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Why Scaling isn't hitting its intended goals
hypnotorious
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10 Arc User
Express goals of this system
Create a system where nobody can max their stats. Everyone needs to choose how to distribute their stats
Here, I'm talking about the stat contribution portion. Not the "other" portion, which is another layer of non-maxable stats
Full disclosure, I am a fan of the Inferred goal. I prefer a system where you have to specialize on a few stats/traits instead of being great at everything.
Ratio of stats to item level
Most gear gives 15 stats per item level. Each point of combined rating is contributing one point to each of the 15 stats. (Hit Points are a special case: they aren't part of the core 15 stats and they gain at a rate of 4:1)
This rate is applied evenly to the base stats for things like equipment, enchantments, runestones, insignia, most guild boons, etc.
Some things give Item Level while giving less than the standard 15:1 rate. I'll call them Out-of-Ratio Gear. Some, but not all, examples
It creates a stat sink. By increasing Item Level without commensurate stat increases, it becomes impossible to get all stats to their 50% cap.
The loss of stats is offset by the bonuses gained as well as a Base Damage increase given by improved Item Level. Even junk collars give a small dps boost in unscaled content.
This all works well, until you start scaling. Then it rapidly falls apart.
How scaling is handled
These items increase the gap between your stats and your item level. To optimize your stats, you need to reduce non-optimal stats to increase the most desirable stats.
For dps, this usually means sacrificing non-offensive stats and prioritizing some offensive stats over others to get your favourite stats capped to 50%.
End game builds have maxed out their Collars, Weapon and Armor Enchants, etc. As such, they have to make a lot of stat sacrifices for these benefits that lower geared players don't have to make. Without the benefit of the increased item level to offset the stat sacrifices, anyone being scaled down is losing dps compared to those who havent made those sacrifices. Most collars result in a net dps loss. Mount Attack Powers have very high ilvl which significantly reduces their effectiveness when capped.
A player has to either accept a loss of effectiveness in scaled content or run multiple down-geared and balanced builds for scaled content. This is contrary to second expressed goal.
Here's the kicker. Virtually everything is scaled. With the exception of Tower of the Mad Mage and Zariel: Master, every piece of content has a level cap, even the upcoming new dungeon is slated to launch with a 51k cap. Sure, that cap isn't a concern for the majority of players, myself included, but it is a concern for many.
Consistent scaling relies on a consistent ratio of stats. Having a mix of standard ratio items (equipment, enchants, etc) and off-ratio items (collars, mount attack powers, etc) simply cannot scale well.
Suggestion
If everything that gives item level gives the same ratio of stats and if all stat bonuses on equipment are replaced by "Other %" bonuses, scaling will be more consistent. If a 15:1 ratio is used, everyone would be able (with some effort) to balance all their stats to the 50% cap.
If a lower ratio is chosen, ie) 12:1, the players won't be able to cap everything, but scaling will still be smooth. However, this still results in the non-dps collars incurring a small penalty when down-scaled. Or, more accurately, a loss of the small gain when not scaled.
- Support scaling so that content is evergreen. As you gear up, new content becomes available and old content remains engaging
- Support scaling in a way that doesn't require different builds for down-scaled content. No removing gear to be competitive
Create a system where nobody can max their stats. Everyone needs to choose how to distribute their stats
Here, I'm talking about the stat contribution portion. Not the "other" portion, which is another layer of non-maxable stats
Full disclosure, I am a fan of the Inferred goal. I prefer a system where you have to specialize on a few stats/traits instead of being great at everything.
Ratio of stats to item level
Most gear gives 15 stats per item level. Each point of combined rating is contributing one point to each of the 15 stats. (Hit Points are a special case: they aren't part of the core 15 stats and they gain at a rate of 4:1)
This rate is applied evenly to the base stats for things like equipment, enchantments, runestones, insignia, most guild boons, etc.
Some things give Item Level while giving less than the standard 15:1 rate. I'll call them Out-of-Ratio Gear. Some, but not all, examples
- Companion Enhancement Power gives no stats (the purple hued item buff on the companion sheet)
- Collars give half their item level in stats
- Tenebrous enchantment gives 90% of it stats
- Mount Attack Powers give no stats
- Weapon and Armor enchants give no stats
- Gear with conditional stat bonuses give an out-of-ratio gain instead of loss (+2500 combat advantage when over 75% stamina, for example)
- These items offer a desirable bonus that offsets the lack of stats.
- The increase in item level increases base damage and Hit Points which further offsets the lack of stats.
It creates a stat sink. By increasing Item Level without commensurate stat increases, it becomes impossible to get all stats to their 50% cap.
The loss of stats is offset by the bonuses gained as well as a Base Damage increase given by improved Item Level. Even junk collars give a small dps boost in unscaled content.
