc encounter and at will, thats why they ranked top 3 among all classes, but in terms of burst damage they are not that strong as WK or GF. Some CW/SW use the bugged 700k heal mount and make them looks "tanky", so sometimes they give others hard time if you cant burst them down within a few seconds. Without the healing mount CW/SW is really easy to kill; WIth those "tanky" CW/SW, you need to one rotate them with mount first+daily, or bait them to use the heal first and turtle 10 seconds and then start the rotation.
TR doesn't have the best consistent damage especially on WK, but there is one advantage that no other class is even close, thats the burst damge within 2 seconds frame. a good TR should do about 1m+ damage to the most tanky healer when their daily+ mount power is ready; so TR's performance depends a lot on your teammates, if your teammates have enough consistent damage then TR can act as perfect "support" to kill the most tanky players or healer in enemy team (imagine the 5 minute middle node fight if both teams are tanky). However if team has no other good dps TR can't do much. If TR lose their only advantage of burst power then TR is basically useless, thats why I think WK>assasine in most cases. At least for me I feel a good WK gives me much more pressure than a good assasine. Assasine is kind of embrassing this season because it has decent consistant damage and burst damage but neither is too amazing.
To balance out all classes I would say significanly reduce the damage of HR and GF, nerf CW a little bit, reduce mount damage and fix the bugged heal mount, and ofc most importantly nerf healer significantly (healers please do not hate me), and keep all other class the same.
Completely revamp barbarian class and actually give us a proper mechanical dodge mechanic.
Stop giving hunters bonus damage vs players that are control immune.
Lower fighter combo potential somehow. There's no way they should just be able to turtle all day in a 1v1 then one rotate people with max defense.
Massively nerf mount magnitude damage..
Make pvp rewards worth playing more? Really great armor and weapons would be great.
PVP season store rewards have already been improved, so much in fact we are now getting issues with PVE farmers coming in on their undergeared characters to exploit them. The devs plan to replace these rewards in the future with transmutes.
There needs to be more dps coming from player powers or at least a reduction to healing in PVP before mount combat powers can be nerfed again sadly. But I agree combat powers for mounts are in a stupid place at moment.
Fighter needs to be nerfed, they can do everything great pretty much except heal allies.
That specific feature of ranger you mentioned probably isn't the part that needs to be targeted. Their cc does need to be fixed though along with several other classes' CCs, much of it goes through immunity frames/can't be dodged/constantly refreshes.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Fighter definitely is stronger than ranger and fighter has better tools than ranger does for winning matches. Not to say ranger isn't strong right now, it is, but equal skill fighter for sure would pass equal skill ranger with no issues. You already got past Razorleaf in like 4 days, I have no doubts whatsoever that a fighter at equal skill to Razorleaf would be impossible for him to overtake.
Assassin still wins more matches than an equivalent WK does. It was like this even last mod though that win gap was small enough you could fill in for it easily via other means. The gap between assassin and WK got wider in mod 20 now that rogue in general is less powerful and sustain became even more impactful for winning matches. Though both paths are still viable, assassin is better in a majority of matches this mod. It is likely WK is more budget friendly to make useful than assassin is.
I tried to run WK many times this season, but in most of those matches, I was forced back onto assassin because most of the time, my WK wasn't the right pick for the circumstances or would be unable to do much from constantly taking hits. WK due to its need to flee more and longer waits between rotations can't stick around to peel for teammates as much or apply pressure as often. WK last mod had such powerful damage that they could make up for the long wait between rotations a lot better than they can now. WK is still a bit better vs weaker pugs and will be playable in any match where your enemies don't attempt to apply pressure to you enough.
A good assassin when played right counters most WK types, all it takes is one assassin to put on dazing strike and spam at wills + using methods to find stealthed rogues. The type of WK that would hang on the longest vs this is the type running bait and switch and high speed, which is what you do. but this type of WK only seems to be good up to a point, to win past a certain point, you need something that can peel and apply pressure.
I sort of see your point for rogue burst dps in general, we are primarily an assist class this mod, but at least we are good at assisting. If anything is able to kill X unkillable thing at least once, its going to be a rogue. But we won't be able to repeat a hard kill like this often enough to make us more useful than having more consistent damage we can use more often like other classes have.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
I do agree with most of Stevens suggestions and will add my opinions below … no data available but gut feel
1) Ranger: reduction of -8-12% base damage
2) Fighter: reduction of -5 % base damage(AFTER SHADOOWCLAD NERF Fighters are not as effective as before and dying fast and alot .... Pls adjust the shield for slightly longer damage block/mitigation cause shield almost non existent in pvp and Gf have no other defenses like teleport or dodge etc
3) Wizard reduction of -5-8% base damage but increase of chill stacks and duration across all at-wills, encounters and class features (Wizards should control more but less damage)
4) Warlock: maybe a - 10% nerf on Daily which can hit for 800k+lol !