This all works well, until you start scaling. Then it rapidly falls apart.
How scaling is handled
- The stat percentages on the character sheet are set. They don't change when you enter scaled content
- The item level cap for scaled content is used in place of your actual item level
- Item level is used to calculate Hit Points and Base Damage
These items increase the gap between your stats and your item level. To optimize your stats, you need to reduce non-optimal stats to increase the most desirable stats.
For dps, this usually means sacrificing non-offensive stats and prioritizing some offensive stats over others to get your favourite stats capped to 50%.
End game builds have maxed out their Collars, Weapon and Armor Enchants, etc. As such, they have to make a lot of stat sacrifices for these benefits that lower geared players don't have to make. Without the benefit of the increased item level to offset the stat sacrifices, anyone being scaled down is losing dps compared to those who havent made those sacrifices. Most collars result in a net dps loss. Mount Attack Powers have very high ilvl which significantly reduces their effectiveness when capped.
A player has to either accept a loss of effectiveness in scaled content or run multiple down-geared and balanced builds for scaled content. This is contrary to second expressed goal.
Here's the kicker. Virtually everything is scaled. With the exception of Tower of the Mad Mage and Zariel: Master, every piece of content has a level cap, even the upcoming new dungeon is slated to launch with a 51k cap. Sure, that cap isn't a concern for the majority of players, myself included, but it is a concern for many.
Consistent scaling relies on a consistent ratio of stats. Having a mix of standard ratio items (equipment, enchants, etc) and off-ratio items (collars, mount attack powers, etc) simply cannot scale well.
Suggestion
If everything that gives item level gives the same ratio of stats and if all stat bonuses on equipment are replaced by "Other %" bonuses, scaling will be more consistent. If a 15:1 ratio is used, everyone would be able (with some effort) to balance all their stats to the 50% cap.
If a lower ratio is chosen, ie) 12:1, the players won't be able to cap everything, but scaling will still be smooth. However, this still results in the non-dps collars incurring a small penalty when down-scaled. Or, more accurately, a loss of the small gain when not scaled.
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Comments
My suggestion is that players get a % in damage and HP when scaled, proportional to the difference in IL they have and the content they are scaled.
For example, a 50k IL character scaled to 40k IL content, should have 5% more dmg and 5% more hp than a 40k IL character.
The formula could be like this:
%dmg and HP gain = 0.0005 * (Character IL - Content IL)
For example a 50k IL character scaled to cloak tower (IL 6k) would do 22% more dmg and have 22% more HP
That constant could be adjusted with testing, but you get the idea.
This way, you dont penalize people to keep pushing their IL, and even if a 50k IL char will allways be stronger that a 6k char in that content, this way people feel the progression when doing old content after gear up and have better companions / mounts etc.
I get that new players have a bad experience in dungeons when they are grouped with end game players, they dont enjoy the dungeon. At minimum you can have a formula for dungeons (for example a constant of 0.0002) and another formula for regular / solo content (0.0005).
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If I'm lvl 80 in the tower district, I don't expect it to be engaging, I'm not there to relive the fight I had at lvl 10. If I want to relive it I'll start a new character.
And how they are trying to scale everything, it makes leveling pointless, it merly indicates time spent and some places require that you've played longer
I am a newer player that just started getting used to the pre-rework system. Now I watch as I play leveling content when I get a new item, my stats lower. This really breaks the original D&D feeling of progression and fun of finding that new piece of loot.
I need to ask those who know, is there a list of what the equivalent item levels were for leveling content before the combat re-work and a list to show what they were through all the patches? I am curious to note where the changes settle in comparison to what I was used to running in.
Don't misunderstand my post as a negative towards Neverwinter or Cryptic. The content is enjoyable and I really do not mind if leveling is more challenging - especially if it forces me to be less of a button masher but play smarter and utilize all my character's powers. I just want to have a sense of scope as to what it was before rework, to the blood bath immediately after, and to where it is expected going forward.
Caturday Survivor
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> Only certain areas with group content are scaled. If you go to Tower District as lvl 80 you will be immortal. Scaling is for dungeons and skirmishes and so on.
Really?? Only group content was ment to be scaled, then they screwed up even bigger than I originally thought... Or they went to make everything group content
The stat system is fundamentally flawed. As TIL keeps increases and as long as Total Combined Rating to TIL ratio is below 1, then the combined rating's contribution to stats will eventually fall below 0% because of the 50% - Max(0, [(TIL - Stat) / 1000]) formula.
For example, if the ratio of TCR to TIL is 0.75, at 50k TIL the base stats from CR is 37.5k. Which means that the character will have a base of 50% - [(50k - 37.5k)/ 1k] = 37.5%. However, with the same TCR:TIL ratio, at 75k, the character will have a base of 31.25%, at 100k it's 25%, and keeps going into the future until you get to 200k at which point CR adds 0% to you stats and everything will just be from the stats on gear. With the current system, as the character keeps getting "stronger", stats that are not included in his or her gear, will keep getting lower and lower, which means that DPS characters will keep getting squishier and squishier as the game progresses, and tanks will hit like wet noodles, and then tickle mobs with feathers, especially in scaled content where the TIL wont add to base damage or hp. It gets even more complicated as you try to think about whether increasing your item level will actually make you do more damage or not, or able to take more damage. You have to factor in the loss of % you'll get from increasing item level along with the increase to base damage and hp.
On the other hand, if the TCR to TIL ratio is 1 or greater, and gear at higher item levels keeps giving more ratings to a particular stat or stats, then it will eventually be possible to cap everything at 50%, which is not intended either. And if the TCR to TIL ratio is 1, and stats on higher item level gear remains constant as item level increases, the system is meaningless.
It's going to be increasingly difficult for the developers to create gear with the proper amount of stats so that players don't get too weak as item levels increase into the future.
What I think would be better is to just have everything give percentages, it would be very easy to understand, and doesn't have the problem of having a built in life span in the system. Increasing item level wouldn't mean that your stats get lower, and therefor wouldn't be a problem with scaling. What I have in mind is that the Quality of a "source" (ring, chest piece, companion bonus, etc) would determine the percentages granted to stats such that if a player had all gear at Common Quality, she would have the lowest available stat pool to allocate, and if all items where Mythic, she would have the highest available stat pool to allocate. Item Level would still contribute to Base Damage and HP. There would still be some incentive to use items of lower Item Level in some cases (or even of lower quality if a bonus is really good), but there would be a greater incentive to increase Item Level as well as Quality than in the current stat system.
As for scaling, what we have now isn't scaling, it's capping. Now, I don't mind running content that is more difficult, but I'd like it to be a choice. What I would prefer is a system that allows players to choose a difficulty rating and base rewards on that. The implementation could be capping, scaling up of critters, or down of players, or both, or whatever, I could care less about the implementation, as long as it was a choice, and was configurable (something like Ravenloft hunts and hardcore mode put together along with a slider to adjust scaling). I strongly disagree with Random Queues, and really don't like being capped in a random dungeon with random people. 4 out of 5 pug random dungeon queues that I've ran since the system launched have been abandoned and I feel like I need to spend 20 million AD on companions, just to complete ToNG (and then what if I want to play a different character?).
I don't have a perfect solution for scaling, I've put out the idea to scale the difference between the content level and TIL as @darthpotater said, but even then, that's not perfect because far into the future players will still be too strong. If you put it on a logarithmic curve, it might as well be capping, so I don't know what the perfect solution is to scaling, but capping isn't it. Content should get easier as a player progresses, and if a player wants a piece of content to be more difficult, then they should have the option to do so, and be rewarded more for it. For example, the rewards could be inversely scaled with the players item level and content level such that at the maximum difficulty, they get the most reward, and if they progress further, they get less reward from that content unless they dial up the difficulty level to get close to 1:1.
I'm root'n for ya guys @noworries#8859 @cwhitesidedev#9752
If someone has to remove or lower their IL to perform better, the system has fundamentally failed.
If getting better gear with higher IL and stats doesn't allow the character to perform better, the system has fundamentally failed.
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I can only speak for the RDQ's so far, but what I've seen after a dozen runs or so is very encouraging. Teamwork is back. Everybody on the team matters now, no matter the level. Tanks matter. Healers matter. If you try to be a lone ranger superstar you get punished. I would say that right now the scaling system works for the normal basic RDQ.
The other queues and other content might be completely borked and terrible, though. I've heard a lot of horror stories. I'm not inclined to just dismiss the horror stories out of hand just because I've had numerous good experiences in the lesser content.
Looks like all it is doing is nerfing your HP & Damage - so having high IL actually punishes you. How is that different than the old system where people just dropped half their gear to become more powerful in scaled content? It more and more looks like the same thing will apply in this new system - drop all collars/ drop all enchantments and you may actually get stronger.
If that's the case then the least we can ask for is to make it free to unequip enchants.
I would have expected that in scaled content, my hard work to improve my character would pay off. So, now that all my stats are over 40K - when I go into scaled content that is lower than 40K I expect all these stats to just get the orange colour and I'll be at 50% base on all stats. (Isn't that what cap is for?)
That's just one suggestion; any other scaling formula like some of the ones suggested above would be good as well.
Leaving it as it is really doesn't make much sense in my view.
I laughed at your statement, because scaling didn't really change anything about the queues. Still, if you are alone and grouped with noobs, you can't get anything done.. Even though they've been equaled in stats and damage to "demigods", noobs remain noobs. Tank-noob doesn't tanks because he can't and falls like a rag doll. Healer-noob doesn't heal because he doesn't know how. DPS-noob doesn't do damage..
The queue must be at least two people who know how to play. By trial and error, the best option turned out to be good tank + dps.
And no amount of nerfs and scaling will change that truth.
Random queues now are pain and agony.
To a much greater extent than before.
You wouldn't happen to play a DPS, would you?
Wouldn't the correct (and probably INTENDED - going from Cryptic's own statements) thing be for players to scale down but not have to swap gear so you'd keep everything in place but still find the dungeon challenging enough to require proper teamwork?
If you don't find yourself having to swap gear, maybe you can let us know your IL, Class and if you actually play endgame dungeons? Your comments indicate you only play the lower versions - if that is the case it means you can run with cheapo gear and never experience the problems many others are having?
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Look at what you quoted. I don't think I could have been any more clear, and still.... here we are again. LOL
As such, you are not experiencing the full spectrum of how the changes are impacting segments of the broader player base and your feedback/comments are based on a very narrow perspective.
This is interesting as you appear to dismiss opinions put forward by players who are having issues that you haven't come across (due to IL etc) based on nothing more than your limited experience.
Of course you don't have an issue with stats jumping all over the place because you have yet to experience it! Try projecting yourself into the mindset of those it's happening to (it's called empathy)
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I wrote: The other queues and other content might be completely borked and terrible, though. I've heard a lot of horror stories. I'm not inclined to just dismiss the horror stories out of hand just because I've had numerous good experiences in the lesser content.
How am I being dismissive of other people's experiences?
Look, we're having a communication breakdown and we're getting off-topic a little bit. I have the sense that you are not really letting yourself say anything good about the patch, which is fine. I know full well it's "be negative or get flamed" for the most part on the forums right now, but the truth -- the absolute truth -- is that this patch is not 100% bad. That's a fact. From what I've seen leveling a barb and now just getting to 80 with a healer cleric, this patch is like maybe 10% bad so far, tops. And most of that 10% that I have seen is just because of Mt Hotenow being out of whack... and that area can be skipped. I don't quite trust the devs to ever fix it anytime soon.
Back on topic: I can vouch for the normal RDQ scaling. There's no need to be hyper-dialed in for that content, you just have to play your role somewhat coherently and you'll be fine. When I start healing the harder stuff, things might be different.
That's exactly what I'm seeing. I may be fairly new - but I busted my a** and invested some money getting geared up - and now I'm at 50K IL.
What good does that do me when I enter scaled content and have the exact amount of HP & Damage as players who have 20K IL lower than me? I get the worst of it since my base stats percentage is compared to my high IL which conveniently remained unscaled.
I hope very much that some of this will get addressed.
Is this ONLY in endgame stuff that you are having this issue? In other words, when you are comparing yourself to other players with lower TIL, are these also 80's like yourselves with 25k+ TIL?
Assuming "yes" to the above, could the OP's math on "out of ratio" gear be exactly why you are having these problems? Meaning you have all tricked out stuff like maxed mount collars, mount attack powers, weapon and armor enchants, etc. (look at the list in the first post) and having these on basically is a self-nerf? Could you take the "out of ratio" gear off and perform better, essentially proving the original poster's hypothesis?
If so, let's make a case to the devs for real. It doesn't make sense to have all this expensive extra sparkly stuff actually nerfing you instead making things better, does it? We can do more than complain if this is the case. If we have data that proves this, that's different than random forum whining. You guys with 50k can make really good test subjects for this. I have like one green mount collar --> I'm not really going to be much help. lol
ilvl = dmg and hp, but without stats its just shiny nothing
very nice post - OP is op
On a different note, if someone is a very powerful character in a DPS role, you probably shouldn't expect to take over the tank role even from a low level actual tank in CT, for example. I have seen DPS lvl 80 warlocks get eaten alive by the trash mobs because they ran ahead of the group, pulled all the aggro on themselves thinking that they are immortal because of their TIL, and then I am once again trying to save them with dedicated heals when the rest of us catch up to them. LOL If you aren't a tank, don't try to be a tank. Yes, even in Cloak Tower. I'm not saying this is you, greywynd... I'm just relaying what I've seen happen more than once. Sometimes it's a rogue, sometimes it's a warlock or ranger. But it happens more than rarely that a DPS thinks he can be a tank, and the new system punishes them. I'm pretty sure that's not a bug, and exactly what the developers had in mind.
If a tank can't tank, that's something else entirely.
edit:
Hmm. We decided to check specifically Cloak Tower to see if anything has changed in combat that would cause the need for an entire pt. Well, nope. Mobs, yes they are like everywhere with annoying CA and disproportionate damage, but you can use your disliked warlock to get in front of a tank and survive