5) Rogue: increase of +10-15% increase on assassin at-wills , and + 5% on Encounters Increase stuns/slow mechanisms so that it does not get mitigated by the elven enchant as much as now , consider to add Dazing strike to Whisperknife
6) Cleric: Cleric should be killable if correct rotation and damage is applied , the current general immortality creates massive imbalances if only one team has cleric , adjust arbiter path so its has a fun viable DPS spec
7) Paladin - DPS spec/paragon path required
8) Barbarian +6-8% base damage increase and some defensive mechanism that if applied and timed correctly does mitigate some damage
These are estimates and a guess from playin class or facing them
There have bee so much interest in PVP lately but most players that do try PVP atm complains about the imbalance of matches and might end up standing around for a few matches in a row cause even from the start there was a GG"" and not much happened for 12 Minutes … This is obviously not ideal at all...
I really hope that at least the matchmaking system can be given some attention so that at least some margins can be adjusted to promote more balanced matches - Really the biggest crutch, deterrent and frustration in PVP
@nitocris83
just some food for thought ...to Chris & Team
How much money would it take to embark on a project to give PVP a generous rework ?
i was thinking , as you guys are very busy and we appreciate that really we do , i was thinking if experienced resource that has maybe worked with pvp game environments can come and assist and maybe the pvp community can try raise some funds to assist with costs if and where required ... Just throwing it out there , I mean everything I guess has a price tag and if a resource and funding can be obtained ...would such an option be considered ?
Some feedback would really be appreciated , so that our dreams might have some colors for a while .
Tanky builds are thing of the past ...
It seems tht SW HR and CW are prob strongest now in PVP if you take a skillful player and all at BIS
Warlocks are OP af at the moment ... The daily will kill basically any class or player
There are no fighters in leaderboard ... Go Figure !!!
Its really astonishing
> Yeah what was done to Fighter is horrible !!!!
>
> There are no fighters in leaderboard ... Go Figure !!!
>
> Its really astonishing
Yup same thing with barbs and SW for like 10 mods. Crazy eh?
It is likely that the skill cap for fighter did increase, but fighter still has all the tools to be the most powerful class when done well.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
As for dazing strike, I used to think WK needed that back as well, but after I actually started playing a WK, I realized WK has been changed too much for it to need this. Assassin does need access to dazing strike still, so would only want to see dazing strike given to WK if both paths got to use it.
The suggestion for ranger is quite frankly terrible though. The amount you suggested cutting is the same amount they gained from the shadowclad DR stacks fix, taking that away would be a step backwards and won't age well.
The undodgable refreshing CCs is the big thing that needs a fix really, I don't have a problem with ranger's damage, I just want to be able to put out similar consistent damage or be given enough burst not to need that.
From what I understand some of their current DPS is coming from involuntary class bugs though, these may need to be fixed and have their missing dps added back in a different way.
I have heard several fighters complain about the way their shield works, so maybe there is room for improvement there. However, fighter doesn't need to be made even stronger than it already is, if anything, they need to be able to do less things, they are a jack of all trades with basically no weak areas at the moment, which is why they often become OP in PVP.
Wizard I am out of the loop on exactly what it needs, but as someone on the receiving end of their control, I'm not sure adding more is a good idea, they just got a new prone power and the distance of their repel seems to have increased significantly. They are currently strong, but if they need anything right now, it would probably be fixes to core class issues and maybe more damage.
Warlock definitely should have their brood of hadar dps decreased, but needs to be a lot more than a measly 10%. Their daily brood of hadar currently does double the magnitude it is supposed to according to a recent bug report, it is currently doing almost 3k magnitude damage. The undodgable CC effect from this daily also needs to be fixed.
DPS warlock's self healing is also a bit OP and should be weakened or removed. In general, good self healing powers being available to dps paths or good dps powers being available to heal paths is just begging for PVP balance issues.
To prevent those 2 changes from being too much, devs could add a little bit more dps to their regular attacks.
Cleric is significantly stronger than the other 2 healers, not sure if they need a direct class nerf or if other 2 healers need to be brought up to their point, but healing in PVP in general is currently OP and needs to be toned down. All healing classes are really hard to kill right now too, its not just cleric.
DPS cleric should be really strong still, the combat rework on paper was favorable to them in PVP. It is possible they will turn out to be weaker than expected though, they don't have much CC.
I doubt devs would be willing to remove either paladin path to put back their dps path, though it is unfortunate that they no longer have that option. Paladin I'm not sure how to suggest buffing without making them cancerous again, their mechanics are pretty cheesy when they actually become strong. Best I can suggest is make their heal path competitive with cleric healer.
Barbarian probably does need a dps increase, their damage has similar issues as rogue only it seems to be even lower than that so far, long wait, not consistent. Barbarian is currently tanky as hell and probably doesn't need survivability buffs, they are easily among the hardest things to kill in PVP, part of that is how people on PC are used to building them but some of it is also class related.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
WK is now a lot closer to assassin in performance thanks to players being less tanky now, player quality going down even more this season, combined with some build improvements. There are a lot more matches you can safely run WK in this season than you could last season. It also shines in combination with other strong dps classes, in particular, a ranger working with a smokebomb welding WK is scary.
Assassin is something you can run 24/7 pretty much, there isn't a match you can't play an assassin for really, but there are still some matches where you can't run a WK.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